What happened to scale flanged wheels?

Not enough buyers while producing limited product numbers on each item is my guess.

Proto 3/2 steam was a boondoggle for everyone.  The wheels were permanently affixed.  3R flanges don't run through 2R switch frogs, and vice-versa.  If MTH would have retooled their steam loco chassis with a separate gearbox and "bottom plate" to retain the axles, that would have made these locos truly convertible (and easier to modify!)  Instead what they did just created a hard-to-sell inventory item.  As a 3-railer, the 3/2 "feature" messed with my ground pickup until I took the locos apart and wired the left and right sides together permanently.

Regarding the diesels: some of those truck designs did permit wholesale exchange of wheels and axles.  Even so, most of the 2-railers I spoke to preferred a larger, centrally-mounted motor driving the wheels through gear towers and shafts.  2-rail O scalers don't need the ability to negotiate very sharp curves that led to truck-mounted motors in the first place.  Mounting the motor vertically on the truck assembly limits the size (and torque) of the motor, the size of the flywheel, the minimum height of the diesel's hood, and potentially, the opportunity for cab detailing.

I'm a big fan of the 3/2 diesels and would have bought some of the AC4400CWs that are coming out soon if they had been offered in the scale wheels version. They seem to have stepped away from this currently, but I hope that they reconsider, especially for the items that they already have the scale tooling.

I have a feeling they're leaving it for Atlas to handle from now on.

@Engineer-Joe posted:

I have a feeling they're leaving it for Atlas to handle from now on.

I'm inclined to agree. So far, most of the premier offerings from Atlas have been available with scale wheels. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like the locomotives MTH still offers are available that way now. Too bad.

@jonnyspeed I saw you posted a while back about a set of GGD Erie  heavyweight cars. I tried emailing you but the email in your profile bounced. If they are still available would you please contact me? Thanks! Marc S.

@jonnyspeed posted:

MTH, Why have you stopped offering Scale Wheel versions of ANY engine, even if it was done in the past?

I preordered the CNJ 3/2 Train Master when MTH offered it many years ago, but it got canceled for lack of orders.  I was disappointed as definitely one of the CNJ diesel locomotives I would like to add to my collection.

With MTH's current business model, it might be possible to get a run of 3/2 diesels done if someone or a group of modelers were agreeable to paying the entire cost of the minimum run.  However, I have no insider knowledge on that, do not know the current MOQ for MTH, and don't have the contacts I used to with the company.  The other big challenge is getting enough people to agree on what model to run.  That is often the challenge for the manufacturer I am affiliated with.

@GG1 4877 posted:

With MTH's current business model, it might be possible to get a run of 3/2 diesels done if someone or a group of modelers were agreeable to paying the entire cost of the minimum run.  However, I have no insider knowledge on that, do not know the current MOQ for MTH, and don't have the contacts I used to with the company.  The other big challenge is getting enough people to agree on what model to run.  That is often the challenge for the manufacturer I am affiliated with.

I had a lengthy conversation with Rich Foster of MTH at the ”Big E” Amherst, MA train show in January about the possibility of bringing back “22-” series (2-rail, fixed-pilot, 3/2 convertible) versions of the Premier diesels they still have the tooling for.

He was certainly not opposed to the idea, but as Jonathan mentioned above, it would come down to getting a dealer (or dealers), or a club, to “sponsor” a run.

I was surprised when he told me how low the total quantity needed to be.  He said about 50-75 total units (that’s total, not per road name!) would be enough to make it a go…as long as there was enough support up front.

So as an example, if they did a run of Premier 3-rail F3’s in say 5 road names, about 10-15 of the 2-rail, fixed-pilot units of each road name would be enough to make it a go.

I realize 2-rail with fixed pilots is a niche within a niche, but those sound like reasonable minimum quantities to me!  It would just require up-front commitment and support.

He even said he would consider offering a 3-rail diesel with fixed pilots (for those of us who like fixed pilots and full-length handrails, but still run on 3-rail track) and give it a new series prefix, such as “21-“ or “23-“…and minimum quantities would still only be in the 50-75 range!  It would still be 3/2 convertible for those 2-railers out there.

@CNJ #1601 posted:

He even said he would consider offering a 3-rail diesel with fixed pilots (for those of us who like fixed pilots and full-length handrails, but still run on 3-rail track) and give it a new series prefix, such as “21-“…and minimum quantities would still only be in the 50-75 range!  It would still be 3/2 convertible for those 2-railers out there.

These are what I'd be in for. I'm constantly waiting for 22- items on the secondary market.

This would Be Great to see these models offered again.
I’ve managed to obtain 2 models and continue to look for others but they seem to be tightly held and scarce as hens teeth !!!!!!!!  As far as I’m concerned, For MTH, they were the Best diesel models they offered. I had the scale wheels swapped out to better transit turnouts. All curves are O72 and 096.

Here are my two 3 rail gems.
MP / left dummy, right closed pilot with kadee.  See the difference in railings     
SP

Cheers 😉

Anyone else out there beside me that can show us their examples of these well done MTH models ???    

I also have several 3rail Atlas F units that I’ve converted to fixed pilots. They require larger curve radius but the appearance with this upgrade is just So Nice !!!!  

If MTH can do F7 in Southern Pacific black widow, I will take a A&B in 2 rail.

@TrainBub posted:

Anyone else out there beside me that can show us their examples of these well done MTH models ???  

Here are a few of mine...

Comparison between 2-rail GP40 with fixed pilot, full-length handrails and ProtoCraft scale front coupler and "stock" 3-rail GP38-2.  You tell me which one looks better!!

Here's another 2-rail GP40 (also with ProtoCraft front coupler)...

And an F3 (also with ProtoCraft front coupler)...

As a follow on, I just picked up a pair of MTH FM Trainmasters in CNW from a special run. I have scale wheels for them, but I'm going to need to rework the pilots. I believe the pilots are already set up for Kadees. I'll know when I start digging into them.

Well Atlas did a good job on the Amtrak P-42 with fixed pilots.

Clem

@TrainBub posted:

Anyone else out there beside me that can show us their examples of these well done MTH models ???

Those MP U-Boats of yours look really good TrainBub.

Here's a few MTH 2R scale models I've had over the years. I especially liked the CN/IC Dash 8.

John

Thanks for the nice posts CNJ#1601 and jgtrh62 !!! It’s Really Great to see other pix of MTH scale wheel-fixed pilot models.
Let’s hope we get some more participants in this thread.
Cheers 😉

@CNJ #1601 posted:

I had a lengthy conversation with Rich Foster of MTH at the ”Big E” Amherst, MA train show in January about the possibility of bringing back “22-” series (2-rail, fixed-pilot, 3/2 convertible) versions of the Premier diesels they still have the tooling for.

He was certainly not opposed to the idea, but as Jonathan mentioned above, it would come down to getting a dealer (or dealers), or a club, to “sponsor” a run.

I was surprised when he told me how low the total quantity needed to be.  He said about 50-75 total units (that’s total, not per road name!) would be enough to make it a go…as long as there was enough support up front.

So as an example, if they did a run of Premier 3-rail F3’s in say 5 road names, about 10-15 of the 2-rail, fixed-pilot units of each road name would be enough to make it a go.

I realize 2-rail with fixed pilots is a niche within a niche, but those sound like reasonable minimum quantities to me!  It would just require up-front commitment and support.

He even said he would consider offering a 3-rail diesel with fixed pilots (for those of us who like fixed pilots and full-length handrails, but still run on 3-rail track) and give it a new series prefix, such as “21-“ or “23-“…and minimum quantities would still only be in the 50-75 range!  It would still be 3/2 convertible for those 2-railers out there.

Boy. This is Real News !!!!! We need to try to get this news out there !!! Some shops seem to be quite successful with special runs and I would think this kind of offering would also work. 🤔🤔🤔 Perhaps 2 shops could split a minimum order to manage the required minimum order - each catering to their localized markets. 😜🙃  Just wondering out loud ……..
Cheers 😉

@CNJ #1601 posted:

He even said he would consider offering a 3-rail diesel with fixed pilots (for those of us who like fixed pilots and full-length handrails, but still run on 3-rail track) and give it a new series prefix, such as “21-“ or “23-“…and minimum quantities would still only be in the 50-75 range!  It would still be 3/2 convertible for those 2-railers out there.

Honestly, this is the way.

I suspect most of these 22- locos end up as 3RS models anyways, just make it that way and sell the 2 rail wheels. I wont buy the locos with the swinging pilots anymore. The fixed pilot models need to come back, in one form or another. Obviously there is a market for them.

@Boilermaker1 posted:

Honestly, this is the way.

I suspect most of these 22- locos end up as 3RS models anyways, just make it that way and sell the 2 rail wheels. I wont buy the locos with the swinging pilots anymore. The fixed pilot models need to come back, in one form or another. Obviously there is a market for them.

Absolutely agree !!!!!!!!!!!!  
I traded the scale wheels for the flanged wheels.  
At the Very Least, it would be nice to again see those models reissued that we’re previously released with 3/2, scale wheels, fixed pilot.

I would love to see MTH produce more fixed pilot engines. One engine style missing from MTH's past fixed pilot offerings is the SD60M.  There are plenty of West, Mid-West and Eastern road name options (BN, Conrail, CSX, Soo, UP, NS, Wisconsin Southern, Buffalo & Pittsburg).  I would love to have three of these road names for myself (BN, Conrail, CSX).

Maybe Beth Marshall might be interested.  She does some MTH special runs.  I'll have to ask.  Id be interested in a couple of AC4400s with fixed pilots.  

With the doom and gloom surrounding Tier 4 diesels, especially the Sd70ace-t4 AC4400s are showing up all over the place these days.

I asked Beth and she said everyone wants something different so there is not enough of one thing to make it happen.  I want AC4400s and told her so.  So if anyone else is interested in AC4400s  and only AC4400s you might want to let her know.  Otherwise she is correct.

I would take an AC4400cw SP bloody nose. The CP Rail would be another choice for me. After that, the NS "mane" ( i call them).

Hmmm, lots of choices here.

I would like to see MTH do an Alco FA2 3 rail with fixed pilot.

@CNJ #1601 posted:

I had a lengthy conversation with Rich Foster of MTH at the ”Big E” Amherst, MA train show in January about the possibility of bringing back “22-” series (2-rail, fixed-pilot, 3/2 convertible) versions of the Premier diesels they still have the tooling for.

He was certainly not opposed to the idea, but as Jonathan mentioned above, it would come down to getting a dealer (or dealers), or a club, to “sponsor” a run.

I was surprised when he told me how low the total quantity needed to be.  He said about 50-75 total units (that’s total, not per road name!) would be enough to make it a go…as long as there was enough support up front.

So as an example, if they did a run of Premier 3-rail F3’s in say 5 road names, about 10-15 of the 2-rail, fixed-pilot units of each road name would be enough to make it a go.

I realize 2-rail with fixed pilots is a niche within a niche, but those sound like reasonable minimum quantities to me!  It would just require up-front commitment and support.

He even said he would consider offering a 3-rail diesel with fixed pilots (for those of us who like fixed pilots and full-length handrails, but still run on 3-rail track) and give it a new series prefix, such as “21-“ or “23-“…and minimum quantities would still only be in the 50-75 range!  It would still be 3/2 convertible for those 2-railers out there.

Ok, We should be able to move the needle on this then, right? I am in for ANY of the following:

Chessie, Erie, EL, B&O, GN - 2R Diesels

Erie Steam - USRA Heavy Pacific 2R, USRA 0-8-0 2R

PRR Steam - Anything previously made in 2R would be of interest to me

NYC Steam - Anything previously made in 2R would be of interest to me, especially Hudsons, Mikados, and Mohawks. They literally just announced a run of Dreyfus and ESEs, but no 2R!

I would order up to 4 diesels or 2 steam engines per run if offered. So there you go, anyone else want to jump in on any of those?

Oh Yes. I almost forgot about that 2 rail Mohawk! (I never got around to ordering)

I would like the engines with out all the electronics, just put it on the track and go. I think dead rail may be the future.

Just to let you know I am a 2 rail guy. Not that i don't like the modern electronics, I am just old school.

@harley rider posted:

Just to let you know I am a 2 rail guy. Not that i don't like the modern electronics, I am just old school.

To each their own. I can't run trains without sound. It's one of my favorite aspects of the hobby. I definitely prefer my steam to have smoke units as well if possible. Which is why I like MTH Proto 3 scale wheel engines. Even if I choose to upgrade to an ESU LokSound decoder for better sounds and motor control, they are a good place to start.

I see in Atlas Spring and Fall catalogs for 2022 2 premier diesels are being offered, SD 70 Ace and GE ES44 series in both 3 rail and 2 rail versions, no mention of fixed pilots or scale wheels on the 2 rail versions. Features list  states Proto-Scale 3-2 conversion capable . Atlas rep told me they would check with the factory on fixed pilots, no knowledge of scale [insulated ?] wheels does any one have more info on this, all versions list for same price.

Getting MTH to offer ANY models with these features (scale wheels, 3/2, fixed pilots) will be a Great start. With a successful relaunch, we can begin focusing / requesting our specific wants. Shops offering special runs will be important as they can best target more regional roads and they know their local market (wants). I suggest we target model diesels that already have been done that have All the features we Want. If the tooling exists, it’s an easier “do” as there’s not added expense - like for pilot modification.  
All IMO of course. 🤔

Cheers 😉

Well MTH just announced a run of Premier U25Bs - 4 roads / all “hi-rail wheels”. They are 3/2 and have kadee compatible mounting pads. NO Fixed pilots !!! No scale wheel offerings. ☹️😳🫢😑😖😖😖😖😖 It’s a start I guess. 🤔.
We have to push for what we want. Perhaps the dealers can get them to expand the offering with the details we want via special runs with this tooling being available now 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔  

Does MTH still offer the 3/2 conversion kits for sale or did that go to Atlas ?

@TrainBub posted:

Anyone else out there beside me that can show us their examples of these well done MTH models ???    

I also have several 3rail Atlas F units that I’ve converted to fixed pilots. They require larger curve radius but the appearance with this upgrade is just So Nice !!!!  

I have [more than] a few. Been buying them since 2009. With a couple of precautions, they run well on Gargraves/Ross/Atlas track, but will find your bad track work for you. I only use two of the four pickup rollers when running them at the club. They DON'T like Atlas three-rail turnouts because the guard rails are too low to catch the flanges. I've found that the scale wheel engines, when paired, pull very well with longer trains. I run cars that are at (or sometimes above) NMRA recommended weight practices. I've noticed that the rolling stock with scale wheels seem to have lower rolling resistance than the fast-angle hi-rail wheels -- go figure.

BNSF AC4400W.

CNW AC4400W. I have an earlier hi-rail powered/dummy pair. I've purchased fixed pilots for those units and have a set of scale wheels for the powered unit. This should be fun.

BNSF Heritage ES44AC. I had initially tried to get one of the 6000 series and one of the 7000 series. The 6000 series was sold out so I bought a pair of the 7000's (which are still unopened). Then #6022 became available and I grabbed it.

The six UP Fallen Flag Heritage Units

U25b's

GP38-2's

GP35. I have four of them and there's a funny story behind them.

UP4141. I sold the hi-rail version and bought this one. It's very popular when I run it.

EMD "Caterpillar" demonstrator.

Another GP38-2

UP "As-Restored" Big Boy.

A pair of C40-8's. I had just picked up the second unit off eBay. I have a powered/dummy pair in hi-rail I plan to convert at some point.

UP 1943. I had just received it.

A close up of UP4014

Close-up of UP4141

SD45. I have two with the same number and I'll change it like I did with the GP35's and a U25b

C44-9W's.

@TrainBub posted:

Well MTH just announced a run of Premier U25Bs - 4 roads / all “hi-rail wheels”. They are 3/2 and have kadee compatible mounting pads. NO Fixed pilots !!! No scale wheel offerings. ☹️😳🫢😑😖😖😖😖😖 It’s a start I guess. 🤔.
We have to push for what we want. Perhaps the dealers can get them to expand the offering with the details we want via special runs with this tooling being available now 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔  

I just bought a pair of FM Trainmasters from a special run. They're Hi-rail, but are set up for the replacement scale wheels. The pilots look like they have holes for Kadees. I have to build a space block for the pilot. That looks like the direction MTH is going with its remaining tooling. Hopefully they'll get more of the replacement wheelsets in stock.

this is one reason  I avoid  MTH

@AGHRMatt posted:

I have [more than] a few. Been buying them since 2009. With a couple of precautions, they run well on Gargraves/Ross/Atlas track, but will find your bad track work for you. I only use two of the four pickup rollers when running them at the club. They DON'T like Atlas three-rail turnouts because the guard rails are too low to catch the flanges. I've found that the scale wheel engines, when paired, pull very well with longer trains.

@AGHRMatt, it doesn't look like any of your photos went through on this post.

@bigboy25 posted:

@AGHRMatt, it doesn't look like any of your photos went through on this post.

They showed in the initial post. I'll edit it.