What does the hobby need???

C W Burfle posted:

Worst thing that ever happened was Eric Siegel putting the "traditional" GG-1 and the scale GG-1 on the track next to each other in that VisionLine review...my old GG-1s never looked the same since!!!

You can't un-see it!!!

I don't need to in-see it. I'll take the traditional GG-1 any day.

They look fine to me. Plus I will never have a layout with curves that are wide enough to run a scale GG-1.

I have a genuine Postwar Lionel 2360 GG-1 out on my layout right now. Between it's weight and powerful magnetraction, it is one heck of a puller. It's range of speeds suits me too.

If I wanted scale, I'd do HO.

During the later '60's I road to and from college on the SCL Silver Star many times. They were powered by EMD E-units. While standing right next to those beauties, your visual perspective gives you the appearance that the height of the height:length ratio tended to overpower its length, such that when you saw an actual model of a scale EMD E-unit it looked too long. My mind tended to perceive E-units closer to F-unit length.

I would suppose the GG-1 does likewise. 

This is my first time posting and I am fairly new  to model trains being 43 years old. I had a Lionel set as a kid but ended up collecting farm toys as a hobby. Being an outsider I see both points that the hobby is declining but also see a lot of younger faces at shows I have attended. I see where price can be deterant from someone getting into the hobby. The new legacy stuff is nice but for a child or even young adult who has a family it gets expensive.  My wife and I both make 6 figures but with a house and a young child I still have to budget what I am buying as I construct a layout. I think the hobby is growing just not at the rate it has in years past and people are being more selective in what they are buying. 

"As we all should know, the hobby of model trains has been on the downward slope for many years.  The "peak", I think would have been about 1960."

1960? What? I remember 1960 - the hobby, especially the 3RO end of it, was lousy. The peak was, truly, about 5 years ago. The slide has begun (note the prices of used equipment and "estate sales"), certainly, and it is permanent. There will always be model RRing, especially N and HO scale modeling. Bt even 3RO will probably never be as bad as it was in 1960.

We confuse the year when something "peaked" with the year when we "peaked". I don't miss the past (OK, I miss the 70's), but I do miss being young. I was 12 in 1960.

This sounds a lot like the people in car clubs complaining no one is getting into the old car hobby. It's all about cost. Old cars/model trains are not a cheap hobby (believe me I know, I'm in both). Wonder why young people aren't involved? It's expensive. You're not going to replace the aging out boomers untill the younger generation starts making some money.

I'm in my early 30s and I'm the only one of my friends who has model trains. Once I got to high school I didn't even talk about trains to anyone. It was poison on the dating scene. There's a reputation that follows a model rail roader. Maybe we should work on that. Even now, when my wife occasionally goes to shows with me, she notices the "rough" elements that give our hobby a bad name. This is not exclusive to model rail roading, as the old car hobby has plenty of rough people as well.

All in all you can't force people to be life long train fans. If they are interested they will seek out the hobby. Until then more cheap postwar stuff for me.

Once again...I think its on the parents to get their kids exposed to model trains.  I've seen plenty of parents that "encourage/make" their kids to take music lessons or play sports (whether or not the kids wanted to participate) because the parents thought that it was "good" for their children.  While many kids quit after several years, some stayed with it.   Sooooo, if the parents could get it in their mindsets that playing with model trains is good for them because it exposes kids to computers/software/mechanical/electronic concepts and problem solving skills when the trains don't work quite right, maybe the parents would get on-board.  Just a thought...

What this hobby needs is less over-generalization.  It is a diverse, multi-facetted hobby with all sorts valid of approaches, and no single ONE of them (or even closely related group of them) is going to be healthy for it.

Just because you and the handful of people you know like some aspect of does not make that aspect the Holy Grail of Model Railroad Salvation.

C W Burfle posted:

Worst thing that ever happened was Eric Siegel putting the "traditional" GG-1 and the scale GG-1 on the track next to each other in that VisionLine review...my old GG-1s never looked the same since!!!

You can't un-see it!!!

I don't need to in-see it. I'll take the traditional GG-1 any day.

They look fine to me. Plus I will never have a layout with curves that are wide enough to run a scale GG-1.

I have a genuine Postwar Lionel 2360 GG-1 out on my layout right now. Between it's weight and powerful magnetraction, it is one heck of a puller. It's range of speeds suits me too.

If I wanted scale, I'd do HO.

All one needs to do is check out Dr. Chucks wonderful toy train layout from a bygone era posted on another recent thread to get an idea of what the hobby is missing today.  My guess is folks that started with great intentions (not the starter set crowd) are leaving this hobby today at a ratio of 10 to 1.  Building medium to large toy train layouts with tons of charm & stuffed with working accessories has been replaced with serious Hi rail scale model railroading.   Today, if you're not into detailing, accurate puffs of smoke, close coupling, accurate sound,  weathered buildings and all else that cost limits participation beyond a few long circles of track, its just not fun anymore.  There's far too many less costly alternatives to this hobby that put those non- essential dollars to better use...... 

At a large local show this past Sunday you had to look real hard to find anyone under 50 and most were looking for steals and blowout pricing.  Asking prices at that show were among the lowest I've seen anywhere at anytime . Folks were taking what they can to get because they realize the hobby has become repetitive and much more expensive while depreciation has increased every year for the past decade.   Most are throwing in the towel...

joe 

KINGFISH posted:

Once again...I think its on the parents to get their kids exposed to model trains.  I've seen plenty of parents that "encourage/make" their kids to take music lessons or play sports (whether or not the kids wanted to participate) because the parents thought that it was "good" for their children.  While many kids quit after several years, some stayed with it.   Sooooo, if the parents could get it in their mindsets that playing with model trains is good for them because it exposes kids to computers/software/mechanical/electronic concepts and problem solving skills when the trains don't work quite right, maybe the parents would get on-board.  Just a thought...

What the parents gonna tell them? 

They can't go out and play or get sent to their room without supper if they don't play with their trains? 

Maybe they can't go do their homework until they're done with the trains...

Rusty

I think there is still same value in the Scout/Marx/K-Line O27 sized cars with O27 track.  Not scale, but smaller sized to fit into smaller houses.  And one could use those O27 car molds to make S scale by just swapping trucks.  Marx O27 stuff wad near or at S scale.

brianel_k-lineguy posted:

 As with nearly anytime you see a thread here about a kid playing with trains, it's on DAD's train layout. What happened to a son having his OWN train layout and then dad playing with that with his son?? Or a dad building his son his own layout with the boy helping out?

Nope... now dad has HIS own layout. "Whoa son, slow down... you're running the trains too fast!" "No, we can't get a operating gateman. It's not scale!" "Son, we can't run that locomotive on my layout. It's not prototypical. Here's a magnifying glass so you can count the rivets and see for yourself."

I need to remember this. I built the train table because my son's received a Pennsy Flyer for Christmas. So it's their train on the main loop. Not mine.

I did also tell him to beware of going too fast ... would have hated to see him wreck his train the first time out of the box. However, sometimes the best lessons are the hardest to learn ... though would he learn it at three years of age? I'll have to figure out the answer to that question.

There will come a time when I have to give him free reign, let him into the work shop and run trains without me. I don't think that time is yet, but it will come sooner than I expect (or want ... I mean, everyone wants to feel useful - even essential - in their child's life).

I will however take these comments to heart now. There is no reason I cannot solicit his advice on accessory placement, and what trains to run, and letting him master the controls. Honestly, revealing the train to him last night and watching him run it brought immense joy.  

Rusty Traque posted:

KINGFISH posted:

Once again...I think its on the parents to get their kids exposed to model trains.  I've seen plenty of parents that "encourage/make" their kids to take music lessons or play sports (whether or not the kids wanted to participate) because the parents thought that it was "good" for their children.  While many kids quit after several years, some stayed with it.   Sooooo, if the parents could get it in their mindsets that playing with model trains is good for them because it exposes kids to computers/software/mechanical/electronic concepts and problem solving skills when the trains don't work quite right, maybe the parents would get on-board.  Just a thought...

What the parents gonna tell them? 

They can't go out and play or get sent to their room without supper if they don't play with their trains? 

Maybe they can't go do their homework until they're done with the trains...

Rusty

If model railroading isn't a part of the fathers' life chances are very good that their children will show no interest either.  As much as we won't admit it, our cherished hobby as we know it is dying a slow death.  Just look around at the shows and meets and observe the age group that's doing most of the buying.  From what I've observed I'd say 75% are retired, gray haired folks like me.  I really don't think the younger generation will carry the ball like we did.

GVDobler posted:

Most Boomers were entering high school starting in 1960.  

 Did they skip kindergarten through eighth grade?  Official US Census Bureau data says otherwise.

https://www.census.gov/prod/2014pubs/p25-1141.pdf

Come to think of it.   If you look on youtube...  LOTS AND LOTS of young people building layouts!!! And posting video of them! And I watch a LOT of YT VIDEOS!! 

Jim 

Cheaper equipment so companies can sell there equipment to more people for less, making more people buy it and they'll still be making profit.

I think the starter sets are very important. The first set I remember was a 2026 freight set in 1948. Yes it was an inexpensive set but I thought is was the most beautiful thing I had ever seen. I would hold that engine and look at the detail for hours sometimes. You would think is was a 773. Still have it and will never get rid of it. Don

@Alfred

I said the Boomers were starting high school in 1960, not that the whole group did at the same time. I graduated HS in 1965. By then the peak was over.  Twenty years later some of them had enough money to start the second wave of interest. But it was the same people, only older. And I'm sure not 100 percent of the original group was again into trains. Once the Boomers are all gone there will be very few people left with enough interest to buy up all that stuff we hold dear.

So the OP post of 1960 holds water. 

There will be railroads, trains and model trains as long as the human race does not eliminate itself by war, pollution or disease. Therefore, there will be children and adults who develop an interest in trains, become educated about them and pursue the hobby in their own way, although it may be very different than what we do now. Why should I expect them to have model trains exactly like mine were 70 years ago or even now? And, I think that O scale/O gauge will certainly have a place alongside HO and N because some people will continue to favor their size, detail and, perhaps, history.

MELGAR

Deuce posted:

brianel_k-lineguy posted:

 As with nearly anytime you see a thread here about a kid playing with trains, it's on DAD's train layout. What happened to a son having his OWN train layout and then dad playing with that with his son?? Or a dad building his son his own layout with the boy helping out?

Nope... now dad has HIS own layout. "Whoa son, slow down... you're running the trains too fast!" "No, we can't get a operating gateman. It's not scale!" "Son, we can't run that locomotive on my layout. It's not prototypical. Here's a magnifying glass so you can count the rivets and see for yourself."

I need to remember this. I built the train table because my son's received a Pennsy Flyer for Christmas. So it's their train on the main loop. Not mine.

I did also tell him to beware of going too fast ... would have hated to see him wreck his train the first time out of the box. However, sometimes the best lessons are the hardest to learn ... though would he learn it at three years of age? I'll have to figure out the answer to that question.

There will come a time when I have to give him free reign, let him into the work shop and run trains without me. I don't think that time is yet, but it will come sooner than I expect (or want ... I mean, everyone wants to feel useful - even essential - in their child's life).

I will however take these comments to heart now. There is no reason I cannot solicit his advice on accessory placement, and what trains to run, and letting him master the controls. Honestly, revealing the train to him last night and watching him run it brought immense joy.  

 When my kids were little they ran trains on my layout. What was more fun both for them and me was giving them a box of track and letting them design the floor layouts with just a little help from dad so the ends meet. Had a number of plasticville buildings too. We did not bother with any trackside operating accessories very often. We did use operating cars like milk, coal and log.

GVDobler posted:

@Alfred

I said the Boomers were starting high school in 1960, not that the whole group did at the same time. I graduated HS in 1965. By then the peak was over.  Twenty years later some of them had enough money to start the second wave of interest. But it was the same people, only older. And I'm sure not 100 percent of the original group was again into trains. Once the Boomers are all gone there will be very few people left with enough interest to buy up all that stuff we hold dear.

So the OP post of 1960 holds water.  

So you meant to say the some of the earliest Boomers were entering high school in 1960, not most Boomers.  One of the hazards of web forums.

What, me worry?

I had five kids ranging in ages from 6 to 24 at my place on Christmas Day and not one asked to see the trains run. Even the adults did not care even though I offered to show them what I have done. They all spent most of the time on their phones and iPads.

This is why I don't care  if the hobby survives or not. I enjoy the hobby along with my friends but trying to get people involved and especially kids is like banging your head against a wall. 

You can't force people to like the train hobby, they will come to it if interested. 

Dave

My father was not into trains but i was when i was 5 years old. My dad bought train sets for me and help set up a board but i did the rest. 

@Alfred

Yikes!  Doesn't change any of the facts of the OP. The peak was the 1960 era and that the Boomers kids will sell them off for pennies on the dollar. You would do better by your heirs to sell them and invest in real estate that will increase in value.

rustyrail o scale posted:

This hobby has been on a decline for several years and that's a reality as sure as death and taxes but some choose to ingnore the facts.

As far as the decline of quality well that's simple. When you manufacture something with inpure materials overseas then add electronic boards to that product your guaranteed to have problems for life. US made conventional control engines rarely had problems and most still run today even after being tortured by little Johnny sixty years ago.

As far a the younger generation grasping this hobby it ain't gonna happen in large numbers. We need to face the the fact that the internet age has taken our children and we're not getting them back.

As far as useing WiFi tablet operated trains to lure the younger generation in again it ain't gonna happen in significant numbers. No matter how interesting you may think that train looks or sounds it still only goes around in a circle and that's not going to compete with video games, Facebook etc.

So here's the bottom line. I wish I could leave my trains and my love of the hobby as my legacy to future youngsters but I know that's not going to happen. I wish all my kid's would fight over which one was going to run the trains but again that's not reality.

So here's the reality I've concluded. I'm gonna buy what I want, build what I want, and run what I want then when I'm gone I don't care what happens to it. It'll probably end up being bought by some old collector who's got some retirement checks to burn.

The Truth.

This all brings back many memories. We lived in Mill Valley Ca. starting in 1953. We had moved from Los Angels. Every boy I played with had a Lionel Electric Train except one. He had an American Flyer. We would give him a hard time but it was all in fun. When the new Lionel Catalog came out the word spread fast. Our "gang" jumped on our bikes and headed for Browns Furniture store. On the second floor they had a wall of Lionel trains. There was a hobby shop in town but they didn't sell trains. We all grabbed a catalog and were happy as a clam spending the afternoon reading and discussing what we wanted. Of course we all wanted the Sante Fe F-3 but of course none of us got one for Christmas that year or any other year. Thanks for bringing those memories back. Don

Allan Miller posted:

superwarp1 posted:

Disagree with the peak being 1960.

I certainly disagree with that as well. As I see it (and I have actively participated since the mid-1950s), the peak years were the post-World War II period up through the early 1960s, followed by an equally important peak from 1990 through about 2010 (give or take a year or two). I really don't worry all that much about the future of the hobby, and it continues to offer me more than what I need, in a material sense and otherwise. I cannot even imagine a more creative and relaxing hobby, and I know for a fact that it has enriched my life in ways no other hobby possibly could.

 

It will peak again and there will be lows. Another Mike Wolf firing up the hobby with Lionel pushing back for competition ....... a new Scott Mann delivering what each wants....

Maybe there will be models of the MagLev and/or other modern electric trains..... I believe there will always be forces that both try and push the hobby down, and others that push it forward. I'd like to think that scale models would someday earn their keep and be useful. Whatever.... I still see glimmer in young kids eyes when they see trains, So there's always hope.

As far as the younger generation goes, I think we've been doing better. Not sure if it's just me, but I've been seeing more and more kids coming to the train shows each year. And with the remotes and phones being integrated into our hobby, it creates a much better appeal. At trains shows, I set a speed limit and hand off my remote to any kid that looks interested enough for a while. That's really how I got my start in this hobby. I figure how thrilled I was in that position only a few years ago, and kinda pass it along, let others be exposed. Just my two cents

One other thing that might help is large department stores like Target, Sears and even Costco running train layouts at Christmas. Don

 

Kids are the way to build this hobby-  hence the model train manufacturer's dedication to Bluetooth and remotes.  Find a way to reach the young, and the future can be promising for the hobby we all love. 

Trains are kind of like religion.

You give them the basics when they're young - and hope they find the path and return to the fold as adults.

My first train was purchased by my grandfather when I was just a baby.  I still have it and run it yet today.  The engine is a 726 that Lionel made in 1952.  The thing is that this hobby brings a lot to the table.  Engineering, Carpentry, Electrical, Mechanical, and imagination.  

I ran my trains off and on for years and did not build a layout until a few years ago when I ran across some of Eric Siegle's videos on building a layout.  They were some great video's and his product reviews are also great.  Some may not agree with everything Eric says or does but I can assure you that he does so trying the best he can to promote the hobby.  If only 10% of us, (myself included) would put half as much effort into trying to interest folks in the hobby, it would grow much faster.  

The problem is that a lot of us are in our 60's, 70's or 80's and don't have that much energy or patience.  We need to promote the growth of the hobby through it's attributes and not complain about every little inconvenience or lack of detail.

GVDobler posted:

@Alfred

Yikes!  Doesn't change any of the facts of the OP. The peak was the 1960 era and that the Boomers kids will sell them off for pennies on the dollar. You would do better by your heirs to sell them and invest in real estate that will increase in value.

Basically this is it. One generation does always have the interests of the previous one. Going back to the classic car example many are bemoaning the fact that younger people aren't interested in Chevelles, GTOs, Torinos, Cougars, 442s, etc. Besides the cost another big factor is that these are not cars generation X and Y grew up with. Generation X and Y are interested in cars, but they want a Grand National, Fox-body Mustang, or Integra instead, because they grew up with them.

Taking this to trains kids today would be more interested in seeing models of an Amtrak train or SD70Ms pulling a string of container cars, as they can relate to that. It's hard for a kid to relate to postwar trains, or modern models of a J class or F units, which the hobby is full of.

I'm a generation Y who likes postwar stuff, which means they'll be plenty of cheap, excellent condition postwar trains for me in the future...

OGR PUBLISHER posted:

I wanted to chime in to give you all a perspective of what is happening in terms of growth/interest as we see it with regards to this forum.  We use to get around 5 new membership applications per day but over this past year or so the number has been steadily increasing.  The average is now around 15 per day...!  And...the age range is showing an increasing number of younger applicants....so I think the hobby still has a long way to go before the end...

I would venture to say a big part of increased membership is due to the need for technical help. I've noticed in the last year or so a sharp rise in trouble shooting threads asking for help on newer trains and they're operating systems such as WiFi and tablets.

There use to be a lot of lurkers on this forum but most have had to come out of hiding and start a thread because they can't get that new train set up to run like it was suppose to.

Sometimes I think this hobby needs more testosterone.  All the shopping, complaining, and cost justification remind me of my wife telling me what a deal she got on crap she didn’t need

Booth babes at York!

more people my age (i'm 22)

For Lego to team up with Lionel (or Lego to do this alone) to create a 3 rail/O gauge motorized platform (not for use with their plastic 2 rail track).
This platform could be used to create various engines on the platform.
Individual modules sold could connect/snap in place. These modules could produce lights, sound, smoke, all controlled by a blue tooth AP which is built in the motorized platform.
Engines would have the standard type knuckle couplers that Lionel has and be able to lash up up any car new or old.
Additional passenger/freight cars platforms could be made with various shells that need to be assembled, plus additional lights and sound modules.

Imagine a kid that has a bunch of extra Lego's to add on to a platform to create his own train. This could be run on his Fathers, Grand Fathers, Uncle, his own or any other family member train layout.

Lego could also place Ideas (on a special ego site) on how to build a train from the available Legos that Leogo kids may have.

Just a thought?

chinatrain99 posted:

Sometimes I think this hobby needs more testosterone.  All the shopping, complaining, and cost justification remind me of my wife telling me what a deal she got on crap she didn’t need

As opposed to the crap you don't need?

RonH posted:

For Lego to team up with Lionel (or Lego to do this alone) to create a 3 rail/O gauge motorized platform (not for use with their plastic 2 rail track).
This platform could be used to create various engines on the platform.
Individual modules sold could connect/snap in place. These modules could produce lights, sound, smoke, all controlled by a blue tooth AP which is built in the motorized platform.
Engines would have the standard type knuckle couplers that Lionel has and be able to lash up up any car new or old.
Additional passenger/freight cars platforms could be made with various shells that need to be assembled, plus additional lights and sound modules.

Imagine a kid that has a bunch of extra Lego's to add on to a platform to create his own train. This could be run on his Fathers, Grand Fathers, Uncle, his own or any other family member train layout.

Lego could also place Ideas (on a special ego site) on how to build a train from the available Legos that Leogo kids may have.

Just a thought?

Lego has their own line of trains.

C W Burfle posted:

RonH posted:

For Lego to team up with Lionel (or Lego to do this alone) to create a 3 rail/O gauge motorized platform (not for use with their plastic 2 rail track).
This platform could be used to create various engines on the platform.
Individual modules sold could connect/snap in place. These modules could produce lights, sound, smoke, all controlled by a blue tooth AP which is built in the motorized platform.
Engines would have the standard type knuckle couplers that Lionel has and be able to lash up up any car new or old.
Additional passenger/freight cars platforms could be made with various shells that need to be assembled, plus additional lights and sound modules.

Imagine a kid that has a bunch of extra Lego's to add on to a platform to create his own train. This could be run on his Fathers, Grand Fathers, Uncle, his own or any other family member train layout.

Lego could also place Ideas (on a special ego site) on how to build a train from the available Legos that Leogo kids may have.

Just a thought?

Lego has their own line of trains.

That I know and it is a plastic track, just trying to explain how a new line could be expanded to generate younger interest in the hobby

The hobby needs more people to read manuals on equipment.    These seem to be the big time complainers when something does not operate as they think it should.  .  READ THE BOOK.

...More people who do repairs, especially at the manufacturers' level.