What is Atlas to do.

I think Atlas is going to be very conservative about releasing new product for the next year or so--because of the economy, and also because of their situation with their builder in China.

I personally believe that Atlas should have released the F-units as Trainman models. I think it would have been a better move for them and resulted in more sales/profit.

Jeff C

I don't know how much of a pain the new CZ cars where but they are beautiful models. GGD pretty much has this market but with the quality Atlas has would make them a good competitor. Diesels are a tough sell if Altas made SD70ACe, Dash-8, Dash-9, AC44CW, ES44AC/DC with DCC and MTH were to do the same with PS3 I think many folks would have a tough time deciding. MTH has the tooling and is more than likely to deliver something in a timely manner while Atlas may not. The Trainman 8-40CW looks promising but lacks the detail of the master line.

Competition is the only way that prices will be semi-controlled. We are lucky to have so many choices. Electronics go obsolete so fast that it is not really a driver if one is considering a lifetime hobby. Look what is happening to computers and GPS units. I cannot get my Garmin 295 fixed; the factory no longer supports the thing.

If they come out with a 5-car set of the Silver Meteor I'll jump for sure.

Atlas just needs to keep making highly detailed cars.

To tell you the truth, other than molded-on handgrabs I see little difference between the Master line and the Trainman line, but then again I have only a couple of the Trainman pieces to compare.

I hope that some of their HO stuff can find its way over to the O side of the house.

It's not just two different 0 scale companies, there are also two different business models. tt

quote:

I think Atlas is going to be very conservative about releasing new product for the next year or so--because of the economy, and also because of their situation with their builder in China.

Jeff

I think you are right about that. But the same could be said of MTH, at least in regard to American prototype O scale products.

For most of their return to O scale Atlas has been fairly conservative with their approach to new tooling. Look at how much of their product line has come from the old 1970s tooling for trainman cars, or Intermountain and P&D in the master series. The Walthers structures seem to fit the pattern of acquiring existing scale tooling and making the most of it. Unfortunately I think the lack of production engineering that went into the Intermountain and P&D products has contributed to prices that are higher than those of products designed by Atlas from the ground up.

MTH may give Atlas some tough competition on diesels. MTH could take a good chunk of the F Unit market based on price and make inroads into the geep market if they come out with a fixed pilot GP9.

MTH Proto 3 two rail steam might present a good growth opportunity for Atlas. If MTH can increase the size of the 2 rail steam market with fine running reasonably priced steam locomotives that could increase rolling stock sales for Atlas.

I see the O scale market in and era of significant change for all of the Big three. The people who have defined the market for O trains in the past 20 years, both the 3 rail nostalgiasts and the two rail model builders, are becoming a smaller and smaller part of the total train market. Lionel has gone with a big box retailer approach to expand their audience. MTH has expanded into HO and Europe. Atlas has their strength in OH and N to build off of. Both Atlas and MTH can build of off their success with smaller scales and offer 2 Rail O to the next generation, many of whom have their HO trains, as the scale for those who have the space to run O scale and reap the rewards with the most realistic operations and sound thanks to advanced electronics and larger speakers as well as the most detailed models.

Hi Bob,

I saw the new Trainman 8-40CW at Springfield, MA and it looked like a single piece of molded plastic. All of the details, screens, doors etc are molded on. They are nice for the entry level price point.

quote:

Originally posted by Bob Delbridge:
To tell you the truth, other than molded-on handgrabs I see little difference between the Master line and the Trainman line, but then again I have only a couple of the Trainman pieces to compare.

I personally do not think Atlas will have any problems. Heck, mth still produces toys. There are many prototypical problems with mth. They seem to be geared to the pizza cutter wheel gauge. Make on version of a diesel and put every paint scheme on them. The modern diesels have so many detail problems like the wrong number of steps, grills over sized or in the wrong place or there GP9 with under the plateform handrail. Their lastest genset series had wrong details per prototype. If I am going to pay $400.00+ for a loco it better be correct. Yes I know that some people don't care if their model is correct or not. That is why there is high end and low end. I personally will not buy a mth toy. Face it, mth is below par with Sunset 3rd rail, Atlas, Key, OMI, and Kohs. This just my opinion, or is it fact. Yes, I have met mikey himself, and we won't go there, because I don't want to get sued over the truth. I do think that it is good that he is doing DCC. All he now has to do is model them accurately. Then I will buy his models, but not his toys. nw2124

"Progress - either you are for it, or get out the way!"... SLR

Not all of MTH's stuff is a toy. They have produced some great models. Also you can order them with scale wheels and the scaled wheel diesels have fixed pilots. They are right up there and ahead of Atlas is some aspects. Haven't seen Atlas do a steam engine yet.

Then trying to compare MTH to key,OMI or Kohs is two different things. When is Kohs going to do an engine for less then 3,000. I will agree that those companies are very nice and well done models. But I for one can't afford those right now. With MTH getting more into 2rail is giving alot of people an affordable chance to run 2rail. I'm all for it. I just got rid of a bunch of my 3rail to order the 2rail version. And with PS3 comming out is just giving the consumer more of an option.

Just because it has scale wheels and a fixed pilot does not make it a great model. mth makes more mistakes on their locos than any other manufacturer that I know of in two rail. They are more toy like than accurately produced models. I am talking about a model done by adhering to a locomotive drawing. nw2124

"Progress - either you are for it, or get out the way!"... SLR

Dave you are correct that mth rarely comes along with a nice model and you have one of those. Excellent work by the way! Is that a phase II SD45? It's a shame about the under-the-frame handrail though, A pizza cutter wheel trademark (like Atlas Trainman Line). nw2124

"Progress - either you are for it, or get out the way!"... SLR

Well, I am in it for the long haul.

Atlas is good for Rolling stock and not so much on engines. Now, they have done good work with most all their products.

I can run either DC or DCC (The old Super Chief or using the computer via a optical interface.) and MTH makes Proto 3 available by allowing DCC to be a option.

The more products with more allowances at a better price point to accommodate a generation rediscovering O scale the better for all.

I too occasionally dream of current HO offerings such as the Proto 2-10-2 with QSI "Blown up" to 1/48 and still able to take 40 inch radius curves in two rail lol.

I am planning a possible steam purchase from Sunset, because they know how to do it right in the B&O. Maybe Atlas will release a set or never, Sunset is already moving forward quite well with the E units.
I for one say the future is bright, just a bit slow as China slowly quits being the one making it for 10 cents an hour very many, very fast.

quote:

It's a shame about the under-the-frame handrail though, A pizza cutter wheel trademark (like Atlas Trainman Line). nw2124

What is an "under-the-frame handrail"?

Seems to me I have seen pictures of an MTH Train Master that will work just fine when compared to Atlas. They will have to provide boiler bellies and proper sized cylinder blocks to make it in the scale steamer business.

If you look at the photo of the Southern SD45 you will notice the Pizza-cutter-wheel (3-rail) trade mark where the stantions are attached to a wire/bar under the locomotive frame. This is very toy like and unprototypical. The stantion should be attacted to the side of the loco not below the sideframe. This is done because 3-railer seem to "abuse" their toys, and mth carries this over to the 2-rail locos. nw2124

"Progress - either you are for it, or get out the way!"... SLR

The Norfolk Southern Genset by mth is a very good rendition of the protoype. Though it comes with proto 2, mth wiil offer proto 3 boards seperately late in 2012 so they can be upgraded. nw2124

"Progress - either you are for it, or get out the way!"... SLR

quote:

the stantions are attached to a wire/bar under the locomotive frame.

Luckly I don't model diesels, but I have never noticed THAT when watching them run on other layouts.

its not hard to replace the stanchions. should be able to keep the rail itself. Thats what I did on my Atlas GP15-1

The handrail mounting system doesn't really bother me much either. Atlas did it right by having the handrail attach to the body frame. Then on the other hand MTH delivers with some consistency. I'd rather have toy trains than no trains and at the least the toy train can be detailed and weathered to look like a semi-realistic model.

Dave's SD45


MTH



Atlas

quote:

MTH may give Atlas some tough competition on diesels. MTH could take a good chunk of the F Unit market based on price and make inroads into the geep market if they come out with a fixed pilot GP9.

This is EXACTLY why Atlas should have released the F-units as Trainman locos--lots of small production runs covering a wide variety of roadnames, and multiple runs of the popular roadnames with different numbers.

Jeff C

Michael those are some really good photos!
Thanks for sharing them.
John

I disagree with an earlier post (my opinion) on this thread about the cast on handgrabs and details on the Atlas Trainman Line of Boxcars etc.

Those were good models in the 80s when they were the only game in town in plastic - sort of ready to run.

But in my opinion, they just no longer compete with the more detailed stuff we have today. When you look at a new boxcar with individual grabs and prototype like ladder mounting parked next to an Atlas trainman with plastic shelves for grabs and ladder mounts that are huge bubbles on the side, the train man car just pales.

Again my opinion.

All I can say about the Atlas/MTH battle is that I met the owner of MTH twice and was very under impressed. I have met several from Atlas and that alone makes me a fan as they care.

Dick

Unfortunately it is all about what the factory is willing to produce today for Atlas. Trainman are easier to assemble ,more quantity and more return on investment and they are priced in line with the competition for there intended market. I doubt you will see anything new to rival the Trinity hoppers any time soon. Even the newly announced coil car, while better than Tman cars does not appear to be that impressive. Bear in mind Atlas is selling out everything they can get produced these days. They are hurt more by limited production time from Sanda Kan, most likely the reason they have available capital to buy other lines. If you are a 2 railer MTH offers some interesting Diesels that weathered and detailed look good on a scale layout as Mikes pics attest to. IMO comparing OMI,Key and Kohs handbuilt brass models to the plastics mfgs who build primarly for the 3 rail market makes no sense. Great eye candy, we would all like to own some, just not practical for most of us. Erics pics are as good as the models themselves, the Denver club is a great venue to showcase these models.

Yeah, I agree with John. Sweet photos!

quote:

Originally posted by jgtrh62:
Michael those are some really good photos!
Thanks for sharing them.
John

Nice photos and give a realistic view of training. I do enjoy the master series when I get down and look hard, however they be when running around the layout
ones eyes usually don't go for the detail but the overall scene the train blends into. Another reason I like weathering the models as to make the eye think of other things than stareing at details.
I don't care who makes those models they look good.
Phill