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I captured a clip from a video this morning from a live-streamer at Walt Disney World:

Looks like a conduit of some sort, perhaps for signalling?  Or is there a big center rail roller?

. . . or perhaps it's a pulling cable, like the SF cable cars, and all the huffing and puffing is just a gigantic smoke unit? Just sayin' . . .

Last edited by Steve Tyler

They're not live steam, it's all simulated.

I beg to differ.  The locomotive shown in the video *IS live steam.  There was an earlier video showing trial runs after the RR had been dormant for awhile that shows that same loco taking on water (into the tender) from that same water tower, not simulated.  In that video you can hear the steam powered compressor chuffing and in this video you can see the exhaust in time to what would be that same 2 beat chuff of the compressor.  Also in this video, the engineer gives the single toot stop signal and that's not dry ice vapor coming out of the whistle.  I can't speak for all the WDW RR equipment but this loco most certainly is live steam.

They're not live steam, it's all simulated.

OPPS Beg to differ with you this one time John. I took the behind the train startup up tour and they have live steam in Walt Disney World. They showed us the shop and how they start up cold engines to prepare them for running in the park. Was a great tour but VERY HARD TO BOOK as it is always SOLD OUT!

Must be conduit for signaling as I do not remember even seeing the so called third rail between the tracks.

Curtis

The locomotives are REAL steam locomotives. They are old, but well maintained by Disney mechanical forces as well as outside contractors. The last time I was at the locomotive shops at Disney in Orlando, I ran into Scott Lindsay, who was there doing some work on one of the locomotives. Scott was Chief Mechanical Officer on the 611.



NOTE: I edited my own post to remove a political comment. I also deleted a couple of relevant follow up posts.

Last edited by Rich Melvin

It is interesting that these are diesel fired steam engines. Are they much different from oil fired steam engines?

Diesel fuel is just another form of oil. The only differences are those that deal with the lighter viscosity of diesel fuel as opposed to fuel oil.

I think John and others are confused with the trains at Animal Kingdom that are diesel engines disgused as british built steam engines.

The steam locomotives at Disney World are REAL STEAM LOCOMOTIVES. They burn diesel fuel in the firebox to generate the steam instead of fuel oil or coal. They are not "...diesel engines disgused (sp) as british built steam engines..."

@Wood posted:

Dave, from my perspective "Oil" in reference to engine motivation is a shortcut name for "Diesel". Crude oil is distilled into a variety of products including Gasoline, Diesel, Jet Fuel, Lubricants, and chemicals, etc.

Bingo. Give that man a cigar!

Diesel fuel is easier to handle, easier to store, easier to dispense, and much more readily available than fuel oil. Fuel oil is cheaper per gallon, but the additional infrastructure and delivery costs of using it justify the higher per gallon cost of using diesel fuel.

@Wood posted:

Dave, from my perspective "Oil" in reference to engine motivation is a shortcut name for "Diesel". Crude oil is distilled into a variety of products including Gasoline, Diesel, Jet Fuel, Lubricants, and chemicals, etc.

Almost all modern Steam engines have been revamped to use Diesel because of Government air quality emissions rules.

Nope. The large, main line steam locomotives out west, that originally burned "oil", i.e. Bunker C, such as SP 4449, SP&S 700, UP 844, Santa Fe 3751, all now use reprocessed waste oil for fuel. Although SP 4449 has used some diesel fuel during an emergency (the fuel truck didn't show up), #2 diesel fuel is NOT a good reliable fuel for the larger locomotives. Both of the UP articulated steam locomotives were converted from coal burning to waste oil fuel (3985 was converted back in 1989, while 4014 was converted during her overhaul completed in 2019).

There may be som tourist railroads that have converted their steam locomotives to oil fuel, but generally do NOT use #2 diesel fuel, but prefer reprocessed waste oil.

@Rich Melvin posted:
Diesel fuel is easier to handle, easier to store, easier to dispense, and much more readily available than fuel oil. Fuel oil is cheaper per gallon, but the additional infrastructure and delivery costs of using it justify the higher per gallon cost of using diesel fuel.

My father delivered “fuel oil” for a living for about 20 years. It’s just as widely available as diesel and it’s delivered to terminals via the same pipelines that deliver gasoline, kerosene, and other liquid fuels. In fact, diesel is just one type of fuel oil, a.k.a. #2 with sub-spec for cetane and sulfur content.

If your talking about bunker fuel, a.k.a. #4, #5, or #6 fuel oil or residual fuel oil, then yes, that’s not as widely available outside seaports and power plants and needs heating equipment to allow it to flow more easily. That said, I was pretty sure that steam locomotives equipped for oil burning usually have steam powered heaters to aid this.

Also, if Disney is actually using road diesel rather than straight #2 heating oil or even Kerosene, that seems crazy. Diesel is much more expensive than those, and doesn’t offer any benefit that I could see.

Last edited by rplst8
@Rich Melvin posted:
The steam locomotives at Disney World are REAL STEAM LOCOMOTIVES. They burn diesel fuel in the firebox to generate the steam instead of fuel oil or coal. They are not "...diesel engines disgused (sp) as british built steam engines..."

Please note in my response it was directed to British style steam engines at WDW ANIMAL KINGDOM PARK not Walt Disney World RR (at the Magic Kingdom). WDW RR is still steam as originally envisioned by WD himself.

Last edited by prrhorseshoecurve

The engines at the Magic Kingdom are indeed real steam locomotives (unlike the engines at Animal Kingdom, which are only "steam outline").  All four are originally Baldwin-built, though with boilers built in the early 1970s. They burn No. 2 red diesel fuel. All four were originally foreign export engines, serving their initial owners in the Yucatan.

Of course, gunrunnerjohn isn't entirely wrong--they aren't all original, and many parts of all four engines have been fabricated by Disney.  In addition to new boilers, most of their details are more recent fabrications, including fiberglass cabs, new domes, stacks, pilots and tenders. Even the Baldwin builder's plates are fakes, featuring fonts that Baldwin didn't use.

Disneyland in California played on their reputation as a province of the "fake" when they put one of their locomotives on display at a local rail fair. Under the pilot, partially hidden but not entirely so, they placed a large switch labeled "SMOKE - ON/OFF." It had the desired effect on the curious folks who spotted it.

Everything you ever wanted to know about the engines can be found here:   Walt Disney World Railroad

Last edited by smd4

Just as a note on fuel oil/diesel, etc, there are a variety of products variously called "oil" or fuel oil, there are different grades of almost all of them. So called Bunker fuel oil is one of the lower level products that comes out of the distillation process, it is heavy and because it is less refine, is a lot cheaper (among other things, the yield of bunker oil is much larger for a given barrel of oil, the less refined something is, the more you get per barrel.) Diesel fuel oil and #2 home heating oil are similar products, you can use #2 heating oil in a diesel, but I wouldn't recommend it, #2 heating oil is less refined, is quite frankly dirtier than diesel fuel, and it also doesn't have additives for things like waxing up in cold temperature and the like; plus it is illegal to use it in road use diesel engines because it doesn't have road use taxes on it).

The reprocessed waste oil they are using (and I claim no expertise with that) has basically been refined again with what I know of recycling. It is probably closer to bunker oil in its characteristics than diesel on a semi educated guess. I can tell you that 'oil' as a term is meaningless, the number of categories of refined oil that spans transportation or other uses is huge.

I can understand why people would think Disney simulated steam engines, most of the park railroads out there seem to be running on a diesel or gas engine with "simulated" effects. Disney though is big enough to afford having the 'real thing' there, to be able to pay for the upkeep an whatnot.

@bigkid posted:

I can understand why people would think Disney simulated steam engines, most of the park railroads out there seem to be running on a diesel or gas engine with "simulated" effects. Disney though is big enough to afford having the 'real thing' there, to be able to pay for the upkeep an whatnot.

Disney is actually one of the largest operators of steam locomotives in the world, currently with 17 operational steam locomotives under their umbrella (5 in Disneyland, 4 in WDW, 4 in Disneyland Paris and 4 in Tokyo Disneyland).

Many non-Disney parks continue to operate steam as well, including notables such as Knott's Berry Farm, Cedar Point and Busch Gardens Williamsburg.

Last edited by smd4
@bigkid posted:

Just as a note on fuel oil/diesel, etc, there are a variety of products variously called "oil" or fuel oil, there are different grades of almost all of them. So called Bunker fuel oil is one of the lower level products that comes out of the distillation process, it is heavy and because it is less refine, is a lot cheaper (among other things, the yield of bunker oil is much larger for a given barrel of oil, the less refined something is, the more you get per barrel.) Diesel fuel oil and #2 home heating oil are similar products,

Generally "home heating fuel" is #1 diesel.

you can use #2 heating oil in a diesel, but I wouldn't recommend it, #2 heating oil is less refined, is quite frankly dirtier than diesel fuel, and it also doesn't have additives for things like waxing up in cold temperature and the like; plus it is illegal to use it in road use diesel engines because it doesn't have road use taxes on it).

Again, "home heating fuel" is #1 diesel and is far more refined/filtered that vehicle #2 fuel. In fact, in extremely cold weather, i.e. minus 20 below zero and colder, #1 diesel can be used in diesel powered pick-up trucks, in order to prevent waxing.

The reprocessed waste oil they are using (and I claim no expertise with that) has basically been refined again with what I know of recycling. It is probably closer to bunker oil in its characteristics than diesel on a semi educated guess.

Nope! Reprocessed waste oil is about equal to SAE 30 weight motor oil, and a LOT less expensive than #5 Burner Oil. Also, for what it's worth, the extremely thick/heavy Bunker Fuels, are pretty expensive and fairly difficult to obtain (especially since it has to be kept hot in order for it to flow, just like tar). Ever since the Metro-Chemical industry, i.e. plastics, was begun in the mid to late 1950s, Bunker C is no longer "leftover".

I can tell you that 'oil' as a term is meaningless, the number of categories of refined oil that spans transportation or other uses is huge.

I can understand why people would think Disney simulated steam engines, most of the park railroads out there seem to be running on a diesel or gas engine with "simulated" effects. Disney though is big enough to afford having the 'real thing' there, to be able to pay for the upkeep an whatnot.

@Hot Water posted:
@bigkid posted:

Just as a note on fuel oil/diesel, etc, there are a variety of products variously called "oil" or fuel oil, there are different grades of almost all of them. So called Bunker fuel oil is one of the lower level products that comes out of the distillation process, it is heavy and because it is less refine, is a lot cheaper (among other things, the yield of bunker oil is much larger for a given barrel of oil, the less refined something is, the more you get per barrel.) Diesel fuel oil and #2 home heating oil are similar products,

Generally "home heating fuel" is #1 diesel.

you can use #2 heating oil in a diesel, but I wouldn't recommend it, #2 heating oil is less refined, is quite frankly dirtier than diesel fuel, and it also doesn't have additives for things like waxing up in cold temperature and the like; plus it is illegal to use it in road use diesel engines because it doesn't have road use taxes on it).

Again, "home heating fuel" is #1 diesel and is far more refined/filtered that vehicle #2 fuel. In fact, in extremely cold weather, i.e. minus 20 below zero and colder, #1 diesel can be used in diesel powered pick-up trucks, in order to prevent waxing.

This is incorrect. The overwhelming majority of home heating fuel in the US is #2 fuel oil.  Additionally, #1 fuel oil is sold as Kerosene and sometimes jet fuel.

Road diesel is a sub-class of #2 fuel oil that specifies a cetane number (which basically indicates ignition temperature) and then for sulfur content. Generally any #2 fuel oil (and sometimes #1) that is not subject to transportation excise taxes is dyed to prevent use in on-road motor vehicles. If you're suspected of using untaxed fuel, a simple inspection of the fuel filter will determine if a violation occurred.

A typical diesel engine can run on pretty much any of these fuels (and maybe more) because they are built so robustly, they don't need ACTUAL diesel fuel. Long term you can cause damage (especially using #1) but also with some of the #2 fuels when they are used in newer vehicles. The reasons for this are varied, but usually with #1 it's because it doesn't lubricate the injectors well enough. With #2, the newer diesel engines expect ultra low sulfur diesel, but I don't know if it's more a problem for the engine itself, or the emissions equipment.

@rplst8 posted:

This is incorrect. The overwhelming majority of home heating fuel in the US is #2 fuel oil.  Additionally, #1 fuel oil is sold as Kerosene and sometimes jet fuel.

Road diesel is a sub-class of #2 fuel oil that specifies a cetane number (which basically indicates ignition temperature) and then for sulfur content. Generally any #2 fuel oil (and sometimes #1) that is not subject to transportation excise taxes is dyed to prevent use in on-road motor vehicles. If you're suspected of using untaxed fuel, a simple inspection of the fuel filter will determine if a violation occurred.

A typical diesel engine can run on pretty much any of these fuels (and maybe more) because they are built so robustly, they don't need ACTUAL diesel fuel. Long term you can cause damage (especially using #1) but also with some of the #2 fuels when they are used in newer vehicles. The reasons for this are varied, but usually with #1 it's because it doesn't lubricate the injectors well enough. With #2, the newer diesel engines expect ultra low sulfur diesel, but I don't know if it's more a problem for the engine itself, or the emissions equipment.

Low sulfur diesel is because of emissions regulations as far as I know, they limit the sulfate emissions that cause acid rain. You are right about dye being used on untaxed products.

Kerosene is #1 fuel oil. Kerosene can cause problems in diesel engines because it burns a lot hotter, and that can cause damage. On the other hand, it was common to mix kerosene with #2 diesel fuel, among other things helps prevent waxing in cold weather.

Note, you wouldn't want to use #1 fuel oil (kerosene) in a oil fired furnace unless it is designed to use it. #1 burns a lot hotter and could cause severe damage if used in a typical home oil fired furnace or boiler. #2 diesel fuel and #2 heating oil are similar, but besides road use taxes, #2 diesel fuel has additives to it for cold weather operation and the like that heating oil doesn't have.

Last edited by bigkid
@superwarp1 posted:

You know this thread was about WDW RAILROAD.  Long ago in a galaxy far far away.

And I am in the group which thinks this is a conduit placed smack dab in the middle of the track.  Not something that would be allowed on a Class I railroad, but not surprising at Disney.

Just thinking here, and this is merely where my aging brain wandered:

I have never been to Disney World, but I recall that the Disneyland railroad has block signals as well as a couple of crossings with active warning devices, including gates.  The signal equipment was not the bullet proof US&S or GRS  equipment used by railroads, but appeared to be either something that might have been designed just for the park railroad, perhaps even built by Disneyland.  Don't get me wrong . . . this is not a cheap shot at Disney.  They just did not need heavy duty signaling and installed a purpose-built system for protection against following movements in a single direction, that worked for them.  An exposed conduit between the rails could help to reduce the cost of installation and maintenance, and, since it is a private park railroad which does not have to adhere to Federal statutes for its signal system, there would be nothing preventing laying cable for easy access.  Disney would have the same maintenance issues that Class I lines face concerning signals that sometimes stay red for various reasons, and perhaps the exposed conduit could be the result of things they learned from operating their railroad at Disneyland and maintaining its signal system.

Last edited by Number 90
@Number 90 posted:


I have never been to Disney World, but I recall that the Disneyland railroad has block signals as well as a couple of crossings with active warning devices, including gates.  The signal equipment was not the bullet proof US&S or GRS  equipment used by railroads, but appeared to be either something that might have been designed just for the park railroad, perhaps even built by Disneyland.  Don't get me wrong . . . this is not a cheap shot at Disney.  They just did not need heavy duty signaling and installed a purpose-built system for protection against following movements in a single direction, that worked for them. 

Disneyland originally had an operating block signal system with lineside block signals, utilizing vertical two- and three-aspect searchlight-type signals, and they did have protected crossings, including gates. Several years ago, the lineside block signal system was dismantled in favor of in-cab signaling, with small red/yellow/green signals placed in the cab in front of the engineer.

@smd4 posted:

Disneyland originally had an operating block signal system with lineside block signals, utilizing vertical two- and three-aspect searchlight-type signals, and they did have protected crossings, including gates. Several years ago, the lineside block signal system was dismantled in favor of in-cab signaling, with small red/yellow/green signals placed in the cab in front of the engineer.

Interesting.  Thank you for the information.

@CBQ_Bill posted:

If the conduit is PVC pipe, why does it not melt from the heat of the steam locomotives ?

Does WD = Walt Disney ?

Does WDW = Walt Disney World ?

How is WD-40 related to WD & WDW ? 😀😆🚂🐭🐹🔥

Even if it's PVC, it's probably far away enough from the firebox to not be affected by the heat (I was under our locomotive when under steam with a fire going trying to loosen a stuck damper. It's not that hot).

WDW = Walt Disney World.

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