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Hello group,

After relocating several times in the last 7 years, I am finally able to build and construct a permanent layout.

Not much sooner after considering, and deciding, not sell my MTH collection and move to HO scale, is when I hear about MTH closing.

This is after I have purchased, and weathered, a lot of Ross Track and Switches.

I am already heavily invested in MTH; Proto 2 engines, rolling stock, Z4000, TIU and AIU, etc.

I'm curious what other MTH'ers are planning to do without MTH no longer in the market?

Looking for thoughts, advice, and encouragement in this journey.

Thank you all in advance,

Richard

Original Post

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Richard, I have several MTH engines, a DCS system, Z4000, and numerous cars.  I plan on not changing anything.  Supposedly an employee group will be taking over the electronics portion of the business, so I am hoping when I have an electronics failure there will be parts available for me or a service technician to fix it.  If not, I'll probably convert the electronics to the Lionel TMCC compatible ERR electronics.  When something mechanical breaks, I'll see what is on the market at the time.  I think it is too early to make a major decision to dispose of any of my MTH investment that I wouldn't be doing anyway.

I remain optimistic. Someone in the know with money could pick up the Premier items and RK engine line while networking with the new DCS group as well. There is still much more to offer the true O modelers in this hobby.

We just need a knowledgeable R.R. person with good marketing experience to carry the torch a few more years. Maybe a V.P. modeler with a layout as well.

The non-scale lower cost toy items can carry on with Menards, RMT and WBB Type companies.

With 3D printing, long term cost shouldn’t be an issue while allowing the pricing to be affordable to everyone concerning NEW offerings. The other two companies have driven themselves out of the true O marketplace on pricing.

I believe the election outcome will also help decide the future of O scale.

Last edited by SIRT
@Nycfan posted:

A friend of mine just renewed his MTH membership.I am puzzled.Why?Is there something going on behind closed doors with MTH?

Maybe he decided he wanted some of the 2020 club cars? While they have shipped earlier this summer, MTH may have some still to sell if people want them.

Agreed other than that, there is no remaining benefit that I can think of.  No more catalogs.  Unless they have PS3 upgrade kits available?  I think there used to be some level of club discount for those.

Or he just wanted an ID card for the final year...

As to the OP question, I intend to do the same thing I did with my Mercury automobile when Ford folded the Mercury brand.  Which is "nothing", until it became too challenging to continue repairing it as a daily use vehicle.

-Dave

Last edited by Dave45681

Watching the Trainworld York show on Thursday if there is a second wind for MTH, Andy and Rich should play poker for a living and drop the train gig.  I hope there is but with little news from MTH I won't hold much hope.  It would be a shame if they wait too long and let some long time dealers close up shop and then make that "Big Announcement".  While it would be great news for the MTH folks and us, it will be lousy timing for some retailers.

Even without any real news I'm hoping for the best though.

@MartyE posted:

It would be a shame if they wait too long and let some long time dealers close up shop and then make that "Big Announcement".  While it would be great news for the MTH folks and us, it will be lousy timing for some retailers.

Even without any real news I'm hoping for the best though.

MTH won't be able to announce a deal (if there is one) until the deal is done.

Honestly, I'll be drop-dead amazed if there a deal this late in the game.  If there was a deal to be had, it would have been done by now.  Announcing the closure and selling off all the stuff in the warehouse in a monster auction isn't the moves I'd expect if there was a continuation in the wind.

Obviously, I'd love to be proven wrong, it sucks that MTH will be going away, but I have to face facts.

@1Irishrover posted:

Hello group,



I'm curious what other MTH'ers are planning to do without MTH no longer in the market?

Looking for thoughts, advice, and encouragement in this journey.

Thank you all in advance,

Richard

My two cents;

Enjoy what you have, I'm an operator and I am grateful for the variety of trains MTH/ Railking has introduced into the hobby.

As far as I'm concerned, Im going to run em and enjoy them until they dont run anymore. Then I'll deal with it at that point, life's too short to worry about stuff i have no control over.

Lionel, Atlas 0, and Williams by Bachmann are still around, and who knows who else may come around later.

Last edited by Penn-Pacific

I am NOT amazed that MTH is selling off most of the holdings in the showroom and warehouse. The majority is PS1 or PS2 and car/building proto types or items no longer in production. When you sell a large company why would you keep dead product? A new company will have no use for it and the old company can sell or auction, as is the case now, and make some money off of it. The real funny part is watching the auction and seeing people bid higher that what the item originally sold for. But the extreme fun is watching them do this and the item is still available. I was bidding on a car, decided to check retail on MTH web site, found 2 dealers who had it. Bought it for less than retail with shipping. Final  price at auction was $20 over retail and they still had to add sales tax and shipping DUH!

As for the MTH membership, Yep I did it as I always do. Premier membership and RailKing car extra. Why? Cause I wanted to and wanted the items. My choice.

Honestly, I'll be drop-dead amazed if there a deal this late in the game.  If there was a deal to be had, it would have been done by now.  Announcing the closure and selling off all the stuff in the warehouse in a monster auction isn't the moves I'd expect if there was a continuation in the wind.

Obviously, I'd love to be proven wrong, it sucks that MTH will be going away, but I have to face facts.

I’ve worked for several Major companies through my 44 year career. VP’s don’t tell you anything. When someone is axed, you don’t know until days later when they don’t show up.

So maybe someone can tell us where all the tooling, jigs, molds and production equipment is going?  Certainly not on ebay where Perrystoyexchange has been selling their odd ball items for MTH for years. 

After MTH closes, I will stop buying new MTH engines.  And I won’t renew my membership in the MTHRRC.  I will probably get a few used engines per year, but not as many as I have been.

As for thoughts, advice and encouragement, I would pick up a spare TIU and remote.  I suspect my MTH engines will still be running long after I stop running.

Anything that's in China is staying right there!

Absolutely right.  China will never let tooling material leave the country.  even if they got wind you were going to try it all your dies would suddenly grow legs and start shuffling about just out of your reach.  Its just how the country is.  Manufacturing material and intellectual property get sucked up like a vacuum.

I remember not too many years ago Mike giving a behind the scenes tour of products being made in China.  I really feel the only way any of that tooling gets used again is if it stays right were it's at. 

As to OP's original question - continue to love the stuff I have.  Look for more on the secondary market as I want to.  And probably break down and gets one of those new all in one tiu packages that only work through the app, but not until next year. 

I am still very curious to see what happens with the coming software company that was originally discussed.

@SIRT posted:


So maybe someone can tell us where all the tooling, jigs, molds and production equipment is going?  

It doesn't have to go anywhere. Who knows where the K Line tooling was? but Lionel obviously had no trouble finding it.

Now if Lionel were to "aquire" the MTH tooling, imagine the variety of Legacy choices there would be, and the monopoly prices to go with it.

There is video on youtube of the factory currently making many of Lionels steamers. They have video of products made in several different scales for several different model train companies.

It looks more and more like the only difference between any model train, is the name on the box.

Of course this is nothing new, Kenmore, Whirlpool, Frigidaire.

Last edited by RickO

I'll just add that I truly hope MTH somehow lives on in some form.

To me, it stinks that just as I'm really starting to get into the higher end of O gauge modeling, spending over 3K between a Premier engine, rolling stock, DCS controller and track that in a few short months later, the news of MTH closing hit the media. I get it, Mike is done, tired, wants to retire but why oh why just shut it all down after all he and his company has done for the world of model trains?

Mike, if you happen to read this. Thank you for doing what you have for this industry for 40 years all the same.

@Lehigh74 posted:

After MTH closes, I will stop buying new MTH engines.  And I won’t renew my membership in the MTHRRC. I will probably get a few used engines per year, but not as many as I have been.

As for thoughts, advice and encouragement, I would pick up a spare TIU and remote.  I suspect my MTH engines will still be running long after I stop running.

I can understand what you are saying with not buying "new" engines, since those would be sold in hobby shops and they will probably be around after the closure date.

But while I agree you won't be doing it (nor will I ), how would renewing a MTHRRC membership even be an option?  There are no more catalogs, no more new products offered after the April 2020 catalog (aside from perhaps a few custom runs that are uncatalogued), so MTH will not be soliciting renewals for 2021 (at least I hope not! I fell confident they will not be sending out renewal reminders )

-Dave

@jhz563 posted:

I am still very curious to see what happens with the coming software company that was originally discussed.

I wonder what the business model would look like for a DCS software company:

  • What would they sell? Software only? Boards, too? (If boards, too, where would they be made? And would quantities be sufficient to get them made at a reasonable cost?)
  • What sorts of enhancements to DCS?
  • To whom would they sell? Service centers? End users?
  • What would pricing be?
  • Where would the start-up capital come from?
  • Degree of risk?
  • Would profit per sale and volume be sufficient to make the business viable and justify the opportunity cost of the money, time, and labor invested?

Interesting questions that will have to be answered in one way or another. What are your thoughts?

I don't operate on a large scale, but I get a number of boards manufactured overseas.  I can tell you up front, that the costs for small quantities is much greater than for large quantities.  For a major train manufacturer making boards for their product, they would doubtless get boards at a fraction of what I pay.  Think of all the Chinese electronics you buy for peanuts, all those boards had to be manufactured.  The difference is they were made in the thousands or tens of thousands.  When I commission a hundred boards. The part, setup, and assembly run are substantially more expensive.

I suspect this is what any follow-on DCS company will face, without a major product line that is using a large quantity of the boards, the prices will be significantly higher.  That will lead to significantly lower volumes which will lead to higher prices.  See where this is going?

@jhz563 posted:

Absolutely right.  China will never let tooling material leave the country.  even if they got wind you were going to try it all your dies would suddenly grow legs and start shuffling about just out of your reach.  Its just how the country is.  Manufacturing material and intellectual property get sucked up like a vacuum.



So much speculation again.

How does anyone know anything about the behind the scenes business of MTH?  For all we know part of the deal between Mike W. and the Chinese factories he uses is that two (or more) mold masters are made and one gets shipped back to the US for MTH to keep.

that question has been on my mind ever since i heard the news

never had an mth and always wanted one just never got one. big fan of the railking / rugged rails 4-6-0 and 2-8-0 engines that usually came in starter sets, just thought they were a nice steamer and then were the sports sets . those were awesome always wanted a railking steelers set and and any other one i came across

now with MTH closing i may be too late hopefully some hobby store online may have one set left by next year that has a 2-8-0 or 4-6-0 in a freight set.

@rplst8 posted:

So much speculation again.

How does anyone know anything about the behind the scenes business of MTH?  For all we know part of the deal between Mike W. and the Chinese factories he uses is that two (or more) mold masters are made and one gets shipped back to the US for MTH to keep.

Dream on!  This issue has been so widely publicized that it's hard for me to believe you actually think that.   Tooling that gets created in China stays in China.

" two (or more) mold masters are made and one gets shipped back to the US for MTH to keep."

I'm no expert, but this would seem cost prohibitive and functionally unnecessary.  The tooling is the major cost of any toy train, particularly diecast metal locomotives.   If extensive tooling were available for use stateside, the sale of the company, at whatever price, would have already occurred is my guess.

@Dave45681 posted:

I can understand what you are saying with not buying "new" engines, since those would be sold in hobby shops and they will probably be around after the closure date.

But while I agree you won't be doing it (nor will I ), how would renewing a MTHRRC membership even be an option?  There are no more catalogs, no more new products offered after the April 2020 catalog (aside from perhaps a few custom runs that are uncatalogued), so MTH will not be soliciting renewals for 2021 (at least I hope not! I fell confident they will not be sending out renewal reminders )

-Dave

About 2-3 years ago I had let my MTHRRC membership lapse. I rejoined last November. I wanted the Standard Gauge car. The car showed up about two or 3 weeks later but I never got a membership card or anything else. Initially I thought it was because I joined up near the end of the year. Now I feel this may have happened due to the closure. I assume my membership was for 2019. I would like to join up for 2020 but I am a little nervous about it. I like the Premier boxcar. Perhaps I will give MTH a call.

Last edited by Hudson J1e
@Hudson J1e posted:

About 2-3 years ago I had let my MTHRRC membership lapse. I rejoined last November. I wanted the Standard Gauge car. The car showed up about two or 3 weeks later but I never got a membership card or anything else. Initially I thought it was because I joined up near the end of the year. Now I feel this may have happened due to the closure. I assume my membership was for 2019. I would like to join up for 2020 but I am a little nervous about it. I like the Premier boxcar. Perhaps I will give MTH a call.

OK, makes sense to me now.  The cycle of when the club was generally offered was earlier in the year, and the cars (with some exceptions when there were delays) would occasionally be available at April York, or shipped some time around July.

I received both club cars earlier this summer.  You should call and see if they have any left.  Unless the intentionally did a smaller run because they knew of the closure before the public did, there may still be a few extras to be had.  I'm pretty sure it was not a "BTO" situation.  It made sense for them to keep some extras after the initial memberships were signed up in case people were interested later in the year, as you did last year.

For this year, I did not get a separate envelope with my card and pin (which was normally pretty standard), it was just placed in the end of the box for one of the cars.

I mistakenly assumed that people on this board who bought the club cars all knew the somewhat regular timeline for release and were buying when first offered.  That is obviously not true since now both you and the OP of the question I was responding to may have bought club items later in the year. 

-Dave

Last edited by Dave45681

The bear says:  Don't worry.  Just because MTH has decided to stop operatiions does not mean you should panic.  As long has we have the Forum and there are gentlemen out there that know a lot about MTH Trains, there will be someone to fix your choo choos.  I bought lots of MTH Trains starting in the mid-1990s.  I made a lot of purchases from Davis Trains, Milford, Ohio.  He is now out of business.  But, one of the gentlemen that fixed trains at Davis Trains is still a friend of mine.  He fixes Lionel, MTH, etc from his home in Indiana.  He has fixed quite a few of my MTH locos.  If you wish to know his name, just look me up in the members section of this Forum under railbear601.  Good luck and enjoy your trains........   

Dave45681, thank you very much for your response. Maybe my card is in the box. I haven’t opened it yet. I can tell you for absolute certain that I did buy the car later on in the year. No doubt about it. I distinctly remember it showing up sometime in December. I should have realized that they had already been delivered and MTH had a few leftover. I was surprised it got there so fast.

I have at times seen older club offerings for sale at the MTH booth during either York. That’s how I got my other Standard Gauge car. MTH had it marked down significantly.

Last edited by Hudson J1e
@Hudson J1e posted:

About 2-3 years ago I had let my MTHRRC membership lapse. I rejoined last November. I wanted the Standard Gauge car. The car showed up about two or 3 weeks later but I never got a membership card or anything else. Initially I thought it was because I joined up near the end of the year. Now I feel this may have happened due to the closure. I assume my membership was for 2019. I would like to join up for 2020 but I am a little nervous about it. I like the Premier boxcar. Perhaps I will give MTH a call.

According to the MTH website, The MTHRRC Pullman Standard boxcar (20-93900) is still in stock.

@harmonyards posted:

What do after MTH closes up?

improvise, adapt and overcome......

Pat

Yup. I'm not worried about the mechanical/hard parts on my MTH stuff, it'll probably outlast me. My only worry going forward would be getting DCS/PS3 components. If those become no longer available as stuff dies it'll get TMCC, DCC, or whatever else going forward. Just because the electronics die doesn't mean the locomotive is a doorstop.

"What to do after MTH closure"

What with the continuing problems with command control electronics, the lack of new products in the 3-Rail market, and my advancing age (my eyes and fingers no longer did what I wanted them to do), I had Stout Auctions take EVERYTHING. We then sawed apart the layout and put the 3' by 4' sections out for the trash-man. With the sale of all the buildings and all locomotives & cars, I am now "out of the model railroad hobby", after some 60 years. I must admit that I am quite relieved now!  

@Hot Water posted:

"What to do after MTH closure"

What with the continuing problems with command control electronics, the lack of new products in the 3-Rail market, and my advancing age (my eyes and fingers no longer did what I wanted them to do), I had Stout Auctions take EVERYTHING. We then sawed apart the layout and put the 3' by 4' sections out for the trash-man. With the sale of all the buildings and all locomotives & cars, I am now "out of the model railroad hobby", after some 60 years. I must admit that I am quite relieved now!  

I don't believe the target audience of the question was for those that have exited the hobby.

I’ve really enjoyed my MTH engines and other MTH products so continue to keep buying.  I did hedge my bet a little and finally bought a Lionel Chiefplus 2.0 and preordered a Legacy Diesel but debating on getting the Legacy control system.  Christmas is coming.

I was really upset when MTH first made the announcement but am inspired when I see people on here converting to TMCC or perhaps DCC, if it is ever necessary.  

the most unfortunate aspect is the loss of Local Train Stores which had MTH as a primary line, for me it will be Mercer Junction [good health to you Dave].

It doesn't matter if you are a Lionel person or primarily a  MTH person, less product choice = higher prices, fewer "Mercer Junctions"  & fewer dealers heading towards local and  regional train shows.

Given current circumstances, MTH's folding the tent couldn't have occurred at a less unfortunate time.

I'm still buying MTH locomotives, as well as freight and passenger cars, some of the best stuff I own.  All this means is it'll be a bit harder to get the locomotives I want.  I currently run my MTH PS-3 locomotives DCC, so if the PCBAs die, they'll just get replaced by LoKSound decoders, which is what are currently slowly being added to my PS-1 locomotives.  I'm sad, but have already gone through the stages of grief and am moving on to just enjoying my trains and running the wheels off of them.

Hot Water: Looks like you and I aren't part of the "Chosen Few" so have no right whatsoever to express our reasons for exiting the hobby.  Once upon a time in America every law abiding citizen could say and stand up for his constitutional rights.  One was called Freedom of Speech!  Perhaps it's time that the OGR staff condider deleting our posts and refund the $$$ which we invested to insure that OGR won't go the way many publications have in recent years...?

...and by the way, have a GREAT day!

Note: One of the Chosen Few called me ignorant on a recent post.  OGR didn't delete it!

Once again, give it a rest. Please.   And, FWIW, let's not even start a discussion about Freedom of Speech and "constitutional rights," vis a vis an Internet model train forum. That's a loser of an argument with a Capital L.

Last edited by johnstrains

Hot Water,

First, I wish you the best and hope that you find something else in which to be interested. I understand how you feel because I know that when we get to an advanced age - which I am - it's more difficult to maintain an interest in things and avoid being discouraged. Nonetheless, with or without new models from MTH, I hope to persist in O gauge trains because they are a mostly enjoyable pastime and a worthwhile diversion for me.

By far, most of my trains are MTH - purchased over the past 23 years - although I also have Sunset, Atlas O, K-Line, Weaver and Lionel (in that order). As a long-time purchaser, my preference has been for MTH in terms of quality, durability and prototypes, so I'm unhappy that Mike's is closing. For me, it probably means that there will be fewer new offerings that I will want to buy. That's unfortunate because I still enjoy getting a new locomotive... But, I'm less concerned with how the closure of MTH will affect me personally and more concerned with how it will affect the future of the O gauge hobby.

MELGAR



Note: One of the Chosen Few called me ignorant on a recent post.  OGR didn't delete it!

Chosen few?  Where do I sign up for that club?  Since I believe you are referring to my post about what you said about Mike Wolf in an earlier thread, I apologize if you misread it and thought it applied to you and not what you wrote. Moving on.

As far as Jack's response in this thread, I didn't see any reason anyone should have had an issue with it but then again we all interpret things differently.

Last edited by MartyE

Once upon a time in America every law abiding citizen could say and stand up for his constitutional rights.  One was called Freedom of Speech!  Perhaps it's time that the OGR staff condider deleting our posts and refund the $$$ which we invested to insure that OGR won't go the way many publications have in recent years...?

OGR can do whatever they want! Free speech doesn’t apply here since OGR owns this forum. And yes, many law abiding people do still say and stand up for their rights, just in the right place and at the right time.

Note: One of the Chosen Few called me ignorant on a recent post.  OGR didn't delete it!

Maybe, just maybe, that post was in someway supposed to provide some accurate context in response to conspiracy theories! People have different opinions, no need to be bitter about it, just move on.

I know what I am going to do.  I am going to keep buying, selling, running, and enjoying model trains for as long as I can.  I already have a large collection from nearly every manufacturer that will keep me interested and busy for many years to come.

The best part of the hobby for me are the friendships that I have made over the years.  I am in my mid 70s and will need to downsize sooner than later.  

This does not mean that I will leave the hobby.  I plan to participate in forums and to keep a few pieces that I can run at a club or on a friend's layout.  I don't see any reason to fully exit the hobby unless I can no longer mentally or physically participate.  

I have already converted all my MTH PS-1 engines to TMCC using ERR boards.  I will continue to do so if MTH boards fail in the future.  I am not sure what to do if one of my MTH engines has a motor or gear failure.  I will cross that bridge when I get to it.  

NH Joe

@railbear601 posted:

The bear says:  Don't worry.  Just because MTH has decided to stop operatiions does not mean you should panic.  As long has we have the Forum and there are gentlemen out there that know a lot about MTH Trains, there will be someone to fix your choo choos.  I bought lots of MTH Trains starting in the mid-1990s.  I made a lot of purchases from Davis Trains, Milford, Ohio.  He is now out of business.  But, one of the gentlemen that fixed trains at Davis Trains is still a friend of mine.  He fixes Lionel, MTH, etc from his home in Indiana.  He has fixed quite a few of my MTH locos.  If you wish to know his name, just look me up in the members section of this Forum under railbear601.  Good luck and enjoy your trains........   

Is your friend "TRAINGOD" ? ( a nickname he earned) I will be emailing you. He also repaired alot for me and I lost contact with him. He upgraded my ps-1' to ps-2's. I often wondered what happened to him. Last time we talked He was going through a rough time. I have more to be repaired.

I'm a late comer to the O gauge scene. I started in 1998, but had a long absence period until 2016. Since then I've been able to buy a fleet of 3 CPR and 5 CNR locomotives. I had no brand bias, but only 2 of those 8 are Lionel. This is why I am disappointed to see MTH leave the market. Regardless, I have enough locomotives. But wait, I have one more coming from Atlas. Then I'll have enough until another one comes along.

Fantasy thoughts; Menards obtains the Rail King line and Atlas obtains the Premier line.

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