What is your take on the used train market?

Cars, boats   and Trains (really any toy or plaything)  Buy high sell low...stocks..mutual funds..real-estate  buy low sell high.  It's how the world works!

I was selling G gauge trains at a garden railroad meet last weekend.  I had low prices and sold every item that I brought.  I am going to the Cal-Stewart meet in Northern CA next weekend.  I hope to sell a lot of O gauge.

I think that things will sell if the price is low enough.  I do hate giving away things but that seems to be what it takes to sell used items.  On the other hand, some of the things that I am selling have been sitting under my layout for years.  I might as well convert them to any cash that I can get because it is painfully apparent that I probably will never run them or use them.

NH Joe

I recently sold my Lionel el capitan add-on cars for double or triple what I paid for them when they were new in 6 years ago.  But I can't get nearly what I paid for my Lionel PS2 hoppers new from the same time period.

Depends on the item, but some stuff is basically worthless.  (If you can only get $10 for a piece of rolling stock, I'd say toss it rather than going through the bother of selling on the internet).

Michael, my view is that things, on the Forum here at least, have been kind of slow lately.  I've seen several items listed for sale -- items that were outside of my particular interests but priced very attractively nonetheless -- and they just sat there  for days and days.    But then overall, I'd say this audience is a much "tougher crowd," maybe a more discerning train buyer to a man, than the auction-site audience.  Some of my own experiences recently as a seller would back that up.

I agree

I think one of the problems with the used toy train market is that there is so much product to choose from that people get a little numb looking at it all.

That said, when selling your trains people have to understand that unless  a buyer is emotionally attached to an item they will just as soon wait until a new item is available before they take out their wallet for anything close to retail.

I have made a profit on some items that I bought, but  they are far and few between. On the most part when I buy something it's to have fun with it.  So when I'm done playing with it I trade it for something else, or sell it, but I expect to take a loss on it regardless of it's condition.

So in short, until I figure out a way to take them with me they all remain just toys.

If you don't want it and can't sell it, perhaps give it away to someone who can use it? When i used to have a couple of tables at train shows, I would occasionally put out a few such items (plus old catalogs, small accessories, etc.) under a "Free!" sign. Boy, would that attract a crowd to my table. Never a thing left, either. And once in a while, someone would also notice something that I WAS selling and end up buying it.

I would much rather give something away then throw it away after years in a junk box. Especially  after I played with for a few years.

gg1man posted:

I would much rather give something away then throw it away after years in a junk box. Especially  after I played with for a few years.

Dave Warburton posted:

If you don't want it and can't sell it, perhaps give it away to someone who can use it? When i used to have a couple of tables at train shows, I would occasionally put out a few such items (plus old catalogs, small accessories, etc.) under a "Free!" sign. Boy, would that attract a crowd to my table. Never a thing left, either. And once in a while, someone would also notice something that I WAS selling and end up buying it.

In both these cases, you are talking about expending your own time, energy, and other resources just to find someone to take it from you for free.  Now you are truly going negative in these transactions (unless you light up some kid's face when he gets a train car for free.  Even I can't put a number/dollar on that).

Lots of stuff for sale here and elsewhere. Hopefully more younger folks are getting into this hobby than we imagine but I would think that there are more of us moving on (passing on?) which increases the used train supply.

I see great deals here that like Mike mentioned above, often sit here for several days until they disappear to the back pages unsold.  

If you're looking for something special - have patience, it will show up!

Selling relatively recent (<20 years old) Lionel and MicroTrains N gauge on the internet, I'd say that the used market is very soft and prices realized are no more than 20-50% of the original MSRP, with almost all closer to 20% than 50%.

I have always purchased non operating trains and fixed them for re sale.  I also stand behind them.  For guys who do that (not shops) we are all hearing "what is the bottom price"   People do not want to pay a fair price from someone reliable but will roll the dice and get screwed big time on fleabay.   Everyone wants to be a wheeler/dealer  and get the lowest price.  I blame the TV show American Pickers.  Everyone thinks they are Mike or Frank and want to beat you up on your price.  I smiled when they got screwed on a junk state set.  Their expert told them only a few  of those sets exist.  Experts exist in Iowa and I do not know where they got that guy.

I have always considered the OGR Forum the best place to deal on used trains.

For me, it really isn't worth even considering anymore. I have only command control engines and haven't had the best experiences in the used market. For another $100-$200 more (give or take) I would much rather have a new item with a full warranty that you know has not been abused. Rolling stock may be of slightly more interest, but I no longer go looking for anything used.

Edit: After seeing Marty's post above, I would consider something used that Marty F, GRJ, GGG and maybe some others here had thoroughly gone through and repaired. I trust their work, they are very reputable repair folks. I think this would as good as purchasing a new item.  

I have to say that it has been my observation that the for sale value of used modern, post-war and pre-war trains seems to depend on the venue in which they are offered.  I watch and participate on E-Bay, I watch and participate on our Buy/sell forum and I also watch and participate in various internet auctions.  While things may be slow here and on E-Bay they certainly aren't slow on the auction sites.  Everything goes and most of it goes above what the auction site quotes as the estimated value of the piece.  A lot of the stuff is in great condition but some of it is not and it still goes for a high price.  Also, it should be taken into consideration that these auction sites demand a buyer's premium which is as high as 19% but despite that fact the bidding is fast and furious and I would dare say the items are going for a heck of a lot more than 20% of their original purchase price.  Bottom line, from my perspective if you are selling them at the right place they will not sit.       

RTR12, you are a very smart man.   I only run command and have no need for the old stuff.  Unless a person has train friend resources, buying new is the smart move.  I tell my friends when you get it new, operate it and if you have an issue you can get warranty or larger dealers will give you a new one to keep you as a happy customer.  

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

RTR12, you are a very smart man.   I only run command and have no need for the old stuff.  Unless a person has train friend resources, buying new is the smart move.  I tell my friends when you get it new, operate it and if you have an issue you can get warranty or larger dealers will give you a new one to keep you as a happy customer.  

Thanks Marty, I revised my above post. I would trust something from you, GRJ or GGG (maybe others). You all have very good reputations and know what you are doing with these trains and stand behind your work. I think that is just as good as new and with a warranty.

I was at our local Greenberg show today, fewer dealers, a bit thin crowd and after two hours the dealers were ready to bargain.  Bad weather didn't keep people away so it would be fun to go tomorrow but I have other plans. It is like any other market-seemed a bit slow but there were a lot of high priced items, I thought. I almost came home without spending any money but that is silly so I bought three more locos I don't need. this in the post war market and there was a bunch of newer items that I didn't look at.  I know dealers want to make a buck and have expenses but they are selling USED things and the buyer has little idea what he is getting. I don't and won't eBay but do buy a lot now off the forum. If I was a seller, I think I would have a few or more items that are getting dusty and use them as a loss leader. A seller said to me as we  bargained over an engine,"I want to sell these things, not marry them!". A funny time-the market looks sft but some sky high prices too.

I did my part to support the used market- some stuff I wanted was only available there. 

If you're buying, prices are too high.

if you're selling, prices are too low.

Down here in southern Missisippi there is no used train market, however when I 

attended the Foley, Alabama train show I was quite surprised at how much and how low the prices were for all toy train gauges, esp. O.

I asked around and found that so many folks retire to the south and down size

so they have to sell their collections.

I have purchased on that EBay place and got what I wanted and it worked until 

either it or me wore out. Now it's one of those 'Queens' you guys mention from time to time. Nice to look at, and something to dust, but I had my fun and am satisfied.

I prefer to not buy used locomotives unless I know the engine and owner. I purchased an MTH engine on the forum and wasn't happy with it. I guess the fact that it was sent back to MTH for repair should've been a red flag. Now I only purchase new engines. Anything else I'll consider used but not abused. 

I've not had any luck selling the items I've had listed on the forum. No, I'm not going to give them away but I also think I'm asking fair prices. Sometimes you win, sometimes you wait! 

I see the market on Postwar opening up big time in current years. As the older folks die off and the popularity of "electronic" trains increases, more and more people will likely want the latest and greatest while the Postwar market dries up. 

The best place with out a doubt is Ebay. You have the whole world looking on your auction.

The bottom dropped out of the hobby, used train market several years back and hasn't changed. There are currently more trains available than buyers. The market is flooded with trains and the supply is larger than the demand because the demographic of those that buy the trains is rapidly changing.

Its a great time for the buyer as bargains abound. I was at a train show today and it was very crowded. The prices of used trains were generally very reasonable but I noticed very few people buying. Just my observation.

eBay is a hit and miss, got some great deals and some real very bad deals as well. I try to stay away from it now unless someone with a great reputation. I also will buy from the forum and someone with a good or great reputation. I really looking forward to go to the York meet in April. PS I just sold most of my HO train collection  via train show, LHS and eBay.  I also redirected and right sized my O scale using the same method. 

Maybe more people are getting like me.....I have realized that I have trains that I haven't run in years, and, have been running and enjoying them instead of getting new ones....

I did pull the trigger recently on 3 weaver Army flats offered on the Buy/Sell board....I want to increase the length of my Army train which is a big hit at our modular set up.....

Ordered nothing from the last 2 Lionel & MTH catalogs.....

Peter

Most of the people I know want the latest and greatest trains.   I think postwar is dead.  I know a fairly large number of train guys and only a few that still chase postwar.   The dealers that sell new trains can make a living.  If I was younger, I would want a train store.

I help another forum member sell at North Carolina TCA and other train shows. We cannot hardly sell post war trains anymore. For most of the trains that are being sold at shows prices have dropped way off. A few guys still think their trains are worth what they were in the 80's. I have a large post war collection myself and I pretty much quit buying anymore. Now I wonder if I can ever sell it off and make anything without losing too much. I agree post war is a dead player.

Rob

It's pretty weak from my own experience, unless you're willing to give stuff away.  

Then there was the guy at the Greenberg show today, with 80's prices on postwar ($1500 for a CNJ Train Master)- didn't see one person buying from him.  People looked and moved on.

It is a good time for someone who is a post war collector.  Right now the new Legacy seems to be a hot ticket.

Both Oldrob and Marty are correct with the Postwar.  Prewar is also pretty much in the same boat as Postwar. I agree that the modern O with all the up to date features are at a premier price.  Just look around at eBay and run a search and everything without the up to date features is not moving. Look at the larger train stores which are web based are try to move there old inventory and nothing is moving.

I just bought an Atlas F3 with TMCC off Ebay for $190, the seller said the sound did not work.

Turned out to be a blown speaker, but in the process of fixing that I found a motor mounting screw down inside the gearing and 3 stripped out screw holes all on 1 truck.  All were fixed and it runs and sounds great.

I've gotten what I think are great deals on old Williams brass steam engines the past couple of years, but the prices on them now can be all over the place.  Today there are 3 Williams brass N&S 4-8-4 J 611 engines, Buy Now prices of 2 are $550 and 1 is $390, the 2 at $550 have been on there for months if not years.

I've been looking for a 4-8-2 that has spoked, see-thru drivers and not blanked off (non-see thru) or Boxpok drivers.  The prices are ridiculous for the type of 4-8-2 I want.

The only train shows I've been to are the Greenberg and World's Greatest Hobby shows and from what I've seen are vendors dragging the same old pieces to show after show asking the same, high price.

I still try to go to these shows (got one coming to Hampton next month) but I find better deals on Ebay.

I can speak as a buyer and not a seller. I still consider ourselves getting into the hobby. We hit up the local train shows, and of course, all of the wonderful forumites I've met from purchasing on here and one or two of our LHS that have used gear. We went to the Parma show today and I spent maybe 50 bucks on some rolling stock, parts, and a few other things? My brother picked up a scout set for my nephew for 45, my dad.. well he went a bit nuts and spent like 300 on stuff.

For our needs the 5-20 range is perfect and I will usually buy it then. I don't mind if the cars are a bit dinged up or "well loved" my 3 year old is going to be helping me run the railroad. As long as they roll and are a bit serviceable that is good for us. I'd rather have PW or MPC stuff, not much to go wrong on them, especially MPC rolling stock.

I guess as a "Younger" buyer what I have to consider is this: With a 500 dollar student loan payment a month, and 800 in day care plus my wife's student loans, mortgage, etc, can I afford that 80 dollar new or used box car or will a 5-10 dollar used purchase give the same enjoyment and play value for my little boy?

The used market is the only reason I am able to share this hobby with my son. Without the amazing people on here who I've met and corresponded with while purchasing I wouldn't have much of anything. I've gotten advice, good quality used stuff, good prices, and a lot of smiles. I look at the used section every day on here and look for items that are going to work with our budget.

So, anyways, thank you to all who are selling used gear, you've got at least one person looking and thank you to all who have helped out Henry, Ollie, and I.

Side note, if anyone is just going to throw out old stuff, feel free to send our way, I've got two little boys who love trains. ;-)

I think the market is down.  I recently found a shop in St. Louis that sells used trains at less than Ebay prices.  The guy buys from estate sales after the collector dies and resells them in his tiny shop.  He is overflowing with trains from so many collectors passing on.  I think the supply of used trains will continue to expand as more collectors die.  Demographics I suppose.  The following generations are all smaller.  So I expect prices to stay low.  Hopefully not so low that old trains just get thrown away!  But as a buyer with a small budget I am very happy. 

Honestly, with my small mid-life budget, if my participation in the toy train hobby was only through new trains I would be priced out of the hobby.  The lull in the used market might allow the entry of the future hobby's new blood.

Nathan

Thank you all for the interesting and informative replies. I really appreciate the response.

Great time to be a buyer, not so great to be a seller. I am one who does not need to have the latest and greatest. I would rather find something older and fix it up to  look and perform as well or better that what is being offered today for a fraction of the cost.

Pete

I think that the market for used trains is soft as some folks mentioned above. I was at the Allentown train meet today. Some sellers had things priced to sell and others didn't. One guy had a bunch of Atlas Trainman and Master rolling stock for $25 to $50 with no obvious damage but no boxes. I didn't have much money so all I bought was a Trainman gondola for $25. The only thing wrong with it is it is dusty. I saw MTH Premier PS1 CNJ Blue comet steam locomotive for $390. I felt that was a little high for PS1. Not outrageous but a little high. Last year I saw a PS1 Premier NYC Hudson for $280. I am still kicking myself for not buying that one. One guy had a very old 2 rail hopper. It looked terrible and he wanted $150 for it. No way I am spending a $150 on something that looks that bad--I don't care if it is brass. (It might have been. I don't know. I didn't ask)

I think a lot of stuff on eBay is people fishing. They are selling something that they know is worth X amount of dollars and putting a minimum price on it on eBay that is way more than it is worth. I think they aim to catch someone who doesn't know the market or who can't get to the market and get them to overpay for the item. For instance just today I saw an Atlas (Roco from the '70s) stock car (No way I would pay more than $10 for one of these at a show) for $10. I thought about it and it was a fair price but I really don't need another project right now as I would have to get trucks with metal wheels and install Kadees. Add the cost of trucks and couplers and I am almost at the cost of a used Trainman car. So I passed on it. I was just surfing eBay today when I got home and I saw the same exact car for $19 plus shipping. To me that is way over priced.

Sometimes deals can be found on eBay. But you really have to be streetwise so to speak. Recently, I saw a MTH Premier PS1 SP GP38-2 for $79.95. I don't remember exactly how the seller described it but I read through the lines of what the seller said and I was fairly certain that this locomotives didn't run at all. But I didn't care because I planned to gut the electronics and convert it to 2 rail. I meant to bid on it but I forgot all about it and someone else got it for $80. I hope that person knew what they were doing and were not one of the people that Marty described.

I think the reason why the used train market is soft is because there are a lot of used trains out there from guys who have bought newer stuff and are getting rid of their old stuff or from guys who have passed on and their collections are sold. So you have a lot of trains in the market but less buyers. Therefore the buyers can afford to be more picky. Then to make sales some sellers lower their prices. In some rare occurrences a seller will have an item so uncommon and desirable that they will make a profit on it. It happens once in a while but not often.

This is just my opinion. I'm having fun even in times like this when I don't have a lot to spend.

I think there is a lot of faulty and misinformed market analysis about the post war toy train market. If you aren't in it-don't worry about it   !

I think the opinions on this forum are more slanted toward serious collecting and serious operating.  From what I see at train shows, the sellers with postwar and good prices do very well.  I priced my stuff at or below eBay completed sales with multiple bids.  I was very happy with my sales; postwar, mpc, LTI etc.  The vast majority of buyers were not there to buy legacy version 16 or dcs ver 22.0.  They were shopping for items with value or some specific items.  The overpriced stuff stayed on the tables, as it has for the past 30yrs.  Just like other retail and secondary market places, people tend to shop for value.  

I seriously appreciate that high priced stuff at train shows cause it makes my stuff look like a bargain.  

It's funny that people expect their cars, furniture and clothes to go down in value over time or with use.  But they expect their TOY trains to go up in value endlessly.

Remember it is simply supply and demand.  Kinda like capitalism.  Is this a great country or what.

Used trains, especially postwar, have a childhood memory value that is priceless to me. You cannot duplicate those childhood experiences, sort of like your first love, you always remember your first kiss, your first Lionel.

Kindly put a mint or near mint military train on the dining room table and watch us few remaining postwar fanatics gobble it up, sort of like enjoying a powder sugar funnel cake at York.

enjoy all those NEW and OLD trains...

For all you who say postwar is dead, I have a hard time satisfying my thirst for it at local shows. More times than not when I attend local shows, I have yet to exhaust my budget for lack of supply and 80's prices. Too much HO, TMCC, DCS, and Legacy that is not in my market as a consumer.

Then there is going into some train stores and asking for postwar - it's just like walking into a car dealership today asking for standard* manual transmission vehicles. In my mind, it is only seems dead because it isn't as available.

For all you who claim postwar is dead, I can guarantee you all it won't be dead for as long as I live (and I'm young enough to likely by your child/grandchild) as it is and will remain a focus of mine.

*I actually had some sales people interpret standard as automatic or CVT because it is what comes as standard stock Next time I should ask if I can get 3 on the tree with vacuum assist.

My brother has been selling some my Dad's trains he left him this past year.There were Z,S,G and O scale trains.I was surprised at how much all the trains still held value.He got a lot less than my Dad paid back for the trains back in the 80s and 90s,but the trains sold for way more than I thought they would.He had the ambition to sell most of the items on Ebay,which he got decent prices for.Based on seeing my brother's selling experience,the train market is still alive,but you have to  be realistic on prices and deal with the Ebay listing and shipping effort for a good buck on used trains.  

It's funny that people expect their cars, furniture and clothes to go down in value over time or with use.  But they expect their TOY trains to go up in value endlessly.

The same can be said for any collectable. And for a long time the prices  of collectables, including trains, did go up.
The whole collector market is soft. You can read about the same concerns in many antique collector / dealer magazines. The problem is largely a lack of new blood. Younger people aren't interested in accumulating stuff. They don't have the money, space, or time to devote.
So what does soft really mean?
In my area, if you price your trains reasonably at the local shows they sell. I am almost always happy with my sales. Many of my fellow dealers price their stuff much higher, and bring the same stuff back and forth to all the shows, show after show. 
And Postwar is far from dead. I watch lots of stuff on EBay, the prices realized seem plenty high to me.

C W Burfle posted:

The same can be said for any collectable.
The whole collector market is soft. You can read about the same concerns in many antique collector / dealer magazines.

I need to sell off the Sarah Coventry jewelry my wife collected until her death in 2014, but I know if I try now what I'll get is nowhere near what she paid for it.  I might have to take the hit because I need the space if I want to enlarge my layout.

Speaking as a non professional seller of trains there are cost involved that you have to cover as a sell. If you go to the local show it is your time, gas, paying for the table and sale tax.   In my area the tax man comes to make sure you are collecting the sale tax and wants to see your certificate. Verses website which has it fees which are a percentage of the sale, listing, shipping and a fee on getting your funds. I was talking to an old timer from the LHS (who I  respect and is very knowledgeable) he was telling me stories that some the show/meets the best deals where made in the parking lot not at the show. And that is still true at some of the shows from what I have read. Long story short parking lot deal data does not get factored to what the going rate is for trains,  yes it is a smaller market but it is still there.

The whole collectible market has been soft here in western Pa. since the last depression, lots of shops and dealers left the business so it isn't just toy trains.  Like everything else it runs in cycles, too.  I was very glad to trade the antiques we had collected for post war Lionels because I got more value out of them. 

If you go to the local show it is your time, gas, paying for the table and sale tax.

I agree on having to factor in sales tax, and the cost of the table. For me time and gas aren't factors for local shows. I do set up at the shows to sell, but there is also a social aspect to the show. (and I often buy a few things too) Many of the table holders know each other, as well as some of the attendees, and the folks operating the display layouts.

For me, York is a different story. When I go to York as a non-table holder, all the expenses are just part of the hobby. Same goes for getting tables at York with a group of people, so we can take turns looking around and visiting. (selling isn't the primary purpose of attending)
If I was to go to York myself or with my wife specifically to sell trains, I'd want to cover all my expenses.

I don't think a lot of buyers take in to account the sellers expenses plus they usually do have to pay something for the item so what you pay isn't pure profit.  One reason if someone is liquidating a family collection it can go cheaper-sometimes. There could be regional differences too. There is an antique dealer who is a wholesaler and collects stuff around here and takes it down south to sell. He was telling a dealer and I that twin beds are a dog around here but  he  can sell them in Mississippi. Used cars and collectible cars are the same way.

There are still some hard to find items I am looking for, however I would rate the market saturated with items that are over priced. 

To me it goes up and down all year. Perfect example I bought a about 6 months ago I picked up a 1055 Texas special for about $30 including shipping. And it had a couple of cars with it. The other night I bettered than doubled my money just on the engine the next day I saw one for sale ending about the same time and listed about $20 less than I got and not a hit. It all depends a lot who is at the show/on auction site etc. Yard sales can be the same sometimes you can't get 2 cents for stuff other times you can get double there value to me it just how it falls I have made and I have lost on trains but to me the secondary market ( your original question ) is very much alive now is it better for the seller or the buyer depends on the day and whats going on I would say. 

I agree with Jdaddy - market is saturated and prices aren't reflecting it in most cases. 

I have a local used shop I frequent - they deal mainly in post war and tinplate - but they do get in modern equipment from time to time.  They had garages full and the shop stuffed at this time last year. They were blowing Weaver out for $10-15 a car.

This year inventory is completely depleted - everything in the store is mostly shelf filler from the year before.  I asked and they said they aren't getting inventory because they can't buy and sell at the current prices sellers /estates are asking. To combat it, they are stuffing shelves with die-cast which is booming for them - as soon as they sell it, there's 10 more people bringing it in. 

 

I think one of the problems with the used toy train market is that there is so much product to choose from that people get a little numb looking at it all.

I don't see this as a problem at all.  Bubbles burst and reality arrives.  Realistic prices on so much product is what will let many modelers get into and stay in the hobby. 

bmoran4 posted:

For all you who claim postwar is dead, I can guarantee you all it won't be dead for as long as I live (and I'm young enough to likely by your child/grandchild) as it is and will remain a focus of mine.

 Funny you should mention this. I've been running my postwar rolling stock for a few weeks now.  ( though I'll admit I am using modern engines to pull them , I like the features ) You have to admit the postwar rolling stock has stood the test of time, don't forget the 6464 series !   Are they scale ? are the realistic ? Who cares .... They are fun and that is what counts.

Speaking from my own experience, postwar was the way I entered into O scale world.  They are cheap and widely available and can be purchase at reasonable prices. As I grow older my taste chanced as did the O scale market and I like the Modern O scale items. I however will not purchase the engine that over thousands dollars sorry but I do not have that kind of disposal income. For those that do god bless and enjoy hobby at your level.  I always am on the look out for a good second hand PS-2 engine or freight cars  that will fit my collection and my budget.

Aldovar posted:

I can speak as a buyer and not a seller. I still consider ourselves getting into the hobby. We hit up the local train shows, and of course, all of the wonderful forumites I've met from purchasing on here and one or two of our LHS that have used gear. We went to the Parma show today and I spent maybe 50 bucks on some rolling stock, parts, and a few other things? My brother picked up a scout set for my nephew for 45, my dad.. well he went a bit nuts and spent like 300 on stuff.

For our needs the 5-20 range is perfect and I will usually buy it then. I don't mind if the cars are a bit dinged up or "well loved" my 3 year old is going to be helping me run the railroad. As long as they roll and are a bit serviceable that is good for us. I'd rather have PW or MPC stuff, not much to go wrong on them, especially MPC rolling stock.

I guess as a "Younger" buyer what I have to consider is this: With a 500 dollar student loan payment a month, and 800 in day care plus my wife's student loans, mortgage, etc, can I afford that 80 dollar new or used box car or will a 5-10 dollar used purchase give the same enjoyment and play value for my little boy?

The used market is the only reason I am able to share this hobby with my son. Without the amazing people on here who I've met and corresponded with while purchasing I wouldn't have much of anything. I've gotten advice, good quality used stuff, good prices, and a lot of smiles. I look at the used section every day on here and look for items that are going to work with our budget.

So, anyways, thank you to all who are selling used gear, you've got at least one person looking and thank you to all who have helped out Henry, Ollie, and I.

 

Side note, if anyone is just going to throw out old stuff, feel free to send our way, I've got two little boys who love trains. ;-)

 

I concur (as a fellow Clevelander). I just started paying tuition bills for my 3rd oldest, so Key Bank is getting a much bigger check from me each month than online store or LHS.  In large part, that's what drove me to stick with semi-scale. Even with shipping included, I've amassed a nice collection of $10-$25 gently-used Rugged Rails, Industrial Rail, and traditional Lionel and K-Line rolling stock to run with semi-scale TMCC and PW conventional engines. The used market has treated me well so far. I appreciate that O-Gauge has room for $200 engines and $2,000 engines.

Michael,

   Being a Tin Plate kind of runner with some Post War and modern mixed in, I find the good Tin Plate rolling stock and especially the well maintained engines, to be way over priced, even if there happens to be more Tin, at the show than in prior years.  Some of the older real nice 810 Crane Cars & original Lionel Red Cabooses, border on being priced not to sell.  It's almost like some of the vendors bring them as show pieces, and if they happen to sell one, at the way out of whack price, so be it.  Got to admit some of the vendors do have good prices on full P2 Train sets, NIB, if you have the money on hand to purchase the full sets.  Recently a Vendor at one of the Antique stores I like, has had some good deals on Tin Plate, and I will probably return again and purchase from him.  These are the kind of Tin Plate deals that are seldom still around however.  I also picked up a pristine 80's era conventional Coca Cola Train for real decent money in that same Antique store, I did have to haggle to get the price I wanted however.  I do like to horse trade now and then and I am pretty good at it. 

PCRR/Dave

For postwar, I'll only buy it if there is an emotional connection. For example, as a kid I had a Texas Special 1055, like those described above. It got tossed when we moved and I'd like to have it back.  If I saw one in decent shape for $20 - 30, I'd grab it. So if the piece has some meaning and the price is right, I'll buy. Every now and then it is fun to run my postwar stuff. It is a pleasant reminder of my childhood.

Otherwise, I prefer new equipment, which is nicely painted, runs more smoothly and does many more things. I can easily run 25 car trains behind Williams locomotives for as long as I'd like. Modern cars roll easily and track well through switches. Postwar cars have higher rolling resistance limiting the size of trains you can pull (and yes, I do oil the axles!).

To me from an operating standpoint, modern equipment is far superior. From an emotional standpoint, there's something wonderful about a 736 pulling a freight or a 2353 pulling an aluminum streamliner. A collector's standpoint would be entirely different.

Too much postwar on dealers' tables is dirty, rusty, with no price on it. Then you ask and wonder if you are getting the best price. Or you get the story about how rare and valuable the piece is. Who cares if the piece has chipped decals, scratches and may run poorly? For collectors, the piece should be in excellent condition to command the prices in the guides. For operators it should be clean and a good value. A clean piece with normal wear should not command the guide price for a like new piece, but many dealers seem to think it should and carry these pieces back and forth to show after show. My choice is not to buy; their choice is to hold out for the price they want, and that is what makes the world go around. As long as the choices are freely made it is all good. That's how a free market should work. The best sellers price items to sell and put money in their pockets, then hustle to gather new merchandise and repeat the process.

I like to run my trains, so the newer equipment does the job for me. But every now and then I do enjoy a nostalgic postwar night! When my son comes over, he always asks to run the postwar stuff, which was all we had when he was a child.

Buyers can be very fickle and unpredictable.  Guys will trip over themselves ordering the new (and overpriced) VisionLine GG-1 at $1190, yet I've had just one lone response thus far showing "casual interest" for an unblemished, Like-New, Lionel JLC GG-1 for $450.     Really??? 

Newsflash people... It ain't going any lower than that.    If it doesn't move at that price, it's staying on my roster.  

Selling trains here on the forum from time to time, I've seen my share of surprises relative to what moves quickly and what lingers for weeks -- or sometimes months.  I was very surprised that the Lionel 18" Santa Fe High-level Superliners took a few months to move.  They were as MINT as the day I bought them.  And you just don't see that kind of stuff hit the market very often, if ever.  Yet because I wasn't "giving them away", they sat for awhile until the right buyer came along.

Everybody, myself included, likes a great deal.  But sometimes I think sellers on the forum have "conditioned" buyers to behave a certain way.  

I prefer to post things at VERY fair prices.  And on occasion, I'll offer ONE price reduction as a "show special" as an extra incentive (if it sits for awhile).  But as a general rule I don't offer daily price reductions of $10-$25, because that only conditions buyers to expect yet another price reduction tomorrow.  And it more than likely sends a message that the seller needs cash quickly -- which may or may not be the case at all.  

More importantly, I don't think a $10-$20 price reduction is gonna make that much of a difference on a $500+ item, because if somebody were truly interested they could OFFER the seller that difference without "needing their permission".  I get offers for less-than-the-asking price all the time.  Sometimes I'll go for it if the offer keeps the deal in win-win territory.  Other times, I'll reject the offer if it falls into the win-lose category -- something I've needed to do on occasion, because I'm not in the market of giving stuff away.  

Yet there are days I honestly think buyers here are just WAITING for sellers to give stuff away.  And I guess that simply indicates to a large degree how much of a toy train glut exists out there on the market today.  

I agree with Mario's earlier post, when he said folks' eyes just glaze over after a certain point.

David

David,

    I agree with a lot of what you say, however regarding the JLC GG1 if it was TMCC, I would purchase her from you, I have numerous Conventional GG1's already and probably most people here on the OGR do also.  Further I think the guys purchasing the new vision line GG1's at that cost, have lost their minds completely.  Each individual has his own ideas at to what he most wants to own however and if this new high cost stuff makes them happy, so be it.  Me I have some fine L C Smith double guns that I treasure as much as my O Gauge Trains, so I try to keep the addiction on some what of a reasonable cost entity.

PCRR/Dave  

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

David,

    I agree with a lot of what you say, however regarding the JLC GG1 if it was TMCC, I would purchase her from you, I have numerous Conventional GG1's already and probably most people here on the OGR do also.  ...

Dave, the Lionel JLC GG-1's are equipped with TMCC.  They were produced in the 2007/2008 timeframe, and catalog'd with an $899 MSRP.  I will update my listing, so folks are aware of this subtlety.

David

Buyers can be very fickle and unpredictable.  Guys will trip over themselves ordering the new (and overpriced) VisionLine GG-1 at $1190, yet I've had just one lone response thus far showing "casual interest" for an unblemished, Like-New, Lionel JLC GG-1 for $450.     Really??? 

Your JLC GG-1 has no warrantee, and then there is the issue of the cost / availability of parts. What is a two year warrantee worth?

Automobiles depreciate at perhaps 10-15% per year, although it's not linear.  If trains do the same, an 8 year old locomotive might only be worth 20-30% of a new one.   Since locomotives aren't as heavily used as automobiles, figure that even 40% of what you paid 8 years ago is optimistic in the current market.  No warranty, unknown amounts of use and even accidents/abuse. Not to mention the big one: entropy.  Materials deteriorate, some faster than others.  Try selling a used or even "mint in the box" toothbrush or pair of socks to pick an extreme example or two . 

"Guys will trip over themselves ordering the new (and overpriced) VisionLine GG-1 at $1190, yet I've had just one lone response thus far showing "casual interest" for an unblemished, Like-New, Lionel JLC GG-1 for $450.     Really??? "

Apparently the market is speaking, but rather than hear the message, you seem to be becoming indignant.  Cannot imagine that makes for a pleasant Sunday.  Suggest meditation and mindfulness, acceptance of the sorrows of life, including toy train depreciation. Really.

C W Burfle posted:

... Your JLC GG-1 has no warrantee, and then there is the issue of the cost / availability of parts. What is a two year warrantee worth?

Neither do die-cast ES44's -- even if you could find a brand new one on a shelf in your LHS.   That doesn't seem to prevent folks from paying astronomical prices for them.  

Not that I need to defend my earlier post, but that's yet another example of why I stated the used market is so unpredictable about what sells quickly and what doesn't.

David

I really seem at odds with so many toy train enthusiasts.

Yes, I had Lionels as a boy, in the 1950s. Tubular track. Had some Super O when I sold everything and left toy trains.

I have zero desire to reacquire any of that stuff! Even back then I just wanted more realistic trains. I hungered after the beautiful models advertised in the magazines. Overland stuff and Walthers scale passenger cars. Of course I could afford none of it on a kid's allowance!

No conventional running, no tubular track, no postwar stuff for me.  Just doesn't interest me. Rather perplexes me that so many people love this stuff. Now we see a resurgence of tinplate . . . with sound no less???

Ah, well. Excuse me. I don't much like the Mona Lisa either. Think I'd wrap fish in it!

So you can appreciate my perplexity when I found the nostalgia guys paying as much for Lionel Budd cars from the 50s as I paid for this . . .

My experience with the used market is usually trying to buy a 3-rd Rail item, not some 1955 Lionel locomotive. It's just an entirely different mentality. Probably all old hat to most here but I am only recently returned to the toy train scene and it was really a surprise to me.

I should hve anticipated it. About ten years ago I visited some long-time friends of my late wife. They had a basement full of mostly new Lionel stuff. They wouldn't even take it out of the boxes!! "It hurts resale values!," they told me.

Landsteiner posted:

"Guys will trip over themselves ordering the new (and overpriced) VisionLine GG-1 at $1190, yet I've had just one lone response thus far showing "casual interest" for an unblemished, Like-New, Lionel JLC GG-1 for $450.     Really??? "

Apparently the market is speaking, but rather than hear the message, you seem to be becoming indignant.  Cannot imagine that makes for a pleasant Sunday.  Suggest meditation and mindfulness, acceptance of the sorrows of life, including toy train depreciation. Really.

Landsteiner, you've missed the point AGAIN!!! We're talking about the unpredictability of the used toy train market.  Good gosh, man.  You'd find fault and misinterpret somebody wishing you a Happy Birthday -- just because you don't like them.    Tough place to live.  So spare us the free psycho-babble advice.

David

"We're talking about the unpredictability of the used toy train market"

Actually, you were whimpering about how people less astute than yourself were buying the overpriced (your favorite word of the last year or so) Vision GG1 and ignoring your oh so lovely JLC GG1 which was bargain priced to your way of thinking. 

My point, reasonably apposite, is that your GG1 is perhaps not bargain priced, and that those purchasing the new GG1 may prefer the newest GG1, warranty by Lionel, and definitely not 8 years old,....a previously enjoyed GG1.  That isn't psycho-babble, it's cold hard fact.  And very much to the point of this thread.

PS--I have no opinion one way or the other about you, and I certainly don't dislike you or anyone else.  Forming opinions about people's character based upon internet discussion forums is an act of lunacy.  That said, I think you are distinctly wrong about Lionel's pricing strategies and what they mean.  It is still permissible to disagree one assumes? 

Landsteiner posted:

... Actually, you were whimpering about how people less astute than yourself were buying the overpriced (your favorite word of the last year or so) Vision GG1 and ignoring your oh so lovely JLC GG1 which was bargain priced to your way of thinking.  ...

Landsteiner, this is the last thing I'm planning to say on this issue.  But your ability to casually mis-interpret and/or represent people's comments so disrespectfully is a lesson to be learned by all folks posting here.  It's part of social media that I detest.

My comment about the JLC GG-1 (as well as the Superliners) not selling as quick as I thought they would was meant to illustrate more surprise than anything else -- especially since I've sold a few items here.  I find your representation of that comment to infer that I'm speaking in a condescending tone or talking with any level where I'm being more astute than others to be highly offensive -- not to be completely inaccurate.

Thank goodness i don't need you to speak on my behalf, but I don't appreciate you misrepresenting what I post either.  If you wish to participate in this topic, please try to do so without using terms like whimpering and condescension -- only to follow them with a friendly smiley in attempts to give you a pass as if you're being cute.

I'm as thick-skinned as the next guy here, but I also try to welcome other's opinions without being disrespectful to them.  Please don't give me cause to make an exception to that rule in you case.

David

"I also try to be respectful of other's opinions without being disrespectful to them.  "

Really? Your idea of "respectful" is to characterize another poster's opinions as "psycho-babble?"  Your choice of words in response to those who firmly disagree with you occasionally indicates you view us as fools and/or charlatans.  You are reaping what you sow.  I would humbly suggest more tolerance for the opinions of others, as well as avoiding pompous and repetitious bloviating.

Landsteiner posted:

"I also try to be respectful of other's opinions without being disrespectful to them.  "

Really? Your idea of "respectful" is to characterize another poster's opinions as "psycho-babble?"  Your choice of words in response to those who firmly disagree with you occasionally indicates you view us as fools and/or charlatans.  ...

Only in your case, Landsteiner.

Seriously though... Go back and read the post where I used that reference.  It was after you talked about meditation and sorrows of life as a suggestion for how to spend my Sunday.  It had nothing to do with your opinion on the toy train market.  So let's not mix our metaphors to suit your purpose of stirring the pot.

At this point I'm taking the advice of the person who suggested we never argue with a fool any further, lest folks have trouble determining who's who.

David

I think this topic has run its course and time to go.

I got my first Lionel train when I was 5 or 6. Dad bought it used from a local appliance store and the track and accessories were already mounted on a plywood board. Dad and I bought lots more trains (all were new because there was no ebay or OGR forum in the late 50s) until I was 13 and we decided to take the layout apart and store it. I sold everything to a Lionel dealer after I got married because I needed some money. Then when grandchildren came along I began to buy again....but 90% of it is used. There's a ton of good used trains available and since they seem to last forever I see little reason to buy new. I don't know a GP7 from a GP9 or a Prairie from a Berkshire, but my two grandchildren enjoy my trains and think they are something special to play with when at my house.

I buy used cars, used furniture, used computers and sometimes used clothing. I'm just thrifty. And, yes, the desk chair and window ac in this picture were bought used, too.

Rocky Mountaineer,

   David, don't bother to update it, you just sold it, drop me some e-mail at Pine-Creek@live.com we can work out the shipping and total cost! 

A picture here would be nice also!

LandSteiner - That sir is cold hard fact, it really is a decent deal especially if it has low miles on her.    Further stating your personal opinion is not attacking somebody.

Jim P,

   Not quite yet sir I want to purchase the TMCC  JLC GG1 and I do not care what others think, to me the cost is worth it.  I am glad this thread was started I just acquired a GG1 that I really wanted.

Thanks Michael for starting this thread!

PCRR/Dave

Terry Danks posted:

I really seem at odds with so many toy train enthusiasts.

Yes, I had Lionels as a boy, in the 1950s. Tubular track. Had some Super O when I sold everything and left toy trains.

I have zero desire to reacquire any of that stuff! Even back then I just wanted more realistic trains. I hungered after the beautiful models advertised in the magazines. Overland stuff and Walthers scale passenger cars. Of course I could afford none of it on a kid's allowance!

No conventional running, no tubular track, no postwar stuff for me.  Just doesn't interest me. Rather perplexes me that so many people love this stuff. Now we see a resurgence of tinplate . . . with sound no less???

 

And once again, we have an example of "I don't like it, so why in God's name would anyone else like it?"  

I just don't get that mentality.  At all.  I don't give a flying flip what anyone else does/enjoys, it doesn't affect me and it's none of my business.  Too much of that crap on this forum and in society in general...

Billshoff,

     Glad you are happy with all your pre-owned stuff, each to his own!

PCRR/Dave

I have  posted that I just can not pay almost a hundred dollars per boxcar.I have been buying used boxcars from local train stores.Some are from the 70/80s but they may be a bit lite.But I can add weight to them and they fit right in.As for locomotive I brought a conrail locomotive from the little choochoo.At first when I saw it I thought it was a dummy.I picked it up and saw it was no dummy it was powered.It was a williams locomotive price $30.00.So I could not turn it down.A few weeks later they had a marx 333 locomotive.I came close to buying that one but did not.Any way there are deals out there.You just have to look consider what you are willing to pay.And maybe the seller will be willing meet you half way on the price.

Since I am a car and a train nut,  I make comparisons between the two, and I do not see the vintage car market as down as it has, to me, spriraled up and out of sight over the years I have watched it.  I just think a lot of the trains are not old enough to be collectible yet, and are not valuable to the market.  The other problem is that a lot of the same prototype models are made over and over, with, and often without the latest gizmo and go-faster.  Given a choice of the GG-1 cited above, or brand new one that does everything but vote, many will choose the latest version.  (there are, I am sure, a very few who want every version of that or some other prototype that has ever been made, but they shop prices, too)  And, there is planned obsolescence....  For me, what is collectible and expected to rise in price is that which is not made any more.

Farmer_Bill posted:

If you're buying, prices are too high.

if you're selling, prices are too low.

 

 

THIS, and - if you owe somebody money they want it RIGHT NOW. If it is owed to you, well - it is being processed.

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Rocky Mountaineer,

   David, don't bother to update it, you just sold it, drop me some e-mail at Pine-Creek@live.com we can work out the shipping and total cost! 

A picture here would be nice also!

LandSteiner - That sir is cold hard fact, it really is a decent deal especially if it has low miles on her.    Further stating your personal opinion is not attacking somebody.

Jim P,

   Not quite yet sir I want to purchase the TMCC  JLC GG1 and I do not care what others think, to me the cost is worth it.  I am glad this thread was started I just acquired a GG1 that I really wanted.

Thanks Michael for starting this thread!

PCRR/Dave

You are welcome. I am glad something good came out of it. Discussion got a little heated.

Thanks for the interesting thread, Mike. I always appreciate the chance to see the perspective of others. . . especially since I'm not a collector. Because of my personal situation, I treat the hobby as a zero-sum game -  whatever I sell gives me resources to buy new things.  I also enjoy re-doing my layout theme every now and then - so that means I regularly get rid of what I have and look for 'new-to-me' items. Also I usually like odd O gauge items like Hornby tinplate and Western Hobbycraft trolleys.

My observation of the odd or rare items I'm always monitoring tallies with those who see a general softening of the market. There does not seem to be the same number of folks chasing what I am interested in than there were five or ten years ago. It also appears that the secondary market, at least online, is still influenced by the time of the year - eg there is a bit more demand for things that may end up a bit more expensive or higher priced in fall / winter versus spring and summer.

That said, I like playing with my toys - and I really love seeing them go off to a new home when I'm done with them. I personally prefer to give a buyer a great price.

These days I'm back to buying postwar, so everything is used   That being said, for the new stuff (engines)  I would be very hesitant to buy a used one.  The parts/the reliability of the electronics, etc  would be enough to deter me.  I think on the forum you have a better chance of someone standing behind what they sell compared to say eBay. While I still see people buying it, postwar & MPC prices are a shell to what they once were. Will they recover?  I doubt it.  The new stuff has 1000 features & from a detail standpoint, blows older Lionel away.  For the modern stuff I have sold, I got close to what I paid for it. The few MPC & PW items I tried to sell, you really couldn't give it away, especially the MPC. But , like it was stated before - will the 80$ boxcar give me the same enjoyment as the 18$ boxcar?  I'm in the same boat - student loans, daycare for kids, car & home payments - disposable income gets smaller & smaller.  A lot of the reason I love postwar & MPC is the emotional attachment to it - reminds me of my Pop & Uncle and being a kid, trying to find all these trains at shows, etc.  I do think the market is flooded w/ more product than people out there to buy it. The people that are really driving the market seem to be going after legacy & PS2/3 engines.  

I'll usually go $0.50 to the $1.00. Occasionally deviate if is something I really want to buy. If it comes to selling for less, I'm more inclined to just give it away.

I like the response I read somewhere that

"if you are buying trains as an investment, you are buying them for the wrong reasons".

Buy what you like and run what you like. In recent years I have watched the prices of

"postwar" trains especially, come down. When I first got into this in 1990. I so desparatly wanted a ZW

for my train board. I was NOT willing the shell out $300 for a used transformer, not knowing if it would work or not.

I now own 5 postwar ZWs. I did not pay any more than $60 for any one of them. And one I found at a rummage sale for $25.

At the shows, I have watched the price drop over the past 20 years from $300+ to $100-$150 each. I also watch some of the same dealers bring items from show to show to show, only to pack it all up and take it home. Some dealers have tried to follow the market and lower prices to move items and some dealers have left their prices at prices held from 20 years ago. In both cases, items are moving slow and prices that are from 20 years ago, go home with the dealer instead of with a buyer.

I try to encourage new train enthusiasts to talk with dealers. Most dealers are willing to negotiate, because they want to make a sale and bring new blood into the toy train market.  We all need to encourage the youth and get them OUT from behind those computer screens. Happy Hunting.

Just from what I have seen, but at the shows the prices often seem to be unrealistic, I agree that especially on postwar, the prices being asked are too high, and it looks like the guys don't sell a lot. The last greenberg show I went to, I heard two of the guys with tables talking, and they were complaining about how people didn't want to pay a 'fair' price, both were selling postwar..and while they had some nice stuff, the prices were well above what I have seen stuff sell for, not talking rare items, saw things like 1990's Lionel Engines they had priced probably double what I could get off of here or on fleabay or dealers on the net.  I think a lot of the dealers think they are going to get high prices when the market isn't there. 

I did see some modern stuff at tempting prices, if my son wasn't in college, could have gotten some good deals on PS2 MTH and the like. 

I think shipping costs are really hurting the sales of used trains. Over the last few weeks, I have been trying to sell or give away items from a small collection that I became responsible for. The shipping cost of anything train related, seems to about equal the value of the item. I have a local mailing store that can search shipping costs for any box I take in, to find the lowest cost. It seems like even a small item in a small box will cost you at least $15.00 to ship it half way across the lower 48. Sometimes it costs more to ship something than the item is worth. Example: It cost $13.00 to ship a small Lionel tank car that I gave away.

Jeff

bigkid posted:

Just from what I have seen, but at the shows the prices often seem to be unrealistic, I agree that especially on postwar, the prices being asked are too high, and it looks like the guys don't sell a lot. The last greenberg show I went to, I heard two of the guys with tables talking, and they were complaining about how people didn't want to pay a 'fair' price, both were selling postwar...

Many of the post-war dealers simply haven't changed with the times.  They're stuck in the mindset that folks think there's VALUE in a rare postwar Jersey Central FM with a maroon vs. gray roof.  Variations like that are part of the "collector's mentality" that has fallen off dramatically as many enthusiasts have evolved into operators who don't give a hoot about variations -- at least not in a sense that they're willing to pay a premium for them.

As for the post-war trains in average to poor condition... I'm not sure there was ever a sizable market for those.

David

 They're stuck in the mindset that folks think there's VALUE in a rare postwar Jersey Central FM with a maroon vs. gray roof.  Variations like that are part of the "collector's mentality" that has fallen off dramatically as many enthusiasts have evolved into operators who don't give a hoot about variations -- at least not in a sense that they're willing to pay a premium for them.


There are still folks who care about variations, and assign higher values to certain ones. They don't attend every show, and if they participate here (probably don't) they probably keep it to themselves because of the ridicule they'd receive.
That written, I'll agree that the market is shrinking, and there are fewer people interested in such things. Many of them already have those "rare" variations, so the demand certainly is low.

I think that a lot of people are missing the thought that many of the folks setting up a train shows are not dealers nor are they running a business. They are hobbyists looking to sell off some stuff. They don't need the money to pay the bills or be able to buy dinner. Or even to be able to afford their next train fix.  So they set the price where they feel it should be, and don't care whether they sell the item or not.

If you don't sell anything, you cannot have "sellers remorse".

C W Burfle posted:

 ...

If you don't sell anything, you cannot have "sellers remorse".

True...  But I find just packing the stuff once to ship it is a lot of work, so I can only imagine the effort to pack and unpack the same items over and over again must get old pretty quickly with nothing to show for their efforts. 

C W Burfle posted:

 They're stuck in the mindset that folks think there's VALUE in a rare postwar Jersey Central FM with a maroon vs. gray roof.  Variations like that are part of the "collector's mentality" that has fallen off dramatically as many enthusiasts have evolved into operators who don't give a hoot about variations -- at least not in a sense that they're willing to pay a premium for them.


There are still folks who care about variations, and assign higher values to certain ones. They don't attend every show, and if they participate here (probably don't) they probably keep it to themselves because of the ridicule they'd receive.
That written, I'll agree that the market is shrinking, and there are fewer people interested in such things. Many of them already have those "rare" variations, so the demand certainly is low.

I think that a lot of people are missing the thought that many of the folks setting up a train shows are not dealers nor are they running a business. They are hobbyists looking to sell off some stuff. They don't need the money to pay the bills or be able to buy dinner. Or even to be able to afford their next train fix.  So they set the price where they feel it should be, and don't care whether they sell the item or not.

If you don't sell anything, you cannot have "sellers remorse".

For my part,  don't care, I just walk by when the prices are crazy. However, a lot of these guys also spend a lot of time complaining and moaning that buyers are cheap, don't want to buy their stuff. If they want to go from show to show, pay the table fee, and not sell anything, it doesn't bother me, but I have heard these guys in person, and online, moaning and complaining about the people at the shows not willing to buy their stuff...

As far as those willing to pay more for something they value, that is their right, I have bought things with personal meaning where I likely paid too much, there is nothing to make fun of there. However, I also have seen where they overpaid for something, thinking they have a treasure that they think they bought cheap, find out they overpaid, then blame everyone else because they don't cherish their 'treasure'. 

C W Burfle posted:

So they set the price where they feel it should be, and don't care whether they sell the item or not.

...The last part of that sentence screams of begging the question as to why even bother attempting to sell in the first place.

Gentlemen,

    I think vendors run the full spectrum, as David says some will not change, others wheel and deal all the time.  I agree with Popi open your mouth and talk to the individual Vendors, you will be able to tell right away if they are open to a deal, or if they are set in stone.  However you also must use your head, if you are trying to negotiate price.  In my latest purchase from Rocky Mountaineer (David), I decided not to make a counter offer on the Scale JLC TMC GG1, because I honestly believe David was already at his lowest sale price.   IMO the Scale TMCC Brunswick Green PRR one Striper with minimal hours was worth even more money than David was actually asking, so I did not have my heart in trying to negotiate the price down any further.  Further I do a lot of horse trading especially with the Tin Plate Vendors, definitely ask negotiate if you can.

PCRR/Dave

Michael Hokkanen posted:

What is your opinion of how well things are selling on the used train market? I have seen a lot of items sitting and not moving both here and elsewhere. I realize that used train cars, accessories, and other things are only worth a fraction of their new price. But, you can only go so low. Please do not view this as an individual complaint I am just curious. Thanks very much for any opinions that you would care to express. I really appreciate it.

Dismal.... I've been selling my collections now for several years. My experience has been, no one wants to pay what an item is worth. They want it for pennies on the dollar not matter how nice it is. Things will eventually sell if your patient and flexible with your prices and dealings. A lot of things will sit and not sell show after show or auction listing after listing.

Tin

LionelTin posted:

no one wants to pay what an item is worth. They want it for pennies on the dollar not matter how nice it is.

 

Publilius Syrus wrote: "Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it".

The last part of that sentence screams of begging the question as to why even bother attempting to sell in the first place.

To thin the herd and make room for something else.

C W Burfle posted:

 They're stuck in the mindset that folks think there's VALUE in a rare postwar Jersey Central FM with a maroon vs. gray roof.  Variations like that are part of the "collector's mentality" that has fallen off dramatically as many enthusiasts have evolved into operators who don't give a hoot about variations -- at least not in a sense that they're willing to pay a premium for them.


There are still folks who care about variations, and assign higher values to certain ones. They don't attend every show, and if they participate here (probably don't) they probably keep it to themselves because of the ridicule they'd receive.
That written, I'll agree that the market is shrinking, and there are fewer people interested in such things. Many of them already have those "rare" variations, so the demand certainly is low.

I think that a lot of people are missing the thought that many of the folks setting up a train shows are not dealers nor are they running a business. They are hobbyists looking to sell off some stuff. They don't need the money to pay the bills or be able to buy dinner. Or even to be able to afford their next train fix.  So they set the price where they feel it should be, and don't care whether they sell the item or not.

If you don't sell anything, you cannot have "sellers remorse".

"...The last part of that sentence screams of begging the question as to why even bother attempting to sell in the first place." --posted by John Korling.

These two posts got me thinking. I think C.W. Burfle has got something here. Maybe the dealers/hobbyists (and obviously it isn't every dealer at these shows) that don't seem to mind taking the trains home and back again to the next show do it for several reasons. Assuming that they don't need the money which is entirely possible, maybe they do it to hang out and socialize with their friends, get away from the wife or the in-laws for a weekend, go out to dinner, and overall maybe just maybe they have a good time doing it. Either that or perhaps they are stubborn and will wait until they get their price on an item but surely any logical person would add up all the costs of attending multiple train shows such as gas, tolls (if any), food, cost for the table and their own personal labor and time in setting up their table and loading and unloading their car.

One time I was at Raceway Park in Englishtown, NJ for their automotive swap meet. A guy had a 1/18 scale Barracuda I wanted to buy. It was in nice condition but it had no box. I asked how much it was and the guy was actually kind of annoyed at me just for asking. It was like I was bothering him. He and a bunch of his friends were sitting around a table talking. He said, "$30". I said would you take $25? I felt that was fair offer since there was no box and I don't feel like I was beating him up. He refused right away and I walked away. He obviously didn't care if he made a sale or not. Some people are stubborn and don't care what the market is for something (I had bought a similar 1/18 with no box at an earlier show for $20). They have to get their price no matter what yet I always get the feeling that if they were buying from me whatever price I ask for something will always be too high. Was he a guy who goes to shows to hang out and socialize with his friends or someone who is stubborn and won't sell anything unless he gets his price? I don't know but perhaps it is a little of both?

C W Burfle posted:

The last part of that sentence screams of begging the question as to why even bother attempting to sell in the first place.

To thin the herd and make room for something else.

But if they, as you stated, don't care whether they sell it or not, then it makes that premise kind of moot.

But if they, as you stated, don't care whether they sell it or not, then it makes that premise kind of moot.

Sorry, I am not going to get into a debate on the issue.

For many collectors, selling is part of the hobby, regardless of whether the income is needed.

If the market is dead and the trains aren't desirable, then why are so many people concerned about these sellers asking high prices and bringing their stuff back and forth show after show?

When I see something I like on a table, and the price is too high I might make an offer. It depends on how far apart we are, and whether I know the table holder. If we make a deal... great!. If not..... another will come along. There aren't too many truly rare things in the world of train collecting.

When I am selling, I price my stuff to sell. Still, I am always willing to listen to an offer that is made politely. Sometimes a deal is made, other times not.

Consider this.  Some folks may actually enjoy going to a train show with their premium priced stuff, sharing their grousing and "in my day, etc." complaints with their buddies and anyone else who will listen,  and then taking their unsold treasures home where they are truly appreciated.  Never underestimate the pleasure of misery shared,  nor of the potential feelings of superiority over the rest of the world who just don't understand "how it should be" .  It's a privilege of being on downhill side of 60 or so from what I've seen (I'm there too!).

I've been going to train shows since the early 90's to search for used trains & parts.  I enjoy the wheeling & dealing, BUT rarely will offer less than 25% of a dealers asking price.  Most often, only 10%.  But I also know a lot of the dealers by sight and have friends who stand behind their stuff, even offering to send an engine out to Lionel for repairs.  If it's priced fairly it sells.  Being new to buying here on the forum, the biggest killer that I see are the shipping charges.  Even if a seller was willing to take something back, you're are still out $$$.  I recently made a small purchase on the Forum and shipping was 25% of the items value.  

Excellent reading all. Again I thank you. Lots of headsey stuff discussed here. I sent my York app in a little while back. I always love looking at everybody's stuff. Now I am kind of second guessing myself. Additionally, as my new layout is being built I am predicting lots of left- over rolling stock will be stored and not run. What to do with this stuff? Keep it on the floor in boxes? Probably so as I can't seem to sell much used stuff. If I were truly starting this hobby as a beginner I would now not  leap in to it so boldly and buy so much stuff. And what I have is peanuts compared with what I see some of you out there have. Maybe the lesson is that "He who died with the most unused toys - loses!" 

Yes the prices are soft - In fact, I see that O gauge is taking on the same price pressure of the old HO and N sets of our youth.  You buy it for a high price and sell it for a low price.  Doesn't matter if it is new in the box.  Your Protosound or Lionel electronics lose value when there is no warranty.  The cost of an out of warranty repair on these sound systems can cost more than the diesel cost to begin with.  The hobby is becoming consumable (no longer investible) - Run your trains.

I bought tons of trains during the 1990s. All those remade Lionel things... Paying $45-55 dollars.  I have had them on ebay at $19 and no one wants them STILL new and never used MINT....  My goal is to liquidate things and only keep what I run or will run.... no more pile of unused trains under the table.

When I do sell it for $19, and decide a year from now I want it again new and MINT, I will just go to a train show and buy a new mint one again for $19.

I learned this watching the trains over the years:  I no longer buy anything the year it comes out.  I wait a couple of years and get it for LOTS less

Maybe the lesson is that "He who died with the most unused toys - loses!" 

As long as you didn't spend money that should have been used elsewhere, then I don't think so.
If you purchased it you must have wanted it, received some pleasure from the purchase, and from knowing that you own it. Isn't that what spending discretionary funds is all about?

As Matt has mentioned, sometime, somehow, in the past 20-30 years or so it sure seems to me that shipping charges went through the roof! Getting a small package through the mail was never a big deal. Now, it often costs more to ship than the item costs! Last year I ordered a lot of WS inlines and risers through the mail. Bulky but light as a feather. Shipping costs were just staggering from the on-line seller! ($600 dollars????!!!) I called, thinking it had to be a mistake. He figured out how his software was coming up with that figure. We got it down to a little more than $100! Still, for some foam?????? We are not talking about a cubic meter here either!!

This was from the US to Canada, BTW. Via USPS.

Shipping now has to be carefully considered on any purchase, new or used! Don't get me started on ebay's global shipping program!

I see many items on the used market that interest me . . . but shipping costs kill the deal. From my perspective, high shipping costs play a significant role in depressing prices for used stuff, ESPECIALLY the small stuff! In fact, it kills interest in the entire market! Years ago I sold my CDs and DVDs through the mail. Shipping, which used to be a dollar or so, now makes it impossible to sell these things through the mail at all!

With my conventional O27/O31 focus, I’m delighted at the prices and variety. The secondary market is bursting with like-new products that I’m happy to embrace. This is a golden age for being able to get products that work for you and your layout, regardless of your focus.

eBay is the place to be… Research who you buy from, limit who can buy from you, and take an active role in ensuring the transaction completes promptly and properly, and you won't have any problems. YOU are in control of who you purchase from and sell to. If an auction has blurry pictures, vague descriptions, or something feels shady, just move on.

I do always enjoy reading about the supposed demise of postwar trains. As I’ve said before, I have a ’65 Mustang, and nobody has ever suggested I should upgrade to a "better" new one.  This is the world's greatest hobby, and it's the best time to be in it.  I'd like to think we could all agree on that, anyway! 

Here.

Got tired of the BS on eBay.

Gentlemen,

Shipping Cost, you just pushed the right button with me.

    One of my pet peeves is the way some businesses & individuals use shipping costs to actually up the prices of what ever they are selling. I have often wondered if there is not some way to stop this fraudulent selling practice.  Many times I pay the UPS cost when I purchase an item, then the item is put in the USPS snail mail, that takes 10 days to be derived to me, when I have payed for UPS Ground.  Further when I order anything now, via UPS, I make a note on the shipping contract, that the item must be delivered to my front door, by the UPS Carrier, and not be dropped in USPS.  I believe if I pay for a package to be delivered in a certain manner, it should be delivered the way.  Recently I purchase a Z4K Remote Commander Receiver, now this item is a very light 4"x 4" piece of electrical gear.  In order to purchase this item, I had to agree to a .050 handling fee & a $10.29 Shipping cost, supposedly by UPS,  I am waiting to see if the item actually arrives USPS, for the $3.00 actual cost.

PCRR/Dave

Look at "actually sold" listings on ebay for MPC boxcars basically "like new in box".  $7 or $8 sold price plus $9 to ship.  I don't understand why the sellers even bother?  For $7, it wouldn't be worth my time to take it to the post office.  I would just chuck it in the garbage and try to take a lesson learned from it.

Terry Danks posted:

...

Shipping now has to be carefully considered on any purchase, new or used! ...

I see many items on the used market that interest me . . . but shipping costs kill the deal.   ...

Terry, so true.  I recently made a huge purchase of ScaleTrax items because the dealer was blowing out his inventory of toy train items that were more than 2 years old.  So I struck gold with my ScaleTrax purchase.  The sub-total BEFORE shipping was the "good news".  The grand total AFTER shipping was the "bad news".    I was almost thinking of driving down to southern Maryland myself to pick up the goods!  

Having said that though, I really think what we're seeing in terms of shipping costs today has more to do with the fact that shipping companies now realize the key/important role they're playing in EVERYONE's business model.  Conversely, folks using  the shipping company services realize the strategic importance of shipping in today's businesses as well.

Think about our little corner of the world in toy train land.  40 years ago, Charles Ro was one of the "few" big-name national, mail-order Lionel dealers.  Charlie would have a huge booth at the Allentown train show back then (he doesn't anymore), and I'd think, "Hey, there's the guy who runs an 8-page advertisement spread every month in the toy train magazines.  And they're right here in Allentown today!"  Fast-forward to 2016... when there are MANY more "mail-order" Lionel dealers clamoring for our business... and it largely centers around the fact that the shipping companies have leveled the playing field for ALL dealers in the eyes of the consumer.   We can pick up the phone and order product from any of several dealers now.  Or order directly from their website (if you prefer not to talk with anybody).  And within a day or two, your stuff is sitting on your doorstep without you taking your car out of the garage.    So the shipping companies have essentially "erased the fact" (in our minds, anyway) that those dealers are hundreds of -- or even over a thousand -- miles away from us and the LHS.

As the saying goes... There's no free lunch in life.  We're definitely paying the price for certain conveniences today.

David

Regarding shipping, I also strongly suspect that pricing is strongly skewed in favor of "wholesale" shippers. Plenty of free shipping on any sort of item from Amazon and other extremely large outfits.

PLCProf posted:

Regarding shipping, I also strongly suspect that pricing is strongly skewed in favor of "wholesale" shippers. Plenty of free shipping on any sort of item from Amazon and other extremely large outfits.

I don't really think the shipping is free. I just think it's buried in the cost of the product.

Michael Hokkanen posted:

PLCProf posted:

Regarding shipping, I also strongly suspect that pricing is strongly skewed in favor of "wholesale" shippers. Plenty of free shipping on any sort of item from Amazon and other extremely large outfits.

I don't really think the shipping is free. I just think it's buried in the cost of the product.

Yes, of course, but the cost needs to be small enough that it can be buried!

Michael Hokkanen posted:

PLCProf posted:

Regarding shipping, I also strongly suspect that pricing is strongly skewed in favor of "wholesale" shippers. Plenty of free shipping on any sort of item from Amazon and other extremely large outfits.

I don't really think the shipping is free. I just think it's buried in the cost of the product.

I would respectfully disagree and believe that PLCPof has a point. 

I believe that when my employer ships via UPS, they are billed at somewhere around 1/3 of what the 'retail' UPS price would be.

Another example is that last week I ordered a new rear step bumper for my old truck on eBay last week.  Cost was $200 with FREE shipping.  Bumper arrived in two days (Illinois to Maryland) via FedEx.  Couldn't have been much shipping cost built into the price as the local junk also wanted $200 for a used one.

Yet, when I try to ship a small box at the post office, it often costs me $10 - $15.

Jim

Michael,

   I definitely agree, even if the shipping contract allows of a certain amount of goods to be moved for a low cost or even for what is noted as free, the business is still paying for the over all shipping contract.  There definitely is no such thing, as a Free Lunch.  Lots of hidden costs in all kinds business, especially in the shipping business.

JD-Train,

   That business probably has a shipping contract and pays a certain flat rate cost yearly for their shipping, no matter what they ship, and then advertises to customers, that they get free shipping, the shipping is definitely not free.

PCRR/Dave

jd-train posted:

...

I believe that when my employer ships via UPS, they are billed at somewhere around 1/3 of what the 'retail' UPS price would be.

...

This is quite common when the service costs are "value based" (i.e., think in terms of what the market is willing to bear) vs. a price reflecting actual expenses incurred by the provider.  In the former pricing model, there's more headroom to move on price -- especially for a customer who wants to negotiate since he's using the shipper's services regularly and in high volume.  When you and I walk up to the UPS, Fed-Ex or USPS counter, they view us as a once and done transaction.  No leverage to get a better price. 

David

I help run a train show locally (non-profit on our part).  I rarely buy anything to resell these days, so I'm basically thinning the herd.  I don't mind if someone makes a reasonable offer on my items, but asking for 40 or more percent off is pretty rude.  I don't bother countering - I don't sell junk, and I'm not running a yard sale.

For the other two gentlemen and me running the show it's a social event - I don't mind loading tubs back up as long as I have a good time and other vendors enjoy themselves.  I'm not making a living selling toys, so my perspective is different than a number of folks who set up.  I don't have to worry about driving 3 hours, pay for a hotel and meals, and need to cover those costs as well as making enough to pay for the trains being resold (and make a profit as well).  Different people have different reasons for selling - motivations vary, needs are different - that may be why some sellers never seem to move items - the need/motivation to sell are unique.

MTN posted:

I help run a train show locally (non-profit on our part).  I rarely buy anything to resell these days, so I'm basically thinning the herd.  I don't mind if someone makes a reasonable offer on my items, but asking for 40 or more percent off is pretty rude.  I don't bother countering - I don't sell junk, and I'm not running a yard sale.

For the other two gentlemen and me running the show it's a social event - I don't mind loading tubs back up as long as I have a good time and other vendors enjoy themselves.  I'm not making a living selling toys, so my perspective is different than a number of folks who set up.  I don't have to worry about driving 3 hours, pay for a hotel and meals, and need to cover those costs as well as making enough to pay for the trains being resold (and make a profit as well).  Different people have different reasons for selling - motivations vary, needs are different - that may be why some sellers never seem to move items - the need/motivation to sell are unique.

Yes indeed! I have some other hobbies that run shows and meets and fests and, in all honesty, at least half the "Sellers" use the event as an excuse to, uh, "swap tales," to be polite about it. Nothing wrong with that. That is why they are called "meets."  

Only thing that bothers me is when I actually want to buy something,  I often feel guilty interrupting the seller's speech about his gall bladder operation or his hip replacement. Of course, half the time the seller's buddies are jabbering away directly in front of his table, so potential buyers can't see anything anyway! 

On the rare events when I do sell my goal is to take NOTHING back home; if my stuff was really valuable somebody would have bought it long ago. I take what I know will sell and plan on accepting lowballs on the rest!

Dave,  I would totally agree that nothing is shipped for free.   Personally, as a consumer, I always fold that cost of shipping into the sales price as both combined is what it cost to get the item into my hands.  But, a large volume company, usually as part of a contract, gets a tremendous discount for shipping.

Jim

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Many of the post-war dealers simply haven't changed with the times.  They're stuck in the mindset that folks think there's VALUE in a rare postwar Jersey Central FM with a maroon vs. gray roof.  Variations like that are part of the "collector's mentality" that has fallen off dramatically as many enthusiasts have evolved into operators who don't give a hoot about variations -- at least not in a sense that they're willing to pay a premium for them.

As for the post-war trains in average to poor condition... I'm not sure there was ever a sizable market for those.

David

A Jersey Central FM with a maroon or gray roof...now that would be a rare item!

Bob

CNJ 3676 posted:

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Many of the post-war dealers simply haven't changed with the times.  They're stuck in the mindset that folks think there's VALUE in a rare postwar Jersey Central FM with a maroon vs. gray roof.  Variations like that are part of the "collector's mentality" that has fallen off dramatically as many enthusiasts have evolved into operators who don't give a hoot about variations -- at least not in a sense that they're willing to pay a premium for them.

As for the post-war trains in average to poor condition... I'm not sure there was ever a sizable market for those.

David

A Jersey Central FM with a maroon or gray roof...now that would be a rare item!

Bob

nice catch!

bostonpete posted:

CNJ 3676 posted:

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Many of the post-war dealers simply haven't changed with the times.  They're stuck in the mindset that folks think there's VALUE in a rare postwar Jersey Central FM with a maroon vs. gray roof.  Variations like that are part of the "collector's mentality" that has fallen off dramatically as many enthusiasts have evolved into operators who don't give a hoot about variations -- at least not in a sense that they're willing to pay a premium for them.

As for the post-war trains in average to poor condition... I'm not sure there was ever a sizable market for those.

David

A Jersey Central FM with a maroon or gray roof...now that would be a rare item!

Bob

nice catch!

 

Ooops.... my head was thinking Lackawanna, but my fingers typed Jersey Central.    But you knew that, right???   

bmoran4 posted:

LionelTin posted:

no one wants to pay what an item is worth. They want it for pennies on the dollar not matter how nice it is.

 

Publilius Syrus wrote: "Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it".

Absolutely correct....But some guys don't get that.

Personally, I am willing to pay what I think something is worth. If something is priced out of my range, then I pass it by. If it is close, I make an offer. If someone gets p.o.'d at me because they feel insulted, then so be it. Chances are you will never sell me something with that attitude.

In January, I was looking at a set of NKP Locomotives at a major train swap meet here in the area. I passed on them at the time. I chatted with the individual about them and decided to give it some thought. The following month, I went back to the same swap meet. The Locomotives were still on this Gentleman's table. I didn't want to insult him. However, I had decided to budget for them in our finances for the month. So, I offered him what I felt I could afford. He accepted my offer if I paid cash. I also took into consideration, the real possibility, that they may not have run correctly when I got them home.

End of story, I paid what I felt was a fair price for a nice Legacy Equipped Locomotive and Dummy unit. They ran beautifully when I got them home.

Woe, be unto those who overvalue the prices of their merchandise at these swap meets. They have the same stuff sitting there month after month. They sit there look mean as heck and don't talk with people. I always wonder, where is the fun in that. I was a collector at one time. From 1976 to about 1992. I sold off my collection before prices tanked completely. Since then, I have come back into the hobby as an operator and not a Collector.

No more, mint in he box, unrun shelf queens here. When I add something to my trains set-up. it is to run it and enjoy it.

GREENRAIL posted:

They sit there look mean as heck and don't talk with people. I always wonder, where is the fun in that.

What I hate the most are people at train shows who, when you offer a friendly, "Hello" or "How's it going?", just stare back and don't respond. There was a husband and wife team at York that had a flat car with a special load that I was interested in, but after hovering around their table and getting that sour reaction I just decided to move on. I have to be honest and say that some of the discussion here, accurate as it is, is giving me some of my first disillusionment with the model train hobby. I realized,  that of late, I have almost a dozen or more pieces of rolling stock (not many compared to some of you) that may never see action on my layout. I guess I just need to be thankful for what I have and figure out to what to do with my excess in rolling stock, buildings, accessories, etc. I will keep SOME of it in storage. What I'd really like to do is sell most of it (difficult and a financial loss as that might be) and get, maybe, a Proto 3 steam engine with great effects. I am rethinking all of this. One thing is sure, I will stay in the hobby and enjoy it. My strategy has to change though. On the bright side, I just had my EM-1 drive shaft drilled and pinned and it is running great. I love the big sound and watching this behemoth circle my layout. it is GREAT... Again, thanks all for your responses which have turned this thread into a very interesting and informative discussion.

Michael Hokkanen posted:

GREENRAIL posted:

They sit there look mean as heck and don't talk with people. I always wonder, where is the fun in that.

What I hate the most are people at train shows who, when you offer a friendly, "Hello" or "How's it going?", just stare back and don't respond. There was a husband and wife team at York that had a flat car with a special load that I was interested in, but after hovering around their table and getting that sour reaction I just decided to move on. I have to be honest and say that some of the discussion here, accurate as it is, is giving me some of my first disillusionment with the model train hobby. I realized,  that of late, I have almost a dozen or more pieces of rolling stock (not many compared to some of you) that may never see action on my layout. I guess I just need to be thankful for what I have and figure out to what to do with my excess in rolling stock, buildings, accessories, etc. I will keep SOME of it in storage. What I'd really like to do is sell most of it (difficult and a financial loss as that might be) and get, maybe, a Proto 3 steam engine with great effects. I am rethinking all of this. One thing is sure, I will stay in the hobby and enjoy it. My strategy has to change though. On the bright side, I just had my EM-1 drive shaft drilled and pinned and it is running great. I love the big sound and watching this behemoth circle my layout. it is GREAT... Again, thanks all for your responses which have turned this thread into a very interesting and informative discussion.

Michael

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of great folks out there at the Swap Meets and in the Hobby. It's a reflection of life and society. I have a lot of fellow Model Railroaders ( not all O Gaugers), and they are some pretty good friends and folks in General.

I would encourage you to not become disillusioned. Look for the good side and the Good People! We are out here.

Enjoy the Trains and he Hobby. I know I do!

John G

I myself have had done pretty good as I buyer in the used train market.  I bought on the Bay a used MTH Railking Y6B with PS 2 for $371 in 2008 and it still runs fabulously!  I've also bought an MTH docksider on the Bay - no problem and it still runs great!  I think when buying on the Bay its wise to always check out the seller's ratings.  I will not buy from anyone with less than a 99.8% rating. Its important to ask the seller questions as well. 

I know there are those of us who have had terrible experiences with purchasing off the Bay, however, that has never been my experience. I've been buying  on the bay for almost 10 years now too.  AND there are times when I have had to send items back .... a particular passenger coach was listed as o scale ... I asked the seller if this car was definitely scale ... she replied with "definitely yes" ... I received the car and it was not scale .... I contacted the seller and she paid for this shipping back and refunded my money in full.  Hopefully she learned a lesson. 

At shows I purchase used rolling stock and never have had a problem.  Most of my rolling stock is used ... I could not afford all of what I have at brand new prices even discounted brand new prices.  Often at shows I've picked up brand new cars from vendors offering estate sales.  I've bought boxcars, passenger cars, new and never been out of the box, for great prices.  

I just purchased at the Timonium show in Maryland, a Lionel ballast tamper and a K line Plymouth industrial switcher .... both run great!  Of course I put them on the test track at the show before handing over the cash to the seller.  That same seller had an MTH AS 16 switcher with proto 2 and low run time and for a great price.  I was set to buy it and low and behold when put on the test track the switcher fired up but would not move in either direction.  Of course the seller was embarrassed and blamed it on the Lionel 90 watt transformer and of course I did not purchase the engine.  AND in all due fairness perhaps the guy had a point about the transformer for I had a strong sense that he was an honest guy.  

Bottom line when at shows - ALWAYS test anything you purchase used such as locomotives, motorized units, operating cars, and accessories ... BEFORE you buy.

You can get some great deals on used ( preowned ) trains.  You just need to be careful.  

I do not purchase postwar trains any longer.  Got enough of those still in my collection from childhood.... and they all run great too!

When I had to take down my layout to permit water pipe work over head and electrical upgrade, I did sell 11 command engines (some sets) at 50% of what I had paid for them (full retail) within a couple of days (post on buy and sell forum was only up for a couple of hours.) The market was weak for the diesels (1 sold) but 3 of my four electrics sold and the remainder were my large steamers. 

What's the point of train shows if there is no haggling? If I want to pay a high price I'll buy from a dealer. If your a collector, than I can see pay for something that you really want, but for people like me. I don't have the financial resources to pay what some guys want, but at the same time I wouldn't haggle on a one on one sale I just won't buy it. People are always going to look for the best deal in anything they want to buy. It's all about what it's worth to you.

DennyM posted:

... I wouldn't haggle on a one on one sale ... 

Don't understand that attitude.  Why wouldn't somebody want to negotiate a better price?  That may be more a rhetorical question, because I know, for example, some automobile dealers offer customers no-haggle pricing (which I interpret as a guise to maximize dealer profit at the expense of people who don't want to negotiate terms, for whatever reason).  I see others who receive their property tax bills and write a check when all they have to do is register a protest to trim the bottom line a bit.  I won't not haggle, I want to make a deal.  Doesn't hurt to ask if you do so in a respectful, personable manner and don't take rejection of an offer personally.

What, me worry?    

The price of any item will be determined by what any given individual is willing to pay for it. I am not afraid to haggle. I do so in a respective way. If someone gets upset then I will walk away. Plain and simple.

I don't begrudge anyone for wanting to get top dollar for any given item. I do however, think some folks have inflated senses of values many times. Bottom line for me is patience. If I am unable to meet my price point, at some point in time, I know I will.

Case in point was my long time (over a year) search for a K-Line Berkshire. When I started searching for one, they were pretty high. Over $600. I waited quite a while, and eventually found one in an online auction, that I was able to buy for around $325. Which to me was right where I felt it should be. It was worth the wait.

I always haggle on used train at train shows.  I can only think of twice where I paid the asking price ... and these were rare pieces and I felt ok about paying the sellers asking price ( after I gave a good go at haggling ).  Over the last 13 years I have never paid asking price - I always worked out a deal with the seller.  When we haggle and feel we got a deal it gives us a good feeling   Sellers expect haggling.

When i sell train at shows, I figure haggling is just part of the experience.  I'm happy to get rid of something thats been sitting in my train room collecting dust and the buyer is happy he/she got a deal.  Its a win win!!

My take on the used market is: (1) that it is weak due to the shift away from collecting and towards operating; and (2) there is often a disconnect between what sellers ask and reality of what people will pay. I have no dog on that fight other than to observe that at meets such as York, it has the effect of reducing my expectations as to what I may find in the member halls as much of it will be the same meet to meet.

decoynh posted:

I've been going to train shows since the early 90's to search for used trains & parts.  I enjoy the wheeling & dealing, BUT rarely will offer less than 25% of a dealers asking price.  Most often, only 10%.  But I also know a lot of the dealers by sight and have friends who stand behind their stuff, even offering to send an engine out to Lionel for repairs.  If it's priced fairly it sells.  Being new to buying here on the forum, the biggest killer that I see are the shipping charges.  Even if a seller was willing to take something back, you're are still out $$$.  I recently made a small purchase on the Forum and shipping was 25% of the items value.  

I won't buy on the forum - unless it's to bundle several items - this is exactly why.  Spending $15-20 per item to ship is outrageous - but that's exactly what it costs.  I try not to buy unless there are 3-4 items at once from the same seller - bundling saves on the shipping costs.  When I sell onl online, I always offer bundling as an option - or offer items in a bundle.

 Over the last 13 years I have never paid asking price - I always worked out a deal with the seller.  When we haggle and feel we got a deal it gives us a good feeling   Sellers expect haggling.

Patrick W.'s comment rings true for me.

For a while I was putting my stuff out at my rock bottom prices in the hope of just moving the stuff out. No matter how good the price was, a significant number of people wouldn't buy. They wanted me to knock something off the price.

So I raised my prices to give myself a little room to haggle. Some folks just paid the higher prices, putting a little more in my pocket. Other folks haggled, and probably got the trains at the prices that they would have seen if I didn't put it a "haggle cushion".

Personally, if I see something I want, and the price is good, I buy it. I don't see the need to beat people up on their prices.

Ray Lombardo posted:

My take on the used market is: (1) that it is weak due to the shift away from collecting and towards operating; and (2) there is often a disconnect between what sellers ask and reality of what people will pay. 

Yep. Exactly. I would add  (3). Depreciation.  Items have a limited shelf life before they begin to depreciate - that's why good-dealers have clearance / close-outs.  When you buy an item from a dealer, thats base. The purchase immediatly devalues the item 10-50% depending on the market. Every day after, it depreciates.  Just because you have an item that is as-sold in-box does not mean it's worth what it was the day it was delivered to a dealer.  

Alfred E Neuman posted:

DennyM posted:

... I wouldn't haggle on a one on one sale ... 

Don't understand that attitude.  Why wouldn't somebody want to negotiate a better price?  That may be more a rhetorical question, because I know, for example, some automobile dealers offer customers no-haggle pricing (which I interpret as a guise to maximize dealer profit at the expense of people who don't want to negotiate terms, for whatever reason).  I see others who receive their property tax bills and write a check when all they have to do is register a protest to trim the bottom line a bit.  I won't not haggle, I want to make a deal.  Doesn't hurt to ask if you do so in a respectful, personable manner and don't take rejection of an offer personally.

 

What, me worry?    

I agree Alfred, I was responding to some of the post that were negative about haggling. I noticed that attitude at York and those people were taking home almost as much as they brought there because they wouldn't deal. 

Jacobpaul81 posted:

Ray Lombardo posted:

My take on the used market is: (1) that it is weak due to the shift away from collecting and towards operating; and (2) there is often a disconnect between what sellers ask and reality of what people will pay. 

Yep. Exactly. I would add  (3). Depreciation.  Items have a limited shelf life before they begin to depreciate - that's why good-dealers have clearance / close-outs.  When you buy an item from a dealer, thats base. The purchase immediatly devalues the item 10-50% depending on the market. Every day after, it depreciates.  Just because you have an item that is as-sold in-box does not mean it's worth what it was the day it was delivered to a dealer.  

What you're saying is largely true... except for the unpredictable (and hard to explain) draw to certain items like die-cast ES44's, Milwaukee Road S-3's, and black VisionLine Hudsons.  Folks are still willing to pay WELL above MSRP for those jewels.  And not for collectible reasons either.  Folks wanna run them.

David

Our take on the used market is that we have observed many of our buildings going for 50% to double what we originally sold them for on "the bay." We think our customers are doing very well.

For example, the Camaraderie Bar & Grill, which is no longer in production and completely sold out, ranges from $125-$159 in the used market. I'd say these buildings have pretty good collectability!

-Mark the Menards Train Guy

Many collectable hobby's or markets has been effected by the internet sites such as CL and ebay. Prior to the internet, if you wanted something that was rare and hard to find, a person had to go to the meets or know some one who knows some one that has what they were looking for and pay their price. Since the internet, all the rare and hard to find pieces all of a sudden became plentiful. The supply and demand was reversed.

As for me, I do most of my buying on ebay. I treat ebay sellers like I'm dealing with some one at a meet. If it doesn't sell or even if they have a buy it now price, I'll contact them on the side and politely ask if they'll take a certain amount w/ shipping included. Suprisingly, many of the sellers except. They know if I don't buy it off them, I'll buy it off some one else.

One time at a train show, I picked up a postwar Lionel 6464-25 GN boxcar for the marked price of $5. It was moderately used, missing one door guide, otherwise presentable. I had a friend with repair parts and it would be an easy fix. A short time later at another table I see the same boxcar, average condition, and the vendor gives me a spiel, "that's half price, only $40" ... made me smile !

Far and few between if you ever get at least what you paid, even if the item is still NIB.

PAUL ROMANO posted:

Far and few between if you ever get at least what you paid, even if the item is still NIB.

Check out "sold" auctions for the Lionel vision 3-pack of tankers with sounds.   $995 on the buy it now!

PAUL ROMANO posted:

Far and few between if you ever get at least what you paid, even if the item is still NIB.

I've only had a problem w/ about four purchases. I contacted the sellers and explained what was wrong, each case the seller made good w/ either a full refund w/return shipping or reduced sale price giving a partial refund.

Here's some example of a few of what I've purchased in the last yr and a half.  I purchased three nib northerns, 18001 RI, 18003 Lackawanna, 18007 SP prices approx. $200-$225 shipped each. Both CN budd sets 18506 & 18512, all four budd cars, LN, lightly used w/ boxes and papers for $260. shipped. These are just a few to mention that I've purchased.

I, myself, am guilty of over haggling. I was at the York train show looking at flatcars with military loads. One gentleman had a fat car with a helicopter on it. He only wanted $15. I said I would give him 13. He looked at  me and said, "I'm not making any money on this thing anyway. Why do you do that?" Part of the game I guess – but maybe too far?? Well, I ended up paying the $15 and I feel like I still got a bargain.

If he bought it for more than $13, that's his problem.  ALL OF US have sold stuff at a loss at some point.   

This is one of many examples on this thread of why I realize attending train shows, in terms of looking to buy, is a waste of time.  The sellers are not businessmen, just unreasonable old men with a jaded view of the world.

GREENRAIL posted:

The price of any item will be determined by what any given individual is willing to pay for it. I am not afraid to haggle. I do so in a respective way. If someone gets upset then I will walk away. Plain and simple.

We encounter those who have a very optimistic sense of worth at York but if you really want to know what the price is "on the street" look on eBay and at the few large local shows that remain.  The prices of used trains are VERY soft. Those items that do sell, are sold at bargain basement prices. Every day more and more train collections are hitting the market. The supply FAR outnumbers the demand.I buy only at the cheapest possible prices, never fail to find what I am looking for and it keeps getting better by the day. The days of high value toy trains are over.

I love the used market. The discounts on new old stock and like new stuff just keep getting better.I bought a legacy equiped jlc big boy 850 new. Vision line bigboy best price bto 1800. 9 years from now will you be able to get a vision line bigboy new for 900?  I would bet yes. John

If it weren't for used trains, I'd have no trains at all. Like others have said you can get what you want at the price you want if you are patient 

Menards posted:

Our take on the used market is that we have observed many of our buildings going for 50% to double what we originally sold them for on "the bay." We think our customers are doing very well.

For example, the Camaraderie Bar & Grill, which is no longer in production and completely sold out, ranges from $125-$159 in the used market. I'd say these buildings have pretty good collectability!

-Mark the Menards Train Guy

From the Eagles 1976 album, "Hotel California," there's a "New Kid In Town," definitely applies to music, love, and especially trains.

enjoy your trains...

I noticed someone mentioning that they are afraid to buy on ebay.

Don't be afraid to buy items on ebay as ebay is very strict on maintaining a happy buyer.  About a year ago, I started buying trains on ebay and have probably bought about 20 items. 

Two items I had trouble with.  The seller never sent the item so ebay refunded my money.   The other item was a PFM sound system that said 'as is'.  Bids were low so I got it for a good price and figured it was working as I have bought about 5 already for my layout.  It didn't work but figured that was my lost but I thought I'd put in an evaluation on the seller in that even though it said 'as is' he should have checked it out.  Ebay saw my evaluation and told me; unless it says for 'parts only', it better work.  Ebay gave me about a week to resolve it with the seller.  The seller wanted me to send it out and have it repaired at my expense.   In the end, ebay refunded my money, plus they paid for the return shipping.  

Some sellers put in 'no refunds, no returns' but ebay guarantees everything you buy.

For me ebay is top notch in protecting the buyer. 

I find auction houses are also great.  Initially, I thought, since the buyer pays 19-22% on the item, the items are going to be very costly.  I adjust for the 20% markup and make my bid, accordingly.  Also, since so many items are sold in just a day, a lot of stuff goes at a very good price.  I put my bids in before the auction starts as, since each item sells in 45 seconds or less, unless you are at the auction, there's no way to bid quickly, online.

Two that I like are Stout's and Morphy.  They have just 'train' auctions.

My view is, I put in a bid on what I think it is worth, if I get it, great, if not, there's more out there that will be for sale.

I'm in multiple hobbies and I was cleaning up my 'hobby shop' and found a lot of stuff that I'll never use and have had for 10 years.  Most of it I mark at 25-50% of what I bought it for or present going price.  In the last month, out of about 40 items, all but 6 so far, have sold in a few days.  I view this as a hobby, not a business.  I got my 'fun' out of it.  If I really don't want it anymore, I put a price on it so it sells quickly.  When I buy something, it's because I want it, not 'can I make a buck on it in the future',  it's easier to sell things later.    Remember, we really don't own anything, we're just caretakers of them, as, sooner or later, you will be gone!

PAUL ROMANO posted:

Far and few between if you ever get at least what you paid, even if the item is still NIB.

I disagree with this statement on higher end items look at what David said about Lionel items selling well above what they were originally purchased for. It depends on what you are talking about not everything falls into this statement. I have not lost anything on the Lionel Vision line or Scale locomotives I bought in the last six or seven years. Look at what the higher end things sell for on auction. Maybe you are speaking of RK items or RTR items or just common things I can see that being true. I think it really depends on what you are selling. 

I agree with Sam on the Evilbay thing.  I've been buying and selling trains on Ebay for years.  Mostly large scale up till now.  The very few issues I have had, both as a seller were easily resolved to my and the buyers satisfaction.  While I am not thrilled about the fees Ebay charges for selling, it's still far better than the old days of placing ads in the newspaper.  

Dennis LaGrua posted:

...  Every day more and more train collections are hitting the market. The supply FAR outnumbers the demand.I buy only at the cheapest possible prices, never fail to find what I am looking for and it keeps getting better by the day. The days of high value toy trains are over.

Except of course for the new stuff Lionel pumps out year after year.   Which is precisely why I'm so puzzled that as many folks as we hear are tripping over themselves pre-ordering new stuff.    I was part of that crowd too up until recently, but this year I really cut back on pre-ordering considerably.  There's just too much of a premium to be paid when buying brand new product arriving off the boats nowadays.

Just last night I was back on Sidetrack Hobbies' website, and I'm forever amazed at the GREAT deals they continue to have on brand new trains that have sat in inventory for more than a year or two.  It's like going on a shopping spree.  Don't get me wrong... You can still spend lots of money, but your money stretches so much further there.  These are the kinds of deals folks thought would be history in the BTO era, but that hasn't been the case at all. 

Case in point:  Want a Lionel Heavy Mikado (BTO)?  Sidetrack has 'em for $806.  Those little gems retailed for $1299 MSRP (which we knew was a joke even on a good day), and some of the big dealers still have them for $940 (2014 models) and $1100 (2015 models).  So either way, $806 is a great deal.  Certainly not chump change for a locomotive, but it's the best price I've seen thus far.

There's a small contingent of folks here who get all up in arms when I come down on Lionel so harshly for their current pricing of new stuff.  But let's get something perfectly straight here.  Nobody -- and I mean nobody -- is criticizing enthusiasts for spending their money however they want.  What folks spend is their own personal business.  But I have absolutely no problem taking Lionel to task on their latest pricing, because the newly catalog'd stuff is so  over-priced compared to items that are -- in some cases -- not even two years old yet.  I think those Heavy Mikados that Sidetrack has for $806 were in one of the 2014 catalogs, but they arrived Stateside more recently than that.  

The next group of locomotives that we'll likely see some downward price movement on in coming months will be the ES44's (in ABS) currently above $550 and the non-articulated steamers currently above $1250 (like the ESE Hudsons) as they collect dust on dealer shelves.  Yet one dealer (a forum sponsor) is pushing his prices upward  toward MSRP on these locomotives , and he's also telling us that the newly catalog'd GS-4 Daylights ($1699 MSRP, $1400 street-price) were some of the more popular 2016 pre-orders.  Just crazy!    Nonetheless, I think I'll take my chances on what happens AFTER delivery of those GS-4's, since Lionel is making 4 of them.  I'll try not to be too picky in 9-12 months.    And if they sell out, I still have my Daylight Cab-Forward (that I paid much  less for just two Decembers ago) to head-up a nice string of Lionel 18" aluminum Daylight passenger cars.

I realize this thread is about the "used train market".  But I think a lot of what's been said here about haggling can be applied equally to "negotiating" the purchase of some of the newer items, since their prices are so volatile after products arrive Stateside. 

The line between "new" and "slightly used" is also becoming much harder to ignore.  For whatever reason, we're seeing stuff pop up on the secondary market fairly quickly these days with 15- to 30-minutes of run-time on a locomotive.  Last week we saw a Legacy Cab-Forward (black) sell on the forum for $950.    And I was doing everything I could to NOT buy it!    That's a GREAT price for an articulated locomotive, when we consider the latest round of pre-order pricing... which makes Lionel's new pricing even tougher to understand (and stomach).

David

i think that there is a lot of product on the market, especially as the older stuff becomes more difficult to work on. but I also think that there is wide fluctuation in the prices of the same item. i recently bought two identical trollies (Lionel 60) both worked, no box and had instructions. One was 70 and the other was 30-. However the price for good well cared and boxed stuff is pretty solid. However I've never been to a train show and I only buy three times a year.

The line between "new" and "slightly used" is also becoming much harder to ignore.  For whatever reason, we're seeing stuff pop up on the secondary market fairly quickly these days with 15- to 30-minutes of run-time on a locomotive.  Last week we saw a Legacy Cab-Forward (black) sell on the forum for $950.    And I was doing everything I could to NOT buy it!    That's a GREAT price for an articulated locomotive, when we consider the latest round of pre-order pricing... which makes the new pricing even tougher to understand (and stomach).

Are you forgetting that the slightly used stuff has no warrantee?

C W Burfle posted:

...

Are you forgetting that the slightly used stuff has no warrantee?

No.  Did you see who the seller was?  I would buy from him without thinking twice about it.

There are still some good deals at the train meets, you hafta really scan the tables and not just be looking for a specific item. Back in Jan the first time in about 15 yrs I went to a train meet. I bought these lightly used excl condition Lionel Madison cars 19011, 15, 16, 17, & 18 for $225.

Trussman posted:

... I bought these lightly used excl condition Lionel Madison cars 19011, 15, 16, 17, & 18 for $225.

Those are really nice 15" Madison cars -- reminiscent of the cars that ran on the "subway lines" of Lionel's legendary 1949 Showroom Layout behind GG-1's (traditional size -- not the larger scale-size).  When Lionel re-issued the Lionel Lines Madison cars in the 1990's, the add-on baggage car was new to the re-issue and was reportedly not produced in the same quantities as the other 4 cars.  So it's great that you acquired a 5-car set in one shot.

Those Madision cars, along with the semi-scale phenolic body freight cars, and the Lackawanna 4-car MU set -- all circa 1990-ish -- are some of the last remaining Lionel cars from that era still on my roster.  They are sentimental favorites.

David

It is not the "take";   it is to "not get taken"....

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Trussman posted:

... I bought these lightly used excl condition Lionel Madison cars 19011, 15, 16, 17, & 18 for $225.

Those are really nice 15" Madison cars -- reminiscent of the cars that ran on the "subway lines" of Lionel's legendary 1949 Showroom Layout behind GG-1's (traditional size -- not the larger scale-size).  When Lionel re-issued the Lionel Lines Madison cars in the 1990's, the add-on baggage car was new to the re-issue and was reportedly not produced in the same quantities as the other 4 cars.  So it's great that you acquired a 5-car set in one shot.

Those Madision cars, along with the semi-scale phenolic body freight cars, and the Lackawanna 4-car MU set -- all circa 1990-ish -- are some of the last remaining Lionel cars from that era still on my roster.  They are sentimental favorites.

David

Thanks Dave,

I also have the SP Madison cars 19019, 23, 24, 25 & 26, I have 2 of 19019 baggage cars.

I remember when the 19011 baggage car came out. I don't know if it's true, but I heard that there were a lot of the 19011 baggage cars sent back because the phenolic bodies cracked. If that's true, then that could be the reason there's not as many.  

Menards posted:

Our take on the used market is that we have observed many of our buildings going for 50% to double what we originally sold them for on "the bay." We think our customers are doing very well.

For example, the Camaraderie Bar & Grill, which is no longer in production and completely sold out, ranges from $125-$159 in the used market. I'd say these buildings have pretty good collectability!

-Mark the Menards Train Guy

Hard to believe but I have no reason to doubt you. Every other building, even the most detailed, that I have is worth, at best 40% or so of its the value. What makes these so special? Not being sarcastic, just asking. 

David

The Lionel thinking back around the 90s I believe was that not everyone who bought the initial set would be a customer for add ons . In the case of the Madison cars the add on was the Madison baggage car and we know that Lionel misjudged the demand for this one. The same was true with the add on B unit for the Santa Fe F-3 ABA Streamliner set from about the same time period. Lionel took up the idea of the add on to sets to spur collector interest in its products as a big part of its market appeal were toy train collectors .

The Phenolic cars are quite interesting . They are scale dimensioned and  were made pretty much as they might have been in the 1940s .What makes them "semi-scale" so to speak is that they were equipped with the deep flange trucks and lionel "claw" couplers rather than scale wheels and couplers. That was how Lionel denoted the difference back in 1941 for the product produced at that time.The 1991 catalog that showed those Madisons and the phenolic cars picturing them with the 1-700E Hudson and the Scale B-6 switcher. These were the most advanced lionel sets in the 1941 catalog from 50 years earlier. The Madison cars from 1991 are very similar in color to the prewar cars , more brown than the maroon or tuscan cars released in the postwar years. The stock car and Refrigerator car produced shortly after the release of the phenolics in 1991 have always interested me as I wondered if they were made from tooling that may have existed back in 1941. The war would have precluded their release and in the immediate postwar period, these sets were maybe contemplated by Lionel but never made. 

Still plenty of postwar and pre war trains... To look for old timers are passing ... So collections come more available ...  Supply and demand.... I will always love postwar and pre war trains...!  They still run! And are made in America not China! No thank you...

I think it is difficult to justify buying an engine that is 6 years old for just $100 off the MSRP. I would prefer to get an engine that is new with the three year warranty for a little bit more. Just my two cents.

Rails posted:

Still plenty of postwar and pre war trains... To look for old timers are passing ... So collections come more available ...  Supply and demand.... I will always love postwar and pre war trains...!  They still run! And are made in America not China! No thank you...

Rails, your reply was one week short of a full year since the previous reply.

How is it that you found this thread after all this time? 

High end items of any kind usually hold their value.  Brass cars hold the interest of modelers drawn to them, very few brass items are being made today and more modelers have more disposable income and can fill their desire to have first class items on their layout.  People who are upgrading their rolling stock are drawn towards brass cars.  On the other hand, people entering the hobby seldom care for Pecos River, Intermountain and Weaver kits.  John

I take time to look at E-Bay but mainly but at Local TCA shows here in NC.  I do not want to take the chance on something (especially and Engine)  and have it end up as a shelf queen.  I have run into some very fair deals at the local train shows.  

booker110 posted:

I think it is difficult to justify buying an engine that is 6 years old for just $100 off the MSRP. I would prefer to get an engine that is new with the three year warranty for a little bit more. Just my two cents.

The three years we seen thrown about is not 3 years of warranty from when you purchase it, it is a three year timer from the production/manufacturing/delivery date to the stores.  During that 3 year window, the manufacturer/importer is willing to extend the traditional warranty, generally one year to original purchaser.  After that 3 year window, the manufacturer/importer is basically stating you are on your own.

Determining that starting date for the "window" is a whole other quandary, since they don't stamp it on the box anywhere like a loaf of bread.

With a few exceptions, most modern trains come with a one year warranty to the original purchaser from the date you buy it from an authorized dealer. 

-Dave

Five years ago I bought a mint $60 box car at the "bottom dropped out of the market price" of $20. I recently decided to sell it - still in mint condition but listed it as used because the box had shelf wear. After 3 attempts on eBay I managed to get one bid and sold it for $8. This and other similar experiences made me think the used market is weak except for top quality in the box postwar. I have decided to sell only junk - broken things and clean out the bottom of the closet. Of course now I am adding to the weakness of the market.....

I pretty much only sell here on OGR.  I've found that if it's fairly priced , it sells quickly.  Sometimes I put the "I don't really want to sell it price" on something.  If it sells I'm happy & if it doesn't, I'm happy to keep it.  I've also bought some really nice things here on OGR at what I consider very fair prices.  

What really bothers me is something that I saw at the December Greenberg show in Wilmington MA.  There were people selling Menards' cars for $40 to $50 each car.  Now I just shook my head and walked away, but there were people unfamiliar with the product, buying it at those prices for their kids.  They were comparing it to Lionel & MTH cars at the same booth.  Lionel is competing now with the new "no box" 027 cars.

Do many of you also notice the same dealers with the same inventory of post war trains, selling at the same prices, at the same shows year after year? Those are dealers that are still stuck in high demand years of the 1970's. The trains that they are selling are mostly shelf queens as many are not good runners. The P/W wheels on axle cars restrict one to running a short consist. Some of the early F3's with the growler motors emit a noise that is annoying. The vibrotor powered accessories are temperamental and all of the engines ( even those that run well)  have motors that consume gobs of power but will last nearly forever. I would venture to say that the majority of collectors at this point have all of the post war trains that they wanted and more than they could ever use in four lifetimes. Its a buyers market and prices will continue to decline. Not only has new technology taken over, the demographic of those that buy the trains is changing rapidly.

Pingman posted:

Rails posted:

Still plenty of postwar and pre war trains... To look for old timers are passing ... So collections come more available ...  Supply and demand.... I will always love postwar and pre war trains...!  They still run! And are made in America not China! No thank you...

Rails, your reply was one week short of a full year since the previous reply.

How is it that you found this thread after all this time? 

It's OK. I am glad to see my old thread revived.

Since the OP I have still lots of trains and accessories to give away, er - I mean sell. I have even gone to bundling to attract buyers. There is such a HUGE market out there and a shrinking pool of buyers. The 100's and 100's of member tables at York give evidence of that.

bigo426 posted:

Five years ago I bought a mint $60 box car at the "bottom dropped out of the market price" of $20. I recently decided to sell it - still in mint condition but listed it as used because the box had shelf wear. After 3 attempts on eBay I managed to get one bid and sold it for $8. This and other similar experiences made me think the used market is weak except for top quality in the box postwar. I have decided to sell only junk - broken things and clean out the bottom of the closet. Of course now I am adding to the weakness of the market.....