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Hi all,

I know this announcement is coming VERY late, but it took until today to confirm that we will indeed have a meeting place for the DCS User Group Meeting!  We will be meeting Wednesday, Oct. 20th at Eagle's Nest restaurant.  All LOT has changed since our last meeting in October, 2019.  We'll have plenty of information for you about the future of DCS, where to buy new hardware, where to get repair parts, etc.

If you have any DCS hardware that needs a firmware upgrade (TIU, Remote, WIU, DCS Commander), free upgrades will be available before dinner.

As before, you do NOT have to buy dinner to attend, but I need to give the restaurant a rough headcount of how many will be dining.

WHAT YOU NEED TO DO TO ATTEND

Reply to this thread with your name and anyone else who will be attending with you.

Indicate in your reply if you will be dining at Eagle's Nest.

OR

Send the same info to me at hikelogauge@gmail.com



WHERE?

Eagle's Nest Restaurant (banquet room upstairs)

2519 Mt Rose Ave

York, PA 17402



WHEN?

5 to 6 PM - Free firmware upgrades for Remotes, TIU's and WIU's

6 PM - Dinner.  You can check out the Eagle's Nest menu HERE

7 to 7:45 PM - Presentation on DCS by Dave Hikel and other guest speakers.

7:45 to ??? - Q and A



Hope to see you Wednesday!






Last edited by Dave Hikel
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

Bob - The current firmware revisions are...

TIU - v6.10

Remote - v6.10

WIU - v1.1

Bob, Steve, Chuck, Dave, Malcolm, and Marc, welcome aboard!

Mich, I don't plan to video record the meeting, but if someone who attends wants to record the event I have no objections.  I will post meeting notes afterwards, but not video.

@CurtisH posted:

I guess the DCS Users meeting must not have yielded anything. I was hoping to attend but could not. I was really hoping it would be summarized here. That was one thing Barry always did.

Barely knew him and I really miss him.  His feedback here and service to the hobby at large was tremendous.  And yes, I was really hoping someone here would have taken notes and shared them.

I thought the meeting yielded a lot and was VERY worthwhile. I did not take notes. Some of the tidbits which became apparent to me from the meeting is that MTH has changed form and business model. The electronics business has been split off and is in Michigan. Dave Krebl (name right?) heads this up and may own it. The parts for MTH trains, Midge being the previous contact for most of us, is going to online and will be headed up by Mike Reagan. My understanding is that Mike Reagan and Mike Wolf are the owners of this business. About 28,000 parts have been cataloged and put in the database and there are about 28,000 parts to go. MTH trains as we have known it will no longer exist. However, MTH will be doing "special runs" and this will be their way of selling. Mike Wolf owns this and Rich Foster and Mike's brother-in-law will be running it. I have no idea how this will evolve, and there were a lot of questions particularly about steam engines.

MTH sold a lot of their dies to Atlas and Lionel The dies sold to Atlas are listed somewhere. The ones that Lionel purchased are subject to a nondisclosure agreement, so don't expect to find out what they are. It was not clear to me who will be making the product for Atlas. It could be Atlas or it could be whatever the new MTH is called, simply using Atlas boxes.

The reason for all this is that the reworking of the business substantially lowers MTH's costs, and is much more profitable for Mike with a lot less work. Or at least that's what was said/implied. IMO, he deserves it. No large warehouse, no shows, no catalogs, no Andy Edelman salary. Sorry, Andy, but you'll find your niche.

Since there will be special runs for dealers, I expect less competition. Hence, higher prices. Time will tell. This also means you won't be able to go to a train show and find 5 dealers selling the same F3 all at somewhat different prices.

Some of the older electronics are no longer available and therefore some items can no longer be produced. The electronics in the Z4K are one example. But expect a Z4K with new electronics in the future. I believe it has been MTHs biggest seller (and for good reason). Do not expect a new handheld.

I'm sure there are many items I've forgotten. But as I said, I thought the dinner was great and I really thank Dave for arranging it.

Gerry

Thank you Gerry for sharing this.  This is similar and adds to the Trainworld online rundown early last week.  Do you recall if there was anything said about DCS other than the corporate structure?  Questions I have include wondering if they are planning anything new with DCS?  Would they be opening it any outside app developers or anything to add features?  

Thanks again!

Bob

@gmorlitz posted:

I thought the meeting yielded a lot and was VERY worthwhile. I did not take notes. Some of the tidbits which became apparent to me from the meeting is that MTH has changed form and business model. The electronics business has been split off and is in Michigan. Dave Krebl (name right?) heads this up and may own it. The parts for MTH trains, Midge being the previous contact for most of us, is going to online and will be headed up by Mike Reagan. My understanding is that Mike Reagan and Mike Wolf are the owners of this business. About 28,000 parts have been cataloged and put in the database and there are about 28,000 parts to go. MTH trains as we have known it will no longer exist. However, MTH will be doing "special runs" and this will be their way of selling. Mike Wolf owns this and Rich Foster and Mike's brother-in-law will be running it. I have no idea how this will evolve, and there were a lot of questions particularly about steam engines.

MTH sold a lot of their dies to Atlas and Lionel The dies sold to Atlas are listed somewhere. The ones that Lionel purchased are subject to a nondisclosure agreement, so don't expect to find out what they are. It was not clear to me who will be making the product for Atlas. It could be Atlas or it could be whatever the new MTH is called, simply using Atlas boxes.

The reason for all this is that the reworking of the business substantially lowers MTH's costs, and is much more profitable for Mike with a lot less work. Or at least that's what was said/implied. IMO, he deserves it. No large warehouse, no shows, no catalogs, no Andy Edelman salary. Sorry, Andy, but you'll find your niche.

Since there will be special runs for dealers, I expect less competition. Hence, higher prices. Time will tell. This also means you won't be able to go to a train show and find 5 dealers selling the same F3 all at somewhat different prices.

Some of the older electronics are no longer available and therefore some items can no longer be produced. The electronics in the Z4K are one example. But expect a Z4K with new electronics in the future. I believe it has been MTHs biggest seller (and for good reason). Do not expect a new handheld.

I'm sure there are many items I've forgotten. But as I said, I thought the dinner was great and I really thank Dave for arranging it.

Gerry

I do not think the NDA will be a problem any MTH train buyer has already seen some of the buildings that use to belong to MTH. The mth buyers will pick this stuff out quickly.

I don't recall Bob. I was having a good time talking to the guys next to me and having a drink. Dave will have to answer this. But I'm a big fan of the DCS system and I hope it continues to be developed. I doubt that it would have been split off if the plans were just to keep it stagnant. If that was the plan, then why involve Dave? Just milk it for whatever $$$ you can get out of it.

Gerry

Interesting comments. Let me add to them. I went right to Rich Foster, Andy Elderman and Steve Nelson was there also. My questions were direct. Andy Elderman is a Sub Contractor (his own words) working for  MTH. Rich Foster is in charge of the New MTH. There will be no catalog CURRENTLY, as everything is currently being BTO or special runs. ONLY 20% of the molds were sold between Atlas and Lionel. ALL S Gauge and HO Gauge has been sold.

So My question to DCS User Group attendees and people running it is "Where did this ALL molds have been sold come from?". There is a lot of talk that is going around that was neither said by the interview with Train World or MTH. Yes it is three companies. Yes Mike Reagan is heading up Parts and Sales. I ask Mike at York specifically about parts that are out of stock and whether he thought they may still be in the crated pallets. His answer was if they are not we WILL be making them again. Now that to me seemed crazy and I said so, but he repeated it to me again to make sure I understood.

I am not trying to upset anyone but I do want facts not what we or someone else thinks. That is why at York when I saw Rich and Andy I went to them and ask. From the horses lips to my ears. The horse should know. One other note. Rich Foster did tell me that they are just beginning and ask If I could give them time. YES NOT PROBLEM was my reply. After all Joshua Lionel and Mike Wolf did not start with catalogs in full color and thousands of items. They started Small. MTH IS NOT THE OLD MTH WITH LOTS OF MONEY. New Company and New management.

Thanks Curtis. It will be interesting to see how the new MTH fleshes out. I'm sure that will have a lot to do with sales and profitability over the years. IMO, Rich is a great guy to be heading it. Ditto with big Mike at parts. He really got Lionel's under control and I would expect no less when he has a stake in the project. Right guy, right place. Not a surprise to me. And I already posted my thoughts about the electronics end above.

I think we have a lot of reasons to be optimistic about what's happening with MTH. Time will tell how it all works out, but right now it looks pretty smart to me. And I am nowhere near as unhappy with my investment in MTH engines and the DCS system as I was a couple of years ago. It is still my preferred control system.

Gerry

Hi all,

Sorry for taking a little time getting this posted.  I spent some time working on client layouts after York.

I'm happy to report we had more than 30 people who were able to attend.  It was a real joy to get together again after a two year hiatus and it was great to see so many familiar faces.

Pat Marinari upgraded the firmware on more than a dozen TIU's and DCS remotes.  Thanks Pat!

At the last meeting in Oct., 2019, we had settled on doing the user group meet once a year, and we may return to that schedule in the future.  However, April, 2022, will be a special occasion, the 20th Anniversary of the release of DCS.  There will be our usual announcement for the meet when we get to next March.  For now, please mark your calendars for Wednesday, April 27th, 2022!

I gave a PowerPoint presentation on the current status of MTH and DCS.  Here are the slides with a little captioning for added context...

No!  MTH did not go out of business.  The new MTH headquarters hasn't even moved very far.  The new HQ is one exit farther north and on the opposite side of I-95.  The new location handles shipping and receiving for new MTH products and is home to MTH Parts.

As others have noted, MTH has now been re-structured into three separate businesses.  We talked a little about each business.

Slide7

Mike Wolf still has an ownership interest in each of the three companies.  Rich Foster is now a partner in the new MTH Trains and Andy Edleman is continuing to work as a consultant.  The MTH Parts business is now a partnership of Mike Wolf, Mike Reagan, and Mark Hipp.  The MTH DCS business is solely owned by Mike Wolf, but is still being directed by Dave Krebiehl.

First, we talked about MTH Trains.

Slide8

About 20% of the O Gauge tooling has been sold, but about 80% remains available for use by MTH Trains.  Many new items have already been announced throughout 2021.  Most are special runs for clubs and dealers.  All new product announcements are being made on-line.  The best way to learn about new releases is to sign up for the MTH e-mail newsletter HERE.

All of the new product announcements to date have come from the Railking and Premier O gauge product lines.

Slide9

MTH Trains still owns the tooling for Standard gauge and O gauge Tinplate Traditions products, Railking 1-Gauge products, and RealTrax and ScaleTrax track products.  Dealers and layout builders (me ) who have carried ScaleTrax have already had additional ScaleTrax produced.  Similar opportunities are available to dealers in the future who want to bring in product from other MTH product lines.  The main difference is that the new MTH HQ does not have enough space to warehouse large volumes of product, so new production runs will be limited to what dealers order.

Slide10

MTH Parts has a new website up and running at www.mthpartsandsales.com.  Mike Reagan has taken on the monumental task of sorting through more than 50 pallets of parts that were moved from the old MTH HQ.  He has already cataloged, photographed, and posted more than 28,000 parts, many of which "found" parts that had been listed as "out of stock."

To demonstrate the new parts website, I showed a sample search I recently made for a replacement drawbar for a client's Z-6 Challenger.  When looking for a part, click on the "Exploded View / Part Lists" section.  As advised by Mike Reagan, it's best to start with a VERY broad search.

Slide15

I started by entering the wheel arrangement for a challenger, 4-6-6-4.

Slide16

That results in a list of every challenger MTH has ever made in every scale.  The most powerful tool of the new website is the ability to filter search results.  I know I was looking for a drawbar for a Z-6 challenger, so I typed in "Z" in the filter field.

Slide17

That instantly cut down the options to four listings.  In this case, the Z-6 challengers were produced once with PS2 and later with PS3.  Each run offered both 2-rail and 3-rail versions.  I was looking for a drawbar for a 3-rail PS2, so I clicked on the "Electronics Parts" for that engine.

Slide18

That brought up one of the many new parts breakouts that Mike Reagan has been creating.  The drawbar is labeled as part #52 on the diagram.  Scrolling down the page we find the listing for part #52.

Slide19

There are several listings for the different length drawbars that will work with the engine in question.

Slide20

Clicking on the photo symbol for the 35mm drawbar brings up a picture of the part.  Sure enough, it's the 10-pin version with the plugs 90˚ to the bar.  It's in-stock for $12.  There is also an exploded view for mechanical and detail parts that has never before been available for this engine.

Mike Reagan has a long way to go sorting through parts, but he's making excellent progress.  As time goes on we will have a MUCH easier time finding, ordering, and receiving the parts we need for our trains.

Next, we talked about the MTH DCS business.

Slide24

MTH DCS is responsible for development and maintenance of DCS hardware and software, including the DCS App.  They are also responsible for overseeing the production of new DCS hadware that will be sold through Atlas.

The main project right now for Dave Krebiehl and MTH DCS is the new WTIU (#50-1039).  This next generation Track Interface Unit was announced in early 2020.  It integrates the functions of the existing TIU and WIU.  We then compared the catalog image and feature description of the WTIU with the existing TIU.

Slide27

The USB port has been relocated to the same position as the current RS-232 serial port.  This implies that the WTIU will eliminate the RS-232 serial port.

Slide28

The TIU's "remote input" has been replaced by an "ENET INPUT," or ethernet jack.  The inclusion of the ethernet port is critically important for large layouts with multiple TIU's.  As I covered in an earlier presentation to the DCS User Group on DCS Networking, when you have more than one TIU/WIU on a layout you will have MUCH more reliable operation by hard wiring the WIU's to a router with ethernet cables.  When properly configured, this almost entirely eliminates the issue of TIU/WIU's disappearing from the App.

Slide29

An important thing to be aware of is the new WTIU will NOT include a 900MHz radio.  Therefore, it will not communicate via radio with existing DCS remotes.  The product description for the WTIU notes that the DCS remote will work with the WTIU, but only when tethered.  That implies that the "REMOTE INPUT" jack will be relocated to the opposite end of the WTIU.

Slide30

The WTIU will have a standard RP-SMA antenna.  This is a nice improvement over the TIU.  RP-SMA cables are readily available on the aftermarket.  If you use the WTIU as a standalone network, or use WiFi to connect the WTIU to a router, you will be able locate the antenna for optimal radio reception while keeping the WTIU under the layout for short wire runs to the track.

Slide31

Each channel of the WTIU will have a purple indicator light.  On the WIU, the purple indicator light indicates that the WIU has negotiated a connection with the TIU.  On the WIU, these lights may indicate when the DCS signal is turned on or off on each channel.  This would be a nice improvement over the TIU for those who like to turn off the DCS signal to run conventional on the variable channels.  This isn't common, but it can cause real angst when one forgets to turn the DCS signal back on.

Another change is the ability to control either AC or DC track voltage on the variable channels.  The TIU can only handle AC current on the variable channels.

Slide32

Going into the future, the WTIU, AIU, and DCS App are the only products that will definitely be produced and maintained.

Slide33

Other DCS products have a less certain future.  MTH announced the discontinuation of the WIU last year, but that decision may be reversed.  The DCS Explorer was designed for start sets, which MTH Trains will no longer be producing.  The DCS Explorer was available for separate sale, but it's uncertain if there will be enough demand for separate sale versions to justify another production run.  The DCS Remote Commander was replaced by the DCS Explorer in starter sets, but there was already enough demand for the separate sale version that more DCS Remote Commanders were produced.  If that demand persists we may see another batch.  The DCS Commander is probably the least likely product to get another production run.  The DCS Commander is a DC only product aimed at the HO market.  Since MTH has sold all of it's HO and S scale tooling to Scale Trains, it is unlikely there will be demand for the Commader.

Slide34

The Rev. L TIU and DCS remote will not be made again.

Next we covered the diaspora of MTH tooling.

Slide35

Slide37

The fact that Scale Trains will not be using PS3 in their locomotives is a real hit for DCS users in HO.  Without new production locomotives, it is unlikely that replacement HO PS3 boards will be produced in the future.

Slide39

It was announced that Lionel has purchased some MTH tools, but Lionel has chosen not to reveal which tools.  Some items did appear in the new Lionel catalog, including the Railking barn, 3-story building, Premier 19th Century passenger cars, and the UP CA-1 caboose.

Slide41

Atlas acquired numerous tools from the MTH Premier line (listed above).  Most important for DCS users, the locomotives produced by Atlas will include PS3 electronics.

Slide42

Atlas has licensed DCS from MTH and will be marketing DCS hardware, including the WTIU and AIU.  Atlas will also be handling warranty repairs and service parts for all items they sell.  They will maintain their own supply of parts separate from MTH Parts.

Slide43

I have also been making a few DCS related products, including DCS signal filters, a battery compartment insert for the DCS remote, thumbwheel assemblies for the DCS remote, and repair posts to replace cracked posts on the TIU case.

After the PowerPoint presentation, Andy Edleman addressed the meeting on behalf of MTH Trains and Atlas.  Andy explained that he is working as a consultant for both companies.  He is making the marketing materials (product images, descriptions, etc.) and handling ordering with the factories overseas.

He explained that the new MTH Trains will be producing about half the number of new items each year as the old MTH, but without a printed catalog.  Atlas will be marketing many new products as "Atlas O Premier" and will be releasing a new printed catalog by early December.  Atlas is excited to be working with MTH's factories, which will allow Atlas to bring products from catalog to dealers in a much shorter time frame than earlier Atlas products.

Among the new Atlas O Premier items announced in July, 2021, were several sets of 70ft. heavyweight passenger cars.  Atlas coordinated with MTH Trains on these announcements to produce matching steam locomotives.  Andy confirmed that this arrangement will continue in the future.

Again, thanks to everyone who attended.  Hopefully more of you will be able to make it in April.

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Last edited by Dave Hikel

Dave,  thank you for this very complete meeting rundown!  Clearly MTH has moved on from its past but this presents a positive picture for the new MTH companies, even if they are scaled down versions.  

I see you list a DCS filter as one of your products.  I was not aware of this.  What is the purpose of this filter - in other words, why would it be needed?  

Thanks,

Bob

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