Wheezing Hudson at moderate/fast speed

That’s a spur gear model Arnold, nothing like what John is experiencing......the sounds you’re hearing are most likely due to insufficient lube. Those locomotives are built exactly like their postwar predecessors. A heavier lubricant would be ideal IMO, especially if you desire to give the patrons on your RR whiplash at higher speeds. A good quality grease on the gears, and drops of oil on the shafts is important. Be sure to oil all shafts, armature, axles, and the shafts the spur gears sit on......hope that helps,.

Pat

Thanks, Pat, one of our Sponsors (will keep anonymous because the Sponsor already made a good faith effort to fix it) told me he  lubricated it to solve the problem, but it still weases.

Based on your post, maybe the Sponsor did not use the correct lubricants in all of the necessary places.

I Googled my engine and got more information. I believe it's a Lionel with Railsounds Product # 6-18042.

Here is a short video in which you can hear the weasing sound:

Arnold

Here is another video where you can hear the weasing:

Arnold

no question that's an armature lube issue in my opinion. But, that's my opinion

That's a Post War design 646/2046.  Definitely lube the armature shaft bearings.

Jon

Arnold....it's a lube problem....had the same problem took a while to find the problem...that sound is a shaft or axle "hunting"...keep at it......joe

I concur; I had a similar problem with a 224E and recently with a "fatwheel" Marx. It's probably the bearing in the brushplate. If oil or grease won't quiet it down try working in some Teflon or graphite. For mine I eventually replaced the bearings in both engines by drilling out the brushplate and installing a brass bushing.

Thanks Pat, Matt, Jon, Joe and John for your helpful advice.

What puzzles me is that there is no wheezing sound at all when the locomotive is run at slow speed. I just ran it slow while pulling my new Lionel heavyweight passenger cars and it ran fine. Does this change anyone's thoughts about the problem?

It seems to me that if there was insufficient or improper lubrication, there would still be some wheezing at slow speed as well as moderate and fast speed.

Arnold

@Arthur P. Bloom posted:

For the life of me, I couldn't figure out what you were all talking about. Then I got it!!!  What an amazing language, English, right? Someone ought to compile all the words in a list, with the correct spelling, and then figure out how to make that list available in a computer program, so that when you type a word, it somehow offers to correct the spelling!!! Then when people try to search for the topic, later on, they can find it and be helped by the answers. Just goin' out on a limb, here.

Arthur, after reading your comments, I immediately Googled the spelling of "wheezing" and now know that is the correct spelling.

Will change the spelling of that word in the title of this topic, etc.

Arnold, if you have a toothpick and some motor oil, you can cure this problem yourself. Lay her on her back in a towel or a cradle, put some motor oil in the cap of the bottle, pick some up with the toothpick, and drop it on the armature shaft ends. Use the toothpick to push on the shaft ends gently and work the shaft ends back and forth, ( they have a little play in them) this will work the oil into the bearing surfaces......it doesn’t have to be some super duper model train oil, ....whatever motor oil you have in your garage or workshop will suffice, ....5W-20, 10W-30, 10W-40,...whatever, they’ll get the job done,....

Pat

Pat, thank you!

Arnold

Arnold you've gotten lots of votes for additional lube.  After seeing what Pat did to Larry's Hudson I would definitely try his suggestions.

@Arnold D. Cribari posted:

Thanks Pat, Matt, Jon, Joe and John for your helpful advice.

What puzzles me is that there is no wheezing sound at all when the locomotive is run at slow speed. I just ran it slow while pulling my new Lionel heavyweight passenger cars and it ran fine. Does this change anyone's thoughts about the problem?

It seems to me that if there was insufficient or improper lubrication, there would still be some wheezing at slow speed as well as moderate and fast speed.

Arnold

Arnold...the dry shaft or axle would tend to flop around "HUNT" more at higher speeds....thus making noise...no noise at lower speeds...keep at it I had a time with a 224  took a while but I got it...joe

Arnold, don't be surprised if, after oiling the armature bearing, the sound returns at some point down the road. This merely points out the need to relube periodically. Remember, oil does dry up when an engine is left sitting for a long time!

I agree with most comments on here about the source of the problem being dry armature end bearings. That said, I have heard spur gears make a similar noise, but much less frequently - a drop or so on each of the spur gear shafts will address that.

The reason for this occurring at high speeds reveals itself with a close observation of the armature "bearing" hole though the brush plate. If you insert a 1/8" drill bit (the smooth end) into that hole and look closely, you will most likely see some wiggle room - not a good thing, since this allows the armature to "rattle" back and forth, side-to-side, creating the wheezing sound as you described it. The higher the speed of the armature, the more likely it is to set up this lateral motion due to minor imbalances, and suddenly the noise begins.

Should you find that the noise keeps reoccurring more often than you like, the cure will be a new brush plate (plus continued lube on a periodic basis.) Your brush plate assy is part number 6008702132 and appears to be available from Lionel for $7.50 + shpg.

The above photo from Lionel's parts page reveals something interesting - it appears that Lionel added a metal bearing for the armature shaft on this newer version. So if you do end up getting a new one, with proper lubing, it should last for a very long time!

Arnold: FYI - I own the same 'conventional' #618 engine, the product number for which is 6-18042 that Lionel released in 1995.  I know that because it was the 1st or 2nd 'new' Lionel engine I bought after deciding to get back into the hobby that I'd long since forgotten since my childhood.  It came with the distinctive 'white wall' wheels and also the 'Funky' (grhh) sharply bent electrical cord (that I see in one of your photos) between the engine and tender which - initially - caused my engine to derail constantly, and prompted me to have someone rewire it to eliminate the sharp bend.  It's a nice little engine and, with its Pullmor motor, gives off the same 'coffee grinder' sound (even when properly lubricated) and ozone aroma that I remember as a child.  In particular, I've always found its whistle quite appealing as it's reminiscent of the real steam engines I used to observe trackside when I was a kid.

Arnold - Please note that the 'coffee grounder' sound I referred to was definitely NOT the same as your 'wheezing' sound.  (Guess I should have watched all your videos and read all the comments before posting my previous remarks.  You even figured out the product number yourself.  My Bad! )

All very helpful contributions. Thank you again.

This is one of my favorite engines. Terrific, realistic basic sounds, bell and horn,  excellent puffing smoke, and great appearance, IMO.

What I'm about to say is a joke: maybe I should take this engine to a good respiratory therapist (there is one among us on the Forum) to cure the wheezing. LOL, Arnold

@Arnold D. Cribari posted:

What puzzles me is that there is no wheezing sound at all when the locomotive is run at slow speed.

The sound you are hearing is due to a lack of lube, but not where everybody is sending you.  The backs of all of the gears need to have a thin film of Lucas Red 'N' Tacky #2 on them. Without the grease, a harmonic is set up causing at least one of the spur gears to vibrate at only certain speeds, which will vary depending on the load on the gear train.

Rob or anyone else that knows, I have a few questions that will show my ignorance, but I ask bec because my I've never used Red n Tack before.

I just bought a tube of it. On one end of the tube, it says "This End Into Gun First."

Do I need to get something like a gun that's used for caulking to apply the Red n Tacky to the gears?

For putting this product on the gears of a model train, it's obvious I only need to use a little bit. Should I use s toothpick or the tip of a small screw driver to apply it to the gears?

What do you recommend that I use to apply it to the gears?

Arnold

@Arnold D. Cribari posted:

Do I need to get something like a gun that's used for caulking to apply the Red n Tacky to the gears...  ...should I use a toothpick or the tip of a small screw driver to apply it to the gears?

No gun, no tool needed, serve right out of the tube. These are meant for grease guns(pump or pneumatic), no spouts or ratchets like caulking guns.  I have a round toothpick in each tube of the Lucas(I have 4 going). As the grease is used, I just cut down the tube with a utility knife to the level of the grease and keep using the white plastic cap it came with to cover.

Arnold, your tube will be fine, it's the same stuff. I bought a plastic jar with screw on lid - easier than keeping a caulking gun or a grease gun at the bench. I would just squirt some out into a screw top container, then have at it with a small screwdriver, or a toothpick, or even your fingers if they are long and pointy and you want to immerse yourself in the moment!!

George!

Arnold - Similar to you, I'm a neophyte when it comes to lubricating internal gears.  So what I noticed in Rob's comment was that he said to put the RnT on "The backs of all the gears..."  Consequently because he didn't say 'teeth' (instead of back) I'm saying to myself - "Huh" followed by...Surely he's not talking about the flat side of the gears, because that wouldn't serve any purpose IMO.

In my world a picture's worth a thousand words.  Once I'm shown how to do something properly I consider myself a quick learner, but initially (because I'm not mechanically-inclined) sometimes I have difficulty visualizing what people are explaining verbally.

PS - This is why I'm also a firm believer in the 'KISS' philosophy. (lol)

@PH1975 posted:

...Surely he's not talking about the flat side of the gears, because that wouldn't serve any purpose IMO...

Yet, I am. Try it, you'll like it!  And actually, a glob behind each gear would be ever better, but then it might sling off at high speed - so find a balance. @PH1975, it's not just for lubrication... read the reason above in prior post. It's for dampening.

The easiest way I think to get it behind the gear is with some type of needlepoint Oiler. You load the grease into the oiler and stick the needle behind the gear and get it in there. I understand what Rob is saying that gear rattles around you'll see it's a little loose On its shaft.

@PH1975 posted:

Arnold - Similar to you, I'm a neophyte when it comes to lubricating internal gears.  So what I noticed in Rob's comment was that he said to put the RnT on "The backs of all the gears..."  Consequently because he didn't say 'teeth' (instead of back) I'm saying to myself - "Huh" followed by...Surely he's not talking about the flat side of the gears, because that wouldn't serve any purpose IMO.

PS - This is why I'm also a firm believer in the 'KISS' philosophy. (lol)

PH ,  I think since the back of the gears move against the truck housing and the axles the gears ride on that they

might benefit by the application of grease.     It probably would also cut down on the harmonic noise too.  !?! 🤔

Not sure , but so far all my MTH engines don't seem to have any " wheezing " issues.

@Dallas Joseph posted:

I think since the back of the gears move against the truck housing and the axles the gears ride on that they might benefit by the application of grease.     It probably would also cut down on the harmonic noise too.  !?! 🤔

Yes!

@Dallas Joseph posted:

...so far all my MTH engines don't seem to have any " wheezing " issues.

Which MTH engines have the parallel plate spur gear motors?

Rob, E-Unit-79 and Dallas - Thanks for the clarifications and Rob, after reading your first Post I even googled Harmonic Vibration .

As Jim Carrey would say - 'Alrighty then!'  

Seriously though, in the past I've gone on line and seen various plastic lube dispensers one can buy with needlepoint tips (as E-Unit has alluded to) and since I already use LaBelle oils which have these (and coincidentally I just finished a bottle) I'll try using it to apply grease into tight spaces such as this.

Thanks again everyone for all of the comments!

@E-UNIT-79 posted:

The easiest way I think to get it behind the gear is with some type of needlepoint Oiler. You load the grease into the oiler and stick the needle behind the gear and get it in there.

Skip the oil, use the Lucas. I pack the Lucas into a plastic syringe when I need to get it into a tight spot, but for this use, the point of the toothpick works fine. It doesn't need any great amount, just enough to smear the backsides of the gears.

@ADCX Rob posted:

Yes!

Which MTH engines have the parallel plate spur gear motors?

OK .........Rob .........

Just for S&G , show a photo .😉

@PH1975 posted:

Rob, E-Unit-79 and Dallas - Thanks for the clarifications and Rob, after reading your first Post I even googled Harmonic Vibration .

As Jim Carrey would say - 'Alrighty then!'  

Seriously though, in the past I've gone on line and seen various plastic lube dispensers one can buy with needlepoint tips (as E-Unit has alluded to) and since I already use LaBelle oils which have these (and coincidentally I just finished a bottle) I'll try using it to apply grease into tight spaces such as this.

Thanks again everyone for all of the comments!

Great suggestion, I have an empty LaBelle needle point applicator that I saved (pack rat that I am) and will also use it for the RnT.

I bought the RnT #2 today.

Is there any concern about applying too much RnT?

I don't care if any extra splatters all over the place and makes a mess.

The reason I ask is I already had a very reputable Forum Sponsor with a great reputation for fixing conventional O Gauge trains lubricate this engine, and the wheezing persisted, so I am inclined to put a lot of RnT #2 wherever you folks say it should go.

Arnold

@ADCX Rob posted:

Skip the oil, use the Lucas. I pack the Lucas into a plastic syringe when I need to get it into a tight spot, but for this use, the point of the toothpick works fine. It doesn't need any great amount, just enough to smear the backsides of the gears.

Thanks, Rob, but is it OK to apply plenty of it on the backsides of the gears?

@ADCX Rob posted:

Skip the oil, use the Lucas. I pack the Lucas into a plastic syringe when I need to get it into a tight spot, but for this use, the point of the toothpick works fine. It doesn't need any great amount, just enough to smear the backsides of the gears.

To get into tight spaces I cut off a piece of handrail from my  ' inventory drawer '  from an old steamer .   

I just dip it into the grease or oil . Not very much is needed.

Arnold - In response to me above - Rob says "to find a balance."  Regardless of how and how much you apply, please be sure to let all of us know how things turn out - as in a picture (ie. video) is worth a thousand words! 

I put RnT #2 on every gear I could access, but I could not get the shell off completely so I could get to and undo the brush plate and put the R&T on the armature shaft.

I'm afraid if I force it to get the shell off, I might break something. I took out every screw that I thought might hold the shell on.

Any thoughts?

Are there through bolts on this loco. Going from one side of the shell to the other. Not sure as I dont own 1

@E-UNIT-79 posted:

Are there through bolts on this loco. Going from one side of the shell to the other. Not sure as I dont own 1

Maybe, I don't know what a "through bolt" is.

This is as far as I got ti get the shell off:

There was a screw on top of the shell. Got it off. Hooray. Now back to the operating room.