WBB

Williams by Bachmann did introduce some good stuff after the acquisition in 2007 and seemed enthusiastic at the onset.

In the news release from the company that year, Bud Reece, Senior Vice President Sales & Marketing for Bachmann, was quoted as saying "We at Bachmann feel that the Williams brand is very important in the 3-rail market place. We will continue to use and promote the Williams name as ‘Williams by Bachmann’ to capitalize on both brand names. With the help of Larry Harrington, we plan to expand the availability of Williams by Bachmann products by supporting both the current Williams dealers and our national distributors. We will certainly continue to honor warranties from Williams, and we also hope to continue the Platinum Club on a modified program, yet to be determined, plus offer and expand the club to all of our Bachmann family."

In addition to the Peter Witt streetcar, I love the Baldwin 4-6-0 WBB introduced circa 2011, which was nicely geared and smooth as silk. It’s still one of my favorites for my O-27 layout.

Now, more than 15 years later, WBB seems to have little interest in the O gauge market.

I think it’s clear that Bachmann is expected to perform strongly under its holding company, Kader (which bought Bachmann in the early 1980s when Bachmann was strictly a mass-market train maker similar to Tyco).

So maybe Kader, which has a mass-market nature, simply isn’t interested in niche hobby products. If Larry Harrington was talking a lot about return on investment and expressing doubts that his ideas will be considered, I guess that would be consistent.

Even though I'm slowly leaving the hobby, it's a pity that WBB seems to be on the way out. My last York had me selling all my engines - all conventional. Although some sales were missed because they weren't computer controlled, other people were eager to buy them because of the dependability of conventional: "Nothin' I can't fix myself". So long & thanks, WBB.

@Craftech posted:

Customizable as well.

John

Beautiful John!  Thanks for the added info Dave.  Going for the checkbook right now!  LOL

@MainLine Steam posted:

Competing to sell new product, when I my opinion, this is plenty of used product out there is a "tough go".

For instance when I asked about buying a K-Line Mikado recently (which I did and posted about) many opinioned, that the Lastest Lionel Version probably used those molds.  Well for the price difference, I can upgrade the electronics to anything I might want and add detail parts, and still be at less than half the price.  Plus no zinc pest (they would have shown up by now).  Or if I leave as is, could probably buy (4).  It has TMCC, Railsounds, Chuffing smoke and Electro-coupler.

Another example - Used Weaver Brass Big Boy recent sales on that auction site $538 - $800.  Not $2,899.  Can do a lot upgrades for a $2K price difference.

Just Sayin'

Don't recall Weaver making a brass Big Boy.  Was it a Williams maybe?

@Bill DeBrooke posted:

Don't recall Weaver making a brass Big Boy.  Was it a Williams maybe?

Yes, very sorry, you are correct.  I have both Weaver and Williams Brass (but not a Big Boy) and get confused some time.

@artyoung posted:

Even though I'm slowly leaving the hobby, it's a pity that WBB seems to be on the way out.

WBB is on the way out.

Of course, it's prudent to remember that Bachmann is a 180+ years manufacturer/marketer.  Maybe not the same cachet...at least to this crowd...as "Lionel", but all in all quite successful and durable in their own M.O..

So, O3R hasn't quite panned out, apparently.  Ford had its Edsel, Chevrolet its Vega, Pontiac its Fiero, ...and Lionel had its HO, several pushes of the car up the hill with a rope, in fact.

A few Yorks back I also collared a Bachmann rep for a chat.  Just from their display you could tell that O gauge trains...WBB (O3R), NOT their highly successful, innovative On30 line...was a 'stepchild' in the family.  I challenged 'Jack'...I believe was his name...to consider a shot in the arm for their newest acquisition.

I had two memorable encounters/experiences that year.  First, while working behind the Trains counter at the LHS, I watched enviously as the crowds daily gathered at the Radio Control counter(s) in the store to see the latest and greatest new products capitalizing on the rapid changes afforded by BATTERY TECHNOLOGY.  It touched every branch of that hobby.  Gas-powered engines were passé.  Electric motors, brushless motors, micro-motors...in airplanes, drones, helicopters, cars, trucks, speedboats, sailing boats, military equipment, construction equipment.  Totally untethered.  Lights, cameras, action, sounds.   

But not in T-R-A-I-N-S.

There were days, I swear, that given an appropriate sized, handy flyswatter, I'd have taken out one of those mini-drones the R/C crew flew around the Trains Dept...just to disturb the crickets in our corner!

Anyhow, the other 'event' was encountering a vendor in Orange Hall who was selling  battery power, R/C conversions for trains...principally G scale, ...but also demonstrating installation in O scale/gauge equipment!!  Whoa!!!!  Now, successful 'Dead Rail' conversions in G scale were a no-brainer based on multiple DIY articles in some hobby periodicals by then.  But, O scale??  Not so much.  But there they were...DCC, sound, and no wires to the track.  I was mesmerized.  So I decided to give it a try for myself...but on an LGB mogul that I had.  A few weeks thereafter, I took that mogul and its battery/electronics equipped tender over to the R/C department, put it on the carpeted floor...NO track...turned it on, and with black box in hand ran proudly ran it past the counters, R/C crew, and their customers.  Take THAT!!

So, meanwhile, back at that York discussion with 'Jack'.  I dared suggest their resuscitation and barnstorming entry into the world of O gauge (NOT On30!) might be starter sets with BATTERY POWER, remote control, durable equipment (the Williams stepchildren)...and (drum roll) a new variant of their highly successful HO E-Z track line; O gauge E-Z track, 2-rail.  Both engines/rolling stock features (e.g., wheel treadwidth, flange depth, etc.) and track features(e.g., rail height) designed to enable running on existing 3-rail layouts.   You know..."The future can be NOW on your existing 3-rail layout!"...sort of hype.

Ah, well, Jack was a true ambassador for the hobby...he had boundless tact.  As I concluded my blather, he smiled and then told me a story about Bachmann's recent experience with marrying batteries with trains.   Bachmann HAD been discussing battery power for trains...in the search for new products.  However, it seems some chap decided to execute one of those DIY conversions on his Bachmann 'Big Hauler' train set.  Of course he didn't exactly follow the instructions/advice of others.  A battery is a battery, right?  A charger is a charger, right?  Battery + charger were not compatible, house fire occurred, lawyer hired, went to court.  Bachmann (deepest pockets, of course) named to be complicit and liable for damages. ( )  Cut to the chase, Bachmann's involvement was dismissed (common sense prevailed).

But 'collateral' damage was done;The legal staff declared that any thoughts of putting batteries in trains should be quashed.  Too risky.  Not enough safeguards.  Too many idiots (my thoughts, not theirs!),  And so, even though it had, indeed, been considered, it would never again be discussed...until the legal beagles could agree it was acceptable.  Well, Jack's version was more polite, but no more optimistic.

It's really too bad, too.  It's the sort of resuscitation that the WBB pieces to the future puzzle could possibly hold.  After all, there's no denying that Lionel has a firm grip on the starter set market for O3R.  There's also no denying that no O3R trains manufacturer has made that first offering of a 'Dead Rail' set into the starter market.  Bachmann is, however, king-on-the-hill for starter sets in HO/N/G/On30.   Battery powered hobby products is fast losing its innovative charm.  It's becoming the gorilla-sized norm in the world of powered hobby products.  When...and IF...it ever becomes a participant among the giants of our hobby...trains..., it will already be ho-hum.  The excitement will be fast departing.

I agree with all who will miss WBB's O3R products.  The realities of today's O3R business are really tough, it would seem.  If it must be, ...R.I.P., WBB.

KD

Agree with a lot of what you say KD, but not all the details.

Lionel has done what you suggested, but without the dangers of someone that doesn't know what they are doing burning down their house while charging Lithium Batteries.  It's called Lionchief.  Takes the power from 3R track.  It is dominating the entry level O market.  Latest version even supports operating from cellphone via bluetooth.  I being a dinosaur, think the Universal remote is the way to go.

Now for those savvy enough, you can remove the center roller and power it with on board batteries (Dead Rail).  Also Gargraves makes 2R version of their track and coincidentally talked to Steve at Ross Booth on Saturday and said he also provides if requested (doesn't inventory it so longer lead time).

Fair enough.

I don't have ANY experience with Lionchief and universal remote, so I'll leave it at that.  And, yet, can Lionchief run MTH, et al, equipment?  In the world of 2-rail, DCC is an NMRA mature standard that is immensely embraced and appreciated by the scales/gauges using it. 

But, re the track issue...  Bachmann's E-Z track is the standard for starter sets in HO (and N).  Ask Athearn and Walthers.  They use B's E-Z track in their starter sets because it checks all the boxes for that first loop of track...and is expandable, a nice feature for those so inclined.  I'm not sure Ross's sectional track would be considered a 'starter set track' on the same basis as is, say, FasTrack.  And, yes, Lionel has a 2-rail FasTrack...in S gauge, but I seriously doubt they will be a leader in O gauge 'dead rail' DCC-equipped starter sets.

OTOH, now that I think about it, if Steve (Ross) married his sectional 2-rail track to his molded roadbed, it could be a close contender!  Hmmmm...  OTOOH, I doubt he'd find his boardroom sales pitch at Bachmann International very well received...albeit it in a tactful, polite way.

Just another opinion, mind you.

@RickO posted:

K Line made fantastic products. Many items still hold the bar high even by today's standards. I.e. most of their passenger cars, as well as the Hudson and K4.

BUT, ultimately they did NOT succeed, because they low balled their own MSRP.

I thought it was the Lionel lawsuit they lost.

@BobbyD posted:

I thought it was the Lionel lawsuit they lost.

The lionel lawsuit was the last straw, but it also was Klein was not the best of businessmen from what people have written. He loved the trains, made some really great stuff, but he always seemed to be on the edge during his years in business. It really was a shame, and Lionel put the final nail in the coffin winning that lawsuit--or at least that is my take on it.

I also would be careful about assessing the health of 3 rail O from WBB apparently dropping the ball. Big corporations don't always make wise decisions, they can be blind to opportunities (there are real reasons that most new things come from small companies, that big companies then gobble up; the EV revolution wasn't triggered by a big car company, wasn't that long ago they were saying EVs were golf carts). I think the Williams line could have done well, basically in the MTH rail king or Lionel Lionchief space, if they had offered some kind of command control. Yeah, would have been another system, but one of the advantages had they gone to a bluetooth implementation is that with a wireless system it is a lot easier then having to install yet another wired one, like DCS and Legacy (lot cheaper, too, just need a free phone app and/or a simple remote).

In the end this is just speculation anyway, it seems like WBB is basically living off their existing stuff until that becomes unprofitable, then pfft likely.

I hope this isn't too off the topic but with the talk of going away from powered rails and using batteries... Lego did that ages ago for their trains. I was into those a bit at the time and I recall so much resistance to it at 1st but at this point most folks have switched over and seem happy.

@dkdkrd posted:

Fair enough.

I don't have ANY experience with Lionchief and universal remote, so I'll leave it at that.  And, yet, can Lionchief run MTH, et al, equipment?  In the world of 2-rail, DCC is an NMRA mature standard that is immensely embraced and appreciated by the scales/gauges using it. 

But, re the track issue...  Bachmann's E-Z track is the standard for starter sets in HO (and N).  Ask Athearn and Walthers.  They use B's E-Z track in their starter sets because it checks all the boxes for that first loop of track...and is expandable, a nice feature for those so inclined.  I'm not sure Ross's sectional track would be considered a 'starter set track' on the same basis as is, say, FasTrack.  And, yes, Lionel has a 2-rail FasTrack...in S gauge, but I seriously doubt they will be a leader in O gauge 'dead rail' DCC-equipped starter sets.

OTOH, now that I think about it, if Steve (Ross) married his sectional 2-rail track to his molded roadbed, it could be a close contender!  Hmmmm...  OTOOH, I doubt he'd find his boardroom sales pitch at Bachmann International very well received...albeit it in a tactful, polite way.

Just another opinion, mind you.

KD - I want to be sure you know I agree with you!  Especially about the DCC standard, versus MTH and Lionel both doing there own thing in the 1990's.

This has kind of drifted way off topic.  I am gathering some information and will start a new topic on the whole control system "issue".

BTW, I have Bachmann HO E-Z track.  It is interesting they produced it two different ways.  On some the track can be detached from the roadbed.  On some the all the plastic is a single piece with the rails slid in.

I don’t know. All we have is a guy talking at a trade show and everyone is writing off WBB. I’m not buying this yet.

@ChiTown Steve posted:

I don’t know. All we have is a guy talking at a trade show and everyone is writing off WBB. I’m not buying this yet.

Then you’re in denial.

@MainLine Steam posted:

KD - I want to be sure you know I agree with you!  Especially about the DCC standard, versus MTH and Lionel both doing there own thing in the 1990's.

This has kind of drifted way off topic.  I am gathering some information and will start a new topic on the whole control system "issue".

BTW, I have Bachmann HO E-Z track.  It is interesting they produced it two different ways.  On some the track can be detached from the roadbed.  On some the all the plastic is a single piece with the rails slid in.

Did or does Bachmann really make HO track that detaches from the roadbed?  I thought it was Atlas that made the HO track that detaches from the roadbed.

The two kinds of Bachmann HO EZ track that I am aware of are the nickel silver silver rails with gray roadbed and the steel alloy rails with black roadbed.  IIRC, the steel alloy track costs about 20-30% less than the nickel silver track 

"guy talking at a trade show "

I believe the guy mentioned, Larry Harrington,  is someone who worked with Jerry Williams back in the day for years,  and then went to Bachmann when they purchased Williams, so he's pretty important in the company and knowledgeable about the product line's track record and its history.  So I take these comments as quite credible, if accurately reported. That said, time will tell, as nothing definite was reported about Williams by Bachmann's short or long term fate.  I agree it's looking grim at the moment when one considers the recent product line.

@ChiTown Steve posted:

I don’t know. All we have is a guy talking at a trade show and everyone is writing off WBB. I’m not buying this yet.

Connect the dots. This isn’t just about one guy, who just happens to be Williams veteran Larry Harrington, making a comment. WBB’s mass benching of Williams tooling, the lack of any substantial Williams by Bachmann products in recent catalogs and the sound of critics about promoting new products, plus the blowout sales of all inventory, makes it pretty obvious that Larry is telling it like it is.

For those that talk about the high prices of Williams products in recent years, I would not pay attention to the MSRP's that they show in the catalogs; They are absolutely absurd prices that make no sense at all, but from what I have seen, no dealers of any sort sell modern Williams at anything more than half the MSRP's in the catalogs. For example, any diesels that the catalog says are $4-500 a pop, I've never seen them offered for more than $250, maybe $300, whether it's a hobby shop, eBay, or a dealer at a show. And then of course, they can still be put on sale for much lower prices than that.

Based on the lack of new product in the past several years, I too am afraid that the Williams line is somewhere near the end, and it would be very unfortunate if that is the case. I'm not really a conspiracy theorist, but the fact that we only got a few new freight cars and E-Z Street stuff in the past few years doesn't go unnoticed. I also do think that some of the theories mentioned by other members in this thread about why Williams isn't making much new product, and just rehashing the same 5+ year-old stuff, sound plausible too.

If WBB wants to succeed in this market, they should develop a board that will run on both DCS and TMCC.

The DCS patents will be expiring shortly and TMCC already should have.

If they had a loco that could run on both systems with the detail of the engine SIRT showed for less than a LC+ 2.0 loco, they’d have a hit on their hands.

The good news is that the work to develop that board could be amortized over every locomotive they sell from now until MTH and Lionel break compatibility with their older command locomotives, which they are very unlikely to do.

@Jim R. posted:

Connect the dots. This isn’t just about one guy, who just happens to be Williams veteran Larry Harrington, making a comment. WBB’s mass benching of Williams tooling, the lack of any substantial Williams by Bachmann products in recent catalogs and the sound of critics about promoting new products, plus the blowout sales of all inventory, makes it pretty obvious that Larry is telling it like it is.

Thanks for more info. I don’t follow WBB very closely. Seems like with prices going so high that WBB would be positioned to do better. But maybe not the case.

Years ago WBB stopped promoting their product in our magazine.  It was an all of a sudden pull out of ANY kind of advertising of their product.  When asked why,  the reason given was that they did not think advertising in OGR and on the forum was profitable and that "marketing" could not justify promoting their product in this community / format.  When I pointed out that dozens of threads discussing their product were started in response to ads run by them in the magazine AND that tens of thousands of clicks were taking place on their banner on the forum, the response was on the edge of being negative...sort of a don't bother us attitude.   Frankly, I could not get audience with the power's to be or the marketing team.  The door was pretty much slammed shut.   A similar scenario took place with other advertising venues.

When "top of mind" awareness is lost, it can be difficult to regain.  In addition, pricing of the product in their catalogs was not competitive with other more advanced offerings and went a long way in reducing demand.  All of this along with a couple of years of supply and manufacturing problems due to the COVID situation probably explains much of what is going on currently.  I can tell you this much ... believe Larry when he gives you his opinion and outlook because it is likely based on what has already been decided.