WHAT IS 3-RAIL SCALE?

Allan Miller posted:

Originally Posted by Martin H:

 

Why can't the fixed-pilot kadee-coupler guys have their own forum?

 

My feeling--and I mean this sincerely--is that those who are focused almost exclusively on the equipment end of things should seriously consider forming a National Model Railroad Association (NMRA) 3RS Special Interest Group.  The NMRA is the one entity in the hobby--all scales--that works with industry to develop Standards and Recommended Practices.  They are the one organization with a proven record in that regard, and they are best equipped to meet the needs of those who are concerned with the more technical aspects of the hobby, including motive power and rolling stock, control systems, track standards, compatibility issues, etc.

 

And I don't want to see anyone write that the "NMRA isn't interested in 3-rail."  If that's true at all, it's because the 3-rail hobbyists themselves have not shown much interest in making themselves a part of the organization and because they have chosen to remain on the outside looking in.  It's their fault, not the NMRA's fault.

 

I have been a Life Member of the NMRA since the late 1970s and have participated, at various times, as a hobbyist involved in Z, N, HO, O, and Large Scale.  Yes, the majority of NMRA members are involved with HO and N scales because those are the largest segments of the overall hobby.  But it still is an inclusive organization that welcomes ALL who are devoted to sharing this hobby and improving modeling standards and the products offered.

 

If my personal modeling interest was in the pure scale aspects of O, I would probably do one of two things:  I would sell off all of my 3-rail and go with 2-rail (the most logical albeit expensive route), or I would remain with 3-rail but would align myself closely with the group that is most apt to help affect productive changes that would bring 3-rail closer to my level of expectations.  That group is most certainly the NMRA.

So, Allan, if I may be so bold, why hasn't someone started a 3-R S.I.G. under the NMRA umbrella? Have there been past attempts that have failed? I honestly don't know...

Hmm, interesting dialog going on here. To me, 3 rail scale would be exactly as already stated...getting as much scale detail as possible within the scope of using 3 rail track/trains. What is so tough about that?

For me, trains started under the Christmas tree like I am sure they did for most everybody here. Lionel, Tyco and an Aurora postage stamp set. I believe in that order for me and then it just kept on going. Now 52, I have built in N scale, HO scale and G scale in the garden. I've messed around with a little live steam and done a very small O scale 3 rail layout.

I am now planning to build an O scale layout in my office/man cave. For me, I love scale, as close as I can get, but I also have financial and space limitations like most of us probably do. Oddly enough, I have my heart set on the MTH line of AEM-7's. They don't come with the ability to easily go from 3 rail to 2 rail like a lot of the company's other offerings do. With the factors at play in making everything work in 2 rail, I have decided to just stick with 3 rail. So for me, it comes down to compromise and practicality. Yes, part of me wants to go 2 rail scale, but reality tells me that for what I want to accomplish it will be a more practical road to go 3 rail scale....

Look forward to sharing with everybody.

-Todd 

You  do  the  best  you  can  with  what  you  have. I'm  trying  to  do  realistic  scenery  on  my  new  layout(and  I  think  you  can  kitbash   and  weather  Plasticville). I'm  trying  to  have  prototypical  consists and  correct  regional  and  era  consists  running  together. Don't  run  the  N&W  746 J  with  the  Amtrak  Genesis  nor  have  the  Santa Fe 2353  pulling   articulated  CSX  auto  loader  cars.  As  for  things  like  swinging  pilots,  remember  our  sharp  curves:  we  need  stuff  like  that. OGR  ran  an  article  several  years  ago  about  if  we  had  our  curves  actually  to  scale  on  what  the  12"  to  the  foot  trains  did, our  urban  trolleys  would  be  O88, our  branch  lines  might  be  O180,  and  our  main  lines  might  be  something  like  O360.  So  we  have  to  have  something  that  would  fit  in  a  house  smaller  than  Jerryworld   in  Arlington, Texas. 

3 rail scale.

3 Rail Scale

Hmmmmmmmm.....the term is an oxymoron to begin with.  Body mounted scale couplers, scale wheels, weathering, etc.?  And yet you still have a third rail?  It all depends on how realistic one wants their equipment to be.  How can someone look down their nose at another person who has scale size and detailed trains  with “lobster claw” couplers when they still operate with three rails??  I myself  have come to like the scale sized and proportioned freight and passenger cars and locomotives.    I live with the “lobster claw“ couplers and the third rail.    It is all a matter of personal choice .  And I still appreciate Post-War and Pre-War tinplate trains.

Bob Schulz 

3 Rail 3 Rail Scale??

We've been through that discussion way too many times over the last 11 years I've been on this forum.  Why criticize someone for enjoying the hobby simply because it's not how you enjoy it?  That is the true oxymoron. 

BurlingtonBill posted:

So, Allan, if I may be so bold, why hasn't someone started a 3-R S.I.G. under the NMRA umbrella? Have there been past attempts that have failed? I honestly don't know...

I really can't answer that question. I'm an NMRA Life Member and have long been involved in multiple scales: Z, N, HO, O, On30, and Large Scale, so my interests are sufficiently varied to maintain my interest and involvement in the NMRA or just about any other group. I son'tsee any particular reason why there couln't be a 3RS SIG in the lineup. Perhaps everyone is sitting back waiting for someone else to go to the trouble to get the ball rolling.

Our readers will see a superb example of what "3-rail Scale" is in our upcoming October issue (Run 301). If that one isn't 3-rail Scale, I don't know what is.

I agree with Jonathan Peiffer, we should all just do it our own way and enjoy our hobby.

Allan Miller posted:

BurlingtonBill posted:

So, Allan, if I may be so bold, why hasn't someone started a 3-R S.I.G. under the NMRA umbrella? Have there been past attempts that have failed? I honestly don't know...

I really can't answer that question. I'm an NMRA Life Member and have long been involved in multiple scales: Z, N, HO, O, On30, and Large Scale, so my interests are sufficiently varied to maintain my interest and involvement in the NMRA or just about any other group. I son'tsee any particular reason why there couln't be a 3RS SIG in the lineup. Perhaps everyone is sitting back waiting for someone else to go to the trouble to get the ball rolling.

Our readers will see a superb example of what "3-rail Scale" is in our upcoming October issue (Run 301). If that one isn't 3-rail Scale, I don't know what is.

My opinion is; the NMRA has excellent "standards" for 2-Rail O SCALE, and most/many of those recommended standards can also be used by us 3-Rail SCALE modelers. However, that said, one of the biggest problems in the 3-Rail hobby is, neither Lionel nor MTH make any attempt for follow "standards", let alone NMRA "standards"! Only Sunset/3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot and Atlas tend to follow O SCALE "standards".

Cobrabob posted:

I agree with Jonathan Peiffer, we should all just do it our own way and enjoy our hobby.

It's too great a hobby not to enjoy!  I had fun with 3RS for a while.  If I could get my home modular layout set up again, It runs nice out the outside loop, pulling the slack out of a string of Kadee coupler equipped cars sounds like the real thing and no digital circuit is required! 

However, now I'm having more fun getting into 2 rail O.  However, that's just me.  I like my small collections of tinplate, HO and N as well.  The only one that doesn't do it for me is post-war Lionel.  Not my thing, but I have many, many friends who love it and I respect their interests.  I've learned a lot about it over the years and do have a 2332 and 773 in my collection just because. 

Hot Water posted:

My opinion is; the NMRA has excellent "standards" for 2-Rail O SCALE, and most/many of those recommended standards can also be used by us 3-Rail SCALE modelers. However, that said, one of the biggest problems in the 3-Rail hobby is, neither Lionel nor MTH make any attempt for follow "standards", let alone NMRA "standards"! Only Sunset/3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot and Atlas tend to follow O SCALE "standards".

As I recall, there has never been really a 3 rail NMRA standard for the very reason you list.  Most manufacturers have their own standards in 3 rail. 

I agree that the NMRA 2 rail standards gauge is very useful for 3 rail scale O.  That and the Kadee coupler height gauge.  I'd be lost without that one!

GG1 4877 posted:

We've been through that discussion way too many times over the last 11 years I've been on this forum.  Why criticize someone for enjoying the hobby simply because it's not how you enjoy it?  That is the true oxymoron. 

 

I agree with Jonathan ( GG1 4877 ) it matters not  how you run your trains or how you do it. If you enjoy what your doing then keep doing it and not somebody else's version on how they think you should do it! 

Above all, have fun,

Dave

Cobrabob posted:

How can someone look down their nose at another person who has scale size and detailed trains  with “lobster claw” couplers when they still operate with three rails??

Bob Schulz 

Some of that goes on in S scale, too.  And there's no third rail to deal with...

Rusty

I have seen many topics of discussion in this regard and my question is are we really having this discussion on this FORUM OF BROTHERHOOD?!

I think it is pretty sad that in a hobby that should be fun we have managed to create division. I get on Youtube and see modelers of other scales just trash 3 Rail posts. It's sad to see it there but I thought that in this forum that kind of division would not happen.

I have seen more toy-like layouts to layouts that I swear are near the tracks I just crossed in my car and seen them done well. That's the beauty of the hobby. When a man or women expresses themselves in this hobby that's just it, their expression. Who are any of us to knock, criticize, discriminate, or down right just be ugly about the creativity of a fellow model railroader and the bigger question is why would we want to? It really takes the fun out of this great hobby and it saddens me that we have an entire thread, that I don't believe was intended to be this way, devoted to it. 

Everyone please understand that words can be hurtful and this hobby is a great one and there is no room to be that way. There is so much we have to deal with in the real world and now apparently it has trickled its way into the little worlds we have created in our layouts.

Think of the men and women who have created a layout based on the toy trains they remember as a child. That layout brings back not only memories of their youth but memories of the people in their lives who have passed on. Think of the men and women who have created that fine scaled layout that rivals the real thing because that was the one thing they could say they are proud of and shows that they can do something worthy of praise. For both extremes it took a lot of time and heart to create what ultimately will be a place of fellowship, entertainment, reflection, and yes solace. So yes, words and comments can hurt. 

I am not saying that we all should not have preferences, yeah sure, but our preferences should not have to be knocked or criticized because we are not doing something the way our colleagues would. 

I may be reading into this more than I should but when you're passionate about something emotion is a part of that passion. I come to this site daily because it makes me happy. The variety, the pride, the fellowship, and the encouragement is of the highest caliber. This is the first time I have come in here and not felt that way and have felt a negative feeling that I thought I left out there in this cold world.

Anyways, who am I? That's just my 2 cents worth. Everyone keep enjoying trains the way you like and as long as you get enjoyment out of it, that is ultimately what matters. 

Dave

For what it's worth, I use NMRA O scale standards on my railroad. Also, a combination of code 148 2 rail track and Scaletrax and radio controlled brass and brass 3 rail locos.

It works together well.

3-rail scale involves a lot of things - Kadee type couplers, fixed pilots, full length handrails, scale fuel tanks, just to mention a few. Trying to get the realism factor from every angle, including scale looking track ( not Lionel tinplate type with 3 ties). This is why this forum 3RS was formed.  It has nothing to do with limited participants but a place for those who PREFER these things mentioned. 

I personally dislike lobster couplers, swinging pilots, short body mounted handrails and tinplate track. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with those things, it's just not for me. 

Heres a pic of a SD70ACe for 3RS and some modified MTH coalporters heavily modified including different bottoms, modified truck placement scale 36" wheels, etc. I like these cars a bunch compared to stock MTH coalporters which is how they arrived originally. Also note the real coal loads, not the plastic loads these cars come with. Then the mods took place on the SD70ACe which had underframe details added, custom cab shades made, and an Overland brass GPS unit added on the roof. 

Still much to do- brake line hoses, lightbweathering, etc. 

I tried to accept the swinging pilots and lobster claw couplers, but when I saw Kadees could be used I didn't hesitate to make the change.  Reading where folks super glued or zip tied their couplers together to get them to  work made no sense to me.

I even went from conventional to DCS/TMCC, but the "atmosphere" surrounding both systems prompted me to look for an alternative.  I've always been interested in RC and when I realized I could run a heavy O scale engine/train off battery power that's all it took.  No sound yet (except for my 2 engines using the BlueRail board) but all engines run around the layout just fine.

So...I've gone from 3-rail to 3RS and now to BPRC on 2-rail code 148 track, still using hi-rail wheels.  I don't know what to call what I have, the only thing keeping it from being entirely 2-rail scale are the hi-rail wheels, the center rail and pickup rollers are long gone from the layout.

Whatever it is I'm blaming folks like the late Ed Reutling, Martin Brechbiel, Bob Turner, and several others.

Hey...they just look better with Kadees!!!

Reading these posts makes me wonder if it is evolution in this hobby that makes us strive for high rail. I want to stay where I am in the hobby now. I really don’t want to evolve I’m thinking. Just enjoying my layout and learning new things. I evolved in another hobby and lost the drive to partake in it anymore. In many ways I think it has to happen, but I’m not going to rush it. So I still enjoy tasteful layouts, and expect to see 75 foot street lamps and 50 foot crossings. My two cents. 

John Kerr 063018 posted:

Reading these posts makes me wonder if it is evolution in this hobby that makes us strive for high rail. I want to stay where I am in the hobby now. I really don’t want to evolve I’m thinking. Just enjoying my layout and learning new things. I evolved in another hobby and lost the drive to partake in it anymore. In many ways I think it has to happen, but I’m not going to rush it. So I still enjoy tasteful layouts, and expect to see 75 foot street lamps and 50 foot crossings. My two cents. 

Evolution in the hobby has to be inevitable, otherwise we'd still be regulating speed by screwing and unscrewing light bulbs...

Without a doubt, had not the hobby evolved beyond the post war tooling and technology, O wouldn't be enjoying the popularity it is today.  Had the 3-Rail Scale movement been in force 35 years ago, it would have been a valid alternative for me when I switched out of HO. (I went into S Scale...) 

Rusty

For what 3 rail O gauge scale can be-check out what Norm C. does. To me, that is the ultimate O gauge layout. there are others out there, too, I am sure.

    While it is possible for any given model (of anything at all) to be very close to scale, all model railroads are a caricature of the prototype. The most fanatical fine-scaler still uses curves sharper than any prototype and the largest model empire still has no more than a few scale miles of track. It always comes back to different-strokes-for-different-folks or whatever-floats-your-boat. That is, is it fun?

   Personally I am of the Frank Ellison school in viewing the layout as a stage and the rolling stock as the actors in a play that I put on. Operation is my thing and I stick with bullet-proof truck-mounted "lobster claws", oversized flanges and the third rail for the sake of near-100% coupling/uncoupling performance, zero derailments and 100% no-stall electrical performance.

   I use Lionel near-scale NW2s, near-scale F3s, near scale extruded aluminum passenger cars, and MTH near-scale freight rolling stock rolling along on semi-realistic Fastrack through semi-realistic scenery. To my eye and brain this stuff looks and acts like real trains in miniature. I have watched more than a few prototype coupling/uncoupling operations and the lobster-claws are large enough to visibly evoke the real thing in my brain. When I look at the oversized flanges and 5' gauge in my mind I see the real thing. Again, to me it is all caricature and mind games and it is fun.

    As such I do enjoy the 3rs forum but probably have nothing to contribute there.

Lew

I must be a 3-rail scale person, too although my third rail is about 4½ inches above the center of the track!

PRRMP54 posted:

I must be a 3-rail scale person, too although my third rail is about 4½ inches above the center of the track!

Very nice trolley work. Is there a 1920s era bus model to go with it, instead of that modern vehicle?

MELGAR

I’m following this with interest. There is no real equivalent to O Gauge Hi-rail in UK, although the O Gauge Group I went to a couple of weeks ago might be so defined. 

There WAS once a definite school of “3 rail scale OO” at one time, using 3 rail and stud contact track in a scale modelling context (including stud contact EM at times) mostly with hand laid track. 

I think it’s mostly because Tri-Ang, who out-competed Hornby Dublo, were always 2-rail so the “nostalgia” sector here is “Tri-Ang 2-rail”

MELGAR posted:

PRRMP54 posted:

I must be a 3-rail scale person, too although my third rail is about 4½ inches above the center of the track!

Very nice trolley work. Is there a 1920s era bus model to go with it, instead of that modern vehicle?

MELGAR

Sorry for the late (very) reply, I just saw this thread again. Yes there are some suitable buses by Corgi from the fifties that would fit in fairly well (if you can tolerate 1/50 buses with 1/48 trolleys and 1/43 vehicles) as cars similar to the orange one ran into the early to mid fifties. Or one could do a little "era-swapping"; a 1930s PCC, a 1960s bus, and Divco milk trucks:

@Trinity River Bottoms Boomer posted:

Wow, the last post is dated 24.05.13.  Lot's has changed since then.  If there are any Three Rail "Fine Scale" O Gauge Railroading modelers who are proud of your work, now is the time to share it with the rest of the crew!

There 6 or 7 of us on here.  More on the links below...

@Trinity River Bottoms Boomer posted:

Wow, the last post is dated 24.05.13. 

That’s just the end of the first page.  There are 4 pages in this thread alone with the replies per page set to 40.

I was very interested in 3 Rail Scale when this specific forum was still part of the 3-Rail forum.  The early days of the 3-Rail Scale forum were a little contentious to say the least, but it has certainly calmed down quite a bit over the years.  I did a few conversions to fixed pilots and scale couplers on locomotives and converted most of my PRR & NJT fleet to 3RS about 10 years ago.  

However, about 8 years back I caught the 2 rail bug and that is why I don't post much on here anymore.  I found that scale wheels and scale rail without the 3rd Rail was just more appealing to me.   No disrespect to any of the 3 rail scale modelers.  It is a great look and has a lot more options.  

I still collect 3 rail as well as I belong to a 3 rail operating club, but keep the roads more in line with what might be seen on a western themed railroad.  Mainly ATSF, SP, a tad of UP, and Amtrak.  

In two rail, I've been pretty good about limiting my purchases to CNJ and PRR.  I was proud of myself lately as I passed on a well priced GEM PRR F3 Mogul as it was about 25 years out of era with the PRR I model.   However, I'm already pretty heavy on the PRR side so mainly focusing on CNJ at the moment.  It's hard to find accurate base models to start with so the thrill of the search is what makes that exicting.

Still this is a great forum and I see a lot of wonderful modeling going on in this realm.  

This is 3 rail scale.

@Trinity River Bottoms Boomer posted:

To: rplst8: Apology #2 for Sunday, 04.10.20.  I forgot to take off my blinders this AM.  Gads, what a thought...Sorry once again!

...and before anybody inquires: No, I haven't had so much as one sip of German beer today.

No apology necessary.  Just thought I’d point it out so you could see the three pages you were missing out on! 

@GG1 4877 posted:

I was very interested in 3 Rail Scale when this specific forum was still part of the 3-Rail forum.  The early days of the 3-Rail Scale forum were a little contentious to say the least, but it has certainly calmed down quite a bit over the years. 

Yes, that's how I remember it as well.  I looked in on it, but decided that I didn't want to put up with the self-righteous shrieking about lobster claw couplers and oversized wheels ("Oh, the humanity..."  ).  So I stayed away and kept the Panhandle out of any discussion on it.

For the record, I think of the Panhandle as a scale model railroad that happens to operate on three rails.  Retaining the couplers and wheels is a practical nod to trouble-free operations.

George

@OGR CEO-PUBLISHER posted:

What is 3-Rail Scale?

3-Rail Scale is an approach to model railroading that strives to achieve the most true-to-prototype realism possible with locomotives, rolling stock, paint schemes, scenery, operation, and other aspects of the hobby within the context of using 3-rail O gauge track.

Regardless of the scale you choose, be it 1:48 on the North American continent, 1:43.5 for France and the UK, and 1:45 for Germany and Switzerland, the overall idea is to get as close to the prototype as you can in your pursuit of the hobby with the talents you possess.  This would include but not limited to the use of scale couplers, and other conversions that make the model as close to prototypical as possible.

3-Rail Scale is an attitude toward the O gauge hobby that derives satisfaction and fun from using the prototype as its guide. The intent in 3-Rail Scale is to continually strive for as much prototype realism as possible within the limitations of time, talent, and available space.

More than any other single thing, the desire for realism in miniature distinguishes 3-Rail Scale from other segments of the 3-rail hobby.

Maybe it would be a good idea to put a brief description of three rail SCALE in the header for that section of the forum. Just like you did for the HONGZ forum.

That might stop at least SOME of the folks who post in the wrong forum.