What did you think of your very first mth railking locomotive?

mlavender480 posted:

Mine is a CSX SD70ACe, just purchased from forum member Mike Caruso- I’m highly impressed! Great sound, smooth operation, flashing ditch lights- I can see why the modern stuff is so popular.  I’m not giving up my traditional trains, but there might be more RK units in my future...

My first RailKing was a CSX SD70ACe also.  It was my first dip into O gauge after 45 years in HO and N.  By the spring of 2012, I was having trouble seeing and holding onto small things.  After seeing some MTH trains at Mercer Junction Train Shoppe, and Dave's wonderful in store layout, I was hooked!  From that day on, I never even noticed the third rail, even though during all that time in smaller scales I thought the 3rd rail looked phony.  

Though I prefer steam and first generation diesels, Dave fixed me up with that Imperial SD70ACe at a great deal, and it was just the thing to whet my appetite.  After buying some scale RailKing first generation diesels and used Premier steamers, I sold the SD70ACe to a Forum member in Texas I believe.  However, I will never forget how it impressed me after running conventional HO and N engines for so long.

My first MTH engine was a RailKing 0-8-0 switcher with Proto 1. It changed my thinking about three rail scale. Got two more RailKing steamers and a Premiere FM switcher, all with Protosound one. Soon my post was Lionel engines were boxed up and stored. I changed to scale MTH a few years later, then a few Atlas and scale Lionel with one Weaver brass engine. I never looked back. Don

I picked up my first MTH Premier locomotive this past fall - a SD60E in the veterans paint. It runs great and is a beautiful locomotive. I have two more locos on layaway at my local hobby shop and one on order. 

Since I have gotten back into the hobby, MTH is all I have considered. 

- Carl

Since you asked, my first and only MTH loco was a PRR Alco RS1 (from the Railking  PS3 run a couple of years ago). It is a beautiful model that could easily be a Premier instead of Railking. However, when I tried to run it on my club’s modules, it would not run, even though it worked on DCS during the test run at the LHS when I first bought it. Fortunately, my LHS ultimately was able to reset the system and restore it to operation, but that was not an easy task, and took several attempts before success was achieved. After going through all that aggravation, I have not tried to run the loco since. I was very disappointed because it was advertised as  being DCC compatible (that’s how I planned to run it, since I already owned a full house DCC System), but after the MTH catalog was printed and sent out, MTH eliminated the DCC conversion switch on Railking locos. My understanding is that the DCC circuitry is built in the board, and I could add the switch myself if I knew where to connect it (which I don’t), but doing so would void any factory warranty. That has soured me on any locos or electronics from MTH from this point on, and will not be buying any in the future (although I still like some MTH rolling stock). Since that time, I have purchased a couple LionChief locos, and have decided I like that system better, anyway.

Bill in FtL

Bill Nielsen posted:

 I was very disappointed because it was advertised as  being DCC compatible (that’s how I planned to run it, since I already owned a full house DCC System), but after the MTH catalog was printed and sent out, 

 

Since that time, I have purchased a couple LionChief locos, and have decided I like that system better, anyway.

So you have a full house DCC system and was attracted by the DCC compatibility. But then you buy a train that is not DCC compatible in any capacity?

Adding the DCC switch shouldn't void your warranty and it is pretty easy to do.

My first and only railking is a 30-2624-1 Alco rs-1...I'am not a fan of MTH,but the sound is the best I have heard...the bell is loud and clear,the diesel is ALCO...Marbles in a mixer....love it....

It was 1998 and the RK engine was a NYC Hudson. It ran well for about 2 years and then after a summer of not using - it got locked into neutral. I got it fixed and within a year PS1 technology was outdated. Since then the technology in toy trains has grown quite fast.

H1000 posted:

Bill Nielsen posted:

 I was very disappointed because it was advertised as  being DCC compatible (that’s how I planned to run it, since I already owned a full house DCC System), but after the MTH catalog was printed and sent out, 

 

Since that time, I have purchased a couple LionChief locos, and have decided I like that system better, anyway.

So you have a full house DCC system and was attracted by the DCC compatibility. But then you buy a train that is not DCC compatible in any capacity?

Adding the DCC switch shouldn't void your warranty and it is pretty easy to do.

There were some PS3 locos equipped with this DCC switch.  I have an ABA F3 PRR set (30-20076-1) that has the switch on the powered unit.  I noticed on subsequent PS3 engines the switch was missing and, although I don’t run DCC, contacted MTH to ask about its absence.  Their response was in line with what Bill posted about the board having the capability but, the owner would have to install the switch.

I’ll agree with H1000 that either adding this switch yourself or having an authorized MTH tech do it for you shouldn’t void the warranty. 

Curt

H1000 posted:

Bill Nielsen posted:

 I was very disappointed because it was advertised as  being DCC compatible (that’s how I planned to run it, since I already owned a full house DCC System), but after the MTH catalog was printed and sent out, 

 

Since that time, I have purchased a couple LionChief locos, and have decided I like that system better, anyway.

So you have a full house DCC system and was attracted by the DCC compatibility. But then you buy a train that is not DCC compatible in any capacity?

Adding the DCC switch shouldn't void your warranty and it is pretty easy to do.

Stating that LionChief + “is not DCC compatible in any capacity” is simply false, because I can run a LC+ loco quite nicely on a DCC layout using the LC+ controller and the available DCC track power. The LC+ is not affected by the control signal from the DCC system, nor does the LC+ transmitter affect any DCC loco. LC+ will also work on a DCS, TMCC or Legacy layout in much the same fashion. Since the MTH Railking RS1 was to be my first O 3-rail DCC loco, it not being DCC compatible means that I didn’t even need to connect the DCC System to the layout. The RS1 will just have to sit on the shelf while I run my LionChief locos, because it is the one that is not compatible. However, it also means that I will not be buying any more MTH locos in the future, no matter how nice they might look!

And, since American Flyer has recently come out with FlyerChief, which runs on two rails instead of three, I have decided that I really prefer S Gauge anyway. So, I probably won’t be needing any more O 3-rail locos in the future, either, the two LC+ engines I already have will be just fine for the times when I want to run something on the club layout.

Bill in FtL

Bill Nielsen posted:

Stating that LionChief + “is not DCC compatible in any capacity” is simply false, because I can run a LC+ loco quite nicely on a DCC layout using the LC+ controller and the available DCC track power. The LC+ is not affected by the control signal from the DCC system, nor does the LC+ transmitter affect any DCC loco. LC+ will also work on a DCS, TMCC or Legacy layout in much the same fashion.

When MTH says "ProtoSound 3 is compatible with DCC" they mean that the engine can receive DCC commands respond to those commands, and  cooperate with a DCC control system

When Lionel says "Legacy is compatible with TMCC" they mean that a Legacy engine can receive signals from from a TMCC control system, respond to those commands and cooperate with a TMCC control system.

When MTH says "DCS is compatible with TMCC & Legacy" they mean that a TMCC / Legacy engine can receive signals from a DCS control system (via a BASE), respond to those signals and the two control systems can cooperate with each other.

LC+ is it own thing. It can use the same power source and run on the same rails but that is where the "compatibility" ends. DCC, TMCC, Legacy, and DCS control systems cannot communicate with LC+. It would be like erroneously saying a 1990 IBM PC and a 1990 Apple Macintosh are compatible because they can coexist on the same desk and use the same power source. However these two computers are anything but compatible.

LC+ can coexist with other systems without causing interference but it is not compatible with the digital communication system they use.

Coexistence with another system is not the same thing as Compatibility with that system.

Great explanation H1000

I was first smitten by the railking K4s in 1997. The first 3-rail "traditional sized" (read 027 gauge) K4 that had the correct wheel arrangement and headlight placement that i was aware of. Had to have one, but they were sold out quickly. I had to wait until the next year when they were cataloged again. Loved it then and still love to run it occasionally now. Got a ps 2 version in the 2000's that sees more run time now, though.

This is my first MTH purchase from the early 90's, NPR Bershire 759,  a simple great running berk. Good ol conventional engine. What I really liked back then is that the lights in the caboose are always lite, didn't flicker like Lionel did back then. Recently finally had to out new traction tires on her.

Love all Railking locos, first ever purchase was NYC Hudson whistle only version. Paid $190.00 from Charles Ro, at Allentown first frost meet in 1999. Still have it run it often and it operates as new. Have collected more than 50 now and all run well.

H1000 said: “When MTH says "ProtoSound 3 is compatible with DCC" they mean that the engine can receive DCC commands respond to those commands, and cooperate with a DCC control system”

Really? So, what happens when I put my MTH RailKing “DCC compatible” RS1 on tracks that are powered by a DCC System? Without the switch that MTH chose to leave off, it will not run, and the circuitry onboard might suffer damage from not being switched into the proper mode.

The original thread was “What did you think of your first MTH Railking locomotive?”, and that’s the question I answered. H1000 goes on to discuss the semantics of compatibility vs. coexistence while overlooking the fact that the MTH loco in question is neither compatible nor can it coexist with DCC, despite MTH’s catalog advertisement claims to the contrary. He also questions the logic of purchasing an LC+ loco while really being interested in DCC, but at least the LC+ loco will work on a layout powered by DCC, when the MTH/Railking “DCC compatible” loco will not!

For this reason, I will not be a future MTH DCS customer in any scale!

Bill in FtL

Bill Nielsen posted:

H1000 said: “When MTH says "ProtoSound 3 is compatible with DCC" they mean that the engine can receive DCC commands respond to those commands, and cooperate with a DCC control system”

Really? So, what happens when I put my MTH RailKing “DCC compatible” RS1 on tracks that are powered by a DCC System? Without the switch that MTH chose to leave off, it will not run, and the circuitry onboard might suffer damage from not being switched into the proper mode.

 

 

Bill,

Directly from the manual of your RS1 engine: (link)

Your circuitry will be just fine.

The switch was removed as DCC operation (especially by those who buy Railking engines) is not very common in O gauge and people would report engines as DOA if the switch was in the wrong position. The DCC functions are still present in all ProtoSound 3 boards whether they be Premier, Railking, or upgrade kits. The Switch was not removed from the premier line of engines as DCC functionality is more popular with those products.

For the very extremely few people who are series about operating a Railking engine with DCC, it can be done. My 12 year old nephew was able to replace the defective smoke on/off switch in his first TMCC engine, the process of adding this switch is identical. If he can do it, I think you could to, it really is easy.

"Coexistence with another system is not the same thing as Compatibility with that system."

I think they are, in simple English and functional utility, almost exactly the same thing, although the implementation specifics may vary.

Compatibility is, however,  not the same as "interoperability" which means you can interchange the locos and control methods without loss of function.  Computers aren't trains .  My Apple and Android devices are compatible in that they can operate in the same room.  They aren't interoperable. 

Bill's point, to be more serious, is that he can easily operate LC and LC+ in any control environment, command or conventional.  That isn't true of PS3 (won't operate in command mode on a TMCC/Legacy layout) nor PS2/PS1.  It also isn't true of TMCC or Legacy if it's a DCS layout without a Lionel command base.  So truly LC+ is the only current command loco that can be operated without any concerns in any environment without any additional purchases of equipment/cable/magic wand. Doesn't get any more compatible than that, even if it isn't interoperable in the least. . Your mileage may vary, but that's my way of looking at it.

My first Railking was a very early PS1 F3 ABA Texas Special that is a shelf queen,  because I cannot be bothered to operate PS1 in conventional,  and I cannot find the heart to change the innards of a birthday present from my wife.  My second Railking was a GG1 I bought for myself,  which got Ed Bender's TrainBrain TMCC upgrade. 

In summary, I really didn't like PS1, despite the fact that MTH made and makes beautiful, well designed and built locos, but with a control system (PS1) that now is a pretty good definition of "kludge."  Mostly due to the internal battery and its foreseen and unforeseen glitches/inconvenience.  Haven't bought too many RailKing PS2 or PS3, not because they aren't lovely locos, but because I am not a fan of using DCS.  Just one man's take on it.

"Computers aren't trains"
Yet modern trains rely heavily on computers, microprocessors, and electronics to operate.

Earlier this year at a show, I asked a Lionel rep this exact question:

ME: "So LionChief is compatible with any layout control system?"
REP:"It can Coexist with these systems but it cannot directly interact them nor exchange control communications. Lionchief has a dedicated wireless control that does not operate with any other system."
ME: "Not even TMCC or Legacy?"
REP: "No, but the newest release of legacy engines can be run using the Universal Remote or app."
ME: "Can LionChief Engines operate with each other in a lash-up?"
REP: "No. But there are some powered ABA sets that will only work with dedicated B units in those sets."
ME: "not even using the app?"
REP: " The LC app can only control one engine at a time. You must stop and disconnect from one engine to control another."

The rep was very careful not to use the word compatible and very adamant that LC only coexists without interfering.

I work heavily in IT and Farming. When somebody says two things are compatible, that means more than they can sit on the same desk and plug into the same power strip. They do more than simply coexisting side by side while doing there own thing unaware of each other. When two of our networked systems interoperate, that means those two systems can exchange data and/or manipulate each other. If I have a Green tractor and buy a Red implement for it to work some ground, these two manufactures have methods to make sure that the two pieces of equipment are compatible. The two machines now interoperate as one to complete the task, one piece has the ability to control & influence the other and vice versa.

The LC+ shares the rails and power, it does not interact with the other engines that are on the same track nor do those other engines/control systems have any way to interact with LC+. There is also no equipment available as of yet to interoperate LC+ engines with another control system on the market. I hope this will happen someday.

As pointed out, there is an advantage to this. The LC+ can run regardless of the control system implemented on the layout making it very adaptable to any environment. However, you can only use the included LC control system to run those LC+ engines and as of right now there is no way to connect LC+ engines to another control system making their control system much less scalable than other control systems currently available. I hope this would change, it would be nice to expand those LC+ engines with other control systems.

Well, hopefully you and your family can be compatible, co-exist and interoperate.  

My first MTH Rail King engines were used engines that needed tlc...so didn't speak for the breed.

The Railking that set the clock is a Railking Imperial N&W Y6b...PS-2...runs like a clock...smokes like tires burning...awesome steamboat whistle and great chuffing. 

Sold me on the brand...but I'm not brand specific...IMO all have something to love...and also not...just like anything else.