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The bigger question is..... when will Lionel finally use the far superior K-line J1e tooling? No other o-scale J1e is as fine looking.
I will still take any of Lionel's USA produced J1e Hudsons over anything from the far east from either company. But thats just me. AD
@Brian DeFazio posted:The bigger question is..... when will Lionel finally use the far superior K-line J1e tooling? No other o-scale J1e is as fine looking.
Did Lionel even acquire that tooling from Sanda Kan? Lionel bought some of the former K-Line tooling from them, but does anyone know if they got the J1e tooling?
Andy
@artfull dodger posted:I will still take any of Lionel's USA produced J1e Hudsons over anything from the far east from either company. But thats just me. AD
When was the last time Lionel produced a steam locomotive in the USA?
@Andy Hummell posted:Did Lionel even acquire that tooling from Sanda Kan? Lionel bought some of the former K-Line tooling from them, but does anyone know if they got the J1e tooling?
Andy
Well I believe, Lionel has "acquired" ,and remade every other scale K Line steamer. I.e., light Mike, A1 berkshire, 0-4-0. B6 0-6-0, K4 , Shays etc (I might be missing something.
I still say. If you look closely at the crescent shaped counterweights on the VL Hudson. They are suspiciously identical to those on the k line j1e.
I don't think Lionel or Mth have ever done those crescent shaped counterweight.
I'd certainly be in for a vision line k line j1e.
@RickO posted:Well I believe, Lionel has "acquired" ,and remade every other scale K Line steamer. I.e., light Mike, A1 berkshire, 0-4-0. B6 0-6-0, K4 , Shays etc (I might be missing something.
I still say. If you look closely at the crescent shaped counterweights on the VL Hudson. They are suspiciously identical to those on the k line j1e.
I don't think Lionel or Mth have ever done those crescent shaped counterweight.
I'd certainly be in for a vision line k line j1e.
Rick, I’ve proved that every recent Hudson the big L produced after 28072, 38041, & 28084 are direct descendants of the Kline Hudson. I’ve taken my Legacy J3a shell off and it’s darn near a bolt on swap for the Kline shell. If it weren’t for the bigger rearward facing motor, it would bolt right up,…..clearly Lionel modified the Kline tooling to get a better motor on the Kline chassis,……we’ve already proven this on a bunch of Kline Berkshires by directly bolting legacy chassis right to an older Kline shell,….obviously those earlier legacy Berk chassis have the larger rearward facing motor,…….so you don’t have to believe, ……it’s true,….😉
Pat
@artfull dodger posted:I will still take any of Lionel's USA produced J1e Hudsons over anything from the far east from either company. But thats just me. AD
The Hudsons produced in Korea during TMCC are 10x smoother, look better, and are built like battle tanks compared to any state side production. ….I’m all for USA production too, …but the Korean artisans that built those bulletproof steam locomotives at the turn of the century get my vote too,…
Pat
Last USA made steam engine from Lionel was a 736 style NKP Berkshire in 2000. I still think the linkages and such on the reissue 700e from 1990 look better than the far east produced stuff. I prefer my engines to be serviceable, cant really do much but replace circuit boards and can motors if they fail. I know the older USA build one will be running long after I am gone. But many like the newer sounds and features that come with the current crop of engines. To each his own, as long as we are all having fun. AD
@Brian DeFazio posted:The bigger question is..... when will Lionel finally use the far superior K-line J1e tooling? No other o-scale J1e is as fine looking.
I think they already have, and we’ve been bamboozled, …..I believe the VL Hudson is the first offspring of the Kline/Lionel marriage,…..if you flip a VL on her back, and do the same with the Kline, there’s just too many eerie similarities,……and the Hudson is just the tip of the iceberg, …we all know the late Kline scale steamers were ( and still are ) some of the finest on the market …..to this day,…
Pat
@harmonyards posted:Rick, I’ve proved that every recent Hudson the big L produced after 28072, 38041, & 28084 are direct descendants of the Kline Hudson. …….so you don’t have to believe, ……it’s true,….😉
Pat
Yes, Now I remember we had this discussion Pat.
Thanks for chiming with the details...again.
So, now we wait and see if they ever use the rest...but, since the Hudson won't bring in a 3k price tag....maybe never.
Back to the topic at hand however. 6 different variations offered by MTH. Not too shabby for a company that's supposedly out of business 😉
So, Lionel didn't buy the Hudson tooling from MTH because they already have the K-Line tooling.
@Frank Mulligan posted:So, Lionel didn't buy the Hudson tooling from MTH because they already have the K-Line tooling.
Given Lionel has a herd of Hudsons, I doubt you’ll see them go after MTH’s ……now, if Lionel abandoned the old TMCC tooling especially the Dreyfus, then you might see them try to acquire that tooling at least, …..then you guys can get that legacy Dreyfus y’all been dreaming of,…….one can hope, …..
Pat
How many Hudsons is enough? I now have 10, and that's ridiculous. Four from 3rd Rail, four from Lionel, one Weaver/Samhongsa, and one K-Line. Once I get my under-construction layout functional, I'll figure out which are the "weak sisters" and cull the herd. Are the prospective enhancements with Vision / PS3 really worth the investment in a new Hudson? Especially if one is retired and has a limited number of years left in the hobby?
Hudson are pretty common, I am more interested in who has the tooling for the Triplex and the Turbines like the Jawn Henry and the other UP turbines
@KarlDL posted:How many Hudsons is enough? I now have 10, and that's ridiculous. Four from 3rd Rail, four from Lionel, one Weaver/Samhongsa, and one K-Line. Once I get my under-construction layout functional, I'll figure out which are the "weak sisters" and cull the herd. Are the prospective enhancements with Vision / PS3 really worth the investment in a new Hudson? Especially if one is retired and has a limited number of years left in the hobby?
How many Hudsons is enough?
the Central proper fielded 275 Hudsons. For some of us, the quest is on. Feel free to contact me with any of your “weak sisters” …..I still have some cab numbers left in the que, ….not many though,…..😜
Pat
@KarlDL posted:How many Hudsons is enough? I now have 10, and that's ridiculous. Are the prospective enhancements with Vision / PS3 really worth the investment in a new Hudson? Especially if one is retired and has a limited number of years left in the hobby?
There are newcomers ,as well as relative newcomers to the hobby that may only have one or two such as myself or none at all.
Maybe folks didn't have the funds at the time or missed out for whatever reason.
In case of the VL. They get as much or more now on the secondary market than they did when they were new.
In the case of MTH. I see few if any on the secondary market outside of the old ps1 model.
There seems to be a broad assumption on this forum. That just because some folks have walls full of every locomotive, that everyone does.
I could very well be wrong. In which case. If MTH doesn't get enough orders they might just get cancelled anyway.
@RickO posted:There are newcomers ,as well as relative newcomers to the hobby that may only have one or two such as myself or none at all.
Maybe folks didn't have the funds at the time or missed out for whatever reason.
In case of the VL. They get as much or more now on the secondary market than they did when they were new.
In the case of MTH. I see few if any on the secondary market outside of the old ps1 model.
There seems to be a broad assumption on this forum. That just because some folks have walls full of every locomotive, that everyone does.
I could very well be wrong. In which case. If MTH doesn't get enough orders they might just get cancelled anyway.
You are spot on. Every time anything is reissued, I'm excited at the chance to maybe get something I never had a chance at before. I've only been in O-scale since 2017. Having a young family, funds are tight.... and more future reissues will be needed to fullfill my locomotive roster wishes lol. So yes, we need several more reissues of everything lmao.
On a different note, I love my K-line hudson....but that loco with legacy would be incredible.
I have 2 Boston & Albany Hudson’s. I was going to pass on the first one. Just a NYC Hudson with different lettering. Looking at one up close I noticed the Lima Builder plates. That sealed the deal. The last ones were built by Lima not Alco. Someone at MTH did their homework. I know nothing about building diecast but if you can change out for the different builder plate where the indent is more diamond shaped than a rectangle cast into the boiler. Why can’t you do the ugly added on square Sand dome. A B&A trademark. Then you would have my interest.
@Dave_C posted:I have 2 Boston & Albany Hudson’s. I was going to pass on the first one. Just a NYC Hudson with different lettering. Looking at one up close I noticed the Lima Builder plates. That sealed the deal. The last ones were built by Lima not Alco. Someone at MTH did their homework. I know nothing about building diecast but if you can change out for the different builder plate where the indent is more diamond shaped than a rectangle cast into the boiler. Why can’t you do the ugly added on square Sand dome. A B&A trademark. Then you would have my interest.
I’ve been studying the ugly sand box Dave, doesn’t look that bad to mod one on an existing Hudson shell,…..now, the icing on the cake would be to grab a MTH Blue Comet tender shell, put some commonwealths on it, and voila!…the short tender is born….then y’all B&A guys would get weak in the knees,….😉
Pat
Here’s a shot of the short tender I built for a K6 class Pacific……Mario made me build it,…..so I had to,….😄
Pat 
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Pat, beyond my expertise. If you could mill off the existing sand dome. With the work your seeing with todays 3D printers I’m sure you could get the correct contour to match the boiler along with the 4 hatches on top. . A built in stud and a piece of brass bar you could sock it down in place. You could probably copy right off a Lionel Berkshire.
I noticed that tender years ago. Has the right contours. You would have to lop off whatever that is sticking up on the tenders deck.
@Dave_C posted:Pat, beyond my expertise. If you could mill off the existing sand dome. With the work your seeing with todays 3D printers I’m sure you could get the correct contour to match the boiler along with the 4 hatches on top. . A built in stud and a piece of brass bar you could sock it down in place. You could probably copy right off a Lionel Berkshire.
I noticed that tender years ago. Has the right contours. You would have to lop off whatever that is sticking up on the tenders deck.
I was gonna lop it off, and got lazy …..actually I forgot about it, and then started spraying it and since I had already catalyzed the paint, I wasn’t looking back,….
I’d make that sand box out of brass sheet broke, formed and soldered, …..like you said though, it’d have a tug beam on the inside to suck it down to the shell,…..graft it in, and respray ……and what in the world do you mean beyond your expertise??…..my jaw gets full of dirt every time you post a caboose,….level achieved buddy,……to be sure you can make a box …..😉
Pat
@harmonyards posted:Given Lionel has a herd of Hudsons, I doubt you’ll see them go after MTH’s ……now, if Lionel abandoned the old TMCC tooling especially the Dreyfus, then you might see them try to acquire that tooling at least, …..then you guys can get that legacy Dreyfus y’all been dreaming of,…….one can hope, …..
Pat
"These aren't the Hudson's your looking for....move along...move along."
I doubt we will see the MTH Dreyfuss out of MTH's hands. That had already happened once, but we all know about that. We can only wait it seems.
As far as Hudson, the other variety. Well, now we're talking. I have a bunch I have to send to someone when I get some time, but I don't have any MTH Hudson's to convert(yet). We'll see I guess.
It is interesting MTH has done these new sets of J1, I don't think Big L will be doing these just yet. I wager that it will at least be two to three more years before they hit us with J1's.
It would be nice ( I don’t know how necessary) to see Lionel do an exact copy of the Kline J1e and just make it basic Legacy, …..I mean the old Kline Hudson as mentioned above by Brian above is the high water mark in die cast Hudsons, …..instead of stratosphere pricing such as the VL’s are, just keep it at a dull roar,…like the VL, you’ll get a rearward facing larger motor, whistle steam, etc,…..
Pat
@harmonyards posted:I’ve been studying the ugly sand box Dave, doesn’t look that bad to mod one on an existing Hudson shell,…..now, the icing on the cake would be to grab a MTH Blue Comet tender shell, put some commonwealths on it, and voila!…the short tender is born….then y’all B&A guys would get weak in the knees,….😉
Pat
Yes we would get weak in the knees. I long for early tenders for my B&A stuff, that's what makes the 3rdrail B&A Mike so appealing.
@harmonyards posted:It would be nice ( I don’t know how necessary) to see Lionel do an exact copy of the Kline J1e and just make it basic Legacy, …..I mean the old Kline Hudson as mentioned above by Brian above is the high water mark in die cast Hudsons,
What makes the original K-Line tooling better than the K-Line inspired Legacy Hudsons?
@rplst8 posted:What makes the original K-Line tooling better than the K-Line inspired Legacy Hudsons?
They haven’t done a Legacy J1e, ….only the ultra high priced VL Hudson,……which remains in the stratosphere for pricing, …….as far as “standard Legacy” they haven’t done a J1e, only a J3a and the ESE’s …..don’t get me wrong, anything the big L makes is way overpriced IMO, but maybe a Legacy J1e won’t go to the moon pricing like the VL did and remains,…….
Pat
@superwarp1 posted:Yes we would get weak in the knees. I long for early tenders for my B&A stuff, that's what makes the 3rdrail B&A Mike so appealing.
I could certainly make a batch if I can get my hands on some MTH Blue Vomit tender shells, …..not out of the realm of possibilities, …..it’s not a dead nuts clone, but it’s mighty close, and with commonwealths, it certainly looks the part,….and as Dave pointed out, lop off that air dam looking thing on the tender tank …….Dave caught me red handed, …I simply forgot to chop that guy off, and with gun in hand, it was too late …..😉
Pat
@rplst8 posted:What makes the original K-Line tooling better than the K-Line inspired Legacy Hudsons?
Another point is, if you don’t own one of the Kline Hudsons ( the originals ) then take a closer look when you see one, ….among die cast scale Hudsons, the Kline is arguably the finest of them all,….that’s why so many opt to repower them and dump a chunk of change into them…..even MTH’s J1e ( as far as the shell is concerned ) still remains second fiddle to the detail of the Kline …….the next evolution surpassing the Kline, would only be brass,….
Pat
@harmonyards posted:I could certainly make a batch if I can get my hands on some MTH Blue Vomit tender shells, …..not out of the realm of possibilities, …..it’s not a dead nuts clone, but it’s mighty close, and with commonwealths, it certainly looks the part,….and as Dave pointed out, lop off that air dam looking thing on the tender tank …….Dave caught me red handed, …I simply forgot to chop that guy off, and with gun in hand, it was too late …..😉
Pat
In three rail diecast world, close is good enough. The issue would be modify to mate with what ever engine you put it behind. Kline, Lionel, MTH. I have all of them in B&A Drawbar, wireless tether, Lionel's wireless drawbar. Where would you get those tenders, lots or engines going around without a tender? Dave and I even considered asking Scott Mann to make extra tenders (minus electronics and paint) for separate sale in the up coming H10 mike run.
@superwarp1 posted:In three rail diecast world, close is good enough. The issue would be modify to mate with what ever engine you put it behind. Kline, Lionel, MTH. I have all of them in B&A Drawbar, wireless tether, Lionel's wireless drawbar. Where would you get those tenders, lots or engines going around without a tender? Dave and I even considered asking Scott Mann to make extra tenders (minus electronics and paint) for separate sale in the up coming H10 mike run.
We haven’t run across the batch of Premier Blue Vomit parts at MTH parts and sales, ….hopefully there’s a box of tender shells, …If there is, I’m going to buy a bunch to make these, …..not only for you B&A guys, some Central proper locomotives ran these too,…..correct me if I’m wrong, but some Big Four territory engines had to keep short tenders to fit on certain turntables,……but certainly these could be adapted case by case study, be it a Lionel or MTH engine…..Lionel has commonwealths with roller pickups for IR engines. The K6 I made uses MTH trucks, without IR, so I just carried the hot & not through a wired tether,….
Pat
In addition, the Premier Blue Vomit went through every design phase MTH could dish out, ….PS1, & PS2 tethered, and late PS2 wireless drawbar, ….so tender frame possibilities are pretty much limitless…..besides, where there’s a will, there’s a way,….☺️
Pat
I'll take a CNJ Blue Vomit over a NYC Dudson any day of the week. 
However, that doesn't totally explain how I have two Dudsons and only one and a half Blue Vomits. 
@rplst8 posted:Hudsons drool, Pacifics rule (especially the K4s).
Oh god, not that again please,…..if you look up what a Hudson was built for, and what a K4 was built for, you’ll find they each had their own purpose they were specifically designed for ,……..comparing the two is apples & oranges……the old which is better the Hudson or the K4 debate never gets off the ground ……and it gets old quick…
Pat
I own 10 Hudsons as well, so while these new releases from MTH look great, I'll most likely pass. A few years ago, I bought a K Line J1e and like it very much. I'd like it more if it had some of Harmonyards Pat's modifications, like he did for Leapin' Larry.
I have an MTH Premier J1e, which is nice, but there's something about it that's just a bit "off" compared to the same models made by K Line and Lionel.
@harmonyards posted:Oh god, not that again please,…..if you look up what a Hudson was built for, and what a K4 was built for, you’ll find they each had their own purpose they were specifically designed for ,……..comparing the two is apples & oranges……the old which is better the Hudson or the K4 debate never gets off the ground ……and it gets old quick…
Pat
I think this was more of school yard tit for tat sarcasm remark than a serious argument...
@H1000 posted:I think this was more of school yard tit for tat sarcasm remark than a serious argument...
Let’s hope so…..😉
Pat
@harmonyards posted:……the old which is better the Hudson or the K4 debate never gets off the ground ……and it gets old quick…
Pat
Not as quick as it got old hand firing those k4's until the stokers were added in the 40's😉😉
