What if Lionel were to build S Gauge steam engines with plastic shells.

I am all for it. When you look at the detailing available in modern plastic. It is outstanding. Why wouldn't we try this? For the record I'm a 35 year old married guy.  Probably one of the youngest on here for S anyway.

Bill, thanks for starting the new thread. Based on your comments above I would absolutely purchase plastic shell locomotives. I do think it is important they be painted and not bare plastic. I prefer Legacy with DCC compatibility.

Bill:

I am not opposed to plastic locomotives.  As long as the detail can be on the level with the Y-3's.  I would like the electronics to support DCC, but the Flyer Chief Berkshire performs remarkably well.  Have been very pleased with the offerings from Lionel motive power.  Would also encourage more rolling stock items now that the truck fiasco of the cylindrical hoppers is behind us.

Roger

It was interesting to note that the cost of a plastic engine at cost price to Lionel could be somewhere between 1/4 and a 1/3 of a die cast engine. So taking a stab in the dark could we assume that the Y3 cost Lionel about $400 and they then sell them to dealers for somewhere over $500? If some dealers have been moving them on for not much more for clearnece I would like to think that they are not doing so at a loss, or may be?

So on a hyperthetical set of figures above, a plastic Y3 could  cost Lionel $150-175 to have produced. The problem now is that if people accept plastic shells on steamers,  will they pass on what could be a significant saving to the end purchaser or will they take advantage of a lower unit cost and still keep the prices up high close to a die cast unit and therefore make a larger profit for themselves?

If they were honourable and set the cost to the end user at a pro rata rate then there could be some great deals to be had and possibly people that just buy a single item could be tempted to purchase more. Just out of interest what does an HO plastic Y3 cost these days?

Then this brings us onto the freight and passenger cars being offered, if steam locomotives could cost us considerably less by being plastic, then why are we paying so much for for them? ( I think most of us have our views on this).

As for Legacy or Lionchief, I am happy to have them as Lionchief, keeps cost down and has most things I need. 

The plastic should be thick enough to be sturdy. Steam engines have lots of things hanging out, like cab roofs, pilots, smoke stacks and so on. The plastic will have to be thick like Gilbert locos so as not to be broken off easily.

You could really feel the difference in the thickness of Williams diesel shells when they went from traditional locos (F-7, GP-9, Sharks) to scale locos (AlCo FA, EMD E-7) and such.

The detail on the SD70s, U33s and ES44s are fantastic.  Obviously all plastic and good pullers.  As long as a steamer looks great and pulls I don't care if it is plastic.  I want more product and choices in the S gauge market.  If plastic is the answer so be it.

Are there any good examples of highly detailed plastic steamers out there in other gauges to take a look at for comparison? 

Ben 

NotInWI posted:

The detail on the SD70s, U33s and ES44s are fantastic.  Obviously all plastic and good pullers.  As long as a steamer looks great and pulls I don't care if it is plastic.  I want more product and choices in the S gauge market.  If plastic is the answer so be it.

Are there any good examples of highly detailed plastic steamers out there in other gauges to take a look at for comparison? 

Ben 

Howz ziz?

The Athearn HO SP MT4.

Rusty

Roundhouse Bill posted:

 Assuming the engines had enough weight to pull the same number of cars as a Y3, would you purchase a plastic shelled locomotive?

Nope. 

Plastic steam engines are OK for down market starter sets, but not for quality pieces in the larger scales. Die cast is more durable over the long term with screw threads that are better able to withstand damage after repeated reassembly. And, I suspect the claimed cost savings is being overstated (the electronics are to be still comparable). Maerklin (arguably, the world's best mass market train maker with the durability and QC to prove it) dabbled in plastic for a short period and then reverted to sheet metal and die cast because of quality (real and perceived) and lack of customer acceptance. SHS incorporated much plastic into the design of the tender and detail parts for their 2-8-0, resulting in many of its parts being fragile. Many fear to disassemble or ship it. By contemporary comparison, the all-metal Lionel-AF Mikado and Pacific are far more physically robust.

Rolling stock and diesel body shells are often brought up to support the use of plastic. Rolling stock gains in light weight and cost, but rolling stock are not usually operating devices and are seldom taken apart for repair. The easily stripped screw holes in diesel bodies are precisely what puts me off. And, notice, if you will, that the most premium of diesels and electrics in Lionel's O scale lineup (i.e., JLC, VL) are made from die cast.

Metal = quality. Plastic = cheapo.

Bob

Bob,

I agree that stripped plastic screw holes are a real pain but if Lionel know what our views are now, then it shouldn't be difficult to have a metal threaded insert set into a plastic housing which would overcome this problem

Ukaflyer posted:

Just out of interest what does an HO plastic Y3 cost these days?

 

Not a Y3 (which currently isn't available in HO,) but the plastic Athearn HO SP MT4 pictured three posts up MSRP's out at $419.98 with DCC and Tsunami sound.  $319.98 for straight DC, no sound.

I think what's going to need to happen is what type of plastic steam locomotive, if it's going to be Conventional, Legacy or FlyerChief and an estimated price range before folks can make a valid decision on if they'd be interested or not.

Rusty

Rusty, Lionel has done no active planning on plastic locomotives. This is just a consideration.

Bob, all of the Flyonel diesels have plastic screw holes. How many have you had problems with? You are thinking of 60 year old Gilbert engines.

Thanks for your interest.

Ed Rappe sold me a Weaver brass 4-6-0 chassis a while back and I made a boiler for it using a length of 2" PVC round stock.

Its more or less "plastic" although it was a solid piece.

After turning the outside shape on my mini-lathe I bored the middle out with a 3/4" drill bit (for headlight wiring) and cut out the clearance for the motor and drive components.

With some brass parts added on it's just as heavy and sturdy as any of my Diecast engines.

I would be happy to see plastic steam, the detail should be better and crisper than Diecast.

I'm all for it!

Plastic boilers on steamers is OK by me.  It can be as detailed as the manufacturer makes it.  The weight is not a problem if the locomotive is balanced correctly and has traction tires.  Die cast may be better, but again, it all depends on the amount of detail the manufacturer puts into it.  However, if it's Lionel, I'll never buy it.  My C&O Berk which was sent back and repaired by Charles Ro's service department for running issues has now had its smoke unit quit after about 5 hours running.  This thing is a lemon, even having a metal boiler.  When it ran, it ran great and pulled as many cars as I wanted.  I never wanted TMCC, FlyerChief, Legacy or anything but basic sound and smoke.  As my dad used to say about more options on cars: "More to go wrong."  He was right.

Roundhouse Bill posted:

Rusty, Lionel has done no active planning on plastic locomotives. This is just a consideration.

Hmmm...

Rusty

Roundhouse Bill posted:

Bob, all of the Flyonel diesels have plastic screw holes. How many have you had problems with? You are thinking of 60 year old Gilbert engines.

Thanks for your interest.

Yes, I am, but there is a similar problem with relatively new O scale diesels, too. A threaded insert, as suggested above, would help. With over 60 years of experience in the hobby, I clearly prefer metal for motive power. I shall leave it to others to financially experiment with plastic-bodied steam, particularly for the first production run. 

Thanks for asking.

Bob

I cannot see the cost advantage if the same level of detail is accomplished. The detail is in the add on components. They cannot be molded in, because for the most part they are hanging out there in free air. So, what is the advantage of molded plastic?

it sounds like it is worth a try

Bob C.

Oman posted:

I cannot see the cost advantage if the same level of detail is accomplished. The detail is in the add on components. They cannot be molded in, because for the most part they are hanging out there in free air. So, what is the advantage of molded plastic?

I'm not a tool maker and it really needs someone that is to reply to this but I would say that for a die cast body you might be using a hardened steel which is going to take longer to cut and possibly be more difficult to work, whereas for plastic you could get away with material that is a lot easier to work and let's you add more detail and will run off a lot of copies, therefore costs can be greatly reduced.

Keith:  The tooling for a plastic engine is much less expensive that diecast.  The tooling to make the mold for making the engine shells over and over again is what is the most expensive for Lionel and MTH in developing new engines.  It is the high cost of developing and building the tooling that keeps these companies from building all the engine types we could ask for.   

Hey Lionel, if you are really interested in getting feedback on this issue, why not come to the Spring S Spree, the NASG Convention and the Fall S Fest where you can mingle with S People and get some real feedback?  You are always welcome.

Mike A.

Mikeaa posted:

Hey Lionel, if you are really interested in getting feedback on this issue, why not come to the Spring S Spree, the NASG Convention and the Fall S Fest where you can mingle with S People and get some real feedback?  You are always welcome.

Mike A.

My, my...  Where have I heard similar sentiments like that before?

BTW, is anybody here also on the S-Trains Yahoo board to float this trial balloon over there? 

I thought of floating this on S-Scale Yahoo and the S Scale SIG, but unless there would be an indication that a theoretical plastic steam locomotive could be converted to scale and operate on DC/DCC, a lead balloon would seem light by comparison.

Rusty

Plastic has a perceived cheapness. One that will never go away! It is in bread in the fabric of the American consumer...certainly for some reason. As a example...Lionel's plastic tab couplers....anyone want to trade in there new die cast couplers?

If Lionel is following this, I'll throw my hat in the ring and say I'd welcome a plastic steamer if it was scale proportioned and not have too many cast in details. No cast in handrails please. A ledge of material representing a wire handrail in a scale this large is inexcusable. FlyerCheif is fine. Legacy is better. 

Fine by me.

Screws stripping is a non-issue to me. There should rarely be any reason to open them up in the first place. In my experience brass is much more prone to stripping than plastic and that hasn't stopped anyone from making brass.

How Many People here think the SD70 or other new diesels from Lionel are Cheap?  its just a question.

I have not ever thought they were cheap.  I mean if you can make plastic steam perform just like the Y3 or Berkshire (but better detailing) it seems foolish not to. 

I would rather have a detailed plastic Berk with handrails vs a metal berk with molded on handrails.  FYI I have said Berkshires and love them.  for me it all comes down to performance. 

Plastic-bodied steam engines

Positive

1. Lower investment cost, less risk for Lionel
2. Greater variety of locomotives and quicker time to market
3. Better molded in detail
4. Lower price point—maybe—for locomotives
   1. Highly detailed versions with Legacy electronics (Challenger, Mikado, Pacific, Y-3)
   2. Less detailed versions with Flyer Chief similar to Berkshire (the Chevy Biscayne, Belaire, Impala model—same car/more detailing for a higher price; maximizes return on the investment)

Negative

1. Some market resistance to plastic bodies as “cheap”
2. Concern about screws stripping plastic body (metal inserts could be molded in as in the U33C)

Metal-bodied steam engines

Positive

1. Offer the image of higher quality
2. Heavier bodies can offer more traction

Negative

1. Higher investment cost, more risk
2. High price points to recover higher costs
3. Build-to-order sales approach—reduces prospect of production (mechanical reefers only met 10% of minimum required for production—not because of lack of interest but because of distrust caused by the cylindrical hopper fiasco)
4. Fewer choices offered; extended time to market

When I weigh the pros and cons, I would prefer to have more choices, more variety, and lower costs; so a plastic body on a Legacy steam locomotive that looks as good and runs as well as a Y-3 for $700 and a plastic Berkshire Flyer Chief type for $400 is fine with me.  A $1,500 build-to-order metal-bodied steam locomotive that may or may not be built--you won't know until the hobby shop either cancels the order or ships it four years after you have placed the order--is not the way to build interest or excitement.

Is everyone thinking that lower production cost will equate to lower selling price?

Maybe, just maybe, the selling price is based on what the market will bear.

Lionel tried a low selling price experiment with the O gauge Milwaukee road S-3 Northern. To their dismay, it did not sell in sufficient quantities to justify offering more lower cost locomotives.

Plastic is fine.  I have no interest in/use for Legacy or LionChief technologies.

RadioRon posted:

Plastic is fine.  I have no interest in/use for Legacy or LionChief technologies.

As long as the detail is applied and not cast.  Concur with the proprietary systems, I don't want to have to pay for something I'm only going to rip out.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Word I got was not cast in detail.  

I think you guys are going to have to get over no proprietary electronics.  Lionel and MTH are not going to back off those in their locomotives.   

Rusty Traque posted:

Mikeaa posted:

Hey Lionel, if you are really interested in getting feedback on this issue, why not come to the Spring S Spree, the NASG Convention and the Fall S Fest where you can mingle with S People and get some real feedback?  You are always welcome.

Mike A.

My, my...  Where have I heard similar sentiments like that before?

BTW, is anybody here also on the S-Trains Yahoo board to float this trial balloon over there? 

I thought of floating this on S-Scale Yahoo and the S Scale SIG, but unless there would be an indication that a theoretical plastic steam locomotive could be converted to scale and operate on DC/DCC, a lead balloon would seem light by comparison.

Rusty

Rusty,

My guess is most of the S-Trains group is similar to the S-Scale groups. They been running S trains for far longer the Lionel has been cramming proprietary systems down the throat of the collective S trains market. They didn’t need it before and probably only newcomers would embrace it now.

Who is going to convert DC or DCC to Legacy? AM and SHS both offered engines without proprietary systems so I know it is possible to leave out the Legacy or TMCC or whatever the next new not necessarily backward compatible system is.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Lionel has to respond to two markets. the old dudes and the young guys bringing youth into the hobby. The electronics are not going away. and I think with SHS and AM it was more of a matter of economics. they sell to a much smaller niche than the Big L aims to sell to. 

Plastic shells on steam loks? No thank you.

Tom Stoltz posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

Mikeaa posted:

Hey Lionel, if you are really interested in getting feedback on this issue, why not come to the Spring S Spree, the NASG Convention and the Fall S Fest where you can mingle with S People and get some real feedback?  You are always welcome.

Mike A.

My, my...  Where have I heard similar sentiments like that before?

BTW, is anybody here also on the S-Trains Yahoo board to float this trial balloon over there? 

I thought of floating this on S-Scale Yahoo and the S Scale SIG, but unless there would be an indication that a theoretical plastic steam locomotive could be converted to scale and operate on DC/DCC, a lead balloon would seem light by comparison.

Rusty

Rusty,

My guess is most of the S-Trains group is similar to the S-Scale groups. They been running S trains for far longer the Lionel has been cramming proprietary systems down the throat of the collective S trains market. They didn’t need it before and probably only newcomers would embrace it now.

Who is going to convert DC or DCC to Legacy? AM and SHS both offered engines without proprietary systems so I know it is possible to leave out the Legacy or TMCC or whatever the next new not necessarily backward compatible system is.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Tom,

I wasn't addressing the proprietary systems, like Bill says, those are here to stay.  There's still a contingent of 3-rail O gaugers that want nothing to do with TMCC, Legacy, Chief or DCS while both Lionel and MTH sail right past them.

I was addressing the plastic steamer trial balloon.  If Lionel's going to rely solely on this forum for input, they're only going to get a small and perhaps skewed sample.

I know the scale guys would have zero interest unless conversion is possible (notice I didn't say optional or available) so it makes no sense to even bring the subject up to them.  But S-Trains is where the Gilbert Gang hangs out and if someone here (I'm not) is on that forum, it would probably be worth it to make the boys on Yahoo aware of the possibility.

After all, if the question is going to be asked publicly, wouldn't the largest sample possible be desirable?  Otherwise, design it, build it and take your accolades or lumps with the market.

Ultimately, if Lionel makes something I would want to have, I'll buy it. (Assuming they don't short my LHS's distributor again...)  If not, I'll just look at all the pretty pictures in the catalog.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

Mikeaa posted:

Hey Lionel, if you are really interested in getting feedback on this issue, why not come to the Spring S Spree, the NASG Convention and the Fall S Fest where you can mingle with S People and get some real feedback?  You are always welcome.

Mike A.

My, my...  Where have I heard similar sentiments like that before?

BTW, is anybody here also on the S-Trains Yahoo board to float this trial balloon over there? 

I thought of floating this on S-Scale Yahoo and the S Scale SIG, but unless there would be an indication that a theoretical plastic steam locomotive could be converted to scale and operate on DC/DCC, a lead balloon would seem light by comparison.

Rusty

Hi Rusty,

If I'm repeating something said by you or someone else here, I didn't mean to plagiarize. 

However, since Roundhouse Bill said Lionel is reading this thread, I thought it was worth mentioning even if it was mentioned before.

Mike A.

I have a Gilbert Flyer 293, plastic shell, with a can motor conversion and ERR Mini Commander 2.  It does regular duty at shows.  It's a good puller, able to do 30 cars (with modern-production trucks, such as SHS, AM, or K-Line) with no problem at all.

I like the feel and weight of a diecast loco and tender as you are putting it on the track, but if a plastic-bodied steamer pulls well and is reliable... I don't think the material it's made of is that much of an issue.

Taking the mechanism built for the Berkshires, truncating it to 6 drivers instead of 8 and putting a nicely detailed plastic shell on top with FlyerChief for < $300 or full legacy for <$500....  you could have a pretty big hit there, I think.

Giving a nod to Jerry's post above, I've developed a real dislike for fan-driven smoke units.  When they work they're great.  But they just don't seem to hold up. A pencil-eraser sized motor assaulted by oil and heat is gonna lead a short life.  I know on the articulated models there wasn't another choice, but is it possible to do a piston-type smoker, like Gilbert did and AM did on their Northern?  There should be plenty of room in the tender for the electronics.  In my 293 conversion above I was able to fit the Mini Commander, Railsounds board and speaker in the tender.

Nick C.

I for one am not crazy about the notion of plastic steam engine shells.  Not that I don't think they will be detailed enough, or possibly even durable enough, but that I don't think plastic bodied steam engines will have the same balance, smooth running, and pulling power as die cast shells.  For example, I very much like and enjoy American Hi-rail and Balston Locomotive Works steam engines (especially the streamlined models like the Hiawatha and 20th Century Limited), but with resin bodies, they wobble more than their die cast Gilbert AF counterparts.  Nothing like the heft of a die cast to smooth things out.  

Original Gilbert 293's were diecast with plastic tenders.