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MELGAR posted:

Among the various proposed technical items in this thread I'm surprised that no one has suggested battery-powered locomotives. Would eliminate track wiring and issues that people seem to have with Legacy/DCS.

MELGAR

I know...it seems like the sleeping giant.

All the tech is there and ready.

But I wonder if there is a "best of both worlds" path forward for some?

Could you re-purpose the center rail for some other function or make current function more reliable?

My other thought is - need a really good universal design - we don't need a battery in every loco - just the ones we are running at the moment.

Roving Sign posted:
MELGAR posted:

Among the various proposed technical items in this thread I'm surprised that no one has suggested battery-powered locomotives. Would eliminate track wiring and issues that people seem to have with Legacy/DCS.

MELGAR

My other thought is - need a really good universal design - we don't need a battery in every loco - just the ones we are running at the moment.

Maybe a caboose or boxcar could hold the battery...if yes, I claim all patent rights on that. 

Tom 

MNCW posted:
Roving Sign posted:
MELGAR posted:

Among the various proposed technical items in this thread I'm surprised that no one has suggested battery-powered locomotives. Would eliminate track wiring and issues that people seem to have with Legacy/DCS.

MELGAR

My other thought is - need a really good universal design - we don't need a battery in every loco - just the ones we are running at the moment.

Maybe a caboose or boxcar could hold the battery...if yes, I claim all patent rights on that. 

Tom 

I'm thinking if this were to be applied to O scale you could make air hoses/480v HEP cables functional by using thin wire from a specific car with the battery. Make the battery strong enough to handle lights on passenger trains for the 480v HEP in addition to being able to power the locomotive(s). Quick-disconnects wouldn't be too difficult to design. 

Last edited by GenesisFan99
GenesisFan99 posted:
MNCW posted:
Roving Sign posted:
MELGAR posted:

Among the various proposed technical items in this thread I'm surprised that no one has suggested battery-powered locomotives. Would eliminate track wiring and issues that people seem to have with Legacy/DCS.

MELGAR

My other thought is - need a really good universal design - we don't need a battery in every loco - just the ones we are running at the moment.

Maybe a caboose or boxcar could hold the battery...if yes, I claim all patent rights on that. 

Tom 

I'm thinking if this were to be applied to O scale you could make air hoses/480v HEP cables functional by using thin wire from a specific car with the battery. Make the battery strong enough to handle lights on passenger trains for the 480v HEP in addition to being able to power the locomotive(s). Quick-disconnects wouldn't be too difficult to design. 

i like this idea

C W Burfle posted:

Honestly, I think all this back and forth about baby boomers and Lionel's peak years is a bit much.

Below is a quote from Wikipedia, which seems to be in line with everything I've read about the history of the Lionel Corp:

By 1953 Lionel profits reached its highest peak in the postwar era at over $32 million; but as the 1950s progressed, Lionel sales began to decline in the growing prevalence of space and military toys and slot car racing sets — all coinciding with the decline in rail travel and the launching of Sputnik, which began the space-race between the United States and Soviet Union, along with the associated military build-up as the Cold War progressed after World War II. The remaining interest in toy and model trains that existed was geared towards HO scale, which gradually overtook O gauge in popularity due to its more realistic detailing and smaller size that enabled the enthusiast to do more modelling within the same amount of space. Lionel attempted to keep the pace with the changing trends by offering space and military-themed train sets and coming out with their own HO line of trains. Unfortunately, they were never able to reclaim the market share they once held in the toy industry and by 1958 reported a net loss of $469,057. Company founder Joshua Cowen officially retired that same year. On September 8, 1965, Joshua Cowen died at the age of 88 in Palm Beach, Florida

Let's not get locked into Lionel history and overlook the market's answer over time to "what the hobby needs".  More (predominantly smaller) scales!  HO surpassing O in popularity was just the beginning.

What, me worry? 

The hobby really doesn't need much in terms of equipment in my mind.  What it needs more of is model railroaders who are generally positive, willing to share their hobby with the younger generation by running trains for the public, less complaining about what hasn't been made yet, and simply presenting a friendly face to anyone who is even minimally willing to listen to what an amazing hobby this is and the skills that come out it.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Use third rail to keep batteryry charged.

Work with Tesla on this!

I thought that batteries were DC, if I remember my high school teachings correctly. So,,,,,,,just how would a DC battery be "charged" from the AC 3rd rail??????

When going to battery power/control there is absolutely NO NEED for a "third rail", nor ANY power to ANY of the rails! The batteries would simply be recharged by an external plug-in charger.

   Hot Water,  Charging tracks are already in use in garden railroading.

  Bust open your cordless drills battery charger and while the transformer, if there, might eat some room, but the regulator board will likely be pretty small. A electronic  charger only slightly larger board/no transformer.  It's not hard to rectify and regulate ac for a charger board. We do similar for command control daily.  And you can run dc on 3 rail as well, its just not common outside of DCS.

  So basically, charging remains the same, it just has a new place to do it.  Just put one loco on a siding to charge and run another on the dead rails.  Almost  prototypical; a refueling takes a bit no?

Two rail, or three rail for that charging track being used isn't important really.

  A center pickups can drop too low, and two rail charging track is more normally used today than the tinplate track anyhow. But I've seen at least one post on garden oriented site with charge to a center rail and an isolated outside rail both.

    I don't think batteries are the wave of the future, but if it's appealing to you, why not.     A cord to the track will be the most efficient way to get power to a motor for a loooooong time. I've hated batteries running dry my whole life, my trains never had that issue. Likely one of the reasons I never stopped playing with them; they were the one toy that didn't need batteries, so weren't destroyed by leaky ones either

MNCW posted:
Roving Sign posted:
MELGAR posted:

Among the various proposed technical items in this thread I'm surprised that no one has suggested battery-powered locomotives. Would eliminate track wiring and issues that people seem to have with Legacy/DCS.

MELGAR

My other thought is - need a really good universal design - we don't need a battery in every loco - just the ones we are running at the moment.

Maybe a caboose or boxcar could hold the battery...if yes, I claim all patent rights on that. 

Tom 

That makes me smile. Electrocouplers would make for a surprising outcome. 

How can young people be interested in a hobby that is based on trains no one has seen?    When was the last time you saw a steam locomotive?    How many young people have seen any train?    When we baby boomers had toy trains we also rode in and saw real trains.    Young ones have little experience if any with trains.    In the late fifties and early sixties many saw toy trains die off because of airplanes.    People flew in planes not on a train.    In the early eighties toy trains began to be popular because baby boomers were buying them.    Today, the vast majority of model railroaders are old ones.   Yes, there are some young ones but not enough to sustain the inventory being produced by the major companies today.   Don’t forget that with hobby stores closing and access to trains is only possible on the internet how are young ones going to see them.    Train shows have died off too.   With overpriced trains and cranky sellers sitting at tables yelling at kids for getting too close to his table what do you expect?     Toy trains are still very appealing to kids but will not be without plenty of exposure.    

Exposure is what is missing and unless it changes it will die off with us baby boomers.

I didn't say all shows but there are quite a few.   

Not picking on you.
It's a common claim around here.
I don't think I can say I've never heard of a table holder scolding a kid, but it is rare around here.

On the other hand, poorly behaved children and adults are common. If you have space at a public show, your stuff is going to get handled.

Vinny26 posted:

How can young people be interested in a hobby that is based on trains no one has seen?    When was the last time you saw a steam locomotive?    How many young people have seen any train?    When we baby boomers had toy trains we also rode in and saw real trains.    Young ones have little experience if any with trains.    In the late fifties and early sixties many saw toy trains die off because of airplanes.    People flew in planes not on a train.    In the early eighties toy trains began to be popular because baby boomers were buying them.    Today, the vast majority of model railroaders are old ones.   Yes, there are some young ones but not enough to sustain the inventory being produced by the major companies today.   Don’t forget that with hobby stores closing and access to trains is only possible on the internet how are young ones going to see them.    Train shows have died off too.   With overpriced trains and cranky sellers sitting at tables yelling at kids for getting too close to his table what do you expect?     Toy trains are still very appealing to kids but will not be without plenty of exposure.    

Exposure is what is missing and unless it changes it will die off with us baby boomers.

I agree:

MTH, Lionel, time to issue sets that are urban commuter lines: BART, MAX, those cool local trains that get us to work and many kids to school.  More subway lines-- that's a good start with the sets you have, but more, please :-)

The starter sets need to be bullet proof.  However, given the nature of the model trains, I suspect that some of the issues are with the operators.  If someone has a problem today, especially if they bought it mail order, most likely they would do a google search like "My new Lionel Train doesn't work"  or something like that.  There are many videos, etc.  However, the ones by Lionel still show it being powered by a CW.  So that needs to be cleaned up and a new video with Lionelchief equipment.

On marketing the train over the Christmas season,  while having an operating layout would be nice,  I think the labor costs would make it impossible in today's retail environment.  Instead, if a big retailer like Target were to focus on a train display, perhaps have a video monitor show trains running to help demonstrate the product.  I could even see a Plexiglas box that demonstrated an operating accessory or two with the push of a button, similar to the Lego boxes.  How cool would it be if the trains were displayed near the video department and have the demo video on all of the big screens now and then over the holidays.

Lastly, some of the big regional malls may have enough foot traffic to warrant some type of display layout and a Lionel Pop up store of some type.   But again the labor costs would be a key consideration, not to mention finding the people to man the booths over the long holiday hours.   

There has been some ham radio exposure via the maker movement.  Maybe this is another route?

Also, have all of the model companies tried to put ads in REAL train magazines like TRAINS.  Or at least WORLD'S GREATEST HOBBY.  I think it and TRAINS are connected in somw way?  Or ads on Amtrak's Arrow computer system or on board publication?  Or ads and or sponsoring train museums?  Think outside the RPO, err, box!

pdxtrains posted:
Vinny26 posted:

How can young people be interested in a hobby that is based on trains no one has seen?    When was the last time you saw a steam locomotive?    How many young people have seen any train?    When we baby boomers had toy trains we also rode in and saw real trains.    Young ones have little experience if any with trains.    In the late fifties and early sixties many saw toy trains die off because of airplanes.    People flew in planes not on a train.    In the early eighties toy trains began to be popular because baby boomers were buying them.    Today, the vast majority of model railroaders are old ones.   Yes, there are some young ones but not enough to sustain the inventory being produced by the major companies today.   Don’t forget that with hobby stores closing and access to trains is only possible on the internet how are young ones going to see them.    Train shows have died off too.   With overpriced trains and cranky sellers sitting at tables yelling at kids for getting too close to his table what do you expect?     Toy trains are still very appealing to kids but will not be without plenty of exposure.    

Exposure is what is missing and unless it changes it will die off with us baby boomers.

I agree:

MTH, Lionel, time to issue sets that are urban commuter lines: BART, MAX, those cool local trains that get us to work and many kids to school.  More subway lines-- that's a good start with the sets you have, but more, please :-)

I don't think the hobby is dying off anytime soon. I'm 16 and have seen a fair amount of trains in preservation. I also work for a hobby shop. It is true that hobby shops are closing, the shop I work for only has one real competitor in the entire county. I have helped a good amount of families in the short amount of time I've been working in the shop, and most of the time the kids were younger. 

Perhaps the most important thing is this hobby is not for everyone. Exposure exists in a number of ways, it's just a matter of whether or not the love for the hobby takes root. 

The point is, I see no cause for concern and I can almost guarantee once all of the Baby Boomers are gone that their spots will be filled.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

 

Also, have all of the model companies tried to put ads in REAL train magazines like TRAINS.

People who read the likes of Trains, PTJ, Railfan & Railroad, etc. magazines may be interested in prototype railroading, but not have any interest in model railroading.  Modelers who read these magazines already know about the model companies.  The person who has no interest in trains won't be buying these magazines.

Rusty

 

KUDOS TO Lionel , MTH , and everyone else affiliated with this hobby are planting the seeds for future generation's with their current and future development of product.  

We now have bluetooth and WiFi available for our portable devices.  Starter sets are affordable, fun and loaded with value.  Exciting accessories, cars and locomotives.  And it's fun to play with.

There are also train clubs, train shows , magazines, even the movies still feature trains, its a important element embedded in the fabric of our society.  As long as there are trains there will be  train hobbist, and O gauge gets better and better. 

Embrace the future.

The magic can still be there.  Expose a kid to trains!!!  Get them to "help" you build a mountain or a structure.  Work with them.  But never criticize the result.  And- I like the idea of buying a starter set for a young family- every Christmas.

 

I gave a starter set to each of my son's families over the past two years.  I give a Christmas Car to each grandchild every year, with a note on the bottom- "From Grandpa- 2017" with a note.  These will be precious to them when THEY have kids.

Last edited by Mike Wyatt

I keep hearing the arguments about kids not being exposed to trains, they never saw a steam engine, etc, but the reality is that any of us let's say in our 50's or younger, never saw trains back in the 'good old days', never saw steam engines in active use, never saw the rail passenger service before Amtrak. Kids of course see trains on tv shows and movies and even around them, so how they are 'not exposed to trains' is a bit misleading, they never saw trains pulled by a steam engine, but they have seen trains, the irony is the railroads are probably in better shape today than they were when I was growing up, when the passenger then the freight railroads ended up going into government receivership. A lot of us in the hobby now my age or younger still love steam engines, for example, when all we ever saw growing up were diesels (I think kids of this generation were influenced by Thomas and Friends, where Diesels were considered devious *lol*) and I think it is because when exposed to them, there is a fascination. People don't necessarily only get drawn to things they know intimately in their own lives...

I think the hobby goes through ebb and flow, and I think that is true of any hobby. The HO and N world seem to be doing okay, despite claims they were dying even when I was growing up, and again, if young people are not exposed to trains, why are the N and HO markets doing pretty well? Some of it is us older folks, but there are also a lot of younger folks in those scales, and new ones coming into it, so again the argument kids don't know trains so won't do this doesn't fly. I also will add that hobbies are something that requires leisure time, and it happens that older people, especially ones who have retired, have the time. Many of us who are in the hobby seem always to be in the prep or planning stages because we don't have the time, people are working long hours, commuting, if they have kids they have endless things to do with them, and despite the lure of the basement,and despite popular conceptions, they also have spouses who would prefer to have some time with them, too. So hobbies in many cases always have been skewed towards older folks, not to mention that generally older people may have more disposable income (not all do, obviously, and retired people on fixed incomes obviously have the time and maybe not all the money they could wish for for it). People have been talking about the death of classical music probably since it came about, but it seems like audiences for this form always have been older *shrug*.

To quote Mark Twain, I think the reports of the death of the hobby are exaggerated, I think it is more like the late Douglas Adams, in his book on vanishing wildlife, making the observation about the Kimodo Dragon, said it seems like despite the popular idea it was vanishing, always seemed to have small numbers, has small numbers, and seems like in the future they will too....

I think of course there are things that can be done to promote the hobby, specifically our little segment of it. I tend to agree with others, that our hobby is not always so friendly to younger people, some of the people writing on here for example make it seem like every kid is this raging out of control monster who have no respect or behave badly, and quite honestly I have seen what others have written, where vendors and such automatically give the stink eye to kids or young adults. There are a lot of clubs that won't even think of having kids as members and even if a parent is a member aren't happy, they are the stereotype of a bunch of grouchy old guys playing with their trains (and this is not limited to the O gauge world, talking in general), and if they remember they were once kids think they of course were angels.......the train companies could do some things in this area, sponsor events for kids perhaps, find ways to get themselves in the eye of kids, but to be honest most of their marketing and such seems to be aimed at people already in the hobby (understandable, but still). 

I think having a range of products make sense, Lionel did that in the "Golden Age", that also economically allow a wider range of people to partake, I really like the Lionchief series because the engines are relatively affordable, allow command control that is pretty nifty and allow people who can't afford a 600 buck legacy diesel or a 1k legacy steam engine have something. 

One of the things I thought about that I wish I would see (but likely would not) is to have the players in the 3 rail market, work together to figure out these issues, how to promote the hobby, see it as an industry. In the scale world through NMRA standards, for example, scale manufacturers have a common control system and that only has helped it catch on (DCC), and they have industry groups that promote the hobby. I realize that scale modelling is a bit different, but for example with DCC someone doesn't have to buy different systems to control different engines, the people who produce the DCC decoders and control systems compete on features and price, having better sound libraries, etc. If manufacturers had made their stuff incompatible, command control would be a tiny fraction of the size it is in the scale world, people would have been locked into either hacking engines to work with this unit or that (kind of like someone replacing TMCC and Legacy guts with PS 2 or 3 setup. It sounds great, the idea you can lock in an audience to your system and be forced to buy the controlling system to go along with it, more $$$, but it also limits the size of the hobby as well, it is a barrier and whatever individual gain they get out of proprietary systems, they probably lose people not wanting to have to buy multiple control systems. That is just one example, but my point is that instead of fighting over the carcass to pull out whatever they can (at the expense of the 'other guy'), they could be doing things to broaden the hobby so instead of fighting over a carcass, they are looking at a herd that can feed them (been watching too many Nat Geo programs I think)......the key here is growing the hobby, not pulling out from whatever is out there today. Not holding my breath on this, the model that the various companies (mostly Lionel and MTH) have seems to be not looking at the overall hobby and gaining more revenue from an expanding market, but rather chasing static (or shrinking dollars) in a zero sum game.

One thing I think would be huge would be to have "train guys" running the companies, people who are generally interested and excited with O gauge 3 rail, rather than being pure business people. Enthusiastic people like that have a tendency to want to promote the hobby because they love it.....my model was Richard Kuhn, who was an enthusiast who bought Lionel from what I understand because he loved the trains, and had the enthusiasm for example (if I got my story right), to see through TMCC happening (tale I heard was Neil Young proposed it and he listened, or some variation thereof). Compare what happened with car makers when the beancounters run the show or when you have car guys who love cars running them, and you get the idea. It isn't that these aren't businesses, they are of course, but businesses run by marketing people and finance people generally don't necessarily do the best things for the product, they generally tend to be people like the clowns who ran GM into the ground, then the people who came up with new, exciting things for people to drive. I have met some of the 'car guy' types, and even when in vicious competition with the other makers, they also respected what other companies were doing, and appreciated what that did for the car market, it wasn't just about numbers (I met Bob Lutz many years ago through a friend,  and when you talked about cars with him you couldn't miss how much he loved them, or how much teasing he gave me over being an Alfa person...... I think we could use people like that, or more of them, I think that would go a long way, too. 

Personally, I don't think the hobby is going to die, it survived the almost death of Lionel, it survived the worst (and best) of MPC, it survived the fighting between MTH and Lionel that nearly took one or both of them down, it will survive the dying off of the baby boom generation (many of whom, quite honestly, may not be buying all that much new anyway, since many of them either are collecting old stuff or running postwar and the like), something has kept it going this long, heck the depression couldn't even kill it.

 

 

 

Last edited by bigkid
Vinny26 posted:

How can young people be interested in a hobby that is based on trains no one has seen?    When was the last time you saw a steam locomotive?    How many young people have seen any train?    When we baby boomers had toy trains we also rode in and saw real trains.    Young ones have little experience if any with trains.    In the late fifties and early sixties many saw toy trains die off because of airplanes.    People flew in planes not on a train.    In the early eighties toy trains began to be popular because baby boomers were buying them.    Today, the vast majority of model railroaders are old ones.   Yes, there are some young ones but not enough to sustain the inventory being produced by the major companies today.   Don’t forget that with hobby stores closing and access to trains is only possible on the internet how are young ones going to see them.    Train shows have died off too.   With overpriced trains and cranky sellers sitting at tables yelling at kids for getting too close to his table what do you expect?     Toy trains are still very appealing to kids but will not be without plenty of exposure.    

Exposure is what is missing and unless it changes it will die off with us baby boomers.

Amtrak ridership is at an all time high, Brightline just started service and public transit ridership is higher than it has been in decades.  I think focusing on making trains that people use currently and partnering up with Amtrak to maybe do a train awareness campaign might help.  It is kind of crazy that no ones has done a Siemens Charger or Sprinter Locomotive in O-gauge.  Many people ride on trains pulled by Sprinter locomotives on the North East Corridor and Charger will be used on the Pacific Surfliner and various other state-funded trains that are also really busy.  I think if MTH or Lionel made a starter set with one of those locomotives and some Amfleet coaches it would do well. 

FECguy posted:
Vinny26 posted:

How can young people be interested in a hobby that is based on trains no one has seen?    When was the last time you saw a steam locomotive?    How many young people have seen any train?    When we baby boomers had toy trains we also rode in and saw real trains.    Young ones have little experience if any with trains.    In the late fifties and early sixties many saw toy trains die off because of airplanes.    People flew in planes not on a train.    In the early eighties toy trains began to be popular because baby boomers were buying them.    Today, the vast majority of model railroaders are old ones.   Yes, there are some young ones but not enough to sustain the inventory being produced by the major companies today.   Don’t forget that with hobby stores closing and access to trains is only possible on the internet how are young ones going to see them.    Train shows have died off too.   With overpriced trains and cranky sellers sitting at tables yelling at kids for getting too close to his table what do you expect?     Toy trains are still very appealing to kids but will not be without plenty of exposure.    

Exposure is what is missing and unless it changes it will die off with us baby boomers.

Amtrak ridership is at an all time high, Brightline just started service and public transit ridership is higher than it has been in decades.  I think focusing on making trains that people use currently and partnering up with Amtrak to maybe do a train awareness campaign might help.  It is kind of crazy that no ones has done a Siemens Charger or Sprinter Locomotive in O-gauge.  Many people ride on trains pulled by Sprinter locomotives on the North East Corridor and Charger will be used on the Pacific Surfliner and various other state-funded trains that are also really busy.  I think if MTH or Lionel made a starter set with one of those locomotives and some Amfleet coaches it would do well. 

I disagree about focusing on a certain era. What we really want is variety. Yes, it would be great to have models of new trains, but a focus on them isn't good for the market. Not everyone likes or models Amtrak (or anything current for that matter). This ties into an earlier comment of mine where I said the impossible needs to be done, which is to please everyone. A bigger variety overall is the way to do this. 

When it comes to the Charger and ACS-64, you have to consider how blueprints will be obtained, tooling costs, taking the time to get accurate sounds, licensing, and most importantly who would produce them. Now just my personal opinion-I find the Chargers to be rather ugly and no amount of "It's modern European-like styling" can convince me otherwise. It also might be important to note that the Chargers are really quiet (even in notch 8 surprisingly), so in addition to having to take the time to get accurate sounds, something would have to be worked out in that regard. I'm sure I'm not the only person who finds the Charger ugly. I dread the day Chargers replace F59PHIs and P32-8BWHs on the Pacific Surfliner. The point I'm trying to make is the Charger may not sell well. As for the ACS-64, that will likely sell a whole lot better and to my knowledge has more paint schemes/variations in paint schemes so far than the Charger. This makes it more enticing to produce when it comes to tooling costs. I certainly would consider purchasing one. The issue is Viewliners won't ever be made, so you're limited to Northeast Regional service and anything else that doesn't require Viewliners in any form, Heritage Diners, and 1700 series baggage cars (converted coaches with roll-up door). While it is true that GGD has considered Viewliners, they have to be brass, thus making them very expensive, which severely impacts interest and production. I do realize that you mentioned starter sets, but in my experience selling starter sets, a big part of a starter set is aesthetics and durability. The particular issue with aesthetics is as I mentioned the Charger isn't pretty. The particular issue with durability is the ACS-64's pantographs. If not modified somehow, they could break off. Beginners in the hobby also care about ease of use. They don't want anything that seems too complicated. Perhaps these would be a bit better as scale models? If not I'm sure us scale guys wouldn't appreciate being left in the dust for no apparent reason.

You mentioned Brightline is now in service. Since when? I guess a trip to Florida is worth it after all.

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