What would cause a 6-82768 Legacy Allegheny to slow down after reaching speed step "23"?

I’ve got several posts about speed step 23. It happened to me with my B&O F3. At 23 it would bog down . Up to 22 and above 24 everything was perfect. This sounds crazy but my fix was lightly oiling the pick up rollers. Been running fine now for many years. Try it. You’ve got nothing to loose. 

Rod,  Thank you for the advice.  I did re-oil the engine lightly when I placed it on the layout, pick up rollers included.  They move smoothly.

The Allegheny runs smoothly below speed step "21".  It is after step "23" that the engine begins to drag and stutter.  I found an old traction tire behind a rear brake shoe on the engineer's side of the Allegheny.  Lionel service must have missed it.  After removing what I could see, the engine still drags and slows above speed step "23".  I tried again after dinner, but had no luck improving the performance.

It is coincidental I'm sure, that my N&W Y6b #2175 does the same thing as your B&O F3 at step "24", then moves smoothly through all other speed steps.  When I use the Heavy Train Program to start up the train, the N&W Y6b hesitates for a second at speed step "24".

Thank you again.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John, what is the heavy train program?

Jeremy,  I am using the term "Heavy Train Program" for the button marked "H" on the bottom of the Legacy 990 Remote.  There may be another term for it.  The "H" button automatically, slowly starts the train as if it is pulling a "Heavy" Load of cars, until it reaches the top speed step dialed by the user.  I usually turn my 990 Remote to approximately Speed Step "72".

After I turn the engine to Speed Step "72", the 990 Remote Program starts the engine moving slowly, gaining speed at a programmed pace, until it reaches the top set speed of "72".  It is a fantastic feature, and is turned off by pressing the "L" button to its left of "M", a "Medium", lighter train , automatic start up.

It is a great feature of the Legacy 990 Program. I can start one train and then focus on starting another while the 990 Remote does all the work on the first train. Thank you for your question.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

In my world, the new engines need to go in for service.  I could use that cold beer.

Jeremy.  The "Heavy Train Program" also slows the train as if it was pulling a long string of cars.  If the speed step is dialed back to slow the train or stop it, the brakes begin to squeal and the train is slowly programed to stop.  A heavy train can take an entire lap around my layout before it stops at speed step "0",

It is a good lesson for people to see how far a train has to travel in an emergency stop situation.  The weight of the train and its original momentum keeps the train moving a long distance before it can stop.  It is all controlled by the 990 Legacy Remote Program.

Thank you again for the question.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

The L,M,H are the momentum controls for low, medium, and high.  They control how fast the locomotive accelerates or decelerates in TMCC or Legacy mode.

You can manually adjust the momentum settings by holding down the M and turning the red knob for a finer setting between 1 and 8. I usually find 6 to be about right for me. 

Marty, that's something I didn't know, where is that documented?   I like that idea, I find Medium too fast, and High to slow.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Marty, that's something I didn't know, where is that documented?   I like that idea, I find Medium too fast, and High to slow.

Page 30 of the current manual. Been there since the beginning. It really does a nice job of fine tuning. I too found M (4) to fast and H (8)  too slow. 

This will be part of the Legacy meeting!

MartyE, Thank you for the information on the Momentum Controls.  I will raise my "M" setting from "4" to "6".  The current factory setting of "4" for "M" makes sense because it is half of "8", but the "4" setting is too rapid of a change.

Thank you again for pointing out the information on page 30.

John Rowlen

Super, I'll use this new found knowledge.

Does anyone have an idea what could be slowing the Allegheny at Speed Step "23" and higher?

The engine was just repaired by Lionel Service for pinched wires in the nose of the engine that shorted my ZW-L transformer. The technician also worked on alignment of the white trim on the Engineer's side of the Cab.  Now it looks good, but does not run correctly.

The engine runs fine between Speed Step "1-21".  At Speed Step "23" the engine begins to drag and slow down.  As I increase the speed, it moves slowly a little faster, but not as fast as it should.  I removed a piece of Traction tire from the rear Engineer side back drive wheel assembly.  All traction tires have gotten chewed up trying to run the engine since it returned from Lionel Service.  The front traction tires appear to wear from pushing the Allegheny, while the front show wear from dragging on the track.

The front drive assembly jumps the O-72 switches over Speed Step "60". 

Could the original short have damaged the motor control board? The linkages to the drives appear to be turning, but at what Speed, I can not tell.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.  I hate to send another engine in to Lionel. They are currently working on my Vision Line GG1 #4913 for the third time (motors stopped), my CSX F40PH #9999 for a second time (smoke fan stopped), and my GG1 4935 after a year of phone help from Dean for the first time (gears are tight and will not move forward at Speed Steps 1-15, have to jump the speed immediately to "35" or higher or it shorts my ZW-L transformer.

Thank you for your help.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Correction: Rear traction tires show wear from pushing the Allegheny. The front show signs of dragging along the rails.   John Rowlen

It sounds like you have a drivetrain problem.  Since there is only one motor, the gear ratios should be locked.  The only thing that can alter that is some issue in the drivetrain.  From the traction tire observation, I'd say the front truck has some sort of problem.

Could be a similar problem my Visionline Big Boy had.  Just like your Allegheny it would act like it was binding, then once more speed was added it began running fine.  The fix per Lionel was a cap across the motor leads.  It has to do with some needed filtering for the speed control.  And my VLBB only needed it after I replaced the receiver/control board in it.  It didn't have a problem from the factory, but after I had to replace the board because it died the locomotive ran funny until I added that cap.  I'd say call Lionel and ask to take to one of the engineers about it.

Very unlikely it would tear up the traction tires for that issue.  His symptoms clearly suggest a mechanical issue in the drive train, a cap isn't going to fix it.

John Rowlen posted:

Jeremy,  I am using the term "Heavy Train Program" for the button marked "H" on the bottom of the Legacy 990 Remote.  There may be another term for it.  The "H" button automatically, slowly starts the train as if it is pulling a "Heavy" Load of cars, until it reaches the top speed step dialed by the user.  I usually turn my 990 Remote to approximately Speed Step "72".

After I turn the engine to Speed Step "72", the 990 Remote Program starts the engine moving slowly, gaining speed at a programmed pace, until it reaches the top set speed of "72".  It is a fantastic feature, and is turned off by pressing the "L" button to its left of "M", a "Medium", lighter train , automatic start up.

It is a great feature of the Legacy 990 Program. I can start one train and then focus on starting another while the 990 Remote does all the work on the first train. Thank you for your question.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

In my world, the new engines need to go in for service.  I could use that cold beer.

Man,  I was excited I thought there was some top secret operation I didn't know about.  I am familiar with momentum controls. However, I did not know they could be manually adjusted.  I will try this tonight.  I've combed though the manual several times and overlooked this.  Thanks to @MartyE for pointing it out.

If he has the ability to remove the boiler and disconnect the motor he could roll the chassis and see if there is any binding. Or disconnect the front engine and see if it ran freely then.

Since the front and rear engine trucks are connected by a driveshaft to the can motor I don't see how it could be driving the rear engine and sliding the front one.

BobbyD posted:

Since the front and rear engine trucks are connected by a driveshaft to the can motor I don't see how it could be driving the rear engine and sliding the front one.

Hence the obvious conclusion that there is a drive train issue with the front truck!

gunrunnerjohn posted:

BobbyD posted:

Since the front and rear engine trucks are connected by a driveshaft to the can motor I don't see how it could be driving the rear engine and sliding the front one.

Hence the obvious conclusion that there is a drive train issue with the front truck!

But he says it moves  So it has flat spotted tires and one really strong can motor John! Or someone had it apart and the driveshaft install is hosed.

John Rowlen posted:

Correction: Rear traction tires show wear from pushing the Allegheny. The front show signs of dragging along the rails.   John Rowlen

Lionel just refused to bring the engine in for repair.  I am DONE buying Lionel.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John Rowlen posted:

Lionel just refused to bring the engine in for repair.  I am DONE buying Lionel.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Is it out of warranty?  Try Mike Reagan of TW Trainworx.  He should be able to help.

Mike's a good guy for this.  It may not be a huge issue, but it will have to come apart to see what is going on.

MartyE,  Thank you for the suggestion of Mike Reagan at TW Trainworx.

The Allegheny was under warranty when serviced, but is out-of-warranty now.  The first Lionel service attempt just could not do the job correctly.  I have a Vision Line GG1 #4913 back at Lionel Service for a third time, a CSX F40PH #9999 back for a second time, and a Vision Line GG1 #4935 for the first time, though I have been following Dean's emailed instructions on trying to get it to work better for the last year.

After spending to purchase 75 new Lionel engines, I am concerned that my investment is becoming a huge liability. 

Thank you for the recommendation.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John, don’t give up just yet. Contact one of the many guys here that do repairs. Send them a personal email for discussion.It does appear to be mechanical so there has to be a solution. I’ve had things such as a wire clip mounted directly above the flywheel sensor that came loose and would hit the flywheel making for erratic operation. Simple fix after diagnosed with boiler removed. Please keep us posted.

regards

John Rowlen posted:

The Allegheny was under warranty when serviced, but is out-of-warranty now.  The first Lionel service attempt just could not do the job correctly.

If this is a boomerang repair, they should fix it under warranty!

I have emailed Dean at Lionel Service asking for help.  I got nowhere with the new girl answering phones at Lionel.  It was not Katie.  Katie is helpful.

It is a boomerang repair.

Unfortunately my mother was rushed to Parma University Hospital after loosing four pints of blood through her GI track on September 5, 2017.  I have been sleeping in hospital rooms to help her know where she is.  I have been taking her for transfusions of blood platelets for her ITP Platelet Disease at Seidman Cancer Institute twice a week.  I have had to quit my job as a substitute teacher to care for her because no other family members are in Ohio. Finally her new medication is helping her make her own platelets for now, but the experience cost her some teeth and mental sharpness.  We have however enjoyed many Dairy Queen Hot Dogs and Hot Fudge Sundaes as we watch the ducks at Lower Fernhill Park in Cleveland's Metro Parks.

Life is good.  Trains, not so much.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

I will see how Lionel values customers who have spent thousands on their product. I still have faith in Dean.

I suspect there's a much higher likelihood that Dean will assist, especially considering the circumstances around the previous repair.

I don't like giving up on a difficulty.  I went back down to the Allegheny and checked that diver rods were properly secured.  As I tilted the engine to the side, a fiber washer fell out of the front drive train.

I am not sure if it is an extra part that fell into the gears (How?) or a end washer for the driver worm gear.  I included a picture.  The washer is not plastic, but a compacted fiber.

The engine still slows and drags at Speed Step "23".  It also will stop and make a rapid machine gun "tat, tat, tat" out of the sound systems.

Maybe if I shake the engine upside-down, more parts will fall out.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

I really do think the shell will have to come off to check out what's going on.  Continuing to run it with it binding can do more damage than you want to deal with.

GunrunnerJohn,  Thank you for the advice.  I will wait and see if Dean at Lionel responds about the C&O Allegheny #1604. 

They are currently working on my Vision Line GG1 #4913 that is back for the third time. Maybe someone at Lionel will know how to fix it. Now it does not run at all.

My CSX F40PH is back for a second time because roof hatch still won't open and now the smoke fan does not work. They did glue the broken air hoses back on crooked the first time on this brand new engine.

My Vision Line GG1 #4935 is also at Lionel for the first time.  Dean suggest I "run the pants off" my Vision Line GG1 #4935 over a year ago.  I have run it for a year, and it has not improved.  The engine will not start at low Speed Steps and pops the ZW-L Breaker.  I have to jump the speed to "35" to get it to run forward. It runs backward fine.  It could be a bad spot the motor settles into when it stops.  I noticed that the Vision Line GG1s are selling for only $899 on Ebay.  That's a lot less than the $1189.99 I paid an authorized Lionel dealer for each of the two GG1s when they came out.

I appreciate your wisdom and willingness to help.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

I fixed the hatches and number boards myself for my F40ph and it's Cabbage mate.  I didn't want them to make a second trip.

I did have to send them in for the rotting couplers and trucks, I guess an acid based lubricant is not a good idea!   One of the trucks also had the wrong wheel, no traction tire groove.  Of course, all the traction tires were missing, so I guess they thought it didn't matter.

Gunrunner John,  I beveled the bottom edge of my hatch to the point that only a little blue paint remained visible on the top edge. There is just enough blue so the engine looks good, no plastic showing.  With a 45-degree bevel there is no plastic block to bind in the hatch opening. The magnet holds it down, and the binding plastic has been removed.

For years Lionel has told me I am the only one having so many difficulties with their trains.  I have to remind them that I have purchased many articulated steamers and trains in the six figure range. It is time to thin out my engines and minimize my repair liability while they all work.  I have some Vision Line Big Boys in sealed cartons to check.  I had a lot of faith in Lionel when I started my layout three years ago.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Pictured below is my "final tool" for working on malfunctioning Lionel engines.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Before you hit them with that, send them to me, I'll give them a good home and get them running again!

I was lucky with the F42ph, mine is the Amtrak and the hatch and surround is black.  So, after I sanded the sides enough to be free, I just fixed them with a black Sharpie, you can't tell I was there.  I did put a slight bevel on them as well.

John Rowlen posted:

Gunrunner John,  I beveled the bottom edge of my hatch to the point that only a little blue paint remained visible on the top edge. There is just enough blue so the engine looks good, no plastic showing.  With a 45-degree bevel there is no plastic block to bind in the hatch opening. The magnet holds it down, and the binding plastic has been removed.

For years Lionel has told me I am the only one having so many difficulties with their trains.  I have to remind them that I have purchased many articulated steamers and trains in the six figure range. It is time to thin out my engines and minimize my repair liability while they all work.  I have some Vision Line Big Boys in sealed cartons to check.  I had a lot of faith in Lionel when I started my layout three years ago.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Pictured below is my "final tool" for working on malfunctioning Lionel engines.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John, you mentioned you have some unopened Big Boys; would you consider selling one?  My email address is in my profile.

John,

Sorry to hear about all of your difficulties with the Lionel engines.  If you have any Vision Line and/or Legacy engines you are interested in selling please let me know at michaelcoreyduke@gmail.com.

Thanks,

Michael