Is it likely that anyone will be making replacement parts in future for my lionel allegheny that is suffering from zinc rot?

My oldest "new" die cast locomotives are 8-9 years old and no zinc pest. 

I did some reading and it seems the issue occurs in the alloy mixing process, so basically it's a time bomb.  As such, not sure there's anything to be done to mitigate it, like storing in a cool dry location, etc.  

In terms of the various "trains, like all newer consumer goods, are all junk" comments, this is a rationalization.  My Sony flat screens are all 10 plus years old and no issues. Same with my clock radios, some of which are 30 plus years old. Same with my stereo, toaster, fridge, microwave, bicycle, etc.  But those comparisons are all off topic.  No one in their right mind would spend $1,000 - $2,000 on a high-end toy locomotive assuming it will disintegrate in 5 years.   

Every once in a while I dream that sometime in the future a third party will see a business opportunity to provide generic boards at a reasonable price which will restore basic function to the hanger queens.  Or maybe someday, we will be looking through that junker box under the table and it will be full of Big Boys available for scrap parts.

VistaDomeScott posted:

Tinplate Art posted:

Seriously, ALL trains/gauges can be frustrating and disappointing at times; unfortunately, it goes with the territory!

Wow, you aren't kidding!!!!!!shelf display only, beautiful but useless TurboTrain.  

How is it useless? It's pretty!

shorling posted:

Every once in a while I dream that sometime in the future a third party will see a business opportunity to provide generic boards at a reasonable price which will restore basic function to the hanger queens.  Or maybe someday, we will be looking through that junker box under the table and it will be full of Big Boys available for scrap parts.

I think you do see a few of those on ebay now, or at least I do.  Some of em pretty cheap.

PUFFRBELLY posted:

Fred Brenek posted:

Actually, the one that's really killing me is all of those scale Lionel GG1's with zinc rotting side frames.

I feel your pain because I've got one of those myself.   And still no replacement parts from Lionel!

Chief Boob (Retired)

There was recently one of those on ebay for about $105.. was very tempting too.

Dennis Holler posted:

shorling posted:

Every once in a while I dream that sometime in the future a third party will see a business opportunity to provide generic boards at a reasonable price which will restore basic function to the hanger queens.  Or maybe someday, we will be looking through that junker box under the table and it will be full of Big Boys available for scrap parts.

I think you do see a few of those on ebay now, or at least I do.  Some of em pretty cheap.

.59 cent bridge rectifier can even get a Big Boy goin forward again if the electronics go out! 

Now that Radio Shack is kaput, where is a good source for those?

Mark in Oregon

I don't worry about stuff I can't control, in the mean time I enjoy what I have. There are far too many things to worry about and my trains are not one of them. 

Dave

Strummer posted:

Now that Radio Shack is kaput, where is a good source for those?

Mark in Oregon

ebay…...you can get a bag full of them for cheap!....they have a lot more uses than just reviving dead locos too!

harmonyards posted:

Dennis Holler posted:

shorling posted:

Every once in a while I dream that sometime in the future a third party will see a business opportunity to provide generic boards at a reasonable price which will restore basic function to the hanger queens.  Or maybe someday, we will be looking through that junker box under the table and it will be full of Big Boys available for scrap parts.

I think you do see a few of those on ebay now, or at least I do.  Some of em pretty cheap.

.59 cent bridge rectifier can even get a Big Boy goin forward again if the electronics go out! 

Yes sir, did exactly that with  a Railking K4 and two Williams Brass K4's.  I was a real dirtbag and wired in an American Flyer reverse unit too lol.

Dennis Holler posted:

harmonyards posted:

Dennis Holler posted:

shorling posted:

Every once in a while I dream that sometime in the future a third party will see a business opportunity to provide generic boards at a reasonable price which will restore basic function to the hanger queens.  Or maybe someday, we will be looking through that junker box under the table and it will be full of Big Boys available for scrap parts.

I think you do see a few of those on ebay now, or at least I do.  Some of em pretty cheap.

.59 cent bridge rectifier can even get a Big Boy goin forward again if the electronics go out! 

Yes sir, did exactly that with  a Railking K4 and two Williams Brass K4's.  I was a real dirtbag and wired in an American Flyer reverse unit too lol.

that's what Im talkin about!!! HA HA HA!!...whatever it takes with whatever we got lying around!....

I'd be just as concerned that current trends is that a $1,200 engine is going for $300 in 10 years on eBay.

harmonyards posted:

Dennis Holler posted:

harmonyards posted:

Dennis Holler posted:

shorling posted:

Every once in a while I dream that sometime in the future a third party will see a business opportunity to provide generic boards at a reasonable price which will restore basic function to the hanger queens.  Or maybe someday, we will be looking through that junker box under the table and it will be full of Big Boys available for scrap parts.

I think you do see a few of those on ebay now, or at least I do.  Some of em pretty cheap.

.59 cent bridge rectifier can even get a Big Boy goin forward again if the electronics go out! 

Yes sir, did exactly that with  a Railking K4 and two Williams Brass K4's.  I was a real dirtbag and wired in an American Flyer reverse unit too lol.

that's what Im talkin about!!! HA HA HA!!...whatever it takes with whatever we got lying around!....

I am 75 years old.  Am I worried about zinc rot twenty five years from now?  I hope I'll be running my trains in five years and leave the worrying to whomever owns them in twenty five years.  The worst zinc rot case I ever had was a Kodak Carousel slide projector I inherited from my late father.  I had to discard the whole thing.  Haven't viewed slides since then.   ODD-D

Dennis Holler posted:

harmonyards posted:

Dennis Holler posted:

harmonyards posted:

Dennis Holler posted:

shorling posted:

Every once in a while I dream that sometime in the future a third party will see a business opportunity to provide generic boards at a reasonable price which will restore basic function to the hanger queens.  Or maybe someday, we will be looking through that junker box under the table and it will be full of Big Boys available for scrap parts.

I think you do see a few of those on ebay now, or at least I do.  Some of em pretty cheap.

.59 cent bridge rectifier can even get a Big Boy goin forward again if the electronics go out! 

Yes sir, did exactly that with  a Railking K4 and two Williams Brass K4's.  I was a real dirtbag and wired in an American Flyer reverse unit too lol.

that's what Im talkin about!!! HA HA HA!!...whatever it takes with whatever we got lying around!....

no lie....if you had a lionel part somewhere on that loco …..you'd be my hero!! that's  awesome!....wire up a lionel smoke unit!...It takes a Ford part to make a Chevrolet run right!

Dennis Rempel posted:

I'd be just as concerned that current trends is that a $1,200 engine is going for $300 in 10 years on eBay.

Yep and that's how I felt when my nib right of way industries $1800.00 PRR T1 dropped dramatically in value when the Lionel T1 came out in 2000.

Now I see that a lot when viewing these Auction sites like Stout and TrainZ and I bid accordingly and not above my head or bank account!

Unfortunately, zinc pest is a lot more common than most people think. The problem is related to specific batches of zinc alloy that get contaminated with lead. Most US and European white metal casters figured this out back in the 1930s. By 1950, much of the problem had disappeared. It returned when manufacturing went overseas. At this point, I think the small mom and pop Chinese foundries are the most likely source of the problem, as they scrounge whatever they can find and throw it in the pot. There is no QC on the melt, so who knows what is in it. Too much lead, and the time bomb starts ticking. It's not a matter of if, but when. And the issue is not specific to a particular brand. MTH, Lionel, Weaver, Atlas, K-Line, they all have it to some degree or another. Until the brands get together and tell the foundries they need to produce quality melt, and show proof that they are in fact producing quality melt, the problem will continue. Unfortunately, the "proof" part costs money and requires expertise which may be unavailable to the foundries.

Chris

LVHR

It doesn't really matter as there will be little interest in trains from the youngsters.

Same thing on muscle cars of the 60s and 70s. Even the Shelbys are leveling out.

Dennis Holler posted:

That shell is a an MTH railking tender I saw on ebay.  So considering it is the result of poor quality control in effect, and most of your train suppliers get stuff from China, and do not have control over the factory, AND the failure does NOT usually manifest itself immediately, it should be easy to see how this can happen repeatedly and really, there is not much Lionel or MTH or XXX can do about it after the fact.  We all know most of these mfr's do not really stock spare parts any more.  They make  xx number of extra items and those are robbed for spares as needed. When Lionel lived in Michigan, they did have spare parts, shells etc. They also did their own casting...

Yep, the problem being they use the manufacturing batch to make the spares so they have the same issues. 

I think Chris summed it up perfectly.

FWIW: I have had over the years, like most of us, many different types of models by different manufacturers. Other than the previously mentioned English locos, I once picked up an AHM/Rivarossi 2-10-2 at a show for next to nothing. It wanted to run, but couldn't. Upon opening it up, the large metal weight piece inside the boiler literally spilled out from zinc rot. Fortunately I was able to find a replacement part on eBay and that was that. So it does happen on occasion to "older" models, but not often. The fact that we're seeing it on these newer models is cause for concern, I think.

Mark in Oregon 

Proves my point: Since most man made objects, especially those containing zinc alloy castings, apparently have relatively short lives before some measure of disintegration occurs, ENJOY them in the moment, and not for a largely indeterminate future! Ultimately, our very own corporeal entities are gradually progressing toward decay!

Ron H posted:

It doesn't really matter as there will be little interest in trains from the youngsters.

Same thing on muscle cars of the 60s and 70s. Even the Shelbys are leveling out.

Ron, 

I only attend two train shows per year, including the huge Amherst show.  I can tell you that, while these shows are attended by lot of the same close-minded curmudgeons that you hear from on this forum, there is a growing number of very young people and they are interested in toy trains.  I also see families with young children (with glowing faces) exiting these shows hauling new r-t-r train sets. 

In terms of muscle cars, I don't think this is a good comparison - my opinion.  Cars have a real life function and very many appreciate in value.  And, a car like the AC Cobra has increased in value exponentially - unlike any model train being discussed.  If the price has "stabilized" it's because the real thing is out of reach for most folks. But you do see an ever increasing number of kit cars out there. Point being, the interest in this car clearly remains and is increasing - but this might not be obvious from the sale prices for the real version.  

The title of this thread should be changed to reflect all manufacturers.  As others have pointed out this isn't just a Lionel issue.

To the OP: I really feel bad for you. You got a real sh&t sandwich with that locomotive. Especially that it is your first O Gauge steam locomotive. That totally stinks. I would be pretty upset if it happened to one of mine because it takes me a lot of saving to buy a $1200 locomotive. 

Do we really know how prevalent this problem is? Wouldn’t we need to know how many locomotives were produced over the last 20 years and approximately how many have the zinc rot problem? (Assuming there are some that are still NIB that have the zinc rot problem but it is unknown to the owner). I know this won’t help the OP locomotive but if we had this information and knew that the percentage of locomotives effected were a small number it would give enthusiasts such as the OP more confidence to stay with O Gauge. 

As someone mentioned on Page 1 this problem sure does make a good case for buying Sunset/3rd Rail locomotives. I have seen many at good prices on the secondary market. 

It's not only the zinc issue, it's the lack of parts for these expensive engines. Most manufacturers are lucky to have parts 2 years after it's made. I get so frustrated when someone brings an engine in to get fixed and call up to get parts and the part isn't available.  What the heck am I supposed to tell the customer???? I try and match something up but doesn't always work. I've had both big companies tell me they are in the business to sell trains not repair them. No thanks, this exactly why I took down my big hi rail layout and going back to old stuff.

My question is, is this just limited to Lionel? or does this also happen with MTH? I do remember this happening with some of K-Line old passenger cars I believe. 

rtraincollector posted:

My question is, is this just limited to Lionel? or does this also happen with MTH? I do remember this happening with some of K-Line old passenger cars I believe. 

No it is not limited to Lionel.  MTH has definitely had issues as well.  Not sure about 3rd rail but one can assume it could happen to any of the importers.  That's why the thread title is misleading.

Ron H posted:

It doesn't really matter as there will be little interest in trains from the youngsters.

Same thing on muscle cars of the 60s and 70s. Even the Shelbys are leveling out.

If you faithfully watch many of the car auction shows on cable tv and see the prices those cars fetch, I'm at a loss as to the basis of your above comment.

MartyE posted:

The title of this thread should be changed to reflect all manufacturers.  As others have pointed out this isn't just a Lionel issue.

Of course it isn't, MartyE, since  many of the train manufacturers share the same manufacturing facilities and equipment therein.

Dennis Rempel posted:

I'd be just as concerned that current trends is that a $1,200 engine is going for $300 in 10 years on eBay.

Most 10 year old cars take a pretty good hit also.

   Bill T.

When I sell a train I'm not worried if it's still selling for what I paid. Chances are pretty good I got my money's worth.  I sell to thin the herd and price the item to sell.  

ogaugeguy posted:

Ron H posted:

It doesn't really matter as there will be little interest in trains from the youngsters.

Same thing on muscle cars of the 60s and 70s. Even the Shelbys are leveling out.

If you faithfully watch many of the car auction shows on cable tv and see the prices those cars fetch, I'm at a loss as to the basis of your above comment.

I'm 32 years old I love old cars cause my family is into older cars ,tractors etc. Most guys or girls my age don't care the least bit about older cars or trains. They are into Subaru and Toyota cars, which is what they like. The 50,60 and even 70 and 80's cars they hate. The older generation are still buying antique cars but my generation isn't, that's where problem is.

Dmaxdeere87 posted:

ogaugeguy posted:

Ron H posted:

It doesn't really matter as there will be little interest in trains from the youngsters.

Same thing on muscle cars of the 60s and 70s. Even the Shelbys are leveling out.

If you faithfully watch many of the car auction shows on cable tv and see the prices those cars fetch, I'm at a loss as to the basis of your above comment.

I'm 32 years old I love old cars cause my family is into older cars ,tractors etc. Most guys or girls my age don't care the least bit about older cars or trains. They are into Subaru and Toyota cars, which is what they like. The 50,60 and even 70 and 80's cars they hate. The older generation are still buying antique cars but my generation isn't, that's where problem is.

I agree. Do you think at some point the prices of HEMI ‘Cudas will come down far enough that I can afford one? I guess I have to try to out live the older generation. 

For me is buy it used or old new stock at the fraction of the price. This way when it fall apart you do not loose that much, plus you can always kit bash something together or sell it for parts

My opinion is, in general, it's a society shift or transition. More people desire new and won't be bothered by used or fixing/upgrading something old etc.  It's not all or nothing I know, but it does seem to be growing as a norm with people in general.  It seems that a good portion of those people couldn't care less about anything that is old.  Does not matter if it was a 30 year old Maytag washer or a 68 Yenko Camaro.  To them, old is old and therefore not worth the time or just worthless and undesirable in general.  The Camaro is no more interesting to them than a rusty tin spoon would be.

Consider this though.  Even though the % of people interested in such old things is maybe lower, there may still be just as many people in number due to normal population growth.  Even if % of people with interest dwindles, the cream of those items will still be the cream.

on base, maybe off, maybe half and half .... who knows

PJB posted:

Wow, everyone is responding as though zinc rot is a certainty?!  Is that true?  

Not that I've seen.  Mind you, I don't own any "modern" Lionel locomotives -- the newest one I have was made about 1991.  None of them (fingers crossed) have shown any signs of zinc rot.

The only time I've encountered zinc rot was when I restored my father's 1929 Lionel 252 locomotive.  The wheels had crumbled away and had to be replaced with Bowser reproductions.

As an aside, there's really NO excuse for zinc rot still being a problem.  All manufacturers have known about the problem for many years, and have had more than ample time to correct it.  The fact that they evidently haven't tells me that they don't particularly care.

An interesting facet of this issue is that I have in my collection a Marx 999, 333 and 666.  All have die-cast metal boilers, none of which show any zinc rot at all.  In fact, the metal they used doesn't even appear to my eye to be zinc.  Whatever it is, it has survived intact for many years.  Why, then, do today's makers continue to use zinc, when it is known to be a source of problems for at least a minority percentage of their products?

The usual "answer," of course, is that it would be more expensive to use other metals.  And yet, I see no signs that modern locomotive manufacturers have any qualms about making their models more expensive.

Even though zinc rot is by no means inevitable, the posts on this (and other) threads tell me that it occurs often enough to be taken far more seriously by Lionel and other hobby manufacturers.

You don't have t worry about Zinc rot. They won't have parts to make repairs anyway.

Hudson J1e posted:

I agree. Do you think at some point the prices of HEMI ‘Cudas will come down far enough that I can afford one? I guess I have to try to out live the older generation. 

Ha! Like Pre War repaints, that is a market loaded with buyer beware!!! Ever watch some of those TV shows where they have a VIN number attached to a rusted hulk and replace almost all the other sheet metal? Is it now a restored car or an aftermarket/custom car? Hemi prices will fall, maybe sooner since the signing of the 15% Ethanol bill yesterday.

Ironically, this is just one of the issues over which I think the major manufacturers like MTH and Lionel might be taking a very short term view and thereby shooting themselves in the foot.

It's true they appear to have no qualms in raising prices - and I'm ok paying them.  But in parallel, I keep reading about (and experiencing) QC issues and this has caused an overhaul in our buying.  As a couple of "for instances," I stopped buying MTH locomotives completely in 2015 because of the volume of DCS issues and jerky diesel operation - even though I love the craftsmanship, level of product detail, and the suite of DCS features.  Similarly, I used to buy 2 copies of every Vision locomotive and every other Lionel locomotive I even remotely liked, as I have twin sons and we love all the amazing operating features.  But due to QC issues and concerns over things like zinc pest, we now buy only one copy - and only of those very few locomotives that fill a specific need that cannot otherwise be filled by something in our existing stable.  

If the QC was what we should expect for items this expensive, I for one would be buying so much much more.  I would imagine this would benefit the majors in the given fiscal quarter and in the long term.  I think I'm not alone in thinking this way and the adjusted buying protocol. 

If the zinc pest is indeed caused by the lead being out of specification or they do not have the proper specification, the problem is the manufacturer.  Apple and Google sell $600- $1000 smart phones with much tighter specifications that are made in the same foreign countries without these kinds of problems with quality, so the train manufactures can make quality trains too.  They just do not care to make the effort to buy zinc that meets a tight lead specification and to test each batch as to whether it meets specification because we keep buying them.

I would not buy trains from these poor quality manufacturers.  We need to develop a list of the trains models and their manufacturers and start a Bad Quality Trains post on this forum.  It is ridicules to put up with poor quality $600 plus engines and other trains (or any train gear regardless of cost).  We need to call attention to the problem and force them make model trains that meet their quality specifications.

Charlie