What will be the new Sunset Diesel Locomotive announcement?

In Scott's latest newsletter he said he was contemplating the GP40-2 as a replacement to the sluggish SD40-2 reservations and asking for feedback on this model selection.

Scott K.

I would like to see the FM H-16-44.  But, I can't read Scott's mind.

Just my $0.25, adjusted for inflation, of course.  Mike, very clever.  I hope you don't mind my using it.

Ed

Most likely something Old that is only found in a museum

Probably some little switcher that was popular in the 1940's/'50's.

I'd love to see the SD40-2's get done but that isn't going to happen. I've already emailed Scott to express my interest in the GP40-2 project but sadly, I think that will meet the same fate as the SD40-2.

Lionel and MTH make SD45's. I'm not sure if either make and SD45-2. It seems like the only interest is in something from the early days of diesel. Anything that could even remotely close to being considered modern will probably garner little enthusiasm.

Alco is rare. IMO.  I found these interesting, Steamtown, Scranton, PA.  The low nose would work well with the current Sunset drive system.  Different diesels, apparently parts are still available.  As I was walking through the yard next to DL 3000, it was so quiet, I didn't realize it was running.   A C630, which had been done by Weaver and others.   Smaller models that would fit/operate well, on most layouts. Again IMO.

Mike, I agree that an F9 is a strong possibility. Scott has stated his intention to offer North Coast Limited passenger cars, which can’t be far off now that the Empire Builder is finishing. An NP F9 ABA set would be ideal for the NCL (although F3 and F7 units were also used). 

I would like to see a GP9 and/or GP7.    The GP9 was much more common and many more were built.   It was the mainstay of the RRs for a number of years, kind of like the SD-40 was in the 80s and 90s.

Catnap,

You are right about the SD45 which is why I only suggested the tunnel motors and the very rare SD45B. Produced along with the SD40T-2, maybe that would garner enough reservations for a run of the four models. I'd like something much newer, but given the number of ACes, ES44s, and GEvos produced in 3 rail by Lionel and MTH, I just don't see Scott getting enough total 2 rail/3 rail orders to carry a run. Sigh............. I'd like to see a Tier 4 Locomotive, but maybe just 2 new a model for a small importer to carry. Sigh some more.................

prrjim posted:

I would like to see a GP9 and/or GP7.    The GP9 was much more common and many more were built.   It was the mainstay of the RRs for a number of years, kind of like the SD-40 was in the 80s and 90s.

Recently done  Sunset SD 7 and SD 9 

Hopefully the GP9 and GP7 would share a bunch of parts with the SD versions.    In that era, 6 axle power was not as common.   It was considered more for heavy duty lugging, or in some cases llight axle loadings.    For example, PRR had over 300 GP9s, and only a dozen or so SD9s and only 2 SD7s for the Madison hill.

I do have a sunset SD9 and it is very nice.

prrjim posted:

Hopefully the GP9 and GP7 would share a bunch of parts with the SD versions.    In that era, 6 axle power was not as common.   It was considered more for heavy duty lugging, or in some cases llight axle loadings.    For example, PRR had over 300 GP9s, and only a dozen or so SD9s and only 2 SD7s for the Madison hill.

I do have a sunset SD9 and it is very nice.

Then there are railroads like the CB&Q and SP that used SD7 & SD9 models, equipped with steam generators, in passenger service.

The tunnel motors would be awesome!  As would the GP40-2 both have major class I railroads that could help carry other regional railroads that might not draw as many orders.  Likewise there are different eras and paint variations that could be applied for multi-runs.   The GP10's in HO and now N are widely successful, but highly unlikely. 

None the less, whatever it is certainly needs to be something that has some popularity, longevity, and can potentially be reused for other projects down the road, which might further lend credibility to the F9's, etc...

The PRR had some GP7s equipped with Steam generatoers for Passenger service.   I don't think they had any GP9s with steam generators,    At that time, they apparently had enough E7s, E8s, FP7s, Alco PAs, and Baldwin psg sharks to handle  the remainining passenger requirements.

OK here's a stretch.  I will go for the Baldwin centipedes in N de M   PRR  SAL and the cancled UP paint.

Yes I know thew have been done, but not accurate.

BH

As these models are waaay beyond my budget it doesn't really matter to me what the new loco announced is.

But, as we all like to wishlist... a GP38-2 and/or a CF7, please.  

Hot Water posted:

prrjim posted:

Hopefully the GP9 and GP7 would share a bunch of parts with the SD versions.    In that era, 6 axle power was not as common.   It was considered more for heavy duty lugging, or in some cases llight axle loadings.    For example, PRR had over 300 GP9s, and only a dozen or so SD9s and only 2 SD7s for the Madison hill.

I do have a sunset SD9 and it is very nice.

Then there are railroads like the CB&Q and SP that used SD7 & SD9 models, equipped with steam generators, in passenger service.

Both roads SDs look gorgeous, whether SP black widow or Burlington's Chinese red.

And even stodgy PRR dabbled in GP9bs, joining  Uncle Pete who had a whole slew of them.

Might make for a better seller. 

I can tell you a decision has not been made.  The lack of reservations for the SD40-2 has made Scott wary of any "modern" locomotives.  He would love to do a Tier 4 but if either Lionel or MTH announce one prior to delivery the dollars first crowd will walk away from their reservations so fast he won't be able to keep up with them.  So the only possibility would be deposit required reservations and he does not want to do that either and does not believe that will receive much support.

I've suggested Train Masters and that has not received much support because of the Lionel and MTH versions.  I have suggested multiple versions of Baldwin DRS and AS units (no switchers) because of the similarity of the body shells and number of roads so that is a possibility.  And there is only one version done by MTH, albeit very poorly.

Personally I rooting for the GP40-2 but that is showing similar support to the the SD.

rdunniii posted:

..... So the only possibility would be deposit required reservations and he does not want to do that either and does not believe that will receive much support. ....

I've sometimes wondered about that. These beautifully and correctly detailed models have an accordingly higher price, and therefore appeal to a more discerning modeler .... who really knows what he wants. Why not let folks put their money where their mouth is .... with deposits? Maybe there would be surprises as to which models have a lot of demand?

Though, I'm sure that the folks at 3rd Rail have put lots of thought into this, and know better. Marketing and Sales is not my bag. 

I would have liked some old ALCO's and jeeps from them.

RDUNNlll

I think it goes without saying that what ever Scott does, Brand M and Brand L will race to put a cheaper version into production. If that is the overwhelming single factor, then, based on that logic, nothing can be produced as it will always be copied by M and L, unless, maybe it's a very oddball item as mentioned earlier.  I notice that Lionel is putting out F-7s and 3 rail hobbyist do have their brand loyalties, many times choosing Brand and Price over quality and scale. Progress is being made thanks to 3RS, but it's slow going. I think that maybe now, reservations with deposits is the answer. Yes, put up your cash to back your play. It is the way many brass projects are done. I realize it's an accounting headache, especially if the run is cancelled for lack of enough reservations, but I'm at a lost think of any other way to do it. And I do agree that if the reservation phase is a long one, people want to pull their money and use it for other things....like staying alive, keeping warm, paying debts. I get it. Even now, I must admit, that there are those who will wait until Scott announces something, then say to themselves, "Hey, Brand M or L will make that, all I have to do is wait and I'll get a better price (if not a better model). It's cheaper, and who cares where the headlight is. Truthfully, I don't need headlights, etc., etc.," I know I sound like I'm raining on my own parade, but...you make a very sobering point: The split between O Scale and O Gauge makes it very hard to get a quality model that's not a brass budget buster. If there was one track, one standard, one operating system, this would all be much easier to work out. In those ever fateful words, "Now what?".

Mike Caddell posted:

RDUNNlll

I think it goes without saying that what ever Scott does, Brand M and Brand L will race to put a cheaper version into production. If that is the overwhelming single factor, then, based on that logic, nothing can be produced as it will always be copied by M and L, unless, maybe it's a very oddball item as mentioned earlier.  I notice that Lionel is putting out F-7s and 3 rail hobbyist do have their brand loyalties, many times choosing Brand and Price over quality and scale. Progress is being made thanks to 3RS, but it's slow going. I think that maybe now, reservations with deposits is the answer. Yes, put up your cash to back your play. It is the way many brass projects are done. I realize it's an accounting headache, especially if the run is cancelled for lack of enough reservations, but I'm at a lost think of any other way to do it. And I do agree that if the reservation phase is a long one, people want to pull their money and use it for other things....like staying alive, keeping warm, paying debts. I get it. Even now, I must admit, that there are those who will wait until Scott announces something, then say to themselves, "Hey, Brand M or L will make that, all I have to do is wait and I'll get a better price (if not a better model). It's cheaper, and who cares where the headlight is. Truthfully, I don't need headlights, etc., etc.," I know I sound like I'm raining on my own parade, but...you make a very sobering point: The split between O Scale and O Gauge makes it very hard to get a quality model that's not a brass budget buster. If there was one track, one standard, one operating system, this would all be much easier to work out. In those ever fateful words, "Now what?".

I certainly admire Scott and 3rd rail for the work that they do in bringing in quality O gauge/scale equipment to the hobby.

Nope, not Key/Kohs/MMW quality but a head above the rest not only in features but more importantly in fixing quality and fidelity issues.   And their models run great.

Nope, they aren't ultimate state of the art show quality models made of unobtainium and priced accordingly.  

Just great quality and accurate stuff that is worth the price.

Originally posted by PRRJim:

The PRR had some GP7s equipped with Steam generatoers for Passenger service.   I don't think they had any GP9s with
steam generators,   At that time they apparently had enough E7s, E8s, FP7s, Alco PAs, Rs3's and Baldwin psg sharks to
handle the remainining passenger requirements.

I would be interested in a  Torpedo Tube PRR GP7.

I think there were many Torpedo tube Geeps that other rr's have that have not been made. Also the Paducha Rebuilds would be a big hit too!

Rob,

I couldn't agree more, and let's acknowledge the pain and brain damage of trying to manufacture trains half a planet away, while coping with an ever changing Dollar value against other currencies, political upheaval, untrustworthy government officials on both sides of the Pacific, iffy shipping, as well as a host of other headaches that John Smith used to talk about....and all this on our behalf. We're the beneficiaries of all this trouble, and really...there are easier ways to make a living. So what's the takeaway here?.......Well, after having slept on the post I wrote last night and having applied liberal amounts of caffeine this morning, here's my take:         

First, we need more modelers in the Scale Camp, whether 2 rail or 3. That will come with time, but in the meanwhile, if you  would like to see "More, Better", then be your own ambassador for Scale Trains, 2 rail or 3. If you are reading this and think, "Nope, not me! I don't care!", that's quite alright. Just ignore my last statement. However, it is true....want "More, Better", you've have to keep asking for "More, Better".

Second, when someone like Scott offers "More, Better" then you have to step-up, keep your word and pay for "More, Better", and that includes not walking away from a reservation. Show appreciation through loyalty, and remember cheaper is not always better. An old cowboy saying goes roughly something like this, "New oats are $5/bushel, recycled ones....those are a bit cheaper." 

If Scott decides to do projects by deposit, I'm game, but I when I think about it, Transition Steam/1st Generation Diesel modelers are really no less of a risk for bolting to Brand M and Brand L than 3rd Gen Modelers for something less and cheaper. Bottom Line: If you make a reservation, make it your bond and honor it.  

If making a deposit, like 25%, will ensure that a Sunset SD40-2 or GP40-2 is made then I'm in. Actually, I'd be in for 2 or 3 of either model. I don't have a problem dropping $700 per locomotive on a premium model even with a plastic body.

Well if you really want people to dive in and pay the higher prices, you have to tempt them with stuff that is not available from another manufacturer. Whether it was poorly done or not, SD40, GP7 & 9's, H16-44, SD40T-2's...it's all out there, and a lot cheaper. How many more F units does this hobby need, at $700 a pop. Think outside the box just a bit. Let Lionel and MTH fill their catalogs with re-runs!

A little more outside the box - how about a small switcher (without a Belpaire firebox - everybody has done the PRR A5!).  I'm thinking an 0-4-0 or 0-6-0 (2-6-0??) with generic lines such as Atlas attempted with a slope back tender.   Great for those that want steam on a smaller layout. 

LAIDOFFSICK,

They are being tempted by something not available from Brand M and L: more accurate and crisper details, improved drive train, prototypical appearance, accurate paint scheme/color, etc. It's why some people buy brass models. As was said, there is nothing that Sunset can import that Brand M and Brand L can't rush to market as a cheaper and less than satisfying alternative to a prototypical scale model. So the difference in the $$$ is a better model. Some will ante up for that, others won't. What the former group is hoping to capture is enough reservations (and people willing to follow through on those reservations) so that the model can be made. Obviously, there weren't enough of said persons stepping up at this time to make the SD40-2 run a reality....however, that doesn't preclude another announcement that would garner enough reservations to carry the run, but the question must first be asked before the community can respond.   

I second CATNAP's statement - I would have no problem putting a deposit for SD40-2s or GP40-2s from Sunset.

Scott, if you have had a chance to read this thread, this may be the way to go for slow reservation models

Just my opinion but, deposits really don't help get a model into production at Sunset/3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot, if there are insufficient reservations/orders/deposits to begin with. I would venture to guess that even if, say 12 or 15 people paid full price in advance, such would NOT get that model into production.

In the case of the SD40-2, MTH and Lionel beat Sunset to the punch years ago even with inferior models that don't do the prototype justice. The problem is that most O-scalers are fine with these models and only a select few want something more.

Midwestern Models Works is offering an SD40-2 but at close to $3,000 I don't want one that bad. Luckily, Atlas makes a fantastic SD40. I have a couple and I look forward to adding a few more and these can be had for less than $500. I know it's not the same as a Dash 2 but the models share a similar look. Despite that, however, I would love to add a few SD40-2's that actually looked like the real thing and not like the toys that MTH and Lionel have been serving up for the past 15-20 years.

Hot Water posted:

Just my opinion but, deposits really don't help get a model into production at Sunset/3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot, if there are insufficient reservations/orders/deposits to begin with. I would venture to guess that even if, say 12 or 15 people paid full price in advance, such would NOT get that model into production.

More than your opinion HW. It is a fact. I recall at York years ago that some folks would complain about Sunset 3rd Rail taking money for reservations and not delivering. When I queried them they would say "well ABC says that a deposit is required so I paid ABC for my reservation."  Not true from Sunset - 3rd Rail's standpoint. Never has been and most likely never will be.

If a dealer says a deposit is required that is the dealer's option - not Scott's.

Now, as for the next dieseasel to be offered by Sunset I will say that plastic body units require about 500 or so units to be made. Brass requires about 150. Somewhere previous  in this post is the correct answer.

R. Heil  Sunset / 3rd Rail

Jim Scorse posted:

A little more outside the box - how about a small switcher (without a Belpaire firebox - everybody has done the PRR A5!).  I'm thinking an 0-4-0 or 0-6-0 (2-6-0??) with generic lines such as Atlas attempted with a slope back tender.   Great for those that want steam on a smaller layout. 

Atlas tried this with the ill-fated "Founders Series" USRA 0-6-0.

The one with the 3r/2r combined wheelsets.  Atlas answer to the "Proto 3:2" concept?

Forgive me for the "terminology gap" since I'm not a 3 rail modeler.  I know that the MTH is about swapping wheels and the Atlas was to use a wheel profile that fit both 3r and 2r applications.

Yeah, I'd LOVE an ALCo RS3 in brass with all the right "phases".   Sadly, seemingly unlikely as most are happy with the toy-like offerings the scale has to offer.  

Maybe we are back to the Tier 4's as being all the rage.

Hotwater,

RDUNNIII wrote, "The lack of reservations for the SD40-2 has made Scott wary of any "modern" locomotives. He would love to do a Tier 4, but if either Lionel or MTH announce one prior to delivery the dollars first crowd will walk away from their reservations so fast he won't be able to keep up with them. So the only possibility is deposit required reservations and he does not want to do that either and does not believe that will receive much support."

Hotwater wrote, "....deposits really don't help get a model into production at Sunset/3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot, if there are insufficient reservations/orders/deposits to begin with. I would venture to guess that even if, say 12 or 15 people paid full price in advance, such would NOT get that model into production."

Gentlemen,

One of you implies that Scott would not produce a "modern" diesel locomotive even if he had full reservations for fear that some/many would be lost if Lionel or MTH were announce the same model. The other implies that even if those reservations were guaranteed with $$$ (which supposedly Scott doesn't want to do) the model(s) would not be produced. Both of you imply that, by your comments,  you are "close" to the "Company".

I don't wish to offend anyone, but really?.....which is it?....or are you both implying that Scott would not make any of these models regardless of the circumstances and do either one of you claim to officially speak for the company when you make these statements or are these just your opinions, absent of fact, without any connection to Sunset/3rd Rail? Enquiring minds want to know!  

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

I would be interested in a  Torpedo Tube PRR GP7.

I think there were many Torpedo tube Geeps that other rr's have that have not been made.

That would be about the only Geep I would have interest in! Nice clean lines.

Simon

Mike and others, actually, once our customers reserve a model, if we don't delay too long, we don't lose reservations when another announces the same. Customers are not that fickle in my experience. But the reservations do tell the demand. If they come pouring in like the E5 and E6s, then there is a demand for a good quality scale model of these from us specifically. We just follow the orders. We already have 300 reservations for the E5/E6s and only 140 and holding for the SD40-2s. Why, just not enough people want to pay so much for a highly detailed SD40-2, that simple. Gotta find another modlel that people do want in mass.

As the world economy and ours heats up, commodity prices are sky rocketing over here (China). Yesterday I was told the cost of a solid brass steam engine frame has almost tripled from just 2 years ago. Here we go again. Korea is imposing a minimum wage increase of 17%, China not sure, but usually they are in the 20% range. It means everyone will be raising prices in 2018. If they are not, then they are eating these increases.

But you, as customers should just sit back and look for these items that make you excited for your hobby. And we will do our best to make them as exciting as possible at a reasonable price as possible. That's the name of the game these days.

Great Suggestions guys. Thank you so much. Keep them coming. We are listening.

Scott Mann - China

My perspective...a celebration by the USPS in 1999...

in which are 5 iconic engines pulling 5 name trains, storied, colorful, admired into the ages.

Among the 5 are 4 engines which have been modeled in O3R by not just one, but several different manufacturers, different proportions, multiple variations of technology, etc., etc., blah, blah.

And.....yet.....the ATSF E-1 diesel, perhaps THE most heralded diesel creation...engine AND artwork by EMC/Leland Knickerbocker...of the so-called transition era, has NEVER been done in O3R....nor has its concurrent sibling, the B&O EA, surviving at the Baltimore museum to this day.

It really does baffle this common man in this hobby how this engine....this pair of engines...(and perhaps other variants based on the EMC industrial artists' creations to entice other railroads to consider purchase)....has been set aside as something too insignificant in the scheme of railroad history for the O3R market???  And, no.....E6's are NOT the same, good enough, adequate, sufficient....whatever the rationale.   At least as weighed against common criticism for all the other 'near-misses' or 'successful' O3R representations for the other 4 engines in the "All Aboard" stamp celebration.

Someone in another thread response on this same topic suggested (in effect) I get out my collection of chisels, flat b__st__rd files, masking tape, paint brushes, etc., and make my own EMC E1 from an E6.   Brilliant.  I'm sure this approach would solve a lot of frustrations for manufacturers gazing into their crystal balls.  We're all so willing and able to scratch build or bash to achieve our dreams.  It's such a useful answer for all such dreams, isn't it?

Nope.  In the meantime I've spent some $$$ buying THE most incredible HO models of the EMC E1 and EA (latter coming soon) from Broadway LImited....Sound, DCC, accurate-to-the-nines in detail and paint/finish...and will prominently/proudly display them between runs-by-invitation on friends' HO layouts.  

So, just some ruminating thoughts...

Meanwhile, back at the ranch....

Mike Caddell posted:

Gentlemen,

One of you implies that Scott would not produce a "modern" diesel locomotive even if he had full reservations for fear that some/many would be lost if Lionel or MTH were announce the same model. The other implies that even if those reservations were guaranteed with $$$ (which supposedly Scott doesn't want to do) the model(s) would not be produced. Both of you imply that, by your comments,  you are "close" to the "Company".

I don't wish to offend anyone, but really?.....which is it?....or are you both implying that Scott would not make any of these models regardless of the circumstances and do either one of you claim to officially speak for the company when you make these statements or are these just your opinions, absent of fact, without any connection to Sunset/3rd Rail? Enquiring minds want to know!  

Here is a radical thought, and I'm not trying to be a wise guy: Why not ask Scott himself?

Simon

Scott,

Agreed! and Thanks for listening and clarifying. Keep up the good work!

Some Exciting News Regarding the PAs:

We are adding operating (Manually) Louvers on the sides of each unit. They are actually built up from 20 or so brass pieces.  Interesting note, my father imported O Scale PAs in the 1980s and they too had manual louvers.

We will be putting 2 Rail pilots and Kadee mounts in every 3 Rail box.  SF and D&H models will have stainless steel panels (Nickel Plated Brass) applied as we have done in the past, not sprayed on, and the rain gutters will also be made of the same material, applied separately. That's something you don't get from anyone else.

We will make these mounts standard equipment on all our future Diesel offerings. The Alco PAs are going into production now and should be done in January or February. Looking forward to posting pictures of this fine scale offering as they are completed. Reservations are full, but as always people sometimes have to drop out, and that means stand by reservations get those models.  And yes, we never require a deposit, but some dealers do. More later.

Regards,

Scott Mann - China

Hey Scott, can you make sure there are enough 2.5mm screws in each loco to attache the Kadee mounts. All of my F7's were 2 screws short

How about an ALCO FA1, only Williams made one the shell is OK, but the trucks are terrible.

FA is definitely on the radar.

Matt, we can discuss off line how to better supply customers with these.

Scott

Grand Canyon Railroad FPA-4's

You gotta love the electrical power plant.

Mike CT posted:

 

You gotta love the electrical power plant.

 

Which is rebuilt from an ex-VIA steam generator car similar to this one:

Rusty

My top suggestion..................GP40-2

Regards, 

Swafford

Scott, Fantastic news all around on the PA's!  Look forward to these enticing enhancements! 

DKDKRD,

I disagree on the E1.    I do agree that it is a very significant locomotive, you are right about that.    But as a model railroader, rather than a collector, I am only interested in models of locomotives that ran the railroad that I model.    I don't have the space or resources to buy stuff that does not fit what I am doing.    In my case it is the Pennsylvania RR.    And given space considerations, I need to stay with smaller stuff.    I think passenger Sharks and Centipedes are neat and PRR had them, but those big 6 axle units would dwarf my passenger trains and my layout.    So I stay away from them too.    I like to look at Santa Fe stuff in photos, but I would not be the least interested in a Santa Fe model.   

I kind of wonder if many model railroaders think that way.

I would like to see something nobody has done yet  Like an SDP-45 , Alco HH660, or a baby face

How many railroads had SDP-45s?

Matt Makens posted:

How many railroads had SDP-45s?

Well, technically the Erie Lackawanna SDP45 units were not REALLY full SDP45s, i.e. they did NOT have steam generators back there in the long hood. The E-L ordered them in order to get bigger fuel tanks, as the SDP version had a longer underframe than the standard SD45, which was all they wanted. Thus, in order to get a larger fuel tank, EMD made them a "special" SDP45 without all the passenger stuff.

Anyway, just from memory, the railroads that purchased REAL EMD SDP45 units were SP and GN. Can't remember any others.

Mike Caddell posted:

LAIDOFFSICK,

They are being tempted by something not available from Brand M and L: more accurate and crisper details, improved drive train, prototypical appearance, accurate paint scheme/color, etc. It's why some people buy brass models. As was said, there is nothing that Sunset can import that Brand M and Brand L can't rush to market as a cheaper and less than satisfying alternative to a prototypical scale model. So the difference in the $$$ is a better model. Some will ante up for that, others won't. What the former group is hoping to capture is enough reservations (and people willing to follow through on those reservations) so that the model can be made. Obviously, there weren't enough of said persons stepping up at this time to make the SD40-2 run a reality....however, that doesn't preclude another announcement that would garner enough reservations to carry the run, but the question must first be asked before the community can respond.   

Well then why were the Santa Fe Hudsons cancelled twice? now the SD40s? Obviously crisper details on models that are already out there just isn't enough when it comes to several hundred dollars more. 

sdmann posted:

Some Exciting News Regarding the PAs:

We are adding operating (Manually) Louvers on the sides of each unit. They are actually built up from 20 or so brass pieces.  Interesting note, my father imported O Scale PAs in the 1980s and they too had manual louvers.

We will be putting 2 Rail pilots and Kadee mounts in every 3 Rail box.  SF and D&H models will have stainless steel panels (Nickel Plated Brass) applied as we have done in the past, not sprayed on, and the rain gutters will also be made of the same material, applied separately. That's something you don't get from anyone else.

We will make these mounts standard equipment on all our future Diesel offerings. The Alco PAs are going into production now and should be done in January or February. Looking forward to posting pictures of this fine scale offering as they are completed. Reservations are full, but as always people sometimes have to drop out, and that means stand by reservations get those models.  And yes, we never require a deposit, but some dealers do. More later.

Regards,

Scott Mann - China

That is excellent news!

Swafford,

I was wondering when you were going to "wade" in. Excellent choices along with B&O and C&O! SP had -2, along with GP40X and GP40P. Go Cotton Belt! I believe that DRGW units had small lettering as well as large although I could be wrong. The small lettering might have been GP40 only. So many road names and variations.

ATSF and UP had a few GP40X's

MKT "Katy" GP39-2 would be sweet! 

Regards, Swafford

GP50 would be nice too!

Regards, Swafford

Hot Water posted:

Matt Makens posted:

How many railroads had SDP-45s?

Well, technically the Erie Lackawanna SDP45 units were not REALLY full SDP45s, i.e. they did NOT have steam generators back there in the long hood. The E-L ordered them in order to get bigger fuel tanks, as the SDP version had a longer underframe than the standard SD45, which was all they wanted. Thus, in order to get a larger fuel tank, EMD made them a "special" SDP45 without all the passenger stuff.

Anyway, just from memory, the railroads that purchased REAL EMD SDP45 units were SP and GN. Can't remember any others.

MMW could only get sufficient reservations to do the SP version.  And I think I have a significant percentage of those reserved.

As I recall EL also had SD45-2s with the larger fuel tank MMW might have included that version or the NS heritage rebuilt version done in EL colors.

I think the 150 reservations, or 500 or whatever, is to some extent price=point driven.     In other words, if the importer wants to sell at a certain price, he basis his build/reservations on however many units he needs to hit economy of scale to maintain that price.     So if the importer is willing to let the cost float to whatever it takes (and therefore the selling price), he can build a much smaller batch.     On the other hand, if he thinks they won't sell if he has to price them above a certain point, he has to build a bigger batch.

Scott Mann has alluded to this in some of his comments about the business.    

I believe that applies much more to the brass models as these are hand built and much more skilled labor intensive, the reason MMW is able to offer as few as 3 pieces of a particular rd name/variation [obviously this is reflected in the ultimate pricing of such short run models], in the plastic models Scott has stressed at least 20 of a particular rd name with a limited detail variation from the main tooling, paint work and lettering is also a factor in short runs. 

Swafford,

Awe, Yes! Tiger Stripes!  Go BIG and GREEN! I think very little tooling would be necessary to create the GP50 from the 40-2. What a huge, huge gap in O scale could be filled with production of both models. Maybe a big run of GP40-2 would nudge Atlas into another run of GP60/M/Bs. Maybe even some fantasy roads. Love those Katy Colors!

645

I'd consider some late SDP40Fs for my OMI SuperLiner Cars. I'm certainly no expert, but I think they, and the FP45, got a raw deal from Amtrak over supposed derailing issues. 

Mike Caddell posted:

Swafford,

I'm certainly no expert, but I think they, and the FP45, got a raw deal from Amtrak over supposed derailing issues. 

I don't recall derailing issues with FP45's on either the Santa Fe or Milwaukee Road.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

Mike Caddell posted:

Swafford,

I'm certainly no expert, but I think they, and the FP45, got a raw deal from Amtrak over supposed derailing issues. 

I don't recall derailing issues with FP45's on either the Santa Fe or Milwaukee Road.

Rusty

Rusty is correct. The "derailment issues", on the BN and Family Lines, was eventually proven to be directly related to the poorly maintained, light weight baggage car coupled directly behind the DDP40F units. Especially on bag track! One site visited around Lincoln, Nebraska on the BN, after an Amtrak "derailment", we could reach down any pull any spike we wanted out of the ties, BY HAND! The BN folks sure didn't like THAT, when then saw what we were doing. At the time, the BN management overreacted at slapped a 50 MPH speed restriction on all the Amtrak trains with SDP40F units, yet the BN had over 200 or so SD40-2 units of the same design, with the same HT-C Trucks, and some units were even heavier than the SDP40F, and no speed restriction was placed on their own units. Naturally, the BN quickly became the laughing stock in the railroad industry, and very quietly removed the speed restriction, after some time.

I think a brass builders minimum order quantity would be 40 to 50 models. Brass can be done in such smaller runs as the tooling to build brass models is much different with the majority of parts being 3d printed wax for lost wax castings. and stamped sheet brass sides or etched metal sides and what not. Plastic models require a fairly expensive mold be cut and each plastic part requires its own mold. Making a 2nd run loco with flat nose would require a new mold for the cab or nose.

Here's a primer, 101 for importing plastic or Brass Models.

Plastic Moulds: They start at $20,000 for a simple 1 type car size mould. The moulds for the body of the SD79 types have 4 large parts, die cast side frames, this and that, and the moulds cost nearly $40,000. That's before you make anything.  Outch.  If you only make 150 units, that $40,000 / 150 = $266 / unit tooling cost. So you really need 500 units to make the numbers work especially for a first run. The chassis, electronics, assembly and painting all add to the factory unit costs. Painting and lettering needs to be planned, designed and produced. Not to mention the design fee for all the moulds, parts and decals. Money is outlayed for 9 to 12 months before a single unit is sold. If you have 3-4 projects running at once, have a good bank with at least 500K credit line.  And do go to the factory every couple of months to make sure your investment is going into making models and not buying furniture or cars. Got some stories to tell there.

Brass Models:  Here, the tooling is included in the Factory's unit cost. They order master patterns for each casting needed from their own subs. They order some tools for making the driver wheel centers as they coined in brass. The rest are brass etchings, forming tools and assembly tools which are disposable and changeable. But the factory has a minimum price they need for 3 months overhead. Usually that's about $120 - $150 K.  And there is the cost of designing the loco and all the detailed parts which is about $15,000. Divide that by 150 models, you get the picture, each unit costs $1150. Add electronics, added versions, freight, repairs, damages, our own overhead needs and we get models that cost $1500 to $2000 to the consumer. Not all models are sold at once. It takes at least 3 months to sell what was reserved. If extras are purchased to get the factory the number they require, they can sit in stock for several years waiting to be turned to cash for overhead. It's a tough business... Some projects are home runs, some are slow goers. So you have to keep the ball rolling to stay afloat. Delays in production are disappointments to our customers, but they down right painful for our business.

It's tough, hair pulling frustrating, corrections, extra costs, delays, builder problems it's very challenging. But I wouldn't be happy doing anything else. I have to keep reminding myself of the alternatives. So with ever increasing costs, hardball negotiations of each project,   6 month time horizon that you can't see beyond, it's a very rewarding business, and the people that I meet along the way from customers to builders to helpers, has been well worth it. Time goes by very quickly and I've been doing this for 20 years now.  I think I will keep going as long as I can find projects people want us to make.

So that's why I always end my rants with, "Enjoy your hobby." For you this is your recreation." And we know this. Mine was model airplanes. So I get it. It takes you away from that stressful world outside and transports you to your own world that you created and control.  It's a great hobby, and I love the history involved in it too.

Enjoy your hobby...

Scott Mann - China

645 posteded

On a model of a cowl unit like the SDP40F I would think the nose would be part of the entire shell. Not as easy as changing a nose on say a standard SD40-2 and a "snoot" (extended length nose) version. Of course this would also depend on how the tooling was designed to allow for variants like this.

In time I hope to see a SDP40F in O but know I can't hold my breath either - LOL!

Athearn is doing it somehow in HO.

Rusty

maybe a rerun for the SD7/9

first run the SD-9 is done for the Rio Grande, sadly the SD-7 was canceled

looking forward to see a SD-7  with a more modern painting.

Cor

645 posteded

Originally posted by Scott Mann:

 If you have 3-4 projects running at once, have a good bank with at least 500K credit line.  And do go to the factory
every couple of months to make sure your investment is going into making models and not buying furniture or cars.
Got some stories to tell there.

WOW! Those stories have got to be good... like the Bob Smith ones formerly of Pecos River Brass! May give some insights as to what pitfalls awaited some former importers like Right of Way Industries, Aristo-Craft, Etc.

Please Scott! PLEASE DO TELL!!! [In Generic Terms] I and others don't want to offend the current factories that are making our stuff now! You just never know who knows who!

Originally posted by Matt Makens:

How many railroads had SDP-45s?

Several :

• EL [ 2 PAint Schemes]
• CR [2 Paint Schemes]
• NS
• SP [Kodachrome?]
• GN
• BN

Rusty Traque posted:

645 posteded

On a model of a cowl unit like the SDP40F I would think the nose would be part of the entire shell. Not as easy as changing a nose on say a standard SD40-2 and a "snoot" (extended length nose) version. Of course this would also depend on how the tooling was designed to allow for variants like this.

In time I hope to see a SDP40F in O but know I can't hold my breath either - LOL!

Athearn is doing it somehow in HO.

Rusty

Unfortunately getting in the area of 2000 units sold in O isn't possible anymore out of a single run.  HO and H have the advantage and recent offerings sometimes have me wondering why I switched to O.  Sometimes ..... not often.

sdmann posted:

So that's why I always end my rants with, "Enjoy your hobby." For you this is your recreation." And we know this. Mine was model airplanes. So I get it. It takes you away from that stressful world outside and transports you to your own world that you created and control.  It's a great hobby, and I love the history involved in it too.

Enjoy your hobby...

Scott Mann - China

Scott,

I'll need to tell you my new hobby offline after some of the adventures of the "process" and I only know a portion of it!

Best to you on your current Chinese adventure.

As delivered there were only 2 railroads the SP an The GN. The EL had a variant that did not have the steam generator like Jack said do it was a freight loco. So only 2 railroads had em which then became 2 merged railroads.

The SP had em painted in bloody nose. I wouldn’t qualify 6 railroads as lots

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

Originally posted by Matt Makens:

How many railroads had SDP-45s?

Several :

• EL [ 2 PAint Schemes]
• CR [2 Paint Schemes]

Remember that neither of these were REALLY SDP45 units, as the EL, and then later Conrail, did NOT have steam generators in the long hood, thus the rear roof details would be different.

• NS

Same info here, as these were originally E-L units, i.e. no steam generators.

• SP [Kodachrome?]
• GN
• BN

645 posted:

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

Originally posted by Matt Makens:

How many railroads had SDP-45s?

Several :

• EL [ 2 PAint Schemes]
• CR [2 Paint Schemes]
• NS
• SP [Kodachrome?]
• GN
• BN

Don't forget that GN / BN also had the SDP40. NdeM also purchased the SDP40 as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_SDP40

Erik (Midwestern Model Works) is planning on adding the SDP40 to the SD40 project. 

I've discussed brass SDP40F/FP45s with Scott and that $150K bottom line is there.  There is a possibility of 75 FPs and 75 SDPs, if the builder would agree, as I would sponsor the SDPs but someone else will have to sponsor the FPs.  Anyone willing to risk $75K and get done what you want and maybe make a few dollars if they all get sold?

GK would be glad to do these for 75k he needs a builder.

Bob

Scott,

  How about the SD60's?  Only Lionel did this engine and it was poorly done, it has big gaps and hi-riding fuel tanks just to name a few problems.    This engine was available in plenty of roadnames and in my opinion is a great looking engine.  I also like the SD40-2 but currently I have 4 of the new Lionel SD40s so I'm not real interested in the SD40-2.  However, I would much rather an SD60 and I would be in for at least a couple.

I would go for either 2 CSX or Norfolk Southern SD60's.

For a lot of us with smaller space, the SD40 was appealing but a bit too large. A good 4-axle unit fits the bill like the GP40s.

However, I always have to put a plug in for the CF-7. Perhaps it has some commonality, chassis model-wise, with the F7s already tooled?

I also am intrigued by something a bot different and smaller Alco's like the C430, C424/25, or RS27 are somewhat exotic. The first two have more possible roads including contemporary short lines -- same as the CF-7s.

Just my 2 cents...

I've been waiting for someone to do an U50 not a U50c in O scale. Its just a Veranda Turbine frame and trucks with a different shell.

sdmann posted:

So that's why I always end my rants with, "Enjoy your hobby." For you this is your recreation." And we know this. Mine was model airplanes. So I get it. It takes you away from that stressful world outside and transports you to your own world that you created and control.  It's a great hobby, and I love the history involved in it too.

Enjoy your hobby...

Scott Mann - China

Scott,

Always enjoy your candid information. And have seen many a man cry when his big R/C plane connects back with the earth at an incompatible angle and speed!

How  about a Baby Train Master?

A smaller engine used by more than a few roads.  Reservations would dictate if this foray into the competitive small market would work.

Norm

Norm,

I agree.  I like the FM H-16-44.  Is this the one you mean?

Ed

Didn't Lionel do at least a decent version of the H16-44 or H15-44?  I know it's been a few years and it leaves out the 2 rail community.  I seem to recall it was actually an okay model.  I'd love one in CNJ as it would be great for short commuter trains running down the shore.

The CF7 is a good suggestion!

Jonathan,

I really prefer Sunset diesels with the horizontal motor to the China drives.  I also believe than the detail on the Sunsets is better.  

Ed

Ed Kelly posted:

Jonathan,

I really prefer Sunset diesels with the horizontal motor to the China drives.  I also believe than the detail on the Sunsets is better.  

Ed

Ed,

I am with you 100% considering I have had a role in every diesel Sunset has done since 2011 starting with the E7.    I'm very biased towards the quality of the product.

Originally posted by Rich Battista:

 How about the SD60's?  Only Lionel did this engine and it was poorly done, it has big gaps and hi-riding fuel tanks just to name a few problems. 

So did MTH.

Yes MTH did an SD60.  I have one that will be a donor for my E60MA project using the BDR shell.   Future project someday.

I love my 3rd Rail diesels. When running in consist they run spectacularly smooth and im always impressed at the slow speed operation

OK.  I stand corrected.  But I didn't think Railking counted here.  lol.  Seriously though, I really wanted an SD60 and couldn't convince myself to buy the Railking, just not enough detail and too much work to fix up.  I did buy the Lionel, and quickly turned around and sold it after a failed attempt to replace the fuel tank.  Again, too much work, not enough detail.  So I really think those engines from MTH and Lionel have not satisfied the market for an SD60, particularly the 3RS market and of course 2-rail.   So Jonathan, is this engine a possibility or not much chance?

Ive got MTH Premier SD50's and they are beautiful

Rich,

If there was a way to get up to the 500+ range of units on this locomotive, It would certainly be a go.  There is no bias as to what model Sunset would like to produce or not produce, it just comes down to reservations.   

Ten roads purchased the original version.  Then there are of course some oddball paint schemes when some went into lease service.  The SD60F is probably too much of a tooling change, but the SD60I and SD60M might be possible to increase the number of roads and provide variation for roads that bought both.  I'm not aware of many modifications made to the base model, but I'm sure you and others could enlighten me on any road specific mods. 

I agree the MTH one is old tooling and that is why mine, which was an auction bargain to start is going to a new purpose.  Both MTH and Lionel also came out with their version of the SD60E recently.  Not sure, that variation would be viable at this point or not. 

Jonathan,

   Understood.  I'm sure its hard to get the reservations you need for these higher end models, but they are worth it.  The E8s I just bought sold me on 3rdRail diesels with the quality and performance.  I would really like to see that same quality and performance in an SD60.  As Matt pointed out, MTH's premier SD50 are very nice and I guess very similar to the SD60 and may affect your reservations, but they have not run the 2-rail version in about 6yrs.  Unfortunately, the last attempt 3yrs ago and they canceled the 2-rail version.  That's a bad sign, but 3RS has gained more popularity since then, plus 3rdrail engines are more detailed, run smoother, are more 3RS friendly with hi-rail wheels and fixed pilots options, so I think they will do better.  Who knows?  If you make SD60's I'll buy.

Rich

GG1 4877 posted:

The CF7

Gosh, just say no!

Well,

I guess the idea of a Baby Train Master is not so good since so few were produced and only a couple of roads bought them.

Norm

Thanks for the clarification.

My vote still goes for the FM H-16-44 and the Train Master, of course.

Ed

Well, after those FAs (ABBA in Pennsy for me), maybe some C-Liners to round out the first generation? 

I could see FAs being a great seller. They wore lots of of interesting colors.

Now about those drop-in P:48 wheel sets?

The baby T-M is trivially easy for the K-Line.  You take an inch out of the long hood at a very specific joint, and slightly more than an inch out of the steel underframe. Join the hood with normal plastic methods, and join the frame with non-conducting stringers.  Now you are in position to insulate the trucks for 2-rail operation, if you wish.

Laidoffsick posted:

Well if you really want people to dive in and pay the higher prices, you have to tempt them with stuff that is not available from another manufacturer. Whether it was poorly done or not, SD40, GP7 & 9's, H16-44, SD40T-2's...it's all out there, and a lot cheaper. How many more F units does this hobby need, at $700 a pop. Think outside the box just a bit. Let Lionel and MTH fill their catalogs with re-runs!

Right there. SDL-39.

Dick

Now these are cool...

What do you mean by big gaps in the SD60? 

Bruk posted:

I've been waiting for someone to do an U50 not a U50c in O scale. Its just a Veranda Turbine frame and trucks with a different shell.

Doing a sound set for that would probably be a different story.

Mike Caddell posted:

This came up in the Tier 4 Locomotive discussion yesterday so I'm opening it up as a new topic. While I don't know the whole story, it would seem that SD40-2 reservations were sluggish so there will be a new announcement after the holidays. What will it be? The decision has already been made, obviously, or else no announcement, right? So as we, as a collective group, love to ponder and speculate, here's your chance to put in your twenty five cents (I'm allowing for inflation and a weak dollar). Maybe somebody actually knows and will let the truth slip! Remember, the decision's been most likely made so this is more about guessing what Scott is thinking rather than your "hoped" for production. As for myself, after thinking about all the 3 rail releases in the last 5 years and what hasn't been produced (remember, I'm a confessed loud mouthed 2 rail advocate), I've come up with my short list of what Scott might have decided to do. Any project is going to be a shared 2 rail/3 rail project that would be of moderate to high interest. So here is my guess....what about yours?

F-9/FP-9,  GP20,  GP40-2/GP40P/GP40X,  SD24/SD26  SD40T-2/SD45T-2/SD45-2 (can you ever have enough Tunnel motors?)/SD45B,  F45/FP45,  Amtrak AMD103/P40/P42

My money would be on the F-9/FP-9 just because seems a natural follow-on to Scott's F-7/FP-7 project, and I confess that a lot of people model that time period. What ever it's going to be, if you want it, don't hang back, support your local importer with reservations!  

If a P42 was done by them, that would mean Superliners beyond the quality of K-Line which would be something to see. 
Since they already have access to Santa Fe Hi-Levels, I could see a Coast Starlight set release with 2 P42s in Phase V, and cars in IVb. Would be a very long set though with a baggage, 4 sleepers, the Parlour car, a diner, the Sightseer Lounge, and 4 coaches. 

Now sure, MTH is sort of doing this already, but the quality is nowhere near what this would offer. The cars would probably sell for ludicrous prices on the second hand market after a couple years if they were to be made. 

falconservice posted:

What do you mean by big gaps in the SD60? 

I'm referring to the gaps in the pilots vs having say a kinematic pilot or a fixed pilot like the MTH 2-rail versions.  This includes gaps around the coupler.  To fix the pilot you need to add fill which is a pain and doesn't always look right.  These aren't any worse than any other 3-rail diesels I just prefer to buy the MTH 2-rail engines with fixed pilot or 3rdrail engines and use the 2-rail pilot.  

 

I guess the idea of a Baby Train Master is not so good since so few were produced and only a couple of roads bought them.

Gosh, silly me.....And here all along I thought that Sunset 3rd Rail was the one manufacturer we could place our hope in for items we dream of having in O3R whose 1:1's fell into this category.

Well, thanks!  

Now I better understand their recent announcement of the Virginian EL-2B Electric!!!

So, we're looking for something in the high volume, every-railroad-and-their-subsequent-mergers bought one, fairly standardized design with few structural/detail variants, and the Orange/Purple/Blue guys haven't made one...or more....or several....versions yet?

Hmmmmmm........

This may take more than one cup of joe this morning....

The coast starlight isnt that long my El Capitan is 14 cars I think and that is an awesome train. My daylight train is 10 cars but I wish that was 14 as well.

Matt Makens posted:

The coast starlight isnt that long my El Capitan is 14 cars I think and that is an awesome train. My daylight train is 10 cars but I wish that was 14 as well.

14 cars? Dear god that's almost 25 feet long

Plus 4 F7's its up there in length but its such a cool train.

what about a whitecomb  65DE19

build and transported to europe

worked in Italy and the netherlands

shipped back to the USA and put to work for severall companys

a real piece off history, and probaly some models will be going to europe again

Cor

Matt Makens posted:

Plus 4 F7's its up there in length but its such a cool train.

I'd imagine so. I highly considered getting a Hi-Level lounge for myself but missed my chance and I don't exactly have $2300 laying around to get the entire set. Wish they would make more than they do in the limited runs. 379, while very expensive, shouldn't be too bad if I ever manage to get a lounge. I wish Sunset's website was more accurate.

I bought an extra lounge, I may consider letting it go

Matt Makens posted:

I bought an extra lounge, I may consider letting it go

If you're serious about that I would be more than happy to take it off your hands. I should have the cash for one in a couple weeks. Would make an amazing Christmas present. 

Let me mull it over. Its out at the farm right now on the layout and I'm not going hunting again until Dec. 7th which is perfect cuz I over worked the dog last time and she needs time to recover. Ill decide by then

Matt Makens posted:

Let me mull it over. Its out at the farm right now on the layout and I'm not going hunting again until Dec. 7th which is perfect cuz I over worked the dog last time and she needs time to recover. Ill decide by then

Ok sounds good to me.

GenesisFan99 posted:

Matt Makens posted:

The coast starlight isnt that long my El Capitan is 14 cars I think and that is an awesome train. My daylight train is 10 cars but I wish that was 14 as well.

14 cars? Dear god that's almost 25 feet long

You should measure my 12 Atlas Zephyr powered by 2 Sunset E7s and I threw in an Amtrak box car, it's about 35' long.

Dick

I think the Krauss Maffeis would make great candidates for brass models. Between SP and RG modelers each getting two units or more a 150 unit run is not crazy thinking...plus they are awesome and unique! 

GenesisFan99 posted:

Bruk posted:

I've been waiting for someone to do an U50 not a U50c in O scale. Its just a Veranda Turbine frame and trucks with a different shell.

Doing a sound set for that would probably be a different story.

It has dual FDL-16's. I don't see how that could be an issue, it would just have two start up sounds laid over each other. But I would just rip out the TMCC and add DCC with either ESU or Soundtracks decoders.  If MTH did it I would leave it alone...if they did it right on the sound.

SANTIAGOP23 posted:

Now these are cool...

I would order these in a heart beat. I missed it when Atlas did them....

SANTIAGOP23 posted:

I think the Krauss Maffeis would make great candidates for brass models. Between SP and RG modelers each getting two units or more a 150 unit run is not crazy thinking...plus they are awesome and unique! 

 

Not my cup of tea but I'd venture to say these would be a great seller.  

Unusual or unique things sell well in this hobby. 

Rule292 posted:

SANTIAGOP23 posted:

I think the Krauss Maffeis would make great candidates for brass models. Between SP and RG modelers each getting two units or more a 150 unit run is not crazy thinking...plus they are awesome and unique! 

 

Not my cup of tea but I'd venture to say these would be a great seller.  

Unusual or unique things sell well in this hobby. 

thats a nice option as well, i go for one or two A engines Rio Grande

Cor

moonlicht posted:

Rule292 posted:

SANTIAGOP23 posted:

I think the Krauss Maffeis would make great candidates for brass models. Between SP and RG modelers each getting two units or more a 150 unit run is not crazy thinking...plus they are awesome and unique! 

 

Not my cup of tea but I'd venture to say these would be a great seller.  

Unusual or unique things sell well in this hobby. 

thats a nice option as well, i go for one or two A engines Rio Grande

 

Cor

Many years ago there was a great article on the KMs in Trains magazine I think it was. It was titled something like "When the Rio Grande went to Rochester".  It described the KMs testing on the NYC. 

They had a few teething problems and they had clearance issues in third rail territory. It mentioned maintenance requirements and the time required to stop and reverse directions as the biggest issues with the Voith transmissions.

Rule292 posted:

moonlicht posted:

Rule292 posted:

SANTIAGOP23 posted:

I think the Krauss Maffeis would make great candidates for brass models. Between SP and RG modelers each getting two units or more a 150 unit run is not crazy thinking...plus they are awesome and unique! 

 

Not my cup of tea but I'd venture to say these would be a great seller.  

Unusual or unique things sell well in this hobby. 

thats a nice option as well, i go for one or two A engines Rio Grande

 

Cor

Many years ago there was a great article on the KMs in Trains magazine I think it was. It was titled something like "When the Rio Grande went to Rochester".  It described the KMs testing on the NYC. 

They had a few teething problems and they had clearance issues in third rail territory. It mentioned maintenance requirements and the time required to stop and reverse directions as the biggest issues with the Voith transmissions.

 

 

found this web page, a lot off information about these magnificent engines

http://sp9010.ncry.org/index.htm

i hope somebody is going to produce them

Cor

I agree with the suggestions for a GP-7/9 series.  I went through at least three imported brass models before I finally got an Oriental import that ran well.  I also tried an Atlas  GP, but it ran like a scalded rabbit.  We really do need GPs that run as well as Scott's other diesels.

I'm in for the Krause Maffe I'm shure it would be a winner 

Wes Morgenstern posted:

I agree with the suggestions for a GP-7/9 series.  I went through at least three imported brass models before I finally got an Oriental import that ran well.  I also tried an Atlas  GP, but it ran like a scalded rabbit.  We really do need GPs that run as well as Scott's other diesels.

In 2-rail? Really? A friend has one that we have moving smoothly at ~.8 smph. And, that is with the original QSI Quantum decoder. The new ones coming have ESU Loksound, from which I expect even better motor control.

Anywho, my big prediction ... lol .... is for a 4 axle 1st generation diesel, with undecorated version options. I'll spring for two of these expensive engines.

moonlicht posted:

Rule292 posted:

moonlicht posted:

Rule292 posted:

SANTIAGOP23 posted:

I think the Krauss Maffeis would make great candidates for brass models. Between SP and RG modelers each getting two units or more a 150 unit run is not crazy thinking...plus they are awesome and unique! 

 

Not my cup of tea but I'd venture to say these would be a great seller.  

Unusual or unique things sell well in this hobby. 

thats a nice option as well, i go for one or two A engines Rio Grande

 

Cor

Many years ago there was a great article on the KMs in Trains magazine I think it was. It was titled something like "When the Rio Grande went to Rochester".  It described the KMs testing on the NYC. 

They had a few teething problems and they had clearance issues in third rail territory. It mentioned maintenance requirements and the time required to stop and reverse directions as the biggest issues with the Voith transmissions.

 

 

found this web page, a lot off information about these magnificent engines

http://sp9010.ncry.org/index.htm

i hope somebody is going to produce them

Cor

Marty - you forgot to press the "reply with quote" button.

I would be quite interested in a KM-4000, especially the DR&G version.  However, how would Sunset or any other manufacturer approach the sound set, i.e. the Maybach V16 diesel and Voith transmission? Has it been done in other scales? 

looks like there is one to get sound samples from

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xL5hgwK5EP4

Cor

did a search, looks like the german V-160 had the same engine as the ML-4000, also with a hydraulic voith system

ESU has this sound in its libery, looks to me that it is a posibility for a sound decoder 

Cor

Any one know when this new diesel will be announced? I feel a little stressed waiting and wondering how much longer can this go on?

Bruk posted:

GenesisFan99 posted:

Bruk posted:

I've been waiting for someone to do an U50 not a U50c in O scale. Its just a Veranda Turbine frame and trucks with a different shell.

Doing a sound set for that would probably be a different story.

It has dual FDL-16's. I don't see how that could be an issue, it would just have two start up sounds laid over each other. But I would just rip out the TMCC and add DCC with either ESU or Soundtracks decoders.  If MTH did it I would leave it alone...if they did it right on the sound.

Well in that case, then it wouldn't be an issue however depending on the horn and bell that could be a bit harder for sound techs to find.

Only 23 built......this would be perfect

I need a GP40-2 diesel-electric locomotive in the 1980's Grand Trunk Western scheme and the DTI road number. 

Andrew

1950 or 1990 ..... eastern roads or western roads .... 2-axle trucks or 3-axle trucks ..... zebra stripes or tiger stripes or toothpaste stripes, or even basic blue ..... everybody  loves the ornery looking and sounding RS-3/5's. They'd sell like hotcakes. 

Come on, Jonathan!! Before I have to commit my funds elsewhere.

For me it would have to be a set of GE EVOs ES 40-44 series or newer Gevos to invest in Scotts product, these started in 2002-2003 so most RRs have them either new or second hand,as a long time 2 railer MTHs models don't cut it for me although they look impressive sitting in my dealers showcase [Just Trains]. JMO

I'd be very interested in some nicely-detailed Amtrak equipment. Superliners would sell like hotcakes because we all know that K Line cars are impossible to find and Lionel cars aren't long enough.

All these other ideas are cool though. Krauss-Maffei seems like an interesting idea.

GenesisFan99 posted:

I'd be very interested in some nicely-detailed Amtrak equipment. Superliners would sell like hotcakes because we all know that K Line cars are impossible to find and Lionel cars aren't long enough.

All these other ideas are cool though. Krauss-Maffei seems like an interesting idea.

It does seem like the biggest or the oddest seem to sell well.   Lots of Big Boys, Cab Forwards and H8's  and only a handful of small steam.   Things like the PRR mikados were slow sellers and even the GPM ten wheelers, which are state of the art,  really don't command premium prices.

F and E units seem to buck this trend, maybe because the streamliner is the archetypal diesel.   Hard not to like warbonnets and just about everything looks good on an E or F unit.

it segues into one of my pet peeves in that we ought to have the common things done in perfection first before we buy the oddballs.  But then again what fun would model railroading be if it weren't for the fun things instead of the mundane. 

The KM surely takes the cake here and it might even have some global appeal if the German version could be made alongside the US version.

Yep, no love for the grunt on the RR, the SD40-2 or their "modern" GE counterpart ESs.   Think Rodney and "I can't get no respect". 

If you believe something will sell well you are encouraged to contact Scott and sponsor the run.  He is constantly asking people in several venues how many they will reserve if he makes X.  So far the most successful in that attempt was the SD40-2 and it is obvious all of those "you'll sell all you make" people are wrong.  Just plain flat wrong.   You are especially wrong with regards to Amtrak.  When he does Amtrak of anything reservations and sales are less than 5%, much less actually,  of the total.  And I know because I have sponsored some Amtrak and have a hard time selling them.  He still has 2 Amtrak 3-rail E8s, as of a week or so ago, that the reserver backed out of and have had no takers in months.

And for those that complain " I don't buy the cars because there is no locomotive" or "I don't buy the locomotive because there are no cars" they are also the biggest complainers if he makes a set with both because that costs too much.  The ToT and the Rockets seem to be in a sweet spot because there are only 4 cars.

So while I find it frustrating that the market for "modern" stuff is so small, I am able to limit my spending because of it and I have zero interest in old Alcos or KMs if they are made.

Rule292 posted:

GenesisFan99 posted:

 

All these other ideas are cool though. Krauss-Maffei seems like an interesting idea.

The KM surely takes the cake here and it might even have some global appeal if the German version could be made alongside the US version.

 

I don't think there was a German equivalent to the KM ML 4000's. 

German domestic diesel hydraulics were compact things on B-B trucks similar to this:

Rusty

Bear in mind until Scott actually posts a model for reservation this is all speculation on our part as to sufficient reservations being made for the model he selects, based on the posts and Scotts comments nothing noteworthy has come to mind yet, so whatever model is selected he should have several backup models available to post in case the first selection does not work out,just saying!

SPSF posted:

Only 23 built......this would be perfect

GP40X?  But some roads got them with special trucks.  And the four SP units got "elephant ears" for the radiators.

EBT Jim posted:

1950 or 1990 ..... eastern roads or western roads .... 2-axle trucks or 3-axle trucks ..... zebra stripes or tiger stripes or toothpaste stripes, or even basic blue ..... everybody  loves the ornery looking and sounding RS-3/5's. They'd sell like hotcakes. 

Come on, Jonathan!! Before I have to commit my funds elsewhere.

These are a good indicator of one of the problems with O scale.

Folks are content with the really bad renditions from Atlas (and RTR Weaver) so we will seemingly never get ones that are 21st century in accuracy.  

Can't blame manufacturers for not making it if we aren't buying it. 

I curse my desire for all things Seaboard Air Line.  Everything they seemed to have was the oddball.

 I would love to see an ALCO RSC3:

These became Seaboard Coast Line Engines:

I think the Soo Line was the only other US RR to own them, but a few foreign RRs owned them too.

The 3-axle trucks are cool, the body looks just like the RS2 and RS3, but nobody to my knowledge has ever done a RSC 2 or 3.

That's why I would love to see a Milwaukee SDL39. Only been done in HO by Overland. PLEASE!

Dick

RDUNNlll,

First, I have a confession to make to the forum. Yes, I am an Amtrak Modeler. I know, I know...I am in therapy...perhaps one day.........  All kidding aside, I find I'm in agreement with you, not only about the SD40-2 as built, but Amtrak as well.

I would wager that there aren't a lot of Amtrak modelers in O Scale, despite the absence of product on the secondary markets. While I still think that the best service was in the early days of the company, truth is, all the inherited equipment from the member railroads was just a stop gap until the new cars and locomotives came on line. I could be dead wrong about this, but I don't think there are a lot of people modeling early Amtrak in numbers that make it economically viable for the importers. Ah, yes, people will point to the Atlas CZ cars, but remember, the CZ cars were just some of the many different car prototypes picked up by Amtrak, and added to O Scale by Atlas to bolster sales toward the end of their first run of CZ.

What about current Amtrak prototypes? Well, maybe, but cost (I really hate to admit this) is a huge factor. Add up the cost of 7-9 Overland SuperLiner l and ll Cars (the only correct models of the prototypes), along with 3-4 of the OMI MHCs, and 1-2 Heritage baggage cars where ever you can find the prototype (you will have to paint it), then add in 2-3 Overland P-42s or 3-4 F40PHs (pick your phase) to drag it, and you are looking at some pretty hefty denari, my friends. The cost alone keeps most people from owning them or expanding what they have. The additional Gunderson 60ft Merchandise Express Cars, used a decade ago, have never been produced by anyone.

So, could Sunset produce current prototype Amtrak of reasonable quality and accuracy that would turn the heads of the O Scale/O Gauge market and still turn a dime? I don't know, maybe, but I would think firm reservations would have to be legion for Scott to risk it. That's just my humble opinion and no more. Remember, I'm in therapy..........

On thing I will say with certainty: I think the AMD103s and P40/42s are ugly as sin! I would like nothing more than to replace them with FP45s and FP40Fs. Now those were passenger engines with charaacter! Although, if Amtrak West does go to a private vendor(s) as is occasionally hinted about, I expect that the routes will disappear faster than fresh horse meat dumped into a pond of ravenous piranhas, in which case, like the SD40-2s, Amtrak will have appeared and disappeared in my life time and I will move on to other modeling interests, like maybe a private company train.  Just sayin'.........

This has been a great thread.  I can tell you that I've been chatting briefly with Scott and he has read this thread thoroughly.  He's busy at the factory now, but he's reading and listening to your input. 

There are several interesting ideas in here.  As always, it just takes your orders to make any of this happen. 

Golden Gate Depot (GGD) already has my reservation for Amtrak passenger cars. Seems to me that a model of the Amtrak-Siemens ACS-64 Cities Sprinter would generate a sufficient number of orders not only from previous Sunset/3rd Rail customers, but also from the wider O-gauge community. I would order a couple - and some extra passenger cars too. Why has no O-gauge/scale manufacturer yet offered an ACS-64 electric? 

MELGAR

As best I can tell, this forum is the most active O Scale forum.  So why not simply list these options and tabulate?  That would surely be a better indication of actual desire than simply repeating each others' posts?

MELGAR posted:

Golden Gate Depot (GGD) already has my reservation for Amtrak passenger cars. Seems to me that a model of the Amtrak-Siemens ACS-64 Cities Sprinter would generate a sufficient number of orders not only from previous Sunset/3rd Rail customers, but also from the wider O-gauge community. I would order a couple - and some extra passenger cars too. Why has no O-gauge/scale manufacturer yet offered an ACS-64 electric? 

MELGAR

They would probably have to work with Siemens to get the tooling and it would have to be licensed by Amtrak. 

GenesisFan99 posted:

They would probably have to work with Siemens to get the tooling and it would have to be licensed by Amtrak. 

Licensing by Amtrak will possibly be required as anything with the current Amtrak logo is of interest to Amtrak.  Bachmann is doing the ACS-64 in HO and H, but it doesn't appear that they will do it in O.  As for tooling, we just need good quality photographs some key dimensions.  The factory creates a 3D model in CAD that is reviewed for accuracy.  If FP45s and SDP40Fs aren't hitting the 500-750 unit threshold, I have a hard time seeing this project do that.  It could possibly fly as a brass project.

Superliners are a good idea but prices are getting close to $300 a car for Aluminum.  It does allow for another run of El Capitan cars as perhaps individual cars for the Phase II and Phase III and Coast Starlight modeler. 

Besides the P42's we are getting the new Siemens Charger units on the Lincoln Service trains through town. 

GG1 4877 posted:

GenesisFan99 posted:

They would probably have to work with Siemens to get the tooling and it would have to be licensed by Amtrak. 

Licensing by Amtrak will possibly be required as anything with the current Amtrak logo is of interest to Amtrak.  Bachmann is doing the ACS-64 in HO and H, but it doesn't appear that they will do it in O.  As for tooling, we just need good quality photographs some key dimensions.  The factory creates a 3D model in CAD that is reviewed for accuracy.  If FP45s and SDP40Fs aren't hitting the 500-750 unit threshold, I have a hard time seeing this project do that.  It could possibly fly as a brass project.

Superliners are a good idea but prices are getting close to $300 a car for Aluminum.  It does allow for another run of El Capitan cars as perhaps individual cars for the Phase II and Phase III and Coast Starlight modeler. 

I would love to see another El Capitan run. I missed my chance to get a Hi-Level lounge and I don't exactly have the money to get the 8 car set, just a little bit outside my price range haha.

300 is to be expected for your level of quality. Better to pay that than try to find K-Line cars, not to mention the better detail that your Superliners would have. 

Mike DeBerg posted:

Besides the P42's we are getting the new Siemens Charger units on the Lincoln Service trains through town. 

Well if we're talking about ugly units might as well try boxcabs or those weird Rock Island B units with cabs as those will sell.

GG1 4877 posted:

GenesisFan99 posted:

They would probably have to work with Siemens to get the tooling and it would have to be licensed by Amtrak. 

Licensing by Amtrak will possibly be required as anything with the current Amtrak logo is of interest to Amtrak.  Bachmann is doing the ACS-64 in HO and H, but it doesn't appear that they will do it in O.  As for tooling, we just need good quality photographs some key dimensions.  The factory creates a 3D model in CAD that is reviewed for accuracy.  If FP45s and SDP40Fs aren't hitting the 500-750 unit threshold, I have a hard time seeing this project do that.  It could possibly fly as a brass project.

Superliners are a good idea but prices are getting close to $300 a car for Aluminum.  It does allow for another run of El Capitan cars as perhaps individual cars for the Phase II and Phase III and Coast Starlight modeler. 

Licensing agreements evidently have been negotiated by Bachmann for the ACS-64 in HO and N, so I don't see why Amtrak and Siemens would not do the same for an O scale manufacturer. A flexible licensing arrangement could make the fee proportional to the number of models sold. If they are willing to let Sunset/3rd Rail use their intellectual property such as logos, paint schemes, etcetera, they probably would agree to have a locomotive photographed as part of the deal. I would be interested to know whether drawings or photographs were provided to Bachmann... To me, the ACS-64 is a much more interesting possibility than another classic diesel or even a steam engine. We already have tons of those - including a nice P-42 model by MTH... And I think there would be a substantial market among O scale/gauge hobbyists. There are a lot of O scale/gauge modelers and fans along the NEC. Why not try it and see?

MELGAR

Mike DeBerg posted:

Besides the P42's we are getting the new Siemens Charger units on the Lincoln Service trains through town. 

Seems we keep setting a new standard of ugly with each and every new passenger locomotive produced.

Another point regarding a model of the ACS-64:

Reservation availability would have to be advertised in the model railroad print media to expand the customer base - not just on line at the Sunset/3rd Rail website - which I look at every day.

MELGAR 

Mike DeBerg,

Well, it sure is a flashy thing isn't it? One, maybe two things I don't get about Amtrak:  1st, why do they keep insisting upon their engineers having such a limited field of forward vision??? The AMD103s and P40/42s are similar. It would drive me nuts not to have a wide degree of unobstructed vision on the front of the locomotive. 2nd, why is it that the designed "lines" on almost none of Amtrak's equipment match. Budd, PS, and EMD managed it okay in the 1950s. It seems every new piece of Amtrak equipment I see was built with some other use in mind and "matches" nothing else in shape and color. The new baggage cars look very odd on the CZ as it passes through Arvada Crossing, but then the P42s look just as odd. So here you have locomotives, baggage cars, and passenger cars, none of which look like they were built to run together, much less compliment each other in appearance and function. Very odd. 

The ACS-64 is a modern, high-technology locomotive that operates at speeds above 100 MPH every day, carrying thousands of passengers between the largest cities in the USA. As an engineer and passenger, that makes it interesting to me. I also happen to like how it looks, and I'm certainly not alone in that opinion.

MELGAR

RDUNNlll,

One car I left out of my posting on Amtrak was the 85ft Postal Cars with the Center Shutter Door. I wonder if there would be enough interest in this car, along with the 60ft Gunderson Express Cars, and the MHCs, plus the full length and shorter Heritage Baggage Cars. These are the cars left behind by Overland who will not produce them, and they certainly won't be done by Brands A, M, or L. Now it is true that MTH did and still does produce a MHC, but along with their P42, they are a poor stand-in for the scale models made by OMI. A better quality scale model is called for, but, again, that's just my opinion and, remember, I am in therapy! In truth, my interests would be attracted more by the Gunderson Car and the Full Length Mail Cars. There were two phases for the Gunderson cars. Phase One cars had a peaked roof in Phases lVa, lVb, and V paint, while Phase Two cars had a flat roof and were seen in Phase 5 paint, and just plain platinum (call it Phase Vl?). I believe the Gunderson cars have gone on to private owners, but I'm not sure about that. They certainly were almost brand spanking new when retired/abandoned by Amtrak. I would hate to think that they were scrapped.....and now that I think about it, there were some PFE R70-25s rebuilt/refurbished as express reefers. Now just think about the Mid-West/Western passenger trains we could build if we had such options. In my fantasy world of model railroading, Amtrak does this sort of hauling on it's intercity routes, although in reality, at the time, UP and BNSF vigorously objected to such activity and, then, Amtrak President Gunn agreed. Result: Lots of cool cars off to the Rip Track. 

MELGAR posted:

GG1 4877 posted:

GenesisFan99 posted:

They would probably have to work with Siemens to get the tooling and it would have to be licensed by Amtrak. 

Licensing by Amtrak will possibly be required as anything with the current Amtrak logo is of interest to Amtrak.  Bachmann is doing the ACS-64 in HO and H, but it doesn't appear that they will do it in O.  As for tooling, we just need good quality photographs some key dimensions.  The factory creates a 3D model in CAD that is reviewed for accuracy.  If FP45s and SDP40Fs aren't hitting the 500-750 unit threshold, I have a hard time seeing this project do that.  It could possibly fly as a brass project.

Superliners are a good idea but prices are getting close to $300 a car for Aluminum.  It does allow for another run of El Capitan cars as perhaps individual cars for the Phase II and Phase III and Coast Starlight modeler. 

Licensing agreements evidently have been negotiated by Bachmann for the ACS-64 in HO and N, so I don't see why Amtrak and Siemens would not do the same for an O scale manufacturer. A flexible licensing arrangement could make the fee proportional to the number of models sold. If they are willing to let Sunset/3rd Rail use their intellectual property such as logos, paint schemes, etcetera, they probably would agree to have a locomotive photographed as part of the deal. I would be interested to know whether drawings or photographs were provided to Bachmann... To me, the ACS-64 is a much more interesting possibility than another classic diesel or even a steam engine. We already have tons of those - including a nice P-42 model by MTH... And I think there would be a substantial market among O scale/gauge hobbyists. There are a lot of O scale/gauge modelers and fans along the NEC. Why not try it and see?

MELGAR

I didn't mean that licensing would be hard, it would just be costly. I do agree there would be a market for an ACS64 as much as I like my toasters.