We Need Your Help to Save a 4-6-0 from Being Scrapped Next Month

I donated what I could this morning.  While "we can't save them all" in the preservation arena, it would be wrong to see a steam locomotive in relatively good cosmetic (and apparently possibly mechanical) shape get scrapped almost 100 years after it was built.  I hope things go well for this engine and that we'll see it in a new home soon.

Are the people who decide to scrap everything without public input or notice even elected in a fair vote? 

Andrew

Just donated, hoping all ends well. 

I say scrap the politicians . . . 

Almost $15,000 raised so far!  We have a very good chance of actually pulling this off, but still need more help!  Please, if you haven't given yet, make a contribution to the effort.  And if you scroll down through the donor list you will find yourself in very good company! 

Donate to Save the 503

...and now up to $18,000.  Please help if you can!

Jason has been broadcasting live daily via his Facebook page and telling and showing a lot about the locomotive, answering many questions (https://www.facebook.com/That-...Guy-319972281379363/).  If it wasn't for recent heavy rain, Jason says the locomotive would have been scrapped LAST week.  Time is short.

Are there 100 people in Texas with $300 to $500 each to help with the cause? 

Anderw

Just did what I can do to help with a donation.

Side Rod

deadline is TODAY.  Please help.  $10,000 needed...

Just donated something toward it!  There is no reason she needs to be scrapped, and it's a great plus that the contractor doesn't seem interested in scrapping her, either!

I just donated as well. Scrapping a steam locomotive in 2018 should never happen. Where is the respect of history sometimes?

UPDATE 2/20: OUR GOAL HAS CHANGED AND DEADLINE EXTENDED! Inland Environment had inititally priced the scrap value for no. 503 at $20,000.

After performing their own appraisal, they now value the locomotive and tender at $35,000!

Broken down, our projects costs are now:

$35,000 to Inland Environment for the purchase

$10,000 to Over-the-Top Construction for trucking

$20,000 for cranes

Our deadline for raising funds is now February 28th! A purchase agreement for the locomotive will be signed on February 21st.

OUR IMMEDIATE GOAL:

We're raising $65,000 to purchase the locomotive from the city's contractor and move it to the Texas State Railroad for interim storage. The locomotive is currently slated for demolition and scrapping in the next few days! The locomotive and display site must be disposed of by March 6th, 2018.

OUR PLAN:

1) purchase the locomotive from the contractor hired to perform the demolition and fund the move of the locomotive out of Port Arthur

2) place the locomotive under the care of a non-profit organization dedicated exclusively to its ongoing rehabilitation.

3) finalize arrangements for the use of a restoration facility and restore the locomotive operation via funding provided through donations and from The Royal Palm Railway Experience which is operated by the Orlando and Northwestern Railroad in Florida.

4) move the locomotive to Florida for long-term operation with the Orlando and Northwestern Railway.

This is a campaign to save a locomotive that does have a future! These funds will accomplish the purchase from the scrapper and the initial move from the park to the Texas State Railroad.

 I, Jason Sobczynski, will handle the disbursement of the funds raised to the owner of the locomotive for the purchase of the artifact, to the trucking company for the transportation of the artifact to the Texas state Railroad, and to the crane companies which will be utilized to load and unload the locomotive and tender. 

Following the creation of the trust which will care for this locomotive, ownership of the locomotive will be transferred  to the trust for $1.

 Any left over monies from this campaign will be given to the trust along with the locomotive.

If we are unable to fund the immediate purchase and movement of 503, all donations will be refunded or forwarded to a railroad preservation organization of the donor's choice.

Wow.

Way to move the goal posts. 

On the "Roundhouse Podcast", where I first heard of this effort, Jason Sobczynski told the host, Nick Ozorak that his "worst case" scrap value for the engine delivered as finished scrap at the yard would be approximately $17,700. This new figure is double that.

I've already made a small contribution. Unfortunately I cannot give any more at this juncture.

I wish them luck.

Scrapp  Is at a real low....   60.00 a ton.. So whats that engine weigh?

Don't believe that much in scrap value based on current market.

SantaFe158 posted:

UPDATE 2/20: OUR GOAL HAS CHANGED AND DEADLINE EXTENDED! Inland Environment had inititally priced the scrap value for no. 503 at $20,000.

After performing their own appraisal, they now value the locomotive and tender at $35,000!

That is a 75% increase in the estimated scrap value! Is that possibe or even reasonable ????

(Corrected percentage increase!) DOH!

?

How about that.....Inland Environment is gonna make a killing on this Loco and they won't even have to turn a key.

Maybe they'll push the "value" to $50,000 before the end of the extension.

aterry11 posted:

Scrapp  Is at a real low....   60.00 a ton.. So whats that engine weigh?

Reportedly about 190,000 in its present condition.

Don't believe that much in scrap value based on current market.

Exactly, especially since it is NOT "processed scrap", i.e. SOMEONE needs to expend LOTS of money to "cut it up"!

Sounds like Inland Environment got wind of the news that money was being raised so they decided to milk the "enthusiasts".

Time to call their bluff and tell them, "The money's been raised but this loco is too expensive.  You can have this loco and we'll go buy another."  THEN see what the real price is.

Something smells.  How much was the contract between Port Arthur and Inland Environments, an asbestos abatement company? 

Hot Water posted:

aterry11 posted:

Scrapp  Is at a real low....   60.00 a ton.. So whats that engine weigh?

Reportedly about 190,000 in its present condition.

Don't believe that much in scrap value based on current market.

Exactly, especially since it is NOT "processed scrap", i.e. SOMEONE needs to expend LOTS of money to "cut it up"!

 

The initial "guestimate" of $17,700 is 3+ times the $60/ton price, based on a weight of 190,000 lbs.

Also, Jason said in the podcast episode that the tender is leaking crude oil. Presumably, Inland Environmetal gets to walk away from that problem as well.

This new "scrap value" of $35,000 sounds like the contractor has decided to gouge the preservationists, BIG TIME.

The problem boils down to this.  The scrapper agreed to sell the locomotive at "scrap value".  We assumed approx. $150 a ton which is the retail scrap price that you and I would get if we took scrap steel to a scrap yard.  However, scrap yards sell that scrap to mills and get much higher prices than what we would get. This guy isn't selling to another scrap yard, he is selling the the mills so what he can get is much higher. 

You have to remember, last week when the initial contact was made with the scrapper we had no money to work with and all we had was a verbal commitment to sell at "scrap value".  We assumed the wrong value aqnd due to the three day weekend couldn't get confirmation with the scrapper until now.  

The locomotive and tender weighs 254,000 lbs. by our best estimate.   

Farmer_Bill posted:

Something smells.  How much was the contract between Port Arthur and Inland Environments, an asbestos abatement company? 

One article stated that the contract let by the city was under $25,000, meaning it could be handled administratively and did not have to go through the City Council and public hearings.

Rick Rowlands posted:

The locomotive and tender weighs 254,000 lbs. by our best estimate.   

Thanks for the explanation, Rick. 

That makes more sense.

Nice to see the OGF has this topic posted.I sent in some money to help too.

Donation sent. Feels good to help.

Everyone who has donated, THANK YOU! We are going to make this work one way or another! 

I just made a small donation. I hope you guys can save her. Good luck Rick.

Donation made! It's great to see the hobby come together like this.

Even with the GoFundMe amount being changed from $50,000 to $65,000, the money keeps rolling in.  As of Wednesday at 11:30 AM, the amount is over $60,000 raised.  I hope any extra funds, if there are any, go into stabilization once no. 503 gets to her next address. 

BTW, I also made a contribution.  

Haven't seen anything like this before. Makes you think what other steam locos could be saved if threatened with scrap. 

Small donation made.

Can't let this opportunity to be part of something bigger get away.

Wow, it's really nice to see that there's only $2890.00 left to be raised before they hit there mark, great job to all who have donated including myself! 

Looks like it just might happen.  I threw some dollars on the pile.

Kent in SD

I put in. Fingers crossed.

missing $562 at this point. Hope they get more to help restore it. 

Goal met...and then some.

Nick and Jason has a personal message for everyone supporting the 503 campaign:
Save the 503 Update

My friend sent me this:

“Fwd: So the steam engine donated to the city that laid abandoned and neglected by the city for 60 years that the city PAID a contractor 25,000 to scrap in a hurry, that had 65,000 raised in a week to " save" has suddenly been reclaimed by the same stupid city in an emergency closed door counsel meeting“

Just curious but is this true? 

http://portarthurtx.swagit.com/play/02272018-1226/14/

Costs for abatement "somewhere between $200k and $250k".  

The one guy said it would cost $45,000 to lay a section of track and move the engine forward enough to remediate the soil under it. Seriously? Where are these numbers coming from?

I'm calling BS. You get more oil off the road after a rain storm than anyone would from the engine. Someone has a secret agenda here.

smd4 posted:

The one guy said it would cost $45,000 to lay a section of track and move the engine forward enough to remediate the soil under it. Seriously? Where are these numbers coming from?

Not unlike many things these days - they made them up!

Clarence Siman posted:

I'm calling BS. You get more oil off the road after a rain storm than anyone would from the engine.

So,,,,,,you are comparing the "oil off the road" to the Bunker C heavy stuff that has apparently been leaking out of the locomotive's tender (since the 1950s)?

Someone has a secret agenda here.

Hey, all that oil was IN the ground to begin with!

     The councilman said that at no time did city council decide the disposition of the locomotive and is claiming it to be a council decision.  He also failed to mention any Texas state imposed EPA deadlines.  The video cut off at his question of being open to public hearings.  

Yea, just spend 45k to extend the track, grease it and drag it forward!

Pete S

Normally the proper way for a city to remove something of value, is to put it up for bid with a "must be removed by"  time restriction. Highest bidder gets the train and removes it. If no one bids on it, then action would be taken to have to pay someone to remove it. That action would also go up for bid. Lowest bidder would get the job and charge their bid to remove it. After watching the video of the meeting, it looks like no decision has ever been made. Was the comment about the contractor that received $25,000.00 for removal fact or fiction?  

Clarence Siman posted:

I'm calling BS. You get more oil off the road after a rain storm than anyone would from the engine. Someone has a secret agenda here.

The secret is that you were not informed of the situation.  The oil bunker in the tender has some fuel oil in it and has a slow leak which has saturated the ground under the tender with oil.

Please, get the facts first!

PETE S posted:

     The councilman said that at no time did city council decide the disposition of the locomotive and is claiming it to be a council decision.  He also failed to mention any Texas state imposed EPA deadlines.  The video cut off at his question of being open to public hearings.  

Yea, just spend 45k to extend the track, grease it and drag it forward!

Pete S

No Council did not make the decision because expenditures under $25,000 do not need Council approval.  The bid came in at $24,000.  Who can abate a locomotive and remediate soil and include enough of a profit margin to make it worth your while for $24,000?  Nobody can.  But add in the $35,000 value of the locomotive as scrap and it can be done.  

Now that environmental cleanup contract DOES exist.  Council is acting as if it does not for some reason.  

Rick,

The councilman claims  council jurisdiction over the transaction.  Whether he is correct or not, I have no idea. Has ownership transferred?  Can council void the cleanup contract or is this just political grandstanding?

Pete S

Rick, did this start out as an undisclosed movement within a city department, making the decision on their own without the involvement of the council, to remove it? I could understand the expenditure rule which is normally for repairs, maintenance and upgrades to city property, but the removal of city property would have to go through the council and be voted on. They represent the people and the people of the city own the engine. Was it ever put up for bid to sell, with no bids received, before putting it up for bid to remove?  Done right the sale would help raise the money for soil clean up. Someone needs to suggest an appraisal of the engine, to the council, then proceed from there. At least then if it's put up for bid the high bidder can be approached by the fund raisers and the money donated to them "if" the buyer has plans to restore it and after the restoration actually begins.

Anyone attempting to understand the rules and policies of the City of Port Arthur without first hand experience and insight as to how the internal working of the city government as well as the politics of the city council is likely comparing apples to oranges.   Not to mention residents, media, of Port Arthur are likely reading this and other rail preservation minded forums.  

I prefer to let Jason and company, who know better than anyone what is going on, to do their best.  It sounds like the locomotive is safe at this point, even if it stays in PA because the local community has had a reawakening in their past.  How is that anything but a win?  

If that happens, I personally, will trust Jason to hold the funds for the next "need to move it in 24 hours or else" project (of which there are many!).

Bob

So, how was the town going to deal with this ridiculous clean-up project prior to the big fund-raising campaign?  Methinks we've been duped into paying their bills for them, the engine having been a smoke-screen.

There is a good reason I had never contributed to one of the GoFundMe campaigns before, and I'm pretty sure this episode has convinced me I never will again.

I still hope that the engine survives, but a pox upon this town's authorities.

Bonus Thought for the Day: 

How do you know a politician is lying?

His lips are moving.

In the OP, Rick stated it was sold and the money was to purchase it from the buyer. Then the purchase price started increasing. The meeting sounds like the city still owns it. What's going on here Rick?

palallin posted:

So, how was the town going to deal with this ridiculous clean-up project prior to the big fund-raising campaign? 

????... they were going to pay a contractor $24k.  The source of the pollution disappears,  the dirty dirt and rock disappears with clean dirt and fresh grass seed.   The contractor sells the scrap.  

What isn't there to understand with that transaction?  The mid-level government employee was likely patting themselves on the back for coming up with a out-of-the-box solution that was quick and easy.  

bbunge posted:

palallin posted:

So, how was the town going to deal with this ridiculous clean-up project prior to the big fund-raising campaign? 

????... they were going to pay a contractor $24k.  The source of the pollution disappears,  the dirty dirt and rock disappears with clean dirt and fresh grass seed.   The contractor sells the scrap.  

What isn't there to understand with that transaction?  The mid-level government employee was likely patting themselves on the back for coming up with a out-of-the-box solution that was quick and easy.  

The "Pollution" issue is a farce.

And we have contributed $65,000, if you please.

Bait-and-Switch.  False Advertising.  Shell Game.  Con.

The gov't employee is patting himself on the back for swindling people into paying for their illusory problem, and we have no guarantee the engine will end up saved, anyway.

palallin posted

The "Pollution" issue is a farce.

 

And you know this how?  Just wondering?

That is why nobody should donate to a go-fund me page. Too many of them are nothing but scams.

Dave

There may be ideal expectations on how this should all happen, but contracts and government and such are hard to navigate. It will take time for this to play out. It appears to me, for the moment, that there is a genuine effort behind this endeavor as there is no true evidence of intentional mismanagement - just arm chair grumblers.

OP: The City of Port Arthur, Texas has sold their park display locomotive, Louisiana & Arkansas No. 503 for scrap.  That fact was not learned until it had already been sold, and now a bunch of railfans/modelers/railroaders etc. are getting together and pooling our money to purchase the locomotive and move it to someplace safe.  

According to the OP, "it has been sold". So the city no longer owns it. Or was that just a lie. Everyone has the right to grumble if it was.

david1 posted:

That is why nobody should donate to a go-fund me page. Too many of them are nothing but scams.

Dave

In this case however, you are dead WRONG!

alcors110 posted:

I just donated as well. Scrapping a steam locomotive in 2018 should never happen. Where is the respect of history sometimes?

I have always thought that the scrape craze after ww2.Was a big mistake this country has lost a lot of history thanks to scraping!!!I hope she is saved.

Dave Zucal posted:

pooling our money 

Since when did the donations of individuals become the money of the entire rail fan population?

david1 posted:

That is why nobody should donate to a go-fund me page. Too many of them are nothing but scams.

Dave

In this case, it was created by a known trustworthy individual with a track record of working on steam locomotives successfully. If the folks at TVRM or Strasburg or Black Hill Central had done this; would you still be making that statement about donating? In the end it all comes down to doing your research on the organization and the people who have set up the campaign. 

hullmat991 posted:

david1 posted:

That is why nobody should donate to a go-fund me page. Too many of them are nothing but scams.

Dave

In this case, it was created by a known trustworthy individual with a track record of working on steam locomotives successfully. If the folks at TVRM or Strasburg or Black Hill Central had done this; would you still be making that statement about donating? In the end it all comes down to doing your research on the organization and the people who have set up the campaign. 

EXACTLY!!!!!      That was just another case of a "toy train guy" posting to a thread subject on the Real Trains Forum, when he knows NOTHING about the subject nor the people involved.

HULLMAT991, the initials OP stands for Original Poster. Pooling our money statement came from the OP who is helping to pool the funds needed to save this loco, not me. 

Hot Water posted:

hullmat991 posted:

david1 posted:

That is why nobody should donate to a go-fund me page. Too many of them are nothing but scams.

Dave

In this case, it was created by a known trustworthy individual with a track record of working on steam locomotives successfully. If the folks at TVRM or Strasburg or Black Hill Central had done this; would you still be making that statement about donating? In the end it all comes down to doing your research on the organization and the people who have set up the campaign. 

EXACTLY!!!!!      That was just another case of a "toy train guy" posting to a thread subject on the Real Trains Forum, when he knows NOTHING about the subject nor the people involved.

Nice ad hominem argument there, sir.

However, it doesn't change the facts that the goal posts keep moving, that the engine is far from saved, that there is a great deal of money involved that doesn't seem to have any definite purpose, and that the people involved in organizing this effort are calling for yet more help (I got the email today from them) for what was advertised as a sure-thing, slam-dunk, in-the-pocket project.

Too little information is being made public on all sides.

I *really* want to be proven wrong; I *really* want that engine to be saved.  But it sure doesn't look likely, and nothing I have seen of or from the organizers does anything to allay my misgivings.

Dave Zucal posted:

HULLMAT991, the initials OP stands for Original Poster. Pooling our money statement came from the OP who is helping to pool the funds needed to save this loco, not me. 

My apologies. I misunderstood the post. 

Hot Water posted:

hullmat991 posted:

david1 posted:

That is why nobody should donate to a go-fund me page. Too many of them are nothing but scams.

Dave

In this case, it was created by a known trustworthy individual with a track record of working on steam locomotives successfully. If the folks at TVRM or Strasburg or Black Hill Central had done this; would you still be making that statement about donating? In the end it all comes down to doing your research on the organization and the people who have set up the campaign. 

EXACTLY!!!!!      That was just another case of a "toy train guy" posting to a thread subject on the Real Trains Forum, when he knows NOTHING about the subject nor the people involved.

My post was not on the engine itself but on the way they had to raise money. Using go-fund me pages are tricky and is rife with fraud. 

Besides Hot you know nothing about what I know or don't know. Sometimes it is best to MYOB

Dave