Western Maryland Scenic in big trouble

@superwarp1 posted:

Just read this on Trains news wire. The FRA has told the railroad no running until 50,000 ties are replaced at an estimated cost of just over 2 million.   Question is where that money is going to come from.

That and, who will they contract to do the work, since they haven't had a "track department" for quite some years.

Maybe a blessing.  Get the track fixed before 1309 runs on it with passengers.  And see and fix, if needed the turntable approch on the far end so 1309 can use it.

Again, another black eye.  Track is so basic.  Who dropped the ball?

@Dominic Mazoch posted:

Maybe a blessing.  Get the track fixed before 1309 runs on it with passengers.  And see and fix, if needed the turntable approch on the far end so 1309 can use it.

Again, another black eye.  Track is so basic.  Who dropped the ball?

Just my opinion but, I don't believe the "management" of that operation could organize a one car funeral!

Wow. Thanks for the link Gary. John

looks like they have been ignoring it for a long time 50,000 ties don't go bad over night, you do need a track crew on a regular basis to keep things up and do inspections especially when running passenger service. as for a major project like that the only way is to contract it out it can't be done by a normal maintenance crew.

The track  between the station and the narrows has needed work for a long time. If you watch videos of the 734 the engine almost rocks itself right off the rail.

This certainly causes rain on the parade.

True, this is deferred maintenance, not an overnight situation.  If the FRA Track Inspector made regular periodic visits, we would presume that the tie condition has been noted for some time as it grew worse.  Normally, FRA does not just drop something like this on a railroad.  It would not be a surprise if the railroad had been notified of tie defects by way of written violations (probably not fined every time, as a Class 1 road would have been) and if subsequent inspections have developed no evidence of a tie replacement plan with an eye toward full compliance with track standards.  If that is the case, then that would explain the FRA's Order.  The FRA tries to get voluntary cooperation when it finds violations, and only takes action of this magnitude after repeated attempts to see improvement.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

After reading the article I scrolled further to the comments section.  One gentleman states he worked those tracks for 17 years and they were in top condition when he left in 2015.  I didn't imagine ties deteriorating so much in 5 years but then I don't know anything either.

Well, certainly not good news. I'm just a few hours away from Cumberland and have been up there many times for the WMSR. Looks like things will be idle for quite some time.

Darn it. The Great Allegheny Passage and WMSR are two 'bucket-list' items I have been aching to get to. But the long drive from Boston has deterred me. Needless to say, the events of the past 11 months have made me regret not visiting the area sooner, and now this. I hope they come up with the dough.

@johnstrains posted:

Looks like things will be idle for quite some time.

Probably, unless a few of those big mouth millionaires around DC chip in and donate the money to keep this historic RR running.

I feel sorry for the guy that had to count all the bad ones.

Thats a shame, though. Hopefully they find a way.

@Cumberland Valley posted:

After reading the article I scrolled further to the comments section.  One gentleman states he worked those tracks for 17 years and they were in top condition when he left in 2015.

Anybody can post anything on the internet, but in my opinion, I don't believe THAT for one second.

  I didn't imagine ties deteriorating so much in 5 years but then I don't know anything either.

I believe that a track condition "survey" report on the WMSR came out in 2019, and it was not very favorable concerning tie condition. Thus, things have been left "unattended" for many, MANY years.

That's a bummer. I bet the price of 50000 ties is pretty steep in general but maybe they could for a historic chain gang with some volunteers and get to it. I just gotta wonder if the rails have been bent/damaged from improper support.

@BillYo414 posted:

That's a bummer. I bet the price of 50000 ties is pretty steep in general but maybe they could for a historic chain gang with some volunteers and get to it. I just gotta wonder if the rails have been bent/damaged from improper support.

Rails are pretty durable so they should be fine.  But as someone who has done some limited volunteer track work, you aren't getting volunteers to replace 50,000 ties in anything like a reasonable time frame, especially if you are relying on hand tools.

Given that the fully automated track laying machines only do a mile or a bit more a day, I suspect it would take a really long time for people to do this much track with hand tools!

It is out of the question to think that volunteers with hand tools can replace 50,000 ties. It would take years. Besides, there is a lot more to this job than just replacing the ties.

If the FRA has said they cannot run passenger trains, it means the track is now classed as "Excepted Track." Passenger trains cannot operate on Excepted Track.

Here's a table of the various track classifications. I think the WM would like to eventually get their track up to Class 2. There would be no need to go higher than that.

• The lowest class is referred to as Excepted Track. Freight trains can operate at a maximum speed of 10 mph.
  Passenger trains are not permitted to run on Excepted Track.
  Hazardous material cannot be moved over excepted track.
  
  
• Class 1 - Class 3 track allows operation of freight and passenger trains with various restricted speeds
  
  
• Class 4 track is the most common for regular commuter and passenger railroads allowing the typical full speed of the train.
  
  
• Class 5 track is less common, allowing higher speeds. It is expected that as demand for track speed increases, Class 5 track will become more common.
  
  
• Class 6 track is for freight trains and passenger trains traveling up to 110 mph. This is the classification level necessary for the higher-speed trains currently planned for future service.
  
  
• Class 7 limits all trains to 125 mph.
  Most of Amtrak's Northeast Corridor is Class 7 track (used on the Amtrak Acela Train).
  
  
• Class 8 track is very limited, a few segments exist in the Northeast Corridor.
  
  
• Class 9 track limits all trains to 200 mph. There is no Class 9 track currently in the USA.

At a standard 19-1/2" tie spacing, there are 3,250 ties per mile. 50,000 ties translates to 15.38 miles of track. If they were to "boardwalk" it (replace every tie), the job is a big hurdle. However, they may be able to get the track back up to Class 1 by replacing only every other tie this year. They could then get the remaining ties in over the next year or two, and eventually achieve class 2 status.

However, there is a lot more to this than just replacing the ties. The track will have to be surfaced after the ties are replaced. "Surfacing" involves the use of a machine called a Tamper. This machine will move over a section of the track, plotting every little bump and wiggle in the track into the on-board computer. The tamper then backs up to the point where it started plotting. The operator looks at where the track is now, with all of its bumps and wiggles, then plots a line for the computer to follow, placing the track where he wants it to be when the tamper is finished. The computer then moves the tamper down the line one tie at a time, lifting it, moving it, leveling it, vibrating it (so ballast goes under the tie), and placing the tie and rails exactly where they should be to make the track smooth and level.

A Ballast Regulator may also be needed to clean up the ballast and get it all placed back where it should be. The ballast really gets disturbed and scattered about in the process of replacing ties.

No matter how you look at this, it is a big job for even a fully mechanized gang.

I'm from So Cal (not anymore) and Metro-link uses Concrete ballast with spring loaded tie down of a sort just m .02

I really hate to say it but a real money pit.  1309 a engine with no place to run.

thanks Rich for the explanation

@Jessecue posted:

I'm from So Cal (not anymore) and Metro-link uses Concrete ballast with spring loaded tie down of a sort just m .02

Of course you must mean "concrete TIES", and granite "ballast", with "spring loaded tie down" (think they are called 'Pandal clips'). Most all the big class one freight railroads use pretty much the same system. That said, the various passenger carrying commuter hauling railroad lines in the Chicago metro area, still use treated oak (WOOD) ties, as the concrete ties tend to provide too harsh of a ride for passenger equipment, plus it is MUCH harder on the locomotive DC traction motors.

Changing to all concrete ties on the WMSR would be EXTREMELY expensive, and since they only a 30 MPH railroad, there would be absolutely no need to waste THAT much money on concrete ties.

Rich you are correct, Western Maryland doesn't need 50,000 ties. its actually closer to 11,000 ties to get to class 2 standard. A few miles of the north end at Frostburg is relatively new track. Plus the work that was done at the mine cave in and the rock slide. They do need to surface the line for sure. The report back 2019 detailed several of the issues. 1309 just drove them to the poor house.   

I believe the Western Maryland RR had rebuilt the line just before CSX  took them over.  Time has just run out on the ties from that period. The CSX portion in WVA is in terrible shape you can see that in the 1309 video's. The RR is/ was inserting ties on a limited budget as reported.

I will run with Rich's observations.

If you are going to do ties, why not go ahead and do subrade and ballast. Lots of money, but one wil be doing right from the get go.

@Dominic Mazoch posted:

I will run with Rich's observations.

If you are going to do ties, why not go ahead and do subrade and ballast. Lots of money, but one wil be doing right from the get go.

There's no need to do anything with the subgrade. That's just making work where none is needed.

All the railroad needs is ties, surfacing and maybe a few hundred tons of ballast here and there.

I'm sorry to hear this.  I made a small contribution to the 1309 and I hope to get a ride behind it someday.

Being a bike rider at least I can use the Trail! John

"Deferred Maintenance" is ultimately more costly -- sooner or later -- than the hoped-for short-term savings.  I've seen multi-unit UP track maintenance equipment in operation; a fascinating process to watch and EXPENSIVE to perform. I've heard the figure:  $1 million per mile.

Mike Mottler    LCCA 12394

@Trinity River Bottoms Boomer posted:

harmonyards: Please don't misunderstand me.  I don't want to see any railroad go under.  But the facts remain that maintainence is a Must Do Priority ALWAYS.  I witnessed the gross negligence of maintainence on the M-K-T back in 61 and watched the rapid decay of my favorite childhood railroad.  The hurt ran deep!  Today, Katy's gone, having disappeared in a flood of Armour Yellow and Harbormist Grey.  A new hurt indeed!

Indeed, I honestly hope WMSR the very best and that they'll get back on track (no pun intended) ASAP for all to enjoy, railroader and railfan alike.  Sorry for my outburst.  I sincerely apologise!

Joe

The Katy track almost went down again when they started to do run through trains off BN to the LCRA electrical plant near La Grange TX.

Good track is a must!

Hazardous material can be moved over excepted track. No more than 5 cars at a time, and all your approaches to grade crossings and bridges have to be maintained for 100 feet each side, to class 1 standards.

Rusty

@Hot Water posted:

Of course you must mean "concrete TIES", and granite "ballast", with "spring loaded tie down" (think they are called 'Pandal clips').

Pandrol clips.

https://www.pandrol.com/product/e-clip/

For Hot Water,

I am curious to learn why concrete ties are harder on DC traction motors?

Thanks,

Steve

@Rich Melvin posted:

It is out of the question to think that volunteers with hand tools can replace 50,000 ties. It would take years. Besides, there is a lot more to this job than just replacing the ties.

If the FRA has said they cannot run passenger trains, it means the track is now classed as "Excepted Track." Passenger trains cannot operate on Excepted Track.

Here's a table of the various track classifications. I think the WM would like to eventually get their track up to Class 2. There would be no need to go higher than that.

Track Classification	Freight	Passenger
Excepted Track	10 mph	Not Allowed
Class 1 Track	10 mph	15 mph
Class 2 Track	25 mph	30 mph
Class 3 Track	40 mph	60 mph
Class 4 Track	60 mph	80 mph
Class 5 Track	80 mph	90 mph
Class 6 Track	110 mph	110 mph
Class 7 Track	125 mph	125 mph
Class 8 Track	160 mph	160 mph
Class 9 Track	200 mph	200 mph

• The lowest class is referred to as Excepted Track. Freight trains can operate at a maximum speed of 10 mph.
  Passenger trains are not permitted to run on Excepted Track.
  Hazardous material cannot be moved over excepted track.
  
  
• Class 1 - Class 3 track allows operation of freight and passenger trains with various restricted speeds
  
  
• Class 4 track is the most common for regular commuter and passenger railroads allowing the typical full speed of the train.
  
  
• Class 5 track is less common, allowing higher speeds. It is expected that as demand for track speed increases, Class 5 track will become more common.
  
  
• Class 6 track is for freight trains and passenger trains traveling up to 110 mph. This is the classification level necessary for the higher-speed trains currently planned for future service.
  
  
• Class 7 limits all trains to 125 mph.
  Most of Amtrak's Northeast Corridor is Class 7 track (used on the Amtrak Acela Train).
  
  
• Class 8 track is very limited, a few segments exist in the Northeast Corridor.
  
  
• Class 9 track limits all trains to 200 mph. There is no Class 9 track currently in the USA.

At a standard 19-1/2" tie spacing, there are 3,250 ties per mile. 50,000 ties translates to 15.38 miles of track. If they were to "boardwalk" it (replace every tie), the job is a big hurdle. However, they may be able to get the track back up to Class 1 by replacing only every other tie this year. They could then get the remaining ties in over the next year or two, and eventually achieve class 2 status.

However, there is a lot more to this than just replacing the ties. The track will have to be surfaced after the ties are replaced. "Surfacing" involves the use of a machine called a Tamper. This machine will move over a section of the track, plotting every little bump and wiggle in the track into the on-board computer. The tamper then backs up to the point where it started plotting. The operator looks at where the track is now, with all of its bumps and wiggles, then plots a line for the computer to follow, placing the track where he wants it to be when the tamper is finished. The computer then moves the tamper down the line one tie at a time, lifting it, moving it, leveling it, vibrating it (so ballast goes under the tie), and placing the tie and rails exactly where they should be to make the track smooth and level.

A Ballast Regulator may also be needed to clean up the ballast and get it all placed back where it should be. The ballast really gets disturbed and scattered about in the process of replacing ties.

No matter how you look at this, it is a big job for even a fully mechanized gang.

Thank you for the detailed explanation Rich!   Much appreciated!

@Cumberland Valley posted:

One gentleman states he worked those tracks for 17 years and they were in top condition when he left in 2015.  I didn't imagine ties deteriorating so much in 5 years but then I don't know anything either.

Actually, you do know something.  You are right to question ties deteriorating that much in 5 years, because they didn't.

But you may wonder "What constitutes a defective tie?" ( 'bad' tie)

All but the very worst ties look fine from a distance, but close inspection is needed to determine of a tie is cracked or broken.  Plate cutting, where the tie plate gets pressed down into the body of the tie is another defect, as is the inability of the tie to hold spikes, which will be evidenced by (what else?) loose spikes sticking up or missing.  That kind of deterioration should take 15 to 20 years for wood ties on Class 1 railroad main tracks.

That's what FRA Track Inspectors look for on ties.  A certain number of defective ties within a measured distance is allowed, but as the FRA Track Classification moves to the higher numbers you see on Rich Melvin's chart, the number of defective ties allowed goes downward.

And, while it's not a nice thing to do, to just "pile on" the Western Maryland Scenic management over this, it is evident, while that those in charge may have been good guys with a passion for the steam train operation, they did not manage the railroad well, except in certain respects.  There surely are trustees or a Board of Directors, and they, too, failed in their duty to oversee and guide the managers by knowing the financials, and prudently authorizing the budget annually.  Maybe none of them had  experience at a high enough level to manage a large budget.  If so, they were not the right people, because that's what directors appointed to do!  But looking backward and administering beatings does not fix anything.

Nobody thinks that this was intentional, but, if they intend to remain in business, they need somebody in charge now,  with the vision and knowledge of railroad operations to see the whole picture and with the skill to manage the entire business, including the ability to deal with donors and local governments and the courage to make unpopular decisions when necessary.  And that General Manager must know and be able to explain the cost of everything to the directors and present a realistic budget request annually.  They may need new directors, including a couple of political ones to appease the local community, but a majority should have real business experience at a high level and not necessarily be from the local area, so as to be objective.  A steam tourist railroad cannot be run like a model railroad club.  It's a capital-intensive business, even if it is a non-profit corporation.  How else are they going to get their arms around this and make a viable plan to exist?  Right now, it's a sinkhole with a really nice articulated steam engine.

There is a bike trail, that shares the right-of-way.  I wasn't sure how that was going to work with an active railroad, but it did/does.  One of my trips to Cumberland, with My grandson, We loaded the bikes, in the baggage car (additional fee), unloaded, Frostburg, and biked back to Cumberland.  Recent subsidence has also affected the Bike Trail.   Eventually everyone has to look at cost, it was great while it lasted, IMO, Mike CT.

One of the bike trips, I took this picture, I'm sure this was repaired. Picture 2007 or 2008, near the Brush Tunnel??

Where I live the BR&W has been replacing ties and reballasting track where needed heading back towards Lambertville. The track section had been closed down since either 1989-1990(can't quite remember what year for sure). It took a while for them to decide to pursue fixing the line and has been a slow and steady process.

They have worked at this for sometime, I think since around 2010 or 2012(I think they started somewhere around there). I do recall some years back that there was a washout along the line where the ballast was completely gone for a section about 3-5 foot stretch. They had on their website the progress of the work back around 2015-2016.

In 2019 they had advertised the Sunset Special which ran out to the old Bowne Station stop where local farmers used to bring their produce in the late 1800's-1900's. The ride out there was slow and steady with some interesting scenery that I had not seen since I was a boy. I think one of the trains I had gone on was in the late 1970's which went all the way to Lambertville.

The work out there was not just the rails, but also the overgrowth that naturally happened on an out of use line. While this is probably not the case(the overgrowth I mean) for the Western Maryland, the work with the ties and ballast probably is. I would imagine that the work involved in fixing the track would be much like here, slow and steady. Granted I have no idea on how many people they have to work on track or if they have the equipment handy to do so.

I am curious that if work is done, would inspections be monthly on work sections as well as the trackage overall or does inspection happen bimonthly or based on traffic?

@Mike CT posted:

There is a bike trail, that shares the right-of-way.  I wasn't sure how that was going to work with an active railroad, but it did/does.  One of my trips to Cumberland, with My grandson, We loaded the bikes, in the baggage car (additional fee), unloaded, Frostburg, and biked back to Cumberland.  Recent subsidence has also affected the Bike Trail.   Eventually everyone has to look at cost, it was great while it lasted, IMO, Mike CT.

One of the bike trips, I took this picture, I'm sure this was repaired. Picture 2007 or 2008, near the Brush Tunnel??

Mike, how long of a bike ride?  I was thinking of doing the same with my son if and when they re-open.

Just in from Railfan/Railroad:

http://railfan.com/with-co-130...KjW38kZ9yJJS4WLU8gKM

Jon

@KOOLjock1 posted:

Just in from Railfan/Railroad:

http://railfan.com/with-co-130...KjW38kZ9yJJS4WLU8gKM

Jon

Thanks.  While still a significant challenge, it seems the news got it wrong again.  Looks like they have a plan of attack.

@KOOLjock1 posted:

Just in from Railfan/Railroad:

http://railfan.com/with-co-130...KjW38kZ9yJJS4WLU8gKM

Jon

Interesting Jon. Thanks for the link. I guess there are two sides to the story, no surprise there.

Whether it's 50,000 or 16,000 the price tag is 2.5 million.  Good luck.