VL BIG BOY Smoke wick replaced WOW!!

Thanks for sharing this info, which begs a comment and a question:

 

C: Why didn't, or couldn't Lionel have done this from the get go? 

 

Q: Would doing this ourselves void the warranty?

 

Alex

I think Lionel does not want them heat sensors relocated. May cause damage to circuitry. And YES, It will void the 2 year warranty(with shipping fees included)

 I too am curious about other's results. I also would really like to hear from Lionel. Maybe they will post a reply.

Check out the thread INNARDS OF LIONEL VL BIG BOY....Lionel comments on the smoke issue.

I don't care what lionel says .. I paid 2k for mine and it's gonna smoke .. On a side note I did mine the first week I got it .No problems here .. I raised my resistors and New wicks. Some just replaced the wick And had good results .. This would of never of happened if they smoked good.. You think with all the testing on this engine they be like maybe it should smoke better.. 

Really NO EXCUSE for Lionel to not have got this right from the git go for a $2K locomotive! 

Just curious.....Did you ball up a full 8"piece of wicking? What did you do to the sensor? (relocate it or leave it alone). Does the wicking cover up the sensor?

thanks for sharing the info. I have a Legacy Mallet and the Whistle smoke has stopped, thinking some replacement wicking might be called for

I did about 8 inches of wick . Left the sensor alone. Raised the element about 1/8 of a inch.

Jon (From Lionel.) did say in the other thread not to move the temp sensor as it may actually ruin the smoke unit.  He speced the sensor distance, so I trust it.  As for moving the resistors, that's change the distance to the sensor and would be the same as moving the resistor.

 

Now, having said that, I will leave mine closed until after the warranty.  Then at that point, if I still feel the smoke output is sub-par, then I'll dig in.  I got to run mine again for the 1st time in a couple months, and boy, does it smoke out the place.

I am very happy with the stack and whistle smoke. I don't mind the amount of smoke fluid it uses, the heavier the smoke output the happier I am.

The blow down smoke is not close to being good. With engine stopped, looking at the opening, I can slightly see the smoke. (Yes the unit is full of fluid)

If anyone comes up with a solution, it would be great. If the fan speed was slowed would it make heavier smoke so it would become visible?

 

Bob

my whistle smoke became anemic again plenty of smoke fluid fan was working so pulled the new wicking out and looked at remaining 7 wicks choose the thickest one balled it up and made sure no wick blocked the airway.

 

now if you order wicks from lionel be advised the wicks vary in thickness and some are twisted tightly

 

I then turned smoke circuit board over and was surprised to see they actually outlined in white where that sensor should be in regards to smoke element, so I adjusted it and made sure the smoke element was in proper place yes they also have a line showing where the back side should be.

 

and am happy to report my whistle smoke is now far superior to the as delivered output was. the main stack smoke is very good and the blow down smoke is okay.

 

I realize the warranty will come into question if needed later on if something goes poof!

 

but I wonder why lionel made the original pads with the smoke element recessed into the pad they actually made a open space for it to slip into maybe Jon will chime in and enlighten us?

 

I can tell all this if you try running power less than 18 volts it does affect the smoke whistle big time.

 

have a great day all.

 

I think the blow down system is under designed. The smoke unit is too small and the hoses are too big hence the output smoke pressure is low. Try the blow down with the cover off, see how it "seems" to visually smoke better. I have a modification in mind and if/when I do it, I shall share it with you...

 

VL BB blow down unit and hose system.

 

 

Please do - I intend to take on board what everybody else says before I try opening mine up to get at the blowdown unit.

 

At least a couple of people have reported that changing the heating element depth has improved the smoke output of that unit but I would think that if the sensor was designed to be in a particular place relative to it that could mess up the calibration Jon describes. On the other hand no one has reported the dreaded cab light blinks after making this change.

 

Anyway I am not in the market for that kind of modification at least if I have to do it myself. I wonder if changing the tubing and the smoke wicking would work enough improvement to make this feature's performance acceptable? With the body shell off all kinds of experimentation is possible, for example downsizing the tubing. If you try something like that I'd be glad to know the result.

It's the resistor is to low in the bowl for the airflow my blowdown will smoke you out of the room..

IMO, there's plenty of airflow in the blowdown path.  The problem with mine was the temperature sensor was very close to the heater, much closer than the other smoke units.  As a result, it seemed not to get nearly enough smoke.  I moved it to match the other smoke units, and the situation improved immensely.

 

Oh, OK. So did you raise the element? and can you tell us how you did it? Thx!

 

There is plenty of air flow, it is just that the path to the blowdown is more resistive than it is to the fill hole. When I take off the sand dome cover where the switches are, the smoke gets more thick and shoots out of the hole AND the blowdown two holes...Needs more investigation, may be it is my BB

This is very good news GRJ. I'm curious to know if you can see the smoke while the locomotive is in motion? Mine has to be stopped, adjust lighting to shine on blow down port, get very close to see smoke. (fluid level is good) . 

It's hard to see while it's moving, mostly because of the background when I'm looking at it.  The velocity seems to be almost too much, and it shoots out and disperses more than ideal.

The problem with the blowdown is as John says, the velocity is high.  Like I've said in other threads, think of what happens when you put your thumb over the end of the hose.  By restricting the flow it shoots out faster.  The opening for the blowdown is a lot smaller then the hose that leads to it, so the smoke comes out faster, and with the smoke that means it dissipates quickly.  The solution is to either open the ports more, or reduce the diameter of the hose.  But the other problem with that is then it wouldn't be as realistic (Not that the Big Boy had blowdown in those locations per info from Hot Water.) as it would be coming out the holes slowly, which water under steam pressure wouldn't be.  But I would be happy if mine looked like jojofry's did.  It seems to shoot out and still be thick enough to be seen.

First off before i explain why i think raising the element works.. I like to say i respect John from lionel . You design some of the best electronics ,and gunnrunnerjohn for all the help to us members... After having problems with the poor smoke performance on my s3.I took a entire evening working on it.. I noticed that when the smoke motor blows across the element it seem to put out a better flow of smoke vs deep in the bowl  .. Now on the bigboy unit the element is  far down in the bowl ..So now the motor has to fill the bowl up with positive pressure where in my "theory" Blowing across makes it a more efficient unit..You can see mine when its running.. I wanted my blowdown  like the santafe 2-10-10-2 witch has the same size hoses and 1 smoke element doing the whistle and blowdown. .. I got it close to that ..

I think all these are good ideas about improving the blowdown on the BB. I also think that the smoke cools down by the time it exists the two ports on the sides of the cab and that will reduce the smoke effect. Having a hotter smoke will improve the visuals. there are many things factors going on with this unit. Lionel seems like they did not spend to much time on the blowdown and spend much more time on the design of the depleting coal system, and that's ok. May be among us we can come up with a better blowdown effect fix and charge Lionel for our work...LOL....

Thanks for the feedback on this loco, and sorry for folks who are having anemic smoke on the blowdown.  I guarantee you my sample loco, that I tuned the smoke system with, smokes great on all smoke systems; including the blowdown. 

 

If the element is seated too low (packing material too thick) then the element won't come up to temperature.  The packing material acts like a heatsink. The element should be only 1/3 covered (bottom) into the packing material.  The sensor limits the maximum heat, so getting it close to the element will prematurely stop the boosting cycle, causing low temps.  Getting it too far away will cause overheating and damage the smoke unit.

 

Set the element and sensor about 1.6mm apart, or straight up (90 degrees) from their pads on the PCB.  Changing out the packing material material can affect the temp servo system, try and keep the original packing material if possible.  The fluid "bridges" the temp sensor to element and conducts the heat from the element to the sensor via the packing material.  If the packing material is changed to a different type, it affects the thermal time constant and can affect the operation adversely.

 

For those of you who change out the packing material, I will follow the thread and I am sure I/Lionel can benefit from the results.  As a side bar, when I joined Lionel 8 years ago, I asked to change the packing material.  It has not changed, but the reason I was given seems valid to this day.  I am not against change, but it is what I am given to work with to tune the smoke units.

 

Wil Lionel void the warranty if we open VL BB to swap out the batting?

Jon, it seems when you look for the smoke wick that's in there that it's not available.  Is the stock wick available, and if so, what is the part number.

 

For mine, I found the temperature sensor bent away from the resistor, they were not parallel.  The smoke output was very poor.  I compared it to the whistle unit, which worked great.  That one was indeed pretty much parallel with the smoke resistor.  I made the blowdown smoke match and that did greatly improve the blowdown.

 

Jon, you say the reason you were given seems valid to this day...... as for not changing the batting

What is that reason, if the smoke units perform better with the rope style batting???

Yes, but folks who are opening the locos understand this point.

The rope batting melts.  The original style packing material does not.  You can place a propane torch on the original packing material and it won't even make a mark.  Thus one assumes the design criteria are well thought out for material selection.

 

I won't debate the best material, it is not my call or within my experience.  However I will say that I design the smoke system software based on the supplied packing material. 

 

The most important metric I must obey is product safety.  The smoke units are designed to withstand 340 degrees C.  And we come close to this temperature in operation.  That is Really HOT!

 

If the rope batting smokes better, it is probably because it gets even hotter in the smoke unit, which may or may not be harmful. I just don't know, as there are too many factors in play, such as how a person who modifies the smoke unit packs the bowl.

 

Jon,

It is so cool you post on the forum.  Thanks a lot!  I always appreciate the information you share.  BTW thanks for looking into changing the cab light on engines, bummer a master on/off switch was not possible, but I appreciate that you looked into it.  

 

I see a clear trend of heightened responsiveness to the customer in Lionel's new product development, and I think it is great.  Your contributions to this forum are in line with that too.

thanks

Jon, do you have a part number for this wick?

 

Sorry, I do not.  Although I think we should have both materials available. 

 

And please understand I am not against the rope packing, I just don't know much about that material placed into the Legacy and Vision product lines and the results of such.

 

The feedback on this forum, is so very appreciated.  Makes a difference.

 

Thanks for answering my question Jon. That question has been asked many times and we finally have the answer direct from Lionel. Thank you again.

 

You should post the link to your excellent exposition of the issue and your fix. Thanx. 

Hi BigBoy4014,  It is my expectation that if a sample loco is tuned to perform well in all regards, all locos will perform similarly.  There are 3 heater settings on the loco to compensate for individual tastes and production variation.  You should not need to tune your loco to smoke properly.

 

One thing to take note of is that individuals do feel differently as to what is "good" smoke.  My goal is to provide lighter, but visible, smoke at "L", and increase to "M" for typical, and "H" for very visible.

 

Many folks don't want heavy smoke, and it uses up fluid faster.  Some folks want real heavy smoke, the kind that you run for the door after a few minutes!  Hard to please everyone.  However, I do believe there have been too many posts about blow-down on this loco being too light - and that is why I am responding.

 

Please understand we put our heart into this product, and I believe we delivered.  If the blow-down is a bit lighter than folks would like to have, it is not because we did not care, and IMHO does not spoil the product.

Wow, what a Great Thread, and Although this is an Amazing Model, VisionLine Big Boy, it was a bit disappointing to see a light Blow Down. All other features work Fantastic on my 4014, and just for the record, VisionLine 2-10-10-2, Sante Fe 3000, and The VL Pennsylvania 0-8-8-0 Mallet, and The VL Challenger had a different style set up for the blow down.  I wonder why they changed that for the VL Big boy?   I am amazed at some of

you fellows opening up this Locomotive and making significant improvements. 

I like the wheel slip, the Smoking like a Dragster, crew talk, tower com, and yes, the light but steady blow down. I am glad I was able to have one.  (The depleting coal is a show stopper). This engine sets a New Standard in Collecting Toy Trains.

Lionel gave us Train Enthusiast a great Locomotive, like no other Ever Made.

Thank you Jon for helping us understand our new Big Boy. Happy Railroading

Jon, it's clear that a lot of work went into the VL-BB, it's a great product! I hope you don't take the comments here, at least mine, as denigrating the locomotive, as that is clearly not my intent.  Like Larry says, this product raises the bar for Legacy locomotives, so many features and details all crammed into one product.

 

Personally, my issue was apparently a simple assembly defect, aligning the sensor as the other ones were seems to have solved the issue with light blowdown smoke here.

 

I can tell you did, and I do believe you delivered on this locomotive.  And yes, I don't think the light blow-down spoils the locomotive at all.

 

The BB has always been my favorite locomotive, and it has always been my goal to get my hands on one.  In fact it was my planned graduation gift to myself as a way to help me get through school.  Well, I graduated and full filled that gift when I found a mint never opened K-Line BB.  So at that point I had thought I was good and never looked at any other BB models.  But once I found out about the VL BB and saw the information, I knew that if I didn't get it I would kick myself for the rest of my life.  And since getting it and playing with it, I know I was right.  It is the best locomotive I own.  It's the 1st locomotive that has me enjoying the crew talk, which I so hate, so that's saying something.  The sounds are great, and the features enjoyable.  I think it has spent more time with the coal load depleted than filled as I like the look of the used up coal load better than filled.  I will definitely be running this locomotive until the wheels fall off.  And due to it I look forward to the other great products that will come from Lionel in the future, as well as wishing I was working for Lionel as a mechanical design engineer to help create those products.  You definitely have a dream job there Jon.

       

       


Jon,

First - I (and I'm sure many others) appreciate the fact that Lionel is willing to enter the conversation and discuss the issue we are all experiencing. 

Having read virtually every post on the threads concerning the VLBB blow-down smoke production, I think we can ground the conversation by agreeing on a description of the issue:  the blow-down smoke output on the highest Legacy setting, with the unit properly filled, is so light that it is difficult to see the smoke unless the locomotive is standing still. And when standing still, it is such a thin stream that it is still very, very difficult to see unless you look at it at a particular angle relative to the ambient light around the locomotive.

For discussion purposes, I think most would agree that this fairly accurately sums up the situation.  Taking this as a "given," it sounds like your test engine's results were somewhat (to very) different.   As such, I don't think this is a circumstance where people should be taking it upon themselves to tamper with the locomotive internals and voiding their warranties.  Rather, it seems clear that this is a warranty issue.  In essence, the blow-down needs to be tuned in order to replicate the effect Lionel designed and intended to deliver.  This gets the loyal customer (who shelled out over $2k) what Lionel intended them to receive, without any unwarranted (no pun intended) warranty jeopardy. 

I think it would be very appreciated if Lionel were to just set up a simple warranty recall type RA specifically for this issue? 

Thanks and will look forward to your consideration.

Peter