I am happy to be wrong about this.  I'm glad they are updating the sound, at least that's the impression I get from your post.  Kudos to Lionel to take care of this.

Marty

 

Below the Signature...

"You should have bought a train."

 

John Rowlen posted:

So,  you are saying Lionel has the ability to change the sound files?

How do they run and sound now?  Can you make a video with sound?  Thanks.

John

Not only that, did they un-sync the driver sets between the front engine and the rear engine? 

romiller49 posted:

You may get the sync sounds but since only one smoke unit I’ll bet you won’t get the sync smoke. Hopefully a video with the fixed sound will help people decide on sync sound or sync smoke. I would be happy with either if I could own one. 

First of the smoke stack do not operate independently on the real challenger so not sure what your point is with sync smoke. I have the vision line Big Boy I wish I could turn off that feature because it is not realistic. The fact that people are happy to own it with the wrong sounds is exactly why there was no post from Lionel stating outright they would fix them. Not sure how people can drop this kind of cash and not push the manufacturer to fix their mistakes. Tolerance is only acceptable when it does not affect my wallet. 

Shawn Chronister

Alabama Joe posted:

I actually owned my VisionLine Challengers for an hour and a half before they went back to Lionel.     I appreciate Lionel adding the Articulated Sounds.     E319ACE6-1643-48FA-9F2D-67BDB08B30FA

I couldn’t even get a call back from service and I was polite and everything.   Maybe i’ll Try again 

C & O-Scalers

LCCA  member

LOTS  member

Appalachian Model Railroad Society

Chesapeake & Ohio Historical Society

 

In my world there is a cold beer and vision big boy for everyone.

I will probably leave my 1931250 Greyhound Challenger #3977 synced to the smoke as manufactured, but I reserve the right to change my mind once I see a video of the un-synced Challenger.

Will the new Big Boy have the same synced drivers?  I see no mention of alternating smoke puffs.  My original Vision Line Big Boys retailed for $2,999.00, significantly more than the newest version being advertised.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

I called on Tuesday ((Monday’s are bad) and waited a short time.    Katie took the call and as usual, pleasant and an easy transaction to get the RA.    Lionel paid for shipping.    I think Lionel is being responsible  and making it right.    I for one appreciate what Lionel is doing.   

sahan posted:

I sent Lionel an email asking them if they could change the sound and if they could update my one and it's been 5 days and no reply. I sent it to talktous@lionel.com. Is that correct? if not what would be the correct email?

Don’t feel too bad, I sent an E-Mail to them over a week ago & no reply either! Deane of Lionel says all over this Forum:  If you have any questions, to send an E-Mail , but when you do , you get NO response !! Don’t get it & probably never will how they can operate this way!!!

Fredstrains 

Shawn_Chronister posted:
romiller49 posted:

You may get the sync sounds but since only one smoke unit I’ll bet you won’t get the sync smoke. Hopefully a video with the fixed sound will help people decide on sync sound or sync smoke. I would be happy with either if I could own one. 

First of the smoke stack do not operate independently on the real challenger so not sure what your point is with sync smoke. I have the vision line Big Boy I wish I could turn off that feature because it is not realistic. The fact that people are happy to own it with the wrong sounds is exactly why there was no post from Lionel stating outright they would fix them. Not sure how people can drop this kind of cash and not push the manufacturer to fix their mistakes. Tolerance is only acceptable when it does not affect my wallet. 

On the VL Big Boy you can turn off that feature in the address assigning portion of the set up.  It will actually ask you the question.

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

Fredstrains posted:
sahan posted:

I sent Lionel an email asking them if they could change the sound and if they could update my one and it's been 5 days and no reply. I sent it to talktous@lionel.com. Is that correct? if not what would be the correct email?

Don’t feel too bad, I sent an E-Mail to them over a week ago & no reply either! Deane of Lionel says all over this Forum:  If you have any questions, to send an E-Mail , but when you do , you get NO response !! Don’t get it & probably never will how they can operate this way!!!

Fredstrains 

They can operate this way because people keep accepting the incorrect stuff they put out, do not question it.  As well as not calling saying hey I sent an email you tell us to send an email and do not respond.  

Shawn Chronister

Shawn_Chronister posted:
Fredstrains posted:
sahan posted:

I sent Lionel an email asking them if they could change the sound and if they could update my one and it's been 5 days and no reply. I sent it to talktous@lionel.com. Is that correct? if not what would be the correct email?

Don’t feel too bad, I sent an E-Mail to them over a week ago & no reply either! Deane of Lionel says all over this Forum:  If you have any questions, to send an E-Mail , but when you do , you get NO response !! Don’t get it & probably never will how they can operate this way!!!

Fredstrains 

They can operate this way because people keep accepting the incorrect stuff they put out, do not question it.  As well as not calling saying hey I sent an email you tell us to send an email and do not respond.  

Wow...!!  So how are Jacob Marley, Bob Cratchit, and Tiny Tim these days....  just get out of the hobby...  you’ve obviously had enough.

Regards,

Byron Hathaway

NPOG Member

 

"Go as far as you can see.  When you get there, you'll be able to see further."

- Thomas Carlyle

I thought I would step in after just getting off the phone with Katie at Lionel.  Yes they will give you and RMA to send the units in.  Katie told me that they will just change the sounds (whatever that means).  They do nothing mechanically to the drivers to the best of her knowledge.  Part of me does not want to go through the hassle, but the other part of me will regret no action after a couple of years.  Well my Challenger will be going to Concord to keep my ALCOs company.

The plus side is that Lionel stepped up to the plate on my 2 issues.  They even cover the shipping.  This is not a hassle free hobby .

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

BHalfway posted:
Shawn_Chronister posted:
Fredstrains posted:
sahan posted:

I sent Lionel an email asking them if they could change the sound and if they could update my one and it's been 5 days and no reply. I sent it to talktous@lionel.com. Is that correct? if not what would be the correct email?

Don’t feel too bad, I sent an E-Mail to them over a week ago & no reply either! Deane of Lionel says all over this Forum:  If you have any questions, to send an E-Mail , but when you do , you get NO response !! Don’t get it & probably never will how they can operate this way!!!

Fredstrains 

They can operate this way because people keep accepting the incorrect stuff they put out, do not question it.  As well as not calling saying hey I sent an email you tell us to send an email and do not respond.  

Wow...!!  So how are Jacob Marley, Bob Cratchit, and Tiny Tim these days....  just get out of the hobby...  you’ve obviously had enough.

Look I am calling it like it is as I have said before they claim this is the gold standard of there product and it was $1800 of my money. I purchased this engine based on the level of standard they claim it suppose to be and not being a scrooge just holding the manufacturer to there end of the bargain. How can you like my post and then call me a scrooge? 

Shawn Chronister

Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:

I thought I would step in after just getting off the phone with Katie at Lionel.  Yes they will give you and RMA to send the units in.  Katie told me that they will just change the sounds (whatever that means).  They do nothing mechanically to the drivers to the best of her knowledge.  Part of me does not want to go through the hassle, but the other part of me will regret no action after a couple of years.  Well my Challenger will be going to Concord to keep my ALCOs company.

The plus side is that Lionel stepped up to the plate on my 2 issues.  They even cover the shipping.  This is not a hassle free hobby .

I was very critical of Lionel when they issue was first uncovered, I was however respectful about it though.   Lionel has stepped up to correct any issues I've ever had and then some.   I've heard some horror stories but my experiences have been good other than them not returning my call on this very issue.  I will try again today and see where it goes. 

C & O-Scalers

LCCA  member

LOTS  member

Appalachian Model Railroad Society

Chesapeake & Ohio Historical Society

 

In my world there is a cold beer and vision big boy for everyone.

John Rowlen posted:

Will the new Big Boy have the same synced drivers?  I see no mention of alternating smoke puffs.  My original Vision Line Big Boys retailed for $2,999.00, significantly more than the newest version being advertised.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

What I get from the whole saga of the current VL Challengers is that if an operating feature is not specifically cataloged don’t assume anything about it being included. The BBs in the latest catalog are not described as having the alternating smoke output feature and are not VL offerings. The operating feature set generally is more limited than the VL BBs (which is directly reflected in the MSRP) so I can’t imagine they include alternating smoke.

BTW, the MSRP/catalog price of the VL BBs was $2,699 and only in the aftermarket did they go for $2,999 (or more). 

Shawn_Chronister posted:
BHalfway posted:
Shawn_Chronister posted:
Fredstrains posted:
sahan posted:

I sent Lionel an email asking them if they could change the sound and if they could update my one and it's been 5 days and no reply. I sent it to talktous@lionel.com. Is that correct? if not what would be the correct email?

Don’t feel too bad, I sent an E-Mail to them over a week ago & no reply either! Deane of Lionel says all over this Forum:  If you have any questions, to send an E-Mail , but when you do , you get NO response !! Don’t get it & probably never will how they can operate this way!!!

Fredstrains 

They can operate this way because people keep accepting the incorrect stuff they put out, do not question it.  As well as not calling saying hey I sent an email you tell us to send an email and do not respond.  

Wow...!!  So how are Jacob Marley, Bob Cratchit, and Tiny Tim these days....  just get out of the hobby...  you’ve obviously had enough.

Look I am calling it like it is as I have said before they claim this is the gold standard of there product and it was $1800 of my money. I purchased this engine based on the level of standard they claim it suppose to be and not being a scrooge just holding the manufacturer to there end of the bargain. How can you like my post and then call me a scrooge? 

The “like” was a slip of the thumb... it was immediately unliked but I guess the email sent anyway...  I appreciate that Lionel has done right by us with the fix.  Period!  From a source who has internal contacts I understand that they really tried to ensure everything was perfect with this one.   Unfortunately they just missed this detail and I can see how that might happen if they are so focused on all the mechanicals, operating system and visuals.  It’s not as if it didn’t have sound at all...  I’m truly just sick of all the whining and complaining about every little thing...  if you can’t go with the flow of something that now has a resolution then just get out and save us all the agony of reading the droning on and on of negativity... Please!

Regards,

Byron Hathaway

NPOG Member

 

"Go as far as you can see.  When you get there, you'll be able to see further."

- Thomas Carlyle

BHalfway posted:
Shawn_Chronister posted:
BHalfway posted:
Shawn_Chronister posted:
Fredstrains posted:
sahan posted:

I sent Lionel an email asking them if they could change the sound and if they could update my one and it's been 5 days and no reply. I sent it to talktous@lionel.com. Is that correct? if not what would be the correct email?

Don’t feel too bad, I sent an E-Mail to them over a week ago & no reply either! Deane of Lionel says all over this Forum:  If you have any questions, to send an E-Mail , but when you do , you get NO response !! Don’t get it & probably never will how they can operate this way!!!

Fredstrains 

They can operate this way because people keep accepting the incorrect stuff they put out, do not question it.  As well as not calling saying hey I sent an email you tell us to send an email and do not respond.  

Wow...!!  So how are Jacob Marley, Bob Cratchit, and Tiny Tim these days....  just get out of the hobby...  you’ve obviously had enough.

Look I am calling it like it is as I have said before they claim this is the gold standard of there product and it was $1800 of my money. I purchased this engine based on the level of standard they claim it suppose to be and not being a scrooge just holding the manufacturer to there end of the bargain. How can you like my post and then call me a scrooge? 

The “like” was a slip of the thumb... it was immediately unliked but I guess the email sent anyway...  I appreciate that Lionel has done right by us with the fix.  Period!  From a source who has internal contacts I understand that they really tried to ensure everything was perfect with this one.   Unfortunately they just missed this detail and I can see how that might happen if they are so focused on all the mechanicals, operating system and visuals.  It’s not as if it didn’t have sound at all...  I’m truly just sick of all the whining and complaining about every little thing...  if you can’t go with the flow of something that now has a resolution then just get out and save us all the agony of reading the droning on and on of negativity... Please!

Couldn't agree more. 

C & O-Scalers

LCCA  member

LOTS  member

Appalachian Model Railroad Society

Chesapeake & Ohio Historical Society

 

In my world there is a cold beer and vision big boy for everyone.

I didn't hear that Lionel decided to add the articulated sounds, that's pretty cool.  I think I'd be tempted to just send back the sound boards for the upgrade to avoid potential shipping damage sending the whole locomotive.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I didn't hear that Lionel decided to add the articulated sounds, that's pretty cool.  I think I'd be tempted to just send back the sound boards for the upgrade to avoid potential shipping damage sending the whole locomotive.

Is that an offer for making that happen Johnny?  😜

Regards,

Byron Hathaway

NPOG Member

 

"Go as far as you can see.  When you get there, you'll be able to see further."

- Thomas Carlyle

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I didn't hear that Lionel decided to add the articulated sounds, that's pretty cool.  I think I'd be tempted to just send back the sound boards for the upgrade to avoid potential shipping damage sending the whole locomotive.

Wish we all had that option.  Must be nice to be in the in crowd.  Oh well, it will work out I'm sure.  I wish it was as easy as sending a board in, but I was not given the option.  The packaging is good and it is a solid engine without a bunch of details hanging by a wire.  Should be fine.

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

BHalfway posted:
gunrunnerjohn posted:

I didn't hear that Lionel decided to add the articulated sounds, that's pretty cool.  I think I'd be tempted to just send back the sound boards for the upgrade to avoid potential shipping damage sending the whole locomotive.

Is that an offer for making that happen Johnny?  😜

My services are always available at a reasonable price.

I think it's unbelievable in this day and age that you have to actually ship something back to have sounds reloaded. Who the heck would think that's a good idea? I've been watching DCC vids lately on YouTube and man oh man Lionel is so far behind on tech it's gross.

At least you can turn the markers off I guess. 

Norm Charbonneau posted:

I think it's unbelievable in this day and age that you have to actually ship something back to have sounds reloaded. Who the heck would think that's a good idea? 

It's even more unbelievable that they couldn't get the sounds right the first time.

Especially considering they were correct on the original VL challenger.

The phrase, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it",comes to mind

" No matter how far we travel, the memories will follow in the baggage car."

So are you saying that all Challengers need to go back to Lionel to fix the sound files? Mine was just delivered and I don't plan to unpack it if that's the case. 

 

Please advise

 

 

TCA, METCA, LCCA, LRRC, MTHRRC, Atlas Golden Spike Club Charter Member, Bergen County Model RRC and NJ HiRailers Member.

 

If you haven't checked out the new NJ HiRailers website please do. Go to the "Photos" page to see galleries of our events and check the "What's New" page periodically to see what we've added.

 

 

 

Without knowing what went wrong and where, we could speculate about this all year long.  It could have been spec'd correctly and an uncaught error made down the process but we'll never know unless Lionel says what happened.  Yes it stinks to have to return it but it does seem like Lionel is stepping up. I'm not sure if Dean's hair could get any grayer.  LOL!    I'm sure he's doing his best.  

Marty

 

Below the Signature...

"You should have bought a train."

 

Sadly, with the design of the sound and RCMC boards, there doesn't seem any way to do uploads to the boards directly.  Of course, that would also imply that Lionel would release the code to do such uploads, I think that's one sticking point.

Also I'm guessing, from looking at the RS-Lite board, there isn't enough RAM on the board to buffer the upload and then write to the FLASH.  In addition, the serial link is only 3K BPS, so it would take a really long time to upload a significantly sized sound file.  For a 1 MB file, it would take 55 minutes to load assuming you had the full 3K bandwidth available, in truth there is always quite a bit of overhead, so the time would be significantly greater.  Next, the TMCC/Legacy interface is a uni-directional interface, so there is no possibility of knowing if the upload succeeded, you have have to do the entire upload and then see if the sound file passed the check on the other end.

Bottom line, I don't see uploading as practical given the design of the TMCC/Legacy operating environment.

However, if Lionel sees fit to give me the code, I could probably program them.

Norm Charbonneau posted:

I think it's unbelievable in this day and age that you have to actually ship something back to have sounds reloaded. Who the heck would think that's a good idea? I've been watching DCC vids lately on YouTube and man oh man Lionel is so far behind on tech it's gross.

At least you can turn the markers off I guess. 

I’m sure Lionel is aware of that but it’s simply too late to do anything about it. The two main players were so busy trying to out do the other that they could not vision the direction the hobby was going. 

Rod Miller

The amazing thing is that they apparently had the Challengers apart to fix another issue, likely the RCMC forgetting it's ID.  At that point, it would have been easy to simply program the sound boards with all of the units in hand!  Now it's a whole other round of unpacking, taking stuff apart, programming, putting it together, and then packing it again!

MartyE posted:

Without knowing what went wrong and where, we could speculate about this all year long.  It could have been spec'd correctly and an uncaught error made down the process but we'll never know unless Lionel says what happened.

I remember back in the "Mike Regan  era", Lionel had a "Quality Control Inspector" over there in China.  So,,,,what happened to him, and why wasn't this reported "sound mistake" found by that "Inspector", over in China prior to any models even being packed? 

  Yes it stinks to have to return it but it does seem like Lionel is stepping up. I'm not sure if Dean's hair could get any grayer.  LOL!    I'm sure he's doing his best.  

 

Too late to do anything about it, yet they sat in the warehouse for weeks. They were shipped anyway because Lionel knew most people will just accept them as is. As proof right here, many people have just accepted the mistake of screwing up something that had already been done before!

 

Bottom line, you're stuck with what Lionel decides to put in there. Lionel has a history of unpleasant surprises when it comes to sounds in their high end engines. I have a JLC Allegheny and Legacy Big Boy with whatever random whistle file was available at the time. It's a bit strange when their Lionmaster or Flyer offerings have more correct sound features. They had the edge up until maybe 15 years ago with reliable command control and sounds that had an easy to use interface. The aftermarket at the time picked up the slack with upgrade parts but now they are so far behind the curve. Seems like they just dumbed their stuff down to appeal to boomers and toddlers and no one in between. I was watching a random Loksound vid and the dude was demoing 16 different whistles! 16!  

 

Wow...!!  So how are Jacob Marley, Bob Cratchit, and Tiny Tim these days....  just get out of the hobby...  you’ve obviously had enough.

Possibly one of the worst quotes on this Forum...of all time.

If you and the two people who liked that post want to just sit back and accept sub-standard or misrepresented product from Big Orange, that's your prerogative.

Others simply expect that a premium price bring a premium product.

Hot Water posted:
I remember back in the "Mike Regan  era", Lionel had a "Quality Control Inspector" over there in China.  So,,,,what happened to him, and why wasn't this reported "sound mistake" found by that "Inspector", over in China prior to any models even being packed?”

That was said years ago and not to put too fine a point on it I remember being skeptical. Anyway it does not seem that the effect of what was done was lasting. But I think it has to be borne in mind that Lionel’s product range is pretty vast and although I’d expect the higher range products to get more scrutiny than starter sets, catching every fault is well nigh impossible. In various posts on this Forum over recent years Scott Mann has detailed the practical issues with QC in China and they are daunting. More recently we hear that Chinese factories are not permitting on site inspections, which hardly makes an importer’s life an easy one.

Less charitably, the spec at Lionel’s US end has to be right for the factory to execute it according to its terms. Either this engine was spec’d with articulated sounds or it wasn’t.

Norm Charbonneau posted:

Bottom line, you're stuck with what Lionel decides to put in there. Lionel has a history of unpleasant surprises when it comes to sounds in their high end engines. I have a JLC Allegheny and Legacy Big Boy with whatever random whistle file was available at the time. It's a bit strange when their Lionmaster or Flyer offerings have more correct sound features. They had the edge up until maybe 15 years ago with reliable command control and sounds that had an easy to use interface. The aftermarket at the time picked up the slack with upgrade parts but now they are so far behind the curve. Seems like they just dumbed their stuff down to appeal to boomers and toddlers and no one in between. I was watching a random Loksound vid and the dude was demoing 16 different whistles! 16!”

Years ago when Lionel was first in HO they produced a DCC Veranda Turbine with the most spectacularly realistic sounds I have ever heard from a model engine; I think that they were done by QSI. I’ve never understood why Lionel could not put similar sounds in the O Gauge Veranda Turbine they issued at roughly the same time, which is otherwise one of their finest model diesels ever (IMHO). But judging by what is said above and in particular by GRJ it seems to be a system limitation. Behind the curve indeed.

Berkshire President posted:

So....is the fix just an upgrade to the sound file to include Articulated Sounds....but no change to the position of the drive wheels?

Mine arrived yesterday but I haven't opened it up yet.

Exactly what I was told from Lionel Customer Service (Katie). " Fix sound, do not touch wheels".  Pretty clear to me.  By the way, she said it would take about 48 hours to get the email with label.  4 week turn around at this point.  Still fixing stuff that came in before the move.

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

Berkshire President posted:
 

Wow...!!  So how are Jacob Marley, Bob Cratchit, and Tiny Tim these days....  just get out of the hobby...  you’ve obviously had enough.

Possibly one of the worst quotes on this Forum...of all time.

If you and the two people who liked that post want to just sit back and accept sub-standard or misrepresented product from Big Orange, that's your prerogative.

What’s that Walter Matthau....?!?

I DO expect a premium product!  Especially for the price!!  But I’m not going to continue to subject the members of this forum to continued whining about what’s happened... especially when the fix has been announced.  It’s a hobby... not a life-determining surgical operation.  

Regards,

Byron Hathaway

NPOG Member

 

"Go as far as you can see.  When you get there, you'll be able to see further."

- Thomas Carlyle

Call Lionel and get an RMA.  They will change your sounds.  They won't do anything with the drivers.  I called this morning, got an RMA (will be emailed to me in the next 24 hours), was told it would take 4 weeks and they are still working on work prior to the move.  They will even pay for shipping.  A bit of a hassle, but better than being told "too bad".

Seriously, for what it is worth, I have a high performance Acela set with the add-on car and will offer anyone a fair even trade if they choose not to keep their Challenger.  Email is in my profile.

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

Byron:  Kudos for the Grumpy Old Men reference....and I do have some Lake Erie walleye for you....but I won't stick it in your car without letting you know first.

FWIW, there is a difference between simply complaining.....and the purchasers of a product voicing their displeasure in said product b/c it didn't meet their expectations.  Expectations, I might add, that are simply based on a prior run from the same manufacturer.

When you have skin in the game, you're not just a complainer.  You're an end user commenting on the product in question.  In this case, it's an expensive product....that we had to wait for and agreed to purchase sight unseen. 

To the extent that I've waited so long for my 3985, my anticipation built over time.   (I even bought a JLC 4014 in the interim.)  When that anticipation is met with less than expected results, disappointment sets in.

Fortunately, Big Orange appears to be making this right....or at least giving one the option of going down that path.  I feel that, eventually, I'll have the locomotive that I wanted when I ordered it.  I may have to send it back for a sound upgrade and then manually change the position of the front drivers....but I'll have my VL UP 3985 without smoke deflectors....that I can run with my first Legacy version 844 and JLC Big Boy.

Here's my input on the topic.

I personally haven't bought one of the Vision Challengers, so keep in mind my view is from the outside looking in.

Technically speaking, assuming all of the Challengers came with the two sets of drivers in sync, then the sound would be prototypical. If they were to come with the drivers in sync, but with the sounds out of sync, that would not be prototypical. For those who are arguing that in-sync drivers on an articulated wouldn't stay in sync for long (because of wheelslip, vibrations, etc), then to model the physical drivers going out of sync on these engines, you are asking for something that simply isn't easily do-able on a model train with traction tires.

I'm certain that as soon as folks who sent their engines in get them back, some will be whining about the fact that they didn't rotate one of the driver sets to match the sound set. Like Bryant said above, Lionel will not touch the wheels. My suggestion is, if you want articulated sounds so badly, and also want the drivers out of sync, take the risk and send the engine into Lionel and get the new sound set, and then (carefully) adjust the drivers yourself, although you will void the warranty by doing this. There's a tutorial on YouTube!

I hate bashing on manufacturers and on other forum members, and it appears that this is exactly what this thread has devolved into. There is no such thing as perfection. Many people in this hobby worry too much.

Now go run some trains.

Nick

Part-time Ferroequinologist

Pennsy Productions - Bringing you the best railroads of the Midwest

“It’s a good thing to let another generation know what a steam locomotive is.” - W. Graham Claytor, Jr.

TrainMan1225 posted:

Here's my input on the topic.

I personally haven't bought one of the Vision Challengers, so keep in mind my view is from the outside looking in.

Technically speaking, assuming all of the Challengers came with the two sets of drivers in sync, then the sound would be prototypical. If they were to come with the drivers in sync, but with the sounds out of sync, that would not be prototypical. For those who are arguing that in-sync drivers on an articulated wouldn't stay in sync for long (because of wheelslip, vibrations, etc), then to model the physical drivers going out of sync on these engines, you are asking for something that simply isn't easily do-able on a model train with traction tires.

I'm certain that as soon as folks who sent their engines in get them back, some will be whining about the fact that they didn't rotate one of the driver sets to match the sound set. Like Bryant said above, Lionel will not touch the wheels. My suggestion is, if you want articulated sounds so badly, and also want the drivers out of sync, take the risk and send the engine into Lionel and get the new sound set, and then (carefully) adjust the drivers yourself, although you will void the warranty by doing this. There's a tutorial on YouTube!

I hate bashing on manufacturers and on other forum members, and it appears that this is exactly what this thread has devolved into. There is no such thing as perfection. Many people in this hobby worry too much.

Now go run some trains.

Whether the driver are in sync are not the lack of syncopated chuff is not prototypical. I am not sure why people keep alluding to this even if they are in sync on the real thing there will still be a syncopated chuff due to the design of the simple articulated locomotive and it has nothing due with wheel slip that it happens. Drivers appearing out of sync is due to wheel slippage but can be in sync as well.  

Shawn Chronister

Nick:  Your argument misses two major points.....and like you said, you don't have any skin in this game.

There is nothing unreasonable about expecting the 2019 VL Challengers to sound and function like the 2010 VL Challengers....and almost every other articulated that the Company has issued.  That is NOT complaining or bashing in my book.  (Now, if you wish to purchase via BTO and have no reasonable product expectations when doing so, that's up to you.)

Second, it's important (to me, at least) that my 3985 sound more like my 4014 and not like my 844.  It doesn't matter where the drivers are or whether they are in or out of sync.  I want an articulated to sound different than a regular steam engine.  I want the variety and the locomotive sound differentiation.  As delivered from the Factory, this will not happen.  Ergo, my initial disappointment.

Norm Charbonneau posted:

So...nobody re-phases their articulated drivers anymore? That was always the first thing you did when you got a new one. Is it against the law now?

Norm I do not have a problem with the driver being synced my problems is people thinking that if they are synced there is no syncopated chuff.

Shawn Chronister

Whether the driver are in sync are not the lack of syncopated chuff is not prototypical. I am not sure why people keep alluding to this even if they are in sync on the real thing there will still be a syncopated chuff

I don't think that is true, if by "syncopated chuff" you mean the double chuff that can be heard at low speeds and certain angular mismatches between engines.  At several angles the chuff from a simple articulated sounds a lot like a two cylinder locomotive would.  It of course depends on the length of the exhaust stacks, so you may actually get double chuffs when both engines match.  Remember, there will be four angles, at 90 degrees from each other, that will produce single chuff.

There are no economical ways to simulate this in a scale model except for maybe slightly different gear ratios between engines and sound cams on each engine.  You could go to a two motor solution, but most of them involve butchering the boiler and rear cylinder block.  Yuk!

just got notice that my Challenger is shipping.  When it arrives I will run it to determine if I am pleased with the sounds.  If I am, I will not send it back.  Otherwise, I will.  Hopefully, everything else about the engine will be ok.  We will see.

Harold

Harold

 

Having the wrong sound file loaded at the factory is annoying but at least it can be remedied.  I am more disappointed that the Challengers do not have the kinematic drawbar for close coupling as they were advertised to have in a product preview video.  I did not pre-order because I am skeptical of anything Lionel catalogs.  I am glad I didn't and I will not be purchasing this engine as I hoped I would.  Frankly I am surprised people aren't more upset about that omission.

T4TT posted:

Having the wrong sound file loaded at the factory is annoying but at least it can be remedied.  I am more disappointed that the Challengers do not have the kinematic drawbar for close coupling as they were advertised to have in a product preview video.  I did not pre-order because I am skeptical of anything Lionel catalogs.  I am glad I didn't and I will not be purchasing this engine as I hoped I would.  Frankly I am surprised people aren't more upset about that omission.

I agree. I was also disappointed in this especially when they advertised it in the Ryan and Dave show.  I was also disappointed in the non articulated sound.  So I cancelled my order. I learned my lesson. No more preorders. I wait and see what it is like before I buy it. 

Guys, the driver issue is pretty easy to fix.  If you don't want them "in sync", just remote the single screw holding the articulated power truck on, slide it forward and rotate the drive shaft link to a new position, slide it back together and put the single screw back in.

The sounds only Lionel can fix, and obviously they're going to do just that for folks that send them back in.  Sure, it would have been nice if they were fixed when they had them all apart, but that ship has sailed.  At least they are going to make it right.

bob2 posted:

Whether the driver are in sync are not the lack of syncopated chuff is not prototypical. I am not sure why people keep alluding to this even if they are in sync on the real thing there will still be a syncopated chuff

I don't think that is true, if by "syncopated chuff" you mean the double chuff that can be heard at low speeds and certain angular mismatches between engines.  At several angles the chuff from a simple articulated sounds a lot like a two cylinder locomotive would.  It of course depends on the length of the exhaust stacks, so you may actually get double chuffs when both engines match.  Remember, there will be four angles, at 90 degrees from each other, that will produce single chuff.

There are no economical ways to simulate this in a scale model except for maybe slightly different gear ratios between engines and sound cams on each engine.  You could go to a two motor solution, but most of them involve butchering the boiler and rear cylinder block.  Yuk!

Lionmaster semiscale and MTH Rail King articulateds have separate motors for each set of drivers but I don't think this mechanical arrangement would 'scale up' for the full scale versions. It's kind of funny that semiscale engines could actually simulate driver phasing better than full scale ones. 

There are some halfway decent YouTube vids of the 3985 where you can clearly hear the exhaust without it getting blown out by the insane amount of whistle yanking you hear in your typical railfan vid. This is a nice example starting around 0:43:

I started this post because I was pleased to hear Lionel would add the articulated sound.   Again, thanks to Lionel.     This thread was and still is, intended to be positive and informative.     Positive that Lionel is correcting the problem and informative to anyone who may want to send theirs to Lionel.    If you want to whine, start your own thread.         

Alabama Joe posted:

I started this post because I was pleased to hear Lionel would add the articulated sound.   Again, thanks to Lionel.     This thread was and still is, intended to be positive and informative.     Positive that Lionel is correcting the problem and informative to anyone who may want to send theirs to Lionel.    If you want to whine, start your own thread.         

Lionel intended there vision line to be the gold standard but it is isn't. So if you do not want the constructive feedback being given to the manufacturer about their practices on your thread.  Do not post how great they are for stepping up to fix something that should have never needed to be fixed. They never announced they were really fixing it outright, everyone has had to go out of their way to get it done.

Shawn Chronister

Laidoffsick posted:

Too late to do anything about it, yet they sat in the warehouse for weeks. They were shipped anyway because Lionel knew most people will just accept them as is. As proof right here, many people have just accepted the mistake of screwing up something that had already been done before!

For the record I was talking about Norm’s comment about Lionel being so far behind in model train technology. 

Rod Miller

Norm Charbonneau posted:

So...nobody re-phases their articulated drivers anymore? That was always the first thing you did when you got a new one. Is it against the law now?

And it is so easy to do! I did it.to my Big Boys and Cab Forwards, less than a 5 minute job for each.

 

Laidoffsick posted:
Norm Charbonneau posted:

So...nobody re-phases their articulated drivers anymore? That was always the first thing you did when you got a new one. Is it against the law now?

And it is so easy to do! I did it.to my Big Boys and Cab Forwards, less than a 5 minute job for each.

Like either you or Norm have really nice layouts with large, scale steam......and you actually know what you're talking about!!!  

Speaking of which, with Norm's permission and Gun Runner's blessing, attached is a link to one of my favorite videos that Norm has posted.  Notice the sound and position of the drivers:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-S3KgDBXEOM&t=54s

Norm:  if you don't want this link posted, just let me know.

turbine posted:

My challenger arrives Saturday, Do I need to send it back before I open it, is it really serious. how bad is it out of sync. any videos

If you want the CORRECT articulated sound, yes...send it back. It was a mistake, make them fix it. In sync, out of sync makes no difference, the sound needs to be corrected on an $1800 engine and they will fix it.

 

Obviously this is a Cab Forward, AC12 articulated Legacy Locomotive. Notice the drivers as it goes by. The 2 different engines are OUT of SYNC. I made that change, it was a 5 minute job. Also note that the sound did NOT change at all whether they were in sync or out of sync. It's articulated, and has articulated sounds. Kind of hard to hear it being doubled headed with the GS4, BUT notice the AC12 is making twice as much sound as the GS4 as they go by 

 

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AC12GS4
Laidoffsick posted:

If you want the CORRECT articulated sound, yes...send it back. It was a mistake, make them fix it. In sync, out of sync makes no difference, the sound needs to be corrected on an $1800 engine and they will fix it.

This is pretty much the bottom line here.  Send it it in and get it fixed. 

Marty

 

Below the Signature...

"You should have bought a train."

 

Be nice if dealers would return their unsold inventory of the Challengers to Lionel, have the adjustments made, and then sell them so we don't have to deal with it.

Craignor posted:

Be nice if dealers would return their unsold inventory of the Challengers to Lionel, have the adjustments made, and then sell them so we don't have to deal with it.

Good point. That’s right thing to do. Dealers have power so use it. 

Rod Miller

romiller49 posted:
Craignor posted:

Be nice if dealers would return their unsold inventory of the Challengers to Lionel, have the adjustments made, and then sell them so we don't have to deal with it.

Good point. That’s right thing to do. Dealers have power so use it. 

Well,using a far more serious issue as an example. None of the moguls with defective gearboxes were ever returned.

Lionel decided to gamble and only fix for those who realized or were aware there was an issue.

A far cry from the Mike Reagan days of Lionel where the entire run of turbines was recalled due to a potential waterlogging issue.

Funny how when I called my dealer the other day to cancel preorders.They knew right away it was the big ticket Lionel stuff without me even saying. I was also shocked that the didn't express any disappointment either.

Too much "oops were sorry", "that's good enough", with utter sillyness in between for me to spend thousand of dollars on Lionel any longer.

 

" No matter how far we travel, the memories will follow in the baggage car."

romiller49 posted:
Craignor posted:

Be nice if dealers would return their unsold inventory of the Challengers to Lionel, have the adjustments made, and then sell them so we don't have to deal with it.

Good point. That’s right thing to do. Dealers have power so use it. 

I thought about that as well. I would say though that since this isn't a recall by Lionel, that is out the window. Granted you could probably ask your dealer if they would send yours in, but that is at their discretion.

I think I am with Hot Water here.  "Synchronous" can mean matched at any angle. The only time an articulated is "unsynchronized" is when the drivers slip.

I think you are all talking about engines being "out of phase".  Since any angular disparity would be "locked in," I would say that having both engines in phase is just as likely as having them at, say, 30 degrees forever.

And indeed while I favor Mallets and articulateds, I find the amount of angst over this sound system a bit over the top.  Is there nothing else wrong with this model?  If so, then it is a winner!

I will not be buying one - last count around here was ten Challengers, but no sound.

 

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

One of the guys I talked with on FB is happy with his as is. I told him that it is good as he likes it as it is and that I would be getting the sounds to match the prior VL offering. We both will enjoy our engines the way we want to and that is a good thing.

Well isn't that nice lets put that on every public board we can so Lionel will never have to own there mistakes and can just keep producing substandard products at outrageous prices.

Shawn Chronister

I don't see this as a big deal.  Will check out sounds when engine arrives and make a decision.  Dealer has already checked it for operation and says it runs well.  The plan is to have the Challenger and Big Boy running side by side!

Harold

 

 

 

 

Harold

 

I can't wait to see it, but my Challenger is drifting around USPS for a day and a half since the last scanning.

The YLB Battery 10510 arrived from Henning's today, August 9, 2019.  The engine was to arrive yesterday.  Post Office thinks maybe Monday, not sure, maybe.  It is :in transit to next facility."  Not sure which facility that is.  It is out there somewhere.  It ain't here.

John Rowlen

I just received my Vision Line Challenger on Tuesday, and the locomotive appeared to be excellent, but nothing in the tender works. I'm planning on calling Lionel on Monday to get it fixed, and maybe add the articulated sounds. So I have a couple of questions about this whole situation.

Would the articulated sounds sound somewhat like this? Shown below is the product overview video on the 2014 Vision Line Big Boy:

Also, by no synced smoke, does that mean the sounds be out of sync from the chuff, or the smoke unit function like on the Vision Line Big Boy is excluded? This would help me decided whether or not I'd want to change the sounds.

Peter Araujo posted:

I just received my Vision Line Challenger on Tuesday, and the locomotive appeared to be excellent, but nothing in the tender works. I'm planning on calling Lionel on Monday to get it fixed, and maybe add the articulated sounds. So I have a couple of questions about this whole situation.

Would the articulated sounds sound somewhat like this? Shown below is the product overview video on the 2014 Vision Line Big Boy:

 

Also, by no synced smoke, does that mean the sounds be out of sync from the chuff, or the smoke unit function like on the Vision Line Big Boy is excluded? This would help me decided whether or not I'd want to change the sounds.

As information, the real Union Pacific "big three" steam locomotives (the 4-8-4s, 4-6-6-4s, and 4-8-8-4s with the twin exhaust stacks) do NOT alternate the smoke from the front stack to the rear stack, as shown in that video. More Lionel fantasy.

 

Alabama Joe posted:

I started this post because I was pleased to hear Lionel would add the articulated sound.   Again, thanks to Lionel.     This thread was and still is, intended to be positive and informative.     Positive that Lionel is correcting the problem and informative to anyone who may want to send theirs to Lionel.    If you want to whine, start your own thread.         

Yes, Lionel always stands by their product and keeps me happy...  if I ever have issues they try and make it right...  im thankful for that, and keeps me BTO.  

Things happen, be happy, run trains...

Bob

Lionel Fan and Super "O" Track Enthusiast

Peter Araujo posted:
romiller49 posted:

Evidently the smoke will stay as is since there’s only one smoke unit.

But would it be synced with the new sounds?

It won't change even if the sounds change. I think that may have already been said early in this post. Some have stressed that it would be nice to have as the Big Boys, which I'm sure most would agree would be a good feature to have, but it is not in the cards with this particular engine as stated.

What is your strongest sense? …  Sight or Sound?

Mine is sound, so the articulated sounds is important.

If your strongest sense is sight, then you may want to leave the Challenger as manufactured.  "A puff for every chuff."  (Sounds like a political campaign slogan.)  

Frankly when the engine reaches speed step 64 and above, the smoke is just pouring out of the smoke stacks.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:
Peter Araujo posted:
romiller49 posted:

Evidently the smoke will stay as is since there’s only one smoke unit.

But would it be synced with the new sounds?

It won't change even if the sounds change. I think that may have already been said early in this post. Some have stressed that it would be nice to have as the Big Boys, which I'm sure most would agree would be a good feature to have, but it is not in the cards with this particular engine as stated.

So that means no alternating stacks, right?

Peter Araujo posted:
Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:
Peter Araujo posted:
romiller49 posted:

Evidently the smoke will stay as is since there’s only one smoke unit.

But would it be synced with the new sounds?

It won't change even if the sounds change. I think that may have already been said early in this post. Some have stressed that it would be nice to have as the Big Boys, which I'm sure most would agree would be a good feature to have, but it is not in the cards with this particular engine as stated.

So that means no alternating stacks, right?

Start at the top of this topic.  Your answer and some that will come up.  The complete nuts and bolts have been discussed.  Now it’s pretty much opinions.

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

Laidoffsick posted:

That is correct. Putting the correct sounds in this engine is NOT going to change ANYTHING else.

I see. Then I would like to see both before and after before I make up my mind to send the trains. I have seen people say their trains had more problems after it went to Lionel. 

BTW I finally got a replay back from Lionel (Aaron) asking me to call and give them the info to start the RA. Got the replay back yesterday. I guess they are reading this.

sahan posted:

I see. Then I would like to see both before and after before I make up my mind to send the trains. I have seen people say their trains had more problems after it went to Lionel. 

Given the fact that the sound boards are pretty accessible, and they don't need to remove anything but the boiler top and the tender shell, this should be a relatively easy change.  Sadly, you do have to ship the whole works in as there are sound boards in both pieces.  Anything can happen, but this may be one of the safer fixes.

Shawn_Chronister posted:
Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

One of the guys I talked with on FB is happy with his as is. I told him that it is good as he likes it as it is and that I would be getting the sounds to match the prior VL offering. We both will enjoy our engines the way we want to and that is a good thing.

Well isn't that nice lets put that on every public board we can so Lionel will never have to own there mistakes and can just keep producing substandard products at outrageous prices.

Shawn, before talking what I had said above I had told him that he could send it in to Lionel to get the same sound as the first VL Challenger. He said he was fine with the sounds, who am I to tell him he's wrong, that's his choice. Others had posted there as well talking about changing the sounds like most of us here are wanting. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Guys, the driver issue is pretty easy to fix.  If you don't want them "in sync", just remote the single screw holding the articulated power truck on, slide it forward and rotate the drive shaft link to a new position, slide it back together and put the single screw back in.

The sounds only Lionel can fix, and obviously they're going to do just that for folks that send them back in.  Sure, it would have been nice if they were fixed when they had them all apart, but that ship has sailed.  At least they are going to make it right.

Hi John,

To adjust the drivers to be out of synch, does the boiler shell need to come off, or is this done from the underneath the engine?

Thanks!

gunrunnerjohn posted:
sahan posted:

I see. Then I would like to see both before and after before I make up my mind to send the trains. I have seen people say their trains had more problems after it went to Lionel. 

Given the fact that the sound boards are pretty accessible, and they don't need to remove anything but the boiler top and the tender shell, this should be a relatively easy change.  Sadly, you do have to ship the whole works in as there are sound boards in both pieces.  Anything can happen, but this may be one of the safer fixes.

I saw someone comment that his train came with all scratches after it was sent in to Lionel, so was wondering if it was worth the trouble. Don't want shipping damage or bad handling.

Pitts posted:
gunrunnerjohn posted:

Guys, the driver issue is pretty easy to fix.  If you don't want them "in sync", just remote the single screw holding the articulated power truck on, slide it forward and rotate the drive shaft link to a new position, slide it back together and put the single screw back in.

The sounds only Lionel can fix, and obviously they're going to do just that for folks that send them back in.  Sure, it would have been nice if they were fixed when they had them all apart, but that ship has sailed.  At least they are going to make it right.

Hi John,

To adjust the drivers to be out of synch, does the boiler shell need to come off, or is this done from the underneath the engine?

Thanks!

Unless the design of the running gear has changed, you shouldn't have to remove the boiler top, just slide the front engine forward after removing the screw and rotate the drive shaft coupling to a new position, then put it back together and screw it in again.  You do have to remove the hook from the main frame, and be careful not to lose the dished washer and spring, or you'll have to fish them out and try again.

My Challenger has swinging pipes on the top of the front steam chests.  Don't these need to be disconnected before pulling the front drivers???   The pipes are just like those on the Allegheny #1604.  The job doesn't look that simple to me because of the fragile piping on the steam chests.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

I keep coming back to this thread hoping to see a video of the new Challenger with the articulated sound that Lionel is putting in the Challenger when buyers request it.  Does anyone own a sound-revised Challenger that can post a video with sound?

Sincerely, John Rowlen

hclarke posted:

Like I said, it's no big deal for me.  I'll check it out and then decide.  Lot's of trains to play with in any event.

Harold

 

I decided to play with my other trains while my Challenger and 2 sets of my Legacy ALCOs are in.  I kept thinking that at some point down the road I might regret not having the sounds updated.  Just a preference or recognition of my self diagnosed OCD.  I would have wondered every time I ran the Challenger.  Oh well, 4 weeks and the family will be together again.

I will add, beautiful engine.  Don't regret the purchase 1 iota.

Bryant

TCA 18-73717

John Rowlen posted:

I keep coming back to this thread hoping to see a video of the new Challenger with the articulated sound that Lionel is putting in the Challenger when buyers request it.  Does anyone own a sound-revised Challenger that can post a video with sound?

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Check back in a month.      Mine arrived at Lionel on Friday.   

The sound files are specific for the Vision Line engine road number.  I wonder if my Greyhound #3977 will come back with a generic sound set, but with articulated sounds?  It would be nice if Lionel posted what the sound update would and would not do.

It has to go in because the Ground Motion Light above the Engineer side rear drivers does not light.  I thought these Challengers had been inspected.  I know my Hanes underwear is.  For what I don't know.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

I don't think that would change. Whatever sound bits they need to remove from the engines should be the only thing coming out and be replaced by the ones we are all wanting. I'm sure that none of us expect to hit the crew talk and hear chickens instead of the specific engine number being called out. I would imagine that wouldn't ever be the case.

John Rowlen posted:

The sound files are specific for the Vision Line engine road number.  I wonder if my Greyhound #3977 will come back with a generic sound set, but with articulated sounds?  It would be nice if Lionel posted what the sound update would and would not do.

It has to go in because the Ground Motion Light above the Engineer side rear drivers does not light.  I thought these Challengers had been inspected.  I know my Hanes underwear is.  For what I don't know.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Spoke with Katie who was extremely helpful in solving several issues. She said they have not been told yet as to what the update entails in terms of new crew talk specific with articulated sounds vs if it would be a throwback to the earlier Challenger sound files. As she did not know, she did not state either way. I do appreciate her honesty! 

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I don't think that would change. Whatever sound bits they need to remove from the engines should be the only thing coming out and be replaced by the ones we are all wanting. I'm sure that none of us expect to hit the crew talk and hear chickens instead of the specific engine number being called out. I would imagine that wouldn't ever be the case.

After all the flap about the non-articulated sounds, can you imagine if they came back with the wrong cab number in the crew talk?

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gunrunnerjohn posted:
Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I don't think that would change. Whatever sound bits they need to remove from the engines should be the only thing coming out and be replaced by the ones we are all wanting. I'm sure that none of us expect to hit the crew talk and hear chickens instead of the specific engine number being called out. I would imagine that wouldn't ever be the case.

After all the flap about the non-articulated sounds, can you imagine if they came back with the wrong cab number in the crew talk?

John, are you saying people may get the chickenline Challenger? Now that I thought about it some more, I still think whatever the swap is that those particular sound files would have to be in there, crew talk and all.

I looked closely under bright light at the two Work Lights/Motion Ground Lights on the Engineers side of the Challenger tonight.  The right front Light socket has a yellow LED in it that gives white light.  The other socket in the rear has a gray interior and has no sign of the yellow LED.  No wonder the light fixture does not give white light.

This engine was inspected and has a label on the box.  Did they inspect the engine?  Or did they inspect the box?

I am very disappointed with this engine.  I had to tighten screws on the front end cow catcher assembly underside because it hung down when I put the engine on the track.  A front railing on the porch assembly was also out of its post.  The power plug to the tender was also out of its socket because the wire lead was very short and wrapped in a tight bundle of wires. It must have vibrated loose during shipping.  I was able to pull a little more gray cable and plug it into the tender power socket.

This 1931250 Greyhound Challenger #3977 is beautiful.  It will look perfect pulling my 21" Challenger Cars that I detailed with Presier people that I painted.  I am beyond frustrated.  Good night.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

02A89D4F-3943-4F60-B9ED-3CE2407B623DReceived my Union Pacific 3717 Challenger last week with this label affixed to the box

 

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I think that Lionel did a great job on the detail of the Vision Line Challenger and Big Boy. EXCEPT. Why are the marker lights on the tender lit in red? In fact, why are there marker lights at all on any tender? In all the videos I have looked at, I can not find any marker lights that are lit in red while the train is in operation.  Maybe if the engine is running without any cars, or as a pusher, they might have turned on red marker lights on the tender.      

This also brings up another issue I have, why are  classification lights always lit in green? My understanding was that classification lights were clear or white, and were turned on only when special circumstances existed. "Green. Indicated that, while the train displaying the lights was a regularly scheduled one, a second section was following behind it. " White was used only if it was an extra train, not shown in the timetable. 

When Lionel, MTH and others advertise a prototype correct engine, I wish they would discontinue marker lights on tender and correct the classification lights. Yes, I know that some roads had marker lights permanently installed on tenders, such as the Penn, but most all others did not use marker lights on tenders except is they were pushers.

Ray

Ray of sunshine posted:

I think that Lionel did a great job on the detail of the Vision Line Challenger and Big Boy. EXCEPT. Why are the marker lights on the tender lit in red? In fact, why are there marker lights at all on any tender? In all the videos I have looked at, I can not find any marker lights that are lit in red while the train is in operation.  Maybe if the engine is running without any cars, or as a pusher, they might have turned on red marker lights on the tender.      

Ray

It is a very simple fix. Like any other modern Legacy or VL locomotive, you can turn those markers off using the cab2 remote. When you go to the AUX2 secondary screen, you have icons to turn them off/on. When pulling a train, turn off your rear markers. Turn off your front Class Lights.....

VERY SIMPLE

 

Laidoffsick posted:
Ray of sunshine posted:

I think that Lionel did a great job on the detail of the Vision Line Challenger and Big Boy. EXCEPT. Why are the marker lights on the tender lit in red? In fact, why are there marker lights at all on any tender? In all the videos I have looked at, I can not find any marker lights that are lit in red while the train is in operation.  Maybe if the engine is running without any cars, or as a pusher, they might have turned on red marker lights on the tender.      

Ray

It is a very simple fix. Like any other modern Legacy or VL locomotive, you can turn those markers off using the cab2 remote. When you go to the AUX2 secondary screen, you have icons to turn them off/on. When pulling a train, turn off your rear markers. Turn off your front Class Lights.....

VERY SIMPLE

Good information, as I did the same thing with most all of my MTH steam locomotive models. That said, why does Lionel still insist on offering these high end Vision Line steam models of freight locomotives, with green class light?????

Yes, I am aware of how to turn them off, and it was good to see a reminder on that, thanks Laidoffsick.

I personally would rather not have marker lights at all on the tender of engines, with only a few exceptions like PRR, that the prototype did not have/use. They aren't correct and I personally just really don't like them. It's as though the manufacturers fell that the more lights added to the animation of a model engine, attracts more buyers.

And as far as Class lights, I agree with Hot Water.

RAY

 

because Lionel feels the same as many people in the 3 rail hobby....they just love all the lights and sounds whether they are accurate or not. Kinda the reason this and several other threads have started recently. Better to have them with the ability to turn them off, we never had that ability before. I went in a cut or unplug a lot of lights.

Just because your car has a dome light doesn't mean you ever have to drive with it on  but better to have it in case you dropped your ________ in the dark so you can find it.

Like Hot Water says, get rid of the green, at least go with clear, but we were all told they are no longer accepting input from their customers!

 

As we become more educated in the hobby and in prototype operation, and with manufactures, such as Lionel, that does a fantastic job of detailing models for us 3rd railers, it sure would be nice if they did pay more attention to our input and suggestions.  Weather they implement out suggestions, is another thing. 

Not taking anything away from others that like all the gimmicks , whistles and bells, even if not accurate, is fine. I'm not saying that everything needs to be prototypical correct. Look at what Lionel did with the SP AC12 cab forward in Daylight colors, or the UP Challenger "what if" paint scheme. I don't like them, but others do and they should have what makes them feel happy.

But more and more modelers, especially those that are coming of age, are looking for something that is even more accurate. The great improvements in sound and control, WIFI instead of remotes, quilling and smoking whistles and "smoking" water scoop on the new Niagara, etc. have enhance the hobby. So I applaud Lionel and others to continue to push up the bar.

I support the elimination of marker lights on a tender, even for "what if" paint schemes. This little change may be too late as the dies have already been cut years ago. The last thing Lionel wants to do is invest $$$$ in new dies for existing tenders.

So I guess "it is what it is".

RAY

How hard can it be to lop them off and re-touch the crater? 

Half my locomotives have green class jewels.  I put as many markers as I can on my models.  An AC-11 can have four markers and two class lamps.  Mine get them all!  Yet I insist on 2-rail track, and a scale that makes the track scale out to 4'8 1/2" gauge.  Takes all kinds.

Cut those offending suckers off, fill the hole with JB Weld, and touch up with a black paint marker. 

They actually answered my email yesterday. Granted it was a mixed question about the Mallets and Challengers. I needed clarification on the one part of the answer they gave because I don't know if they were talking about the sounds or the drivers. They question I asked had been about both sync sounds and sync driver and unsynx sound and unsynx drivers.

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

They actually answered my email yesterday. Granted it was a mixed question about the Mallets and Challengers. I needed clarification on the one part of the answer they gave because I don't know if they were talking about the sounds or the drivers. They question I asked had been about both sync sounds and sync driver and unsynx sound and unsynx drivers.

Not sure what you expect them to say every has been answered on here about those questions, one has nothing to do with the other.......

Shawn Chronister

Shawn_Chronister posted:
Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

They actually answered my email yesterday. Granted it was a mixed question about the Mallets and Challengers. I needed clarification on the one part of the answer they gave because I don't know if they were talking about the sounds or the drivers. They question I asked had been about both sync sounds and sync driver and unsynx sound and unsynx drivers.

Not sure what you expect them to say every has been answered on here about those questions, one has nothing to do with the other.......

No, not everything has been answered here Shawn, and obviously the two locomotives I am talking about aren't the same. My point was that they actually answered my email which included questions about the two. I know someone besides myself has stated that the emails we send in go to the great black hole more often then not. I was surprised to get a response. Granted they were a bit sketchy with not exactly telling me if it was the sounds or the drivers they were talking about of the second part of my question I had asked as I was asking about both the sounds and the drivers(this had been before most of this thread had gotten underway as the prior one had just been shut down IIRC).

If Dave Olsen would do a brief Video of the new and old sounds in just one road number, it could help owners decide if it is worth sending the engine back for service.

I know you are busy Dave, but this actually could cut back on some returns …. or bring you a large number more.  It would allow owners of Challengers to make an educated decision.

Again, Thank you for moving the pick-up rollers apart more on the Oil Burning Big Boy Tenders.

Thanks,  John Rowlen

John Rowlen posted:

If Dave Olsen would do a brief Video of the new and old sounds in just one road number, it could help owners decide if it is worth sending the engine back for service.

I know you are busy Dave, but this actually could cut back on some returns …. or bring you a large number more.  It would allow owners of Challengers to make an educated decision.

Again, Thank you for moving the pick-up rollers apart more on the Oil Burning Big Boy Tenders.

Thanks,  John Rowlen

Are you serious???????? OMG

Shawn Chronister

Howard Reed posted:

I saw an HO steam engine that you could control the class lights. you can turn them on and off and change the color from white to green. I believe they used 2 color LEDs for the two colors.

yes bi color or tri color led allows you to change the input voltage to get different colors. Would be a cool option could switch from white green or red depending on the service schedule.

Shawn Chronister

Well, red was not exactly heavily used, only when the locomotive was on the rear end of the train and running backwards, so the white and green should get the job done for most of us.

The problem with current designs is that the class light fixtures are designed to accept the tiny 2mm ceramic LED's for the most part, and those are not bi-color.

Shawn,

I am serious in my thanks to Dave Olsen for moving the pick-up rollers apart more on the new Big Boy Oil Burning Tender to accommodate my Atlas O #5 switches.  I have often not had pleasant things to say about the many repairs my new Lionel engines and passenger cars needed.

Praise when good things are done is as important as criticism, when bone-headed blunders occur.  At some point, and soon, I hope praise will be all I have to give Lionel.  But, and it's a big butt, I know the endless Chinese blunders are keeping me up at night.  I've invested big in Lionel engines, 21" passenger cars, etc. like many others.  The parade of issues is just unbelievable.  It must stop.

I can't wait to see my two Hudsons from Pat's Trains and Mr. Muffins.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John Rowlen posted:

Shawn,

I am serious in my thanks to Dave Olsen for moving the pick-up rollers apart more on the new Big Boy Oil Burning Tender to accommodate my Atlas O #5 switches.  I have often not had pleasant things to say about the many repairs my new Lionel engines and passenger cars needed.

Praise when good things are done is as important as criticism, when bone-headed blunders occur.  At some point, and soon, I hope praise will be all I have to give Lionel.  But, and it's a big butt, I know the endless Chinese blunders are keeping me up at night.  I've invested big in Lionel engines, 21" passenger cars, etc. like many others.  The parade of issues is just unbelievable.  It must stop.

I can't wait to see my two Hudsons from Pat's Trains and Mr. Muffins.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

I was not talking about the thanks I was talking about asking for a video they are fixing plenty of other have shown what it should sound like. I thanked him to for coming out and stating there was a problem at they are fixing it. I am pretty sure if you listen to WM challenger video from Charlie nassau those had the correct chuff its kind of tough to tell be cause of the way it was being run.

Shawn Chronister

Shawn,

Thank you for clarifying your statement.  I am old and feeble and sometimes get confused.  Since I get confused, an organized video comparing the original sounds of the current run of Vision Line Challengers to the new and improved sounds of the service update would be helpful.

I know what that Challenger should sound like, if my first Vision Line Challenger was correct.  That being said, then Lionel should have known what a Vision Line Challenger should sound like.  So why are we having to take this action?

I just want to verify that the sounds will change, and that is worth getting the engine scratched up during the repair.

Sincerely, John Rowlen,

Charter Member, Old and Feeble Model Railroaders of America

I put both the original Lionel 6-11210 Vision Line Challenger #3967 and the newest 1931250 Vision Line Greyhound Challenger #3977 on my layout and ran them past each other so the #3967 articulated sounds could be compared to the current sound in the new Vision Line #3977.

The newest Lionel 1931259 Challenger #3977 can be heard first, then the older VL articulated #3967.  Both Challengers appear to be the same height.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

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John Rowlen posted:

I put both the original Lionel 6-11410 Vision Line Challenger #3967 and the newest 1931250 Vision Line Greyhound Challenger #3977 on my layout and ran them past each other so the #3967 articulated sounds could be compared to the current sound in the new Vision Line #3977.

The newest Lionel 1931259 Challenger #3977 can be heard first, then the older VL articulated #3967.  Both Challengers appear to be the same height.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

I don’t hear any difference. 

Rod Miller

romiller49 posted:
John Rowlen posted:

I put both the original Lionel 6-11410 Vision Line Challenger #3967 and the newest 1931250 Vision Line Greyhound Challenger #3977 on my layout and ran them past each other so the #3967 articulated sounds could be compared to the current sound in the new Vision Line #3977.

The newest Lionel 1931259 Challenger #3977 can be heard first, then the older VL articulated #3967.  Both Challengers appear to be the same height.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

I don’t hear any difference. 

IMHO its not a very good comparison...

Shawn Chronister

John Rowlen posted:

Rod,  You really don't hear the two-tone cadence of the articulated?

Shawn,  We work with what we have available.

Since these are both Lionel Vision Line Challengers, this probably what Lionel has available too.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

That what I meant the 3977 being in the foreground overtook the the cadence of the correct chuff. Be better to run the 3977 completely by and then bring in the other challenger with the correct chuff.

Shawn Chronister

John Rowlen posted:

Union Pacific Challenger #3967 in the "Valley of Bridges"

Vision Line articulated Challenger, Union Pacific #3967, pulls long freight past UP Challenger 3977.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Ok John. I heard it with the new video. Huge difference. That’s the sound I’d go for. Looks like a great layout. 

Rod Miller

Shawn_Chronister posted:
John Rowlen posted:

Shawn,

I am serious in my thanks to Dave Olsen for moving the pick-up rollers apart more on the new Big Boy Oil Burning Tender to accommodate my Atlas O #5 switches.  I have often not had pleasant things to say about the many repairs my new Lionel engines and passenger cars needed.

Praise when good things are done is as important as criticism, when bone-headed blunders occur.  At some point, and soon, I hope praise will be all I have to give Lionel.  But, and it's a big butt, I know the endless Chinese blunders are keeping me up at night.  I've invested big in Lionel engines, 21" passenger cars, etc. like many others.  The parade of issues is just unbelievable.  It must stop.

I can't wait to see my two Hudsons from Pat's Trains and Mr. Muffins.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

I was not talking about the thanks I was talking about asking for a video they are fixing plenty of other have shown what it should sound like. I thanked him to for coming out and stating there was a problem at they are fixing it. I am pretty sure if you listen to WM challenger video from Charlie nassau those had the correct chuff its kind of tough to tell be cause of the way it was being run.

There are few more videos of the WM Challenger on youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzhbzkbHSKs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...10c.1565482006127339

sahan posted:
Shawn_Chronister posted:
John Rowlen posted:

Shawn,

I am serious in my thanks to Dave Olsen for moving the pick-up rollers apart more on the new Big Boy Oil Burning Tender to accommodate my Atlas O #5 switches.  I have often not had pleasant things to say about the many repairs my new Lionel engines and passenger cars needed.

Praise when good things are done is as important as criticism, when bone-headed blunders occur.  At some point, and soon, I hope praise will be all I have to give Lionel.  But, and it's a big butt, I know the endless Chinese blunders are keeping me up at night.  I've invested big in Lionel engines, 21" passenger cars, etc. like many others.  The parade of issues is just unbelievable.  It must stop.

I can't wait to see my two Hudsons from Pat's Trains and Mr. Muffins.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

I was not talking about the thanks I was talking about asking for a video they are fixing plenty of other have shown what it should sound like. I thanked him to for coming out and stating there was a problem at they are fixing it. I am pretty sure if you listen to WM challenger video from Charlie nassau those had the correct chuff its kind of tough to tell be cause of the way it was being run.

There are few more videos of the WM Challenger on youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzhbzkbHSKs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...10c.1565482006127339

That would explain why he ran it all goofy trying to make it sound like it had it so he could sell them.

Shawn Chronister

After comparing my Lionel 6-11210 Vision Line Challenger to the 1931250 new Vision Line Challenger #3977, I see no reason the articulated sound, un-sync drivers can't be added to the new Challengers. 

I don't understand why Lionel chose to manufacture the new Challengers the way they did.  It is not the first time they made a Vision Line Challenger.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John Rowlen posted:

After comparing my Lionel 6-11210 Vision Line Challenger to the 1931250 new Vision Line Challenger #3977, I see no reason the articulated sound, un-sync drivers can't be added to the new Challengers. 

I don't understand why Lionel chose to manufacture the new Challengers the way they did.  It is not the first time they made a Vision Line Challenger.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

You do realize none of the scale Lionel Challengers (nor any other of their scale articulated steamers) actually go in and out of sync with the front and rear engines, that it's electronic wizardry? Same with scale MTH and Sunset/3rd rail that I know of. Much prefer the artificial 4 chuffs going to 8 chuffs then back to 4 chuffs articulated chuffing than having it fixed at 4 chuffs.

Bobby D,

I did not know that.  I do know the two chuff sound chuffs, as currently released by Lionel, sound more like my FEF-3 steam 4-8-4, than the earlier Lionel 6-11210 Vision Line Challenger #3967 steam 4-6-6-4.  Shouldn't technology be moving the sound systems forward toward greater realism?  $2,000.00 is a lot of money for something that is not quite right.  A half way effort should have a half-off price.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

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MVI_0716

At the end of the day, I expect this loco to sound like my JLC Legacy Big Boy and the first VL Challenger.  I don't want it to sound like my 844 or my TMCC Mallet that was only "two chuffs".

I doesn't even matter what is technically correct, per se....although that is certainly important.  What does matter is this model be DIFFERENT sounding than most of my non-articulated steamers. 

Personally, I like the sound "offset" below speed step 14 or so.

hclarke posted:

Tested new Challenger tonight. Great looking engine - runs really well and I am happy with the sounds.   Smoke is excellent, especially the generator smoke.  

😎

Harold

 

Tested mine out as well over the weekend on a 89 car reefer train.  Enjoy.  

C & O-Scalers

LCCA  member

LOTS  member

Appalachian Model Railroad Society

Chesapeake & Ohio Historical Society

 

In my world there is a cold beer and vision big boy for everyone.

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AE66C4CD-FA7F-4C18-82C8-5CE071C8EBAB
hclarke posted:

Tested new Challenger tonight. Great looking engine - runs really well and I am happy with the sounds.   Smoke is excellent, especially the generator smoke.  

😎

Harold

 

The actual sound quality is VERY robust.  Deep and full sounding.

Now if only they had the articulated sound package from the factory........   

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