Weaver - my first attempt.

Welcome.

I'm not sure about your Pittman situation-all of mine have been great.

There are many guys here who can help you figure this out.  I'm sure they'll come forward.

Nice looking locomotives by the way...

Hi and Welcome to O gauge and the forum.  I have many engines with Pittman motors.  They all run well with no problems.  

NH Joe

Thanks, Guys.

It ran sweetly on DC, but it doesn't like the PWM of the decoder.

Any ideas as to how to get the photos into the text?

Cheers

Max, 

Welcome to the forum!

Some PWM make the motor hum and hot. 

check the motor temp. if is too hot means the PWM is not doing a good job.

I have few of those pittman and they are working without a issue.

my 2 cents.

Andre.

Those Pittman Cans are super motors in my opinion.    Similar models of Pittmans used to be in many computer printers.   They would last for ever and even then you can salvage the motor when the printer wears out.

It might be something about the signal from that decoder, or even maybe it is set in "switching" mode and sending a modified DC signal that is pulsating.   

You get annoying humming when you run straight DC locos on DCC power.    So maybe the decoder is not passing on straight DC to the motor.

Max, which model of Loksound decoder are you using?

Also I have not found the need to add an idler on stock Weaver drives, but every Weaver Pittman drive I have seen had cracked sprockets causing very rough running and high load on the motor each time the crack comes around.

I use most of the tips and tricks here for smooth running:

https://bobsobol.smugmug.com/T...018664&k=jxLWMHq 

HTH    

Pete

There is a guy who goes by bob2 on the forum that knows quite a bit about Pitmans. Some are better suited than others. Hopefully he will turn up.

Simon

Hi Pete

I'm using a Loksound Select.  A commonly used decoder by members of the Loksound group, for O scale locos.  I've also used V 4's, but not this time.  I record my own sounds and make sound projects, so I'm very experienced with them.

I'll be very disappointed if it has cracked sprockets, as it's new; straight out of the box.  I'll tear it down and have a look anyway.

Thanks for the link.  I'll have a look.

Is there anywhere I can get help with my earlier question about the photos?

Cheers

Hi Andre

Which sound decoders are you using?

Cheers

Hi Simon

That guy could be the one in Pete's link.  I had a look at it.  Lots of good info there Pete.  If/when I sort the BEMF issue, I'll be having a closer look.

Cheers

To answer your question about photos, try this.  Within your posting box, type a little info and then add an attachment here, being sure to check the box so that all pictures are added within text before completing that upload.

Then, type a little more info and choose to add another attachment, doing all the same things you did for the first attachment.

After each attachment upload, you have to remember to check the box about inserting photo or video into the text of you message, and then click the "Finished" box which puts the picture into the message and takes you back to the Post Message or Post Reply screen.  Then, hit your keyboard "Enter" key and add more text as you choose.  Finally, remember to scroll down to the bottom of the Message or Reply box and press "Submit," and your info should look like above.

I used some pictures of our 30th anniversary vowel renewal in Hawaii last October to demonstrate.

Chuck

Thanks, Chuck.

I was going back to the spaces and trying to insert the photos then.  I'll have another go soon, using your instructions.  Looks like you had a great time. 

Thanks, Pete.

There's lots to check out there.  I appreciate your help.

The DC is regulated smooth.

Cheers

Max,

I am not running decoders I just running a remote control that basically is a decoder made by GML.

Crack gears will make hesitation at any speed, but more noticeable at low speeds.

As peter M say, rotate it manually and also disconnect the drive shaft from the motor and test the motor empty.

Andre. 

Thanks, Andre.

At least I will know what to look for, now.

I'm off to do some surgery. 

Cheers

The locomotive may be new to you but Weaver quit making that horizontal drive about 15 years ago so not really new.  My guess is that PD Hobbies http://pdhobbyshop.com is now the owner of that drive mechanism as they have been selling and supporting it ever since.

The idler idea has been around for a long time for the reasons you cite and it would be nice if Pat @ PD would make one available, but not so far.

"I'll be very disappointed if it has cracked sprockets, as it's new; straight out of the box."

  I'd be surprised if it doesn't have cracked gears. Unless someone has changed them it's almost a certainty. Get replacements and learn to install them is the normal solution. These drives are very easy to troubleshoot and repair.......DaveB 

Thanks, guys.

Looks like I've got a job ahead of me.

No wonder it was so cheap. 

Cheers

Thanks, I've ordered a new drive and a motor with ball bearings.

It's still a cheap loco and it will run well I'm sure, with the new drive.

Pat was very helpful by email.

Cheers

Well, looks like the loco is covered.

P&D is kind of local for me, but one of those shops that I can never seem to catch open. (Wild Bills too).

   In ten years, they've been closed every time I got there, and once I took a day off for it, and they had a slot or RC event going, and I couldn't get in to shop.

  I gave up trying to "catch" them. Good luck.

 The photos appear at the posts end, but can be cut and pasted into the text in the right spot.

 As you click on the photo, white parameter boxes will show, now cut and paste it to a new spot.

 If you don't check the "appear full sized in test", then they will only show as attachments at the bottom.

  Click the attachment options at the post bottom if you change your mind, or if you wanted a smaller version of the photo to appear(there are size choices there).

  Embed video with the "film strip" at the top.(You tube adds some code on occasion. Anything in front of "http" should be erased from the url or you will see the OGRF page in the preview instead, and it wont work.   

Thanks. 

PeteM said everything I would have said.  Pay attention to the motor number - the rare earth magnets are a significant improvement for two bucks more - and Pittman still sells the Alnico motors! 

Weaver cheaped out in two places - first, with motors, and then with non-aged plastic.  Using an Alnico motor with solid bearings in an application where radial force is applied is a no-no.  Charlie pIttman Jr. told me that personally.

Aging the plastic before machining is why NWSL and CLW gears rarely split.

Thanks Bob.

Max: I gotta know... Did you find cracked sprockets? I've been worrying for 2 weeks about this!  

Sorry Pete

I looked at the P&D offerings and bought the rebuild kit based on the improved motor.

I'll pull it apart today, I promise! - and get back to you.

Cheers

Hi Pete

I haven't disassembled the tower, but visually inspecting the sprockets with a super bright LED torch, shows no cracking in the sprockets.

Turning the drive by hand, it looks as though the teeth might have some rough edges, as the chain links look like they are catching on them.

When I had this problem with the P2K HO locos, often it was necessary to take the gears off the axles and force the cracks open using an O ring pick, before you could see them.

I really don't want to strip the drive until the kit arrives, so I might see more during the rebuild.

I hope that you can cope until then. 

Cheers

I'll keep taking my meds and hope to pull through...

On a more serious note, I did wonder f I saw a roll-pin through the top sprocket in your first picture. Maybe it's an "improved" version if so?

Also, I have found 3 other things that seem to apply to all my sets, based on Bob Sobol's excellent work.

1. The centre lines of the top and bottom shafts are not parallel. The top shaft's boss seems to have been angled down a little in the tower design. This causes the chain to always be pulling at an angle to the teeth, no matter how well you align top and bottom sprockets. Definitely a cause of constant hum/noise. 
2. The sprocket boss is too narrow on one side. This means the chain sticks out beyond it and rubs on the washers supplied. Definitely a cause of constant hum/noise. Bob S made some top-hat washers to create clearance - see his pics on Smugmug. I don't have his skills and equipment, so I use sleeves cut from brass tubing between the sprocket boss and washer.  
3. Some replacement sprockets are cast not machined, and have the mould halves mis-aligned so the teeth are too wide for the chain. I don't think you have this issue though.

Apart from that, it's a great drive system!    

Cheers,

Pete

Hi Pete

Thanks for all of that.  I expect the kit to arrive this week  P&D are not great communicators, so I'm watching and waiting.  I'm used to that in South Oz.

I'll sit down with all your advice points and hopefully make a good fist of it.  Having an engineering background, I agree with your assessment that it is potentially a good drive.

In the meantime, I'm plugging away building my new layout, so I'll have somewhere to run it. 

Cheers  (I hope the photo works)

Just an update, so you know I'm still alive. 

I ordered the drive kit from P&D on August 19th, but so far it hasn't arrived.  Pat is working on it from his end, as well as me from mine - but after all this time, I think it's lost.

Pat has offered to send me a replacement.  I think that's the way it will end up going.

Good service.

Cheers

Hello,

On your last photo, is it made for a pier or something like a harbor?

And, for me who is far away from your country, what is "SouthOz"?

Hi JPV

The scenario is a waterfront with an ocean going tug boat moored to the dock.  I'm thinking of doing a thread on it as I build it, but I've wanted to watch others to see if that would be appropriate on this forum; before I attempt it.

Oz is what we call Australia,  so I'm in South Australia - right down at the bottom. 

Cheers

 That answers things about others occasions where I've heard that before.

Thanks for the grin 

Hi Max

Thanks for the information on the waterfront; it's a good idea! and it would be a good thread.

And I believed that SouthOz was a place in the USA!!!! I was absolutely wrong! you are farther than I thought!!! you are exactly at the opposite side of my country if you look at a planisphere!

Hi Max,

Sorry to hear about the lost drive. Pat is a great guy and will look after you I'm sure. I have had nothing but great experiences with P&D over 20+ years.

I recently found another upgrade to the drive towers that gets rid of the down-slope of the top shaft and adds double ball-bearings to it. It also provides an adjustable-height tower to achieve perfect chain tension with any sprocket combination.

I don't think it's allowed to post their URL here, so PM me if interested. The parts just arrived so I'll post some pics once I get into the job.

Pete

Thanks, Guys.

I've kept progressive photos as I've gone, so it should be easy enough.  SWMBO is off to the Dragon in Law's this arvo (Sunday), so I'll have a go at it when we get back from taking the dog to the beach.

Thanks, Pete.  Yep.  I think I've bookmarked that product as well.  Pat's been very helpful.  I didn't want to ask him to send another one until we've exhausted all other possibilities; but it's looking like it might have to happen.

The layout will keep me busy in the meantime. 

Cheers

Well, Pat and I have been working at this for a while now without finding the lost parcel.

Pat has sent me another kit FOC, which arrived today.  I've agreed to return the first one if it ever shows up. 

Great service, Pat.     

In the meantime, we're still looking.

I'm away with the band on a road trip until next week, so I won't get a crack at it until then.

I've been plugging away on the layout in the meantime . . .

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...73#44510795592058273

I love playing Bluegrass, but I can't wait to get back to modelling. 

TTFN

OK.  Here we go - after a hiatus.    Pat was very good about the lost kit and sent me another one straight away.  Would you believe it?  A couple of weeks later, the first one turned up.  I've sent the spare one back, before anyone asks. 

Anyway, I've checked the Weaver tower and the sprockets have no cracks.  What happens, is that the chain hangs up on the teeth end then jumps as it releases - in both the Weaver and the P&D!

Here they are, side by side . . .

I had made up a brass idler, which stops the chain wrapping itself around the top sprocket.  That stops the lashing action which was causing jumpy movements in the loco at Notch one.  The P&D one has the wrapping around syndrome as well, so I could change the idler over - or keep the Weaver one.

That's what I've decided to do.  I'll have spare sprockets is I ever need them.  The seller gave me a bunch of spare chain, so I'll be OK with all the spares I've got. 

Pat  sent me an upgraded motor as well.  The motor in the Weaver was struggling with the Loksound decoder (more like the other way around), so I'll see if the new motor improves things.

I've laid 5 metres of track on my new layout, so I'll have somewhere to test it out.

Thanks for your interest.

Wish me luck.

Well, I gotta tell ya.  I'm starting to understand why Weaver went out of business.

I've replaced the bits as above and the loco runs very well at slow speed, but above notches 1 and 2, the drive train rattles very loudly.

The sound of the frequency of the rattle is the same as the tail shaft rotation - but the rattle is coming from the rear drive truck.  I 'end for ended' the square brass shaft, and checked it with a straight edge, but that hasn't helped.

The rattle is coming from the rear truck (the one with the chain).  It's nearly loud enough to drown out the sound decoder.

Experience tells me that I might need to disassemble the gear boxes between the wheels as there is a lot of play there.  Adding shims might help to tighten it all.

A very disappointing product.

P&D replacement to the rescue.  In the box are some spare axle/gearboxes.  Simple process to pop the old one out and pop a new one in.

It's reduced the rattling significantly.  Now if I run the sound decoder, I can't hear it.

The new motor Pat supplied has improved the decoder performance, but I'm going to have to upgrade to the Loksound L version to get rid of the groaning sound completely.

I might set Pat's chain drive up with an idler to replace the old one to see if I can eliminate the rattling completely.

Sheesh!  This O gauge lark is a challenge! 

Cheers

Sadly, in my experience, the rattle is caused by one or both of the following, as alluded to in my earlier post.

One is that the upper sprocket axle is not parallel to the lower axle. This is because the axle boss is cast at a downward angle in the tower moulding. The chain cannot ever run totally smoothly because it's always pulling at a slight angle over the top sprocket. It may climb off the sprocket and is very noisy. It's less of an issue if you switch to more accurately formed machined Delrin sprockets from the chain manufacturers rather than the moulded ones supplied. But it's still too noisy for me. The only fix I know of for this is to get the new adjustable towers we spoke of before which have properly parallel axles.

The other cause of "drive tower rattle" is that the supplied sprocket bosses are too short on one end. This allows the edges of the chain links to overhang it and rub on the supplied spacing washers. This can be fixed by the "Bob Sobol method" of top hat washers that I linked to earlier. Or using a short brass tube spacer as I do, not having a lathe.

I thought the Bob Sobol fixes would do it, but no, the rattle was still there. That's when I noticed the top axle wasn't parallel. A very odd thing. At first I thought maybe I had a warped one, but all mine are like that.

I am hoping to install the new tower upgrades soon and will let you know the results.

I am determined to make this drive quiet!!! 

I guess there's a reason the smart guys use belts not chains these days...  

HTH 

Pete

I noticed during the test runs last night that the front of the loco is rocking side to side, so it looks like I'll have to replace the front axle sets as well. 

I've had that trouble also. Might just be the wheels not pressed on dead square, usually on the insulated side.  Make sure they're in gauge while you're at it...  

Can also be caused by the "slider joint" in the motor-to-tower drive shaft (if present) not sliding freely due to the UJs being pressed onto their shafts crooked. That causes the truck tower to lift a wheelset slightly instead of being able to tilt slightly fore and aft when compensating, and the torque reaction makes the truck wobble. I had a GP38 that would lift the rear truck front axle off the track when pulling away forwards due to this joint sticking. Filed and smoothed the clearances in the slider and problem solved.    

The other cause of wheel lift I've seen is that if the brass tube sleeve between the two axle gearbox housings is a hair long, it presses against both boxes and can transmit torque from one truck to the other causing a wheel to lift. 

As I said before, apart from all this, it's a great drive system.

Pete

Thanks, Pete.

Looks like I'm still a way behind you.

You are welcome! My goal is to save you time and anguish if I can. Probably can't save you money though, sadly.

I never meant to go this deep of course, but I got hung up on the principle - it really ought to be possible to make this design run smoothly and quietly. It's not a bad concept I feel, just some weird/sloppy execution of details. But of course the drive package had to be built to a cost target back in the day, which I quite understand.

Keep going, it will be worth it!  

Pete

You will get it, I went over my GP38-2 while it down right now for conversion to 2 rail and installation of a high short hood. I deburred anything that looked like a burr, check everything for splits.  Mine runs nice and quiet and the chain is nice and tight with very little slop. That will change over time once she is run in, but with 2 hours run time on blocks with the 3 rail wheelsets still in the trucks, she was smooth and quiet.  New P&D wheelsets with gears will go in soon.  I run analog DC, so no decoder worries for me.  Right now my primary engine is a beater Atlas O F9 I saved from a junk pile.  The GP38 is kind of a oddball for my line, I am thinking of returning her to 3 rail and selling to get a couple more F9's   Mike

Thanks, Guys.

Pete, you offered to show me the bloke who makes the replacement drives.  I'm sorry, but I've looked all over the forum and I can't see the PM button.

Can you point it out to me, please?

Cheers

Hi Mike

I don't worry about odd balls.  I just buy what I like the look of.  I've only got 5 metres of layout, so two locos will be enough.  My other one is an Atlas SDP-35 in L&N livery.  Go figure.

All of my rolling stock will be scratch built for my NMRA AP Certificate.

Mine's a waterfront layout with US locos and a Dutch ocean going tug boat.  I wouldn't last five minutes with the P48 mob. 

Rule 1 applies. 

Cheers

Sorry, Pete.  It wasn't you. 

I saw it on the P 48 site.  There's a guy called Kelly skray775@gmail.com who makes adjustable towers for Weavers.

I've emailed him asking if he will ship to Oz.  Having an adjustable upper shaft would be a bonus, but they will also be straight.

I'll post his reply.

Cheers

Max, it was me as well, no worries mate!     But looks like you found him OK.

It seems one has to be a premium subscriber to access PMs. You can also reach him at   info at finescale360 dot com

I just got some of his kits, they seem excellent quality. So he ships to Canada at least... I already have the Delrin larger sprockets so I just got the top shaft and tower version. I have some of his Red Caboose frames as well. Now I just have to fine time to install it all.

I will try to post progress pics/vids when I get to it.

Pete   

Thanks, Pete.

Kelly has just replied and will split the sets for me.

It's all coming along.

BTW, are you able to point me to the PM button?

Cheers

Great news Max!

I think the PM thing would be available from the grey "Dialogs" button at the very top of this page. I tried to use it but a pop-up told me I need to be a premium member to access it.   

Hi guy's,

Here is a picture of the adjustable tower drive kits.  The parts are machined out of fiberglass for the lower section and aluminum for the upper bearing carrier. The lower section was made out of fiberglass for those of you that run electrical pickups mounted on the lower case screws.

The kit was designed for the Red Caboose GP9 and sold in pairs both with and without gears. I can package them in single sets for your application.

More pictures and info on the drives can be seen on my site at:

www.finescale360.com

email: info@finescale360.com

A video of my modified Red Caboose GP9 with the adjustable drive tower. You may notice the wobbly drive shaft at around the 33 second mark. The wobble is from the drive shaft that came with my GP9 NOT the shaft that I include in the drive tower kit.

The loco runs very smooth and the chain noise has been drastically reduced.

A few more pictures.

If you watch the videos om my site the loco is powered by a single A123 2300mAh battery with a voltage booster and motor controller by pololu with and a 2.4 gig spectrum radio receiver.

Thanks, Kelly.

I've received your email reply. 

I'm looking forward to making the changes.

Cheers

Thanks, Kelly.

My payment has been made.

Cheers

Thanks guys,

Just so you all know I have not personally tested this on the locomotive you are working on however I believe it should fit just fine. If for any reason this won't fit I will design a lower bracket to fit this application and make it work!

The kit was designed for the Red Caboose GP9 that uses the upgraded P&D hobbies weaver drive kit.  From what I can tell all the Weaver drives use the same style gear box and as I said above I am confident the lower bracket will fit. 

Please post pictures, I am excited to see some installation pictures once you have the kit in hand.

Thank you all again.

Run to the Post office with my parcel, Kelly. 

Kelly.

It's an Aussie invasion!

I ordered one twin tower drive.

Thanks.

Roo.

West Australia

I've completed building the Profiling track on my layout, complete with a Boulder Creek Engineering HotShot™  Speedometer.

I'm ready for testing once Kelly's bits arrive. 

Cheers

Max.

Thanks for posting about the tower drives I would not have known about them otherwise.

Your Railroad is shaping up to be a winner mate I check it out on the other thread every week.

You take care if your ever in West Australia give us a call.

Every Friday is operation day

My wife and family all came from Adelaide, me, I was originally a Victorian I still follow North Melbourne Football club 'The Mighty Roos"!

Thanks.

Roo.

Thanks, Roo

It's a bit of a drive, but I'll keep it in mind. 

The Roos are knocking on the door for a flag.  Maybe next year.

Cheers

Hey Max!

My drive arrived today has yours.

Well packed, arrived safe in West Australia as always.

I'm using the P&D brass trucks and a Red Caboose diesel.

I might buy the chassis yet.

Oh! And by the way Thanks Kelly. Your the Man!

Roo.

Hi Roo

No sign of it yet.  I've started fitting a Loksound Select L decoder to my SDP-35 while I'm waiting - plus laying track and painting the sea.

Lots to do.

Put up some photos of your build.  Stick them in here if you like.

Cheers

Thanks Roo, I hope it works as planed.

Max, I believe both sets to Australia shipped the same day, should arrive soon, have you checked the tracking number?

Hi Kelly

Shipments to South Oz typically take 10 - 14 days.  Your page shows shipping date as November 19th, so I'm not too worried as yet.  I have the tracking number, so I'll drop in to the post office next week if it hasn't arrived by then.

Pat from P&D sent me a parcel recently which took something like four weeks to come.  To the point that he sent me a replacement, which I had to send back when the first one got here.

I get the feeling that occasionally parcels get diverted to sea transport if they miss the aircraft.

Sometimes we feel like The Early Settlers, waiting for the mail ships to arrive from Olde England. 

Cheers

Max.

It's strange that your parcels are taking so long.

I get parcels or items all the time from the USA and nothing ever takes longer than 21 days in fact I had a MTH Gondola arrive a couple of days ago in 8 days!

I have noticed over the years the international flights with parcels are fast to Australia it takes longer for Australia Post to deliver especially if it comes from the East of Australia to the Wild West.

I ordered a frame from Kelly today thought I might as well go the whole way!

Thanks. Roo.

Hi Roo

Just called at the post office and Kelly's parcel was there, so not too bad; timewise.

My friend Richard, from DCC Concepts is at Naval Base in WA.  If he sends me a parcel it can take up to 10 days to get to South Oz.  If it's something small that will go in a letter, it's virtually over night.  I think parcels have to go via Perth through the mail centre.

Not to worry.  Tomorrow (Saturday), will be a full on rebuild of the GP-38 drive train.  I can't wait to giver her a run, now I've got a section of Profiling track hooked up.

Cheers

Great news Max! I am intrigued to see how this goes as I have not had time to get to my upgrade kits yet.

Please could you do a "before and after" video clip with the noise coming from the top sprocket(s) at speed? I have a P&D F Unit on which I did all the Bob Sobol upgrades, plus a big flywheel. And I spent some time trying to "compromise align" the top and bottom sprockets to accommodate the down-sloping top shaft and angled chain-top sprocket issue. When I first ran it the slow speed was awesome - best ever on that drive. But as soon as I got to about scale 10mph it began to rattle and hum, and by mid throttle it's blotting out the sound decoder. I listened in closely and all the noise seems to be coming off the top sprocket.   

My feeling is that the kit will fix all this and the drive will be as quiet as it ought to be with Delrin-on-Delrin chain and sprockets, and minimized UJ angles.

Fingers crossed...  

Pete    

Hi Pete

Lucky you posted.  I was just about to strip it down.

I'll make a video.

Cheers

Wow Max, that sure is noisy!  But at least it's smooth so as you said the sprockets don't seem to be cracked. Here's my P&D F7 chassis with all the Bob Sobol mods, except P&D top sprocket. It does have a 20-tooth Delrin lower sprocket. It has an NCE D408SR for motor with a TCS KA2 keep alive, and a Soundtraxx DSX for sound (muted here).   

I have to go to Europe tomorrow for a week so won't get to my tower conversion for a bit. Looking forward to how yours turns out!

Pete

Hi Pete

That shaft is well out of alignment!  

So far the things I've found wrong . . .

I had to cut and split the nuts on the P&D tower as they were glued.  Lucky I had some spares from the OE tower.

The P&D gearbox was assembled the wrong way around - and I didn't find it until after I had fitted the lower sprocket.  Lucky I hadn't glued the nuts.

The shaft on the Finescale tower is 3 mm too long to allow the tailshaft to fit between it and the motor.  Lucky I had my handy Dremel to cut the end off. 

The fourth P&D truck has no shaft for the bottom tail shaft, so I couldn't change them over.  Lucky the existing one had a straight axle.

All in all, a lucky day. 

I won't be able to finish it as I have a band gig tonight, so I have to get ready.

Cheers

Well, I don't know what to say about this now.

I've painstakingly converted the tower drive, after cutting 3mm off the end of the splined shaft.  It all fits perfectly.

However . . .  Since the gear reduction, the P&D electric motor has developed a loud whine.  The loco sounds like a tram car.  The noise will overcome the sound of the decoder.

The running gear has intermittent rattling and banging, depending on speed. 

I intend to buy some rollers from Richard Johnson, so I can sit and watch it.  I can't pick up where exactly the rattling is coming from, by following the loco up and down the track.

Making a silk purse from a sow's ear seems to be an appropriate analogy at the minute.

I'm starting to wonder at what point I stop throwing money at this thing, and get off the bus.

Post script:  DCC Concepts "multi gauge" rollers won't fit O scale.  Surprised?

I'll start trawling through the advertisers at the top to see if I can find some there.

Cheers

Not to hijack this thread but was wondering about this....

I'm using a Loksound Select.  A commonly used decoder by members of the Loksound group, for O scale locos.  I've also used V 4's, but not this time.  I record my own sounds and make sound projects, so I'm very experienced with them.

Do you know of a way I can do sound editing on the original LokSound sound files??

Nicholas Smith Trains has them.  The system works. 

I'll be back in 10 - 14 days when they arrive.

Hi Casey

I do it with my Lokprogrammer.

But before that, I do the sound file editing with Goldwave.

Can you be more specific?

Cheers

Hi Max.

I'm not getting involved in your rebuild as I don't use sound or any fancy gimmicks for me it's all DC all the way but that's me and I never knock anyone else for living in the present!

I have been involved in O Scale for many years getting close to 30 years maybe, who's counting, and I am a bumbling modeller who gets by on my average skills.

I have many Weaver and Red caboose diesels some run great some don't for the operation day I don't like hassles so I run a fleet of six Atlas SW diesels and never have a problem.

Anyway enough self praise that's not what I am writing about.

Loco Rollers: This is what I use they are from Mustard Models in England I go every year to England and always go to Telford for the O gauge show which is the biggest same Gauge show in Europe so I'm told not much USA items but plenty of tools and stuff like this.

Maybe you should ask an old O scale bloke sitting down in his workshop at the end of the earth before buying equipment in the future I can give you O SCALE advice but's that's all, I am not an expert and I am not a dealer just an old man playing with his trains.

Nev.

Hi Roo

I'm not fussed about the rollers.  It's good to support our sponsors at the top of the page.

I've got an Atlas SDP-35, which has no running problems.  I fitted a new L Select to it and it seems to have a fault as it's showing a short circuit.

Bryan from SBS4DCC is sending me a replacement which should be here next week.

One step forward and one step back - at least it's not two steps back.  

OK, Max.

You obviously know what your doing, I will let you get on with your work and leave you alone.

Best of luck with your endeavors.

Roo.

know what your doing I leave you to it mate.

good luck.

Roo.

Hi again, Kelly.

To deal first with the motor whine . . . I've been running the loco - first on DC, then on DCC with developing drive trains.  Even with the P&D tower, it wasn't there.  I can't tell for sure; maybe the changed gear ratio has something to do with it.  I really have no idea, but the motor is fine.

Here is a shot of the tower as assembled . . .

As you can see, it's a perfect fit.  There's even a small gap at the left hand end of the slot between the pin and the end.  Couldn't be better.

I could shim the gear a bit to move it more directly above the bottom sprocket.  I could also add a few more links into the chain, which will allow me to raise the tower so that the tail shaft is perfectly level.  Fine tuning really, but it might help to chase down the whine.

Once I've received my rollers, I should be able to home in on the rattle at the bottom.

It's all part of the tapestry.  Who knows - we might even find some pointers for those tackling Weaver GP 38's in the future.

Cheers

I'm finding these posts most interesting, as I too have just purchased a Weaver "38" online.

Have yet to receive it, and hope it will not have any of these issues, but if it does, I'll have some good info with which to address them, thanks to this thread...

Mark in Oregon

Hi Max,

Great work - man that kit is nice! I am now fully motivated togetstuck into mine as soon as I get back. I would say at first glance that the chain does look a little angled coming off the top sprocket so worth a tweak to get them 100% aligned. At least top and bottom tower shafts are parallel now! I doubt if there's enough offset through the UJs to be adding much noise. 

I have been thinking about that "bucket of bolts" rattle that's in your video, and was leaning towards a busted motor as Kelly suggested, but that seems highly unlikely now you have brand new BB Pittman, as you say.

There are only 2 things left I have seen on some of mine that can cause uneven load: The Delrin slider section of the motor drive shaft not being free to slide forwards and backwards from the centred no-load position, and the square-section brass slider driveshaft between the trucks being bent or unable to slide freely. I keep the Delrin dry (file and smooth it if required),  but lube the brass. But tbh I highly doubt either of those would cause a rattle like in the middle of your video.

Anyway, keep up the good work and look forward to seeing what you find. It will be worth it!  

Pete

Thanks, Pete.  Nothing's ever wasted in this hobby. 

I think that I will go back and fine tune the whole thing, just to satisfy myself; while I'm waiting for the rollers.

It all turns very smoothly by hand - both from the top and the bottom shafts, but we all know how things can change once we begin to drive them.

How was Europe?

Thank you for the pictures, I have a few questions and comments.

1) Does the GP38 come with the flywheel show?

2) FYI the small gear is only pushed onto the splines of the shaft about 1/8". It can be pushed onto the splines further if you need to move the chain closer to the tower. This can be done simply by tightening the shaft nut, it won't damage the bearings. Make sure you back the nut off after you do this to prevent binding the tower bearings.

3) My GP9 was a bad runner and I stripped the entire drive train down and found an extra shim inside the lower gear box that was causing binding.

4) Per the instruction in my kit I use locktite and only hand tighten the two lower gear box screws/nuts. Any tighter and the loco started to run bad again.

5) I had flashing inside the brass tube that connected the two lower gear box's. One was also bent a little. I cut new tubes. Make sure the tubes are not to long and pushing against the large lower gear or it will bind.

Hi Kelly

I'm not sure what you mean by a flywheel show.  The motor and flywheel assembly is exactly the same size as the one I removed.

I'm confident that I can line everything up.

I guess it will just be a process of "blueprinting" to use a motor racing term, every component to get them fitting properly.

I can easily turn the drive train with my fingers on both the lower and upper shafts, so I suspect that the spurious whine and rattling is some kind of referred vibration or suchlike.

 I haven't glued any of the screws as yet, until make sure that I haven't over tightened them.

Like I say, I'm going to retrace my steps until I find it.

Cheers

Sorry typo,

Did the GP38 come with the flywheel shown in the picture? Just wondering if the flywheel was available from another source because a few people have asked my to make them but I don't have a CNC lathe.

Ha ha.  Now it makes sense. 

Yes.  I prised the flywheel off and pressed it on to Pat's motor, which had no flywheel.

Flywheel are offered by NWSL.

the just fit perfect to Pittman shaft.

Thank you for the updates this is a great topic, with a lot of great solutions.

I fixed all my weaver using NWSL and P&D products.

Now I have to give a try to finescale tower upgrade.

Andre.

I had a number of flywheel equipped locomotives that had vibration/noise issues at high RPM.  Holding the motors in my hand and revving them up I could feel the vibration - even though I could see that the flywheels were running true.  I discovered that the flywheels were fixed on the motor shaft with steel set screws recessed deep inside the brass flywheel - consequently the flywheels were inherently out of balance.  My fix was to re-bore and tap the flywheels for long brass set screws with heads cut flush with the outer face of the flywheel. This eliminated the out of balance condition - flywheel induced vibration gone!

Ed Rappe

Thanks, Ed.

Fortunately this model has a solid flywheel, so I'm saved from that.  The whine wasn't there before I fitted the tower mod, so that's another bonus.

I goes to show that we need to look properly for these vibration sources.

Flywheels are redundant with DCC, but we need the physical connector to the shaft, so we're stuck with them.

I've done some further work on the tower while I'm waiting for the rollers.

I've trimmed a further 2 mm off the end of the shaft to make sure that Pete's suggestion is covered.  The gap in the shaft slider is now quite large.

I shimmed the sprocket with a brass 3 mm washer, which brought it in line with the bottom sprocket.

I added one link to the chain, which raised the top axle to be perfectly in line with the drive shaft.  I'm not sure what the ideal tension is for the chain, but I guessed that about one chain width deflection midway between the sprockets could be OK.

Anyway, the whine is gone - together with most of the rattle.

What is left of the rattle seems to be coming from the bottom somewhere, but as I say I'll be able to tell more when I use the rollers.

You can also see an ugly burn mark on the chassis, where I made clearance for the chain, as it hits the chassis cross member on full lock.  I used my soldering iron, but I'll clean it up later if I have to take it apart again.

Clearly Weaver made the frames to suit the loco they were modelling, so they are all different.  The mods have turned out to be worth the effort, but they need a bit of tweaking to get them to 100%

Excellent work Max! Looking at this latest picture and from your comments it sounds like you nailed all the "upper drive train" issues. Now that you have the upper drive train running faster than the lower, that should help you isolate the source in the lower on the rollers. 

I was so glad to read "The mods have turned out to be worth the effort, but they need a bit of tweaking to get them to 100%"  

I am still in EU - Madrid this week, a lovely city, and I'll be back next week. I am even more keen to get these tower upgrades kits installed now. Thanks for letting me live vicariously through your emotional roller coaster! 

Looking forward to the next video clip...

Pete

Oops, meant to say that usually the UJ yoke will press fit onto the Pittman shaft the same way it does on the flywheel. So you likely could remove it if you wanted, That big flywheel on my F7 (no idea who made it) is actually hollowed out and the UJ fits onto the end of the motor shaft deep inside. That said, 2 of my original Weaver drives had split yokes. Not that surprising I guess. 

Thanks, Pete.

I might wait until I get it completely done before I make another movie.

The flywheel has the UJ yoke pressed into it on the GP-38, so I didn't bother trying to take the flywheel out of the line.  With hindsight, it could have been a good move - given the problems Ed had with his flywheel being out of balance.

Anyway, enjoy Europe.  Are you on holiday or working?

Cheers

Max, my guess is the solid press-on flywheel is good. I have a couple and they don't vibrate running just the motor on the bench. It's the grub screw ones that can prove troublesome if the grub screws aren't arranged in exactly opposing pairs. Ed Rappe's elegant solution fixes that problem for sure! 

OK on the video - it'll be worth the wait. I'm guessing the difference will be stunning.

My trip is business, sadly.  I'm in the waste-to-energy sector so I tend to travel to interesting cities and then have to go straight to visit the landfill. That "landfill aroma" is surprisingly consistent around the world...       Luckily our Spanish partner knows the value of siesta so its not all bad!

Pete