Weak reservations on Sunset 3rd Rail SD40-2

Scott Kay posted:

Mike CT posted:

Eventually one considers the cost.   May be one of the most expensive, plastic, molded diesels available.   Price is up another $50 or so dollars beyond the SD 7/9 models.  West coast premium shipping to here in the east also adds considerable cost. 

??? Are we approaching that $1,000 plastic diesel in a box??? 

Yes, the price of plastic models is going up and will continue to climb.  Chinese labor costs are steadily climbing upward, especially for highly skilled labor that design 3D CAD models used for CNC machining of injection molds.  Wages for machine operators making the actual molds are steadily climbing as well.  Auto makers such as BMW and Mercedes have built state of the art factories in China to build higher end autos for the Chinese market since the buying power of the Chinese workforce has grown so much and has so much future growth potential.  Even Ferrari sales are through the roof in China.  Our quest for RTR equipment doesn’t help much either, labor to assemble the finished models is getting more expensive as well, usually due to the extensive turnover as workers become more skilled they leave to different companies, so the model manufactures have to constantly train new workers all the time and this is expensive.  Worker safety is on the rise as well – look and see how many older You Tube videos of labor working in Chinese steel mills, die cast factories with molten vats of zinc,  and spinning machine tools (lathes, mills) where workers are not even wearing closed shoes (mostly sandals) , let alone safety glasses – this is changing.  The net effect are price increases passed down to the consumer to pay for this.

Except for reruns of old tooling, the day of the new grass roots $500 Atlas Master level O Scale plastic locomotive is over.  If Atlas were to release a new Master Line diesel locomotive, the price will be near what 3rd Rail is charging for their currently road-specific models ($650 - $700).   I’m sure this is one of the reasons Atlas is reluctant to jump into making a new grass roots O Scale locomotive model, it is a big gamble to invest close to half a million dollars in tooling in a model that may not pay dividends due to its high upfront investment cost to produce and reluctance of the market to absorb these new higher prices.  Therefore, the safe bet is to continue to rerun old tooling that has already paid for itself many times over.  Also, Atlas needs to recoup their investment for the acquisitions of their share of Weaver and all of BLMA (HO, N Scale).  Therefore, the Atlas factories have plenty of Weaver and BLMA product to run so the need for a new grass roots model to fill factory production is not really high on their to-do list.  3rd Rail seems to sell more than it can make with the models they produce as shown by the reruns of the recent E and F unit release so the SD40-2 delay really does not impact any of their factory production obligations either and probably buys some design time for other models that have full reservations.  Moral of the story... pay them now or pay them later because the price isn’t going down.

Scott Kay

Austin, TX

Well said but something nobody is considering  is 3d printing. If you go on Shapways you will find that people are already creating engines in N, HO, and even O scale.  As the technology gets better there may come a time when somebody wakes up and realize that if the components can be had. (Because right now you can't purchase powered trucks) It would be conceivable to build to order in real time or at the very least build your own.

bob2 posted:

You need to check out postings on the 3-rail scale and 027 forums. A surprising subset of the 3-rail crowd is now counting rivets, big time.  Woe to the supplier who puts the wrong bell on an SD-9!

I would call it rivet counting but just like the 2R we want things as accurate too. Scott proved that if you build it they will come with the SD9s. Same as the PAs, E8s, F7s, FTs, it just might be that there are just too many out there now. Now my first were the FTs, and when the SD9s were announced I jump right on them and they were well worth the wait.. Unfortunately the SD40-2 were past my era otherwise I would of ordered them too in BN. 

It says a lot that the 3rd Rail engines are the hottest topics on the forum currently. Complaints, admirations, suggestions....whatever. everything else is just kinda blah!

"It says a lot that the 3rd Rail engines are the hottest topics on the forum currently. Complaints, admirations, suggestions....whatever. everything else is just kinda blah!"

Your dead right about that I am going to wait for a couple of weeks till all this dies down before I post anymore Steel Mill photos nobody would look at them unless I said something about Locomotives!

I'll come back in a couple of weeks. Roo.

---->SUZUKOVICH

You spoke about 3D printing; I can tell you that my own SD 40 is ready for! it's not for tomorrow because I have other things to do, but the whole design is done and all parts are drawn! it's another further challenge but it's not impossible to do.

Here are some shots:

(2 motors/truck; central axle is dummy).

Some parts are not on the last drawing; they will come from PSC (hoses, stanchions,...etc).

ATLAS and 3rd Rail will certainly do a better work than me but it's also the pleasure of conceiving and making oneself!

jpv in France

For weak responses for orders, this topic seems to be generating a lot of interest...

jpv69 posted:

---->SUZUKOVICH

You spoke about 3D printing; I can tell you that my own SD 40 is ready for! it's not for tomorrow because I have other things to do, but the whole design is done and all parts are drawn! it's another further challenge but it's not impossible to do.

Here are some shots:

(2 motors/truck; central axle is dummy).

Some parts are not on the last drawing; they will come from PSC (hoses, stanchions,...etc).

ATLAS and 3rd Rail will certainly do a better work than me but it's also the pleasure of conceiving and making oneself!

jpv in France

 

I already see a side benefit:  separate cab sections, and pilots for kit bash and fixed pilot conversions for current shells and engines. In addition the possibility of producing the -3 cab and nose.  Please post as I would think this would be a worthwhile thread.

Ahem, I would say use some of those parts and make a GP40-2 Phase II and Phase III [MTH has done the "Plain Jane" GP40]

http://www.trainweb.org/jaydeet/gp40-2.htm

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...ly=16775698455207186

Mojave Mike posted:

For weak responses for orders, this topic seems to be generating a lot of interest...

Probably because opinions, theories, and suggestions are cheaper than an actual reservation.  

Jpv, you are so showing what can be done now. You are leading the way!

Dan Weinhold

Thanks Dan, I think that within one or two years, we will find affordable and accurate 3D printers on the market! today, it's a little bit too expensive to have these 2 capacities!

----> SUZUKOVICH:

1- what is a "-3 cab and nose"?

2- I don't know if the parts I have drawn are compatible with products from MTH, ATLAS and others; they are made for my model...but it would be nice to have some parts to kit bash other engines; this is a good idea to be investigated!

I will post later about this diesel engine; this is not the subject here!

For your information: all the drawings are made with SKETCHUP software (free version) and some easy and useful plug-in.

jpv in France

jpv69 posted:

Thanks Dan, I think that within one or two years, we will find affordable and accurate 3D printers on the market! today, it's a little bit too expensive to have these 2 capacities!

----> SUZUKOVICH:

1- what is a "-3 cab and nose"? 

CSX and NS began rebuilding their SD40-2 to Dash 3 with new cab and nose among other things 

http://wvncrails.weebly.com/sd...-new-locomotive.html

https://www.wabtec.com/documen...t-freight-locomotive

SD40-2

SD40-3

2- I don't know if the parts I have drawn are compatible with products from MTH, ATLAS and others; they are made for my model...but it would be nice to have some parts to kit bash other engines; this is a good idea to be investigated! As long as the are 1/48 they should work

I will post later about this diesel engine; this is not the subject here!

For your information: all the drawings are made with SKETCHUP software (free version) and some easy and useful plug-in.

jpv in France

Ah, ok! thanks! big difference ; more angular!

The parts are 1/48; I was speaking about how to put them together. For exemple, on my 3D drawings, the chassis and the front part are 2 pieces; perhaps only one on a MTH model....and not the same material! but all is possible to fit!

jpv in France

Its about making it work.

CBQer posted:

suzukovich posted:

Here is a thought. If the length of the SD40-2 and the FP or FP45 are the same. Why not offer both as the chassis would be common between the two. Personally I would like to see an U25C or U28C phase 1 as many were used by a variety of roads. As for more modern the DASH 8 would be a good start since it is rooted in the U28C phase 2 new car body. 

The next issue as I see it is the limited roads after 73. CONRAIL , SCL, Cheesie System, NW, and Southern in the east. BN, CNW, I, SOO Line in the Midwest,  and ATSF, SP, UP, and Western Pacific in the west. The list gets smaller by the 90s CSX, Norfolk Southern, BNSF, and UP. So I can see other issues for modeling modern engines.

Don't forget Milwaukee.

 

I left The Milwaukee Road out because by the late sixties it was owned by UP.  But did forget Illinois Central Gulf and MoPac.

suzukovich posted:

 

I left The Milwaukee Road out because by the late sixties it was owned by UP.  But did forget Illinois Central Gulf and MoPac.

I don't recall the UP ever owning the Milwaukee Road.  Otherwise I don't think the SOO would have been able to buy the MILW in 1986.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

suzukovich posted:

 

I left The Milwaukee Road out because by the late sixties it was owned by UP.  But did forget Illinois Central Gulf and MoPac.

I don't recall the UP ever owning the Milwaukee Road.  Otherwise I don't think the SOO would have been able to buy the MILW in 1986.

Rusty

My mistake for some reason I keep thinking the Milwaukee road was under the UP due to the passenger trains were using up color scheme.  Anyway Yes SOO Line did buy parts of the Milwaukee road.  CMC which was the holding company had to sell off everything else. They too filled for bankruptcy. 

Saddest thing was flying from Coeur d'Alene through the mountains the year after they abandoned the western electrified line.  I was low enough to see the ghosts of F-Ms and Bi-Polars.

suzukovich posted:

CBQer posted:

suzukovich posted:

Here is a thought. If the length of the SD40-2 and the FP or FP45 are the same. Why not offer both as the chassis would be common between the two. Personally I would like to see an U25C or U28C phase 1 as many were used by a variety of roads. As for more modern the DASH 8 would be a good start since it is rooted in the U28C phase 2 new car body. 

The next issue as I see it is the limited roads after 73. CONRAIL , SCL, Cheesie System, NW, and Southern in the east. BN, CNW, I, SOO Line in the Midwest,  and ATSF, SP, UP, and Western Pacific in the west. The list gets smaller by the 90s CSX, Norfolk Southern, BNSF, and UP. So I can see other issues for modeling modern engines.

Don't forget Milwaukee.

 

I left The Milwaukee Road out because by the late sixties it was owned by UP.  But did forget Illinois Central Gulf and MoPac.

I just read an article about the Milwaukee. It did not state anything about UP other than some joint ownership of a yard out west and some joint trackage but no ownership. There was a decade long attempt to merge the C&NW and the Milwaukee in the 60s. There was an agreement if the Milwaukee wanted to use UP trackage in the Chicago area, it would agree to paint E units in UP colors.

Dick

CBQer posted:

suzukovich posted:

CBQer posted:

suzukovich posted:

Here is a thought. If the length of the SD40-2 and the FP or FP45 are the same. Why not offer both as the chassis would be common between the two. Personally I would like to see an U25C or U28C phase 1 as many were used by a variety of roads. As for more modern the DASH 8 would be a good start since it is rooted in the U28C phase 2 new car body. 

The next issue as I see it is the limited roads after 73. CONRAIL , SCL, Cheesie System, NW, and Southern in the east. BN, CNW, I, SOO Line in the Midwest,  and ATSF, SP, UP, and Western Pacific in the west. The list gets smaller by the 90s CSX, Norfolk Southern, BNSF, and UP. So I can see other issues for modeling modern engines.

Don't forget Milwaukee.

 

I left The Milwaukee Road out because by the late sixties it was owned by UP.  But did forget Illinois Central Gulf and MoPac.

I just read an article about the Milwaukee. It did not state anything about UP other than some joint ownership of a yard out west and some joint trackage but no ownership. There was a decade long attempt to merge the C&NW and the Milwaukee in the 60s. There was an agreement if the Milwaukee wanted to use UP trackage in the Chicago area, it would agree to paint E units in UP colors.

Dick

Don't forget their passenger equipment was also in UP colors. Saw it all the time as a kid growing up in Chicago. Especially at Union Station. In 1955 the Milwaukee Road assumed the joint operations of UP City of Los Angeles and other UP West coast Passenger trains from Chicago. This was the reason for the eventual change to UP livery for the passenger trains.  Also as a side note, they petioned to join the BN merger but was turned down. Did a little quick reading too. The BN thing was interesting. 

Hello Dick:

You got the idea correct but I think you reversed owners if I understand your answer below:

“There was an agreement if the Milwaukee wanted to use UP track age in the Chicago area, it would agree to paint E units in UP colors”.

It was the UP that wanted to use the Milwaukee track in the Chicago area, not the Milwaukee needing to use the UP track as there was no UP track to Chicago. UP used C&NW track from Council Bluffs (Omaha) to get to Chicago.

The reason UP wanted to use Milwaukee track was to solve a disagreement the UP and C&NW were having at the time (not sure of the exact details or reasons on that).

Charlie

I think the SD40-3 would without a doubt bring reservations up.  Lionel and MTH haven't done it and it has staying power in a modern modellers fleet.

Have SD40-2 ever pulled a passenger train?  Why yes, recently in fact.  All the way from Albuquerque NM to Los Angeles.

BNSF SD40-2 pulling Southwest Chief

That was just yesterday too!  Although racing the SW Chief is a bit of a stretch.  I'm not sure if the mainline near Kingman is class 5 track or not on that stretch.  I'll have to ask my Amtrak engineer friend who operates that segment.  Nice shot though!

rdunniii posted:

Have SD40-2 ever pulled a passenger train?  Why yes, recently in fact.  All the way from Albuquerque NM to Los Angeles.

BNSF SD40-2 pulling Southwest Chief

So from the caption if I understand. The AMTRAK engines were broke and BNSF to the rescue. One interesting thing to note was the size difference between the SD40-2 and the AMTRAK engines. 

suzukovich posted:

rdunniii posted:

Have SD40-2 ever pulled a passenger train?  Why yes, recently in fact.  All the way from Albuquerque NM to Los Angeles.

BNSF SD40-2 pulling Southwest Chief

So from the caption if I understand. The AMTRAK engines were broke and BNSF to the rescue. One interesting thing to note was the size difference between the SD40-2 and the AMTRAK engines. 

Those Amtrak GE units are full width carbody, and long because of the HEP generator & 480 volt electrical equipment in the rear end. The SD40-2 is a narrow carbody, and a simple freight unit.

I know it's a simple freight unit. I was just commenting on the size even with the porch, it's dinky compared to the AMTRAK units and still strong enough to pull that entire train. 

The freight gearing helps on the SD40-2 and Amtrak trains are relatively light compared to freight trains.  One Genesis unit can pull a normal long distance Amtrak train in a pinch.  I was on the Southwest Chief around 1989 when one of the F40PHs died.  The other locomotive managed to do all the work without a helper, it just caused issues on the grades and slowed us down.  The train chief at the time said it would have been slower to have a Santa Fe helper because the freight locomotive in the consist would have reduced the speed limit for the train.

I still think a GP40-2 would do better.  Hasn't been done in brass in 15+ years and the MTH one is pathetically bad.

A GP38 , GP40 or the -2 versions should be something for 3rd Rail to consider. Many railroads converted to the GP38 or GP40 in the late 60s, and the -2 versions came in the mid 70s. They became about as ubiquitous as the F-units during the 50s. The railroad names and paint schemes would almost be unlimited for several runs. 

I feel the cost should stay around $600 per unit, though, to keep them affordable for people purchase 2-3 (or more) versions. I think the SD40-2 cost of $700 or more unit will promote single or at the most 2 unit sales if cost remains a deciding factor.

I remember the Family Lines / Seaboard System SD40-2 locomotives well, and would like to own 2-3 in different schemes, but cannot justify the cost at this time. 

With all the expectations that have been placed on the specific details for these models, I don't believe $600 a unit is achievable anymore.  The expectation seems to be Key quality at Lionel Vision Line pricing.  It is always a tough battle because where does one compromise on the model?  The compromises of the past have been thoroughly trashed on previous models.  Granted not everyone will be fully satisfied. 

Just like the construction industry cost is cost and economy of scale dictates cost.   The question always ends up, what gets taken out?  What is the level of compromise one is willing to make to bring the cost down?  I would argue that $700 a unit is a very fair price for a road specific detailed model that also has the quality of engineering built into the drive including the large can motor, horizontal drive, and ball bearings on all the axles.  The quality of sound on these now is very comparable to anything on the market with the new systems being used.

These will never be 1000 unit runs as much as that would be awesome.   That could conceivable bring down the cost.

A GP40-2 would be a desirable model though for all the reasons listed above.  As always it comes down to reservations.

I agree with everything written.  But on the 3RS or 3R side I think reservations are slow due to $730 a pop, $1460 for a pair.   And it was very common to see these in triples.  It is just too much money.  Not for what you get, but the prices are leaving the 3R or 3RS modeler behind.

Eccentric Crank posted:

I agree with everything written.  But on the 3RS or 3R side I think reservations are slow due to $730 a pop, $1460 for a pair.   And it was very common to see these in triples.  It is just too much money.  Not for what you get, but the prices are leaving the 3R or 3RS modeler behind.

Interesting thought.  I wonder if a discount price for buying three units in the same road would help with getting this project to the starting line?

E6's in 2 rail will be my last train order for some time. Id rather buy more houses than hoard money in my basement

When the SD9s were announced a lot of people jumped on board. If I remember correctly that the reservations were extended on them as well. The one thing that I believed helped was the constant conversations about them here on the forum. I would think that it might not be to late for Scott to make adjustments and say offer the dash 3 cab along with the dash 2. Another would be to offer the early road numbers on for the BN/C&S units that were built in the early seventies. With the SD9s he was constantly engaged here. I don't see that here. I think they will be made, but but if this thread becomes silent them they will be forgotten. 

We are in the heat of the moment working through the PA project with the factory finalizing designs so it can go to tooling.  It is time critical and there is lot of details to be resolved still. On top of that, 2nd run F7s and E8s, Harriman cars in O and HO, and the Sunset Limited are in production so there is Q/C to be done on those as well.  A lot to keep Scott more than occupied juggling all that!

I think you will see Scott chime in here soon after all this is resolved.

Eccentric Crank posted:

I agree with everything written.  But on the 3RS or 3R side I think reservations are slow due to $730 a pop, $1460 for a pair.   And it was very common to see these in triples.  It is just too much money.  Not for what you get, but the prices are leaving the 3R or 3RS modeler behind.

I don't think that's the issue. Although I will agree that when I purchased the three SD9s  and the one SD7 the 2800.00 price was an eye opener.  It could also help if maybe Scott offered some none powered units.

One more thing. I run 3RS and I am here following this discussion in the 2R forum. Maybe that's another issue that most 3R folks don't follow 2R Forum and just might not be aware of the issues.

People seem to be under the mistaken impression that size has much bearing on cost.  The builders in China charge virtually the same for 50 Big Boys as they do for 50 0-6-0s.  A project minimum today is ~$150K regardless of what is in it.  2 years ago it was ~$125K and 5 years ago ~$100K.  And in 2 years it will likely be $175K.  There are also minimums of what is in a project and a limited number of differences between what is in a project.  Scott has been negotiating with the builders to minimize the numbers and maximize the sub projects (which each physical variant is, to the builders) but that can only go so far.  So it will be $700 now and probably $800 in 2 years and $900 in 4 years for any diesels.  The prices for steam will be doing the same. 

rdunniii posted:

I still think a GP40-2 would do better.  Hasn't been done in brass in 15+ years and the MTH one is pathetically bad.

This looks pretty good to me.