when do you replace traction tires?

I never try to put old tires back on.  After many attempts I came to realize that once they've peeled off, it's pretty rare they're not stretched enough to come right back off.  I'd rather spend the money for a new tire than the time putting an old one on again and again.

Five your old tires normally aren't deteriorated much as a rule, but it does depend on how they're stored.  If it's extreme climate, hot, dry, etc. they may go bad faster.

For your specific situation, just replace the tires once and see if it improves things.  If it does, then you needed them.  If it doesn't, it could be a problem with the wheels/frame and/or the track.

thanks John. Yes, like I said, once they stretch that's a sure-sign for me too.

The engine is stored in a spare bedroom so I don't think there's an issue there.

I noticed the last time that I looked that the tires seemed 'hard', almost plastic like.  I never examined them closely before but I was expecting a softer, more rubber like feel.

That's why I thought maybe over time, 5-years here, they "change" somehow and need replaced even though they still fit nice and tight on the wheels.

thanks - walt

Hard to say.  The MTH tires start out shiny and looking "plastic like".  Most Lionel tires are more rubber looking, but I actually prefer the MTH tires.  They're thinner and frequently solve issues with the too thick Lionel tires.

Thanks John.  There-in lies my dilemma in a way.  I have one Lionel steamer and compared the tires on it with the tires on my in-question tin-plate one.  That's when I noticed shiney and plastic-like on the T-P engine versus rubber-like.

- walt

I've started not replacing them.  So far, things are running just fine.  Maybe I'll change my mind after a while.

I found that having them on RailRax anodized aluminum shelves would break down the tires.  Now I move them off of the rails so that they rest on their flanges.

Alan

I usually replace them after I find one on the side of the tracks or if one gets bound up in the drive rods on a steamer! 

WALT, I've learned the hard way to keep a close eye on traction tires. I have had damage on both a steam engine (PS2 board fail from wheel lock up) and a diesel (truck gear damage),  from them coming off and getting tangled in the wheels. I like to use a wooden tooth pick and try to drag the tire on the wheel. If they lift easily or slip like their stretched (especially if the engine is used in a MU lash up) I replace them. Visually I will inspect for orange peel and dry rot.

I replace a traction tire only after it has broken and don't replace the tire on the opposite side of the axle until it breaks...

Traction tires seem to last well on my mostly MTH locomotives. One factor in favor of that is that my curves are O-54 and O-72. The larger the track diameter, the smaller the wheel slippage, which helps to prolong traction tire life. Another factor is that my trackage is Atlas O on which the flat-topped rail results in less contact pressure than tubular rail. I also run short trains that require less tractive force than long ones.

MELGAR

thank you all - the MOST important thing that I gleaned from reading them all is that a 5-year old tire is not necessarily in need of replacement just because it's 5 years old.

The tires are not stretched, not chipped, etc.  I'm just trying to figure out if age COULD HAVE BEEN a reason that this engine can't pull more than the 3 cars that came with it.  Rule out age.

As always, thanks - walt

Walt, they can deteriorate, some tires last better than others, and of course they could have been contaminated with some chemical or oil on the track and the aging accelerated.

I normally just wait till the tires fall off. Then I change them. Yesterday I noticed that one of the tires on my MTH Premier GS4 Northern just popped off and unrolled itself while the locomotive was sitting in the passenger terminal on my layout. I figured I would just change both, since they looked original (locomotives was built in 1999). Turns out the previous owner changed the tires at some point and super glued them on. Don't do that. Chipping super glue off a wheel with a tiny screwdriver gets really old, really fast.

walt rapp posted:

The tires are not stretched, not chipped, etc.  I'm just trying to figure out if age COULD HAVE BEEN a reason that this engine can't pull more than the 3 cars that came with it.  Rule out age.

As always, thanks - walt

The next thing to investigate is, how well do the cars roll? Is there excess drag causing the engine to slip?

The extra rollers and axle wipers on passenger cars can really increase drag exponentially.

I've had O scale passenger cars that I had to pry back the axle wipers a bit to relieve the tension. This made a big difference. Of course lubing axles rollers and such all helps if you haven't already.

Tin plate is a bit different but with my oguage stuff I try to lube/ tweak each passenger car so when I give it a shove it rolls freely for a reasonable distance.

Thanks for those comments Ricko.  In response I'll say that I faithfully oiled all of the wheels/axles as directed in the instructions.  I agree that these tin-plate cars don't roll anywhere near as well as my non-tin plate rolling stock does.  They don't drag but they aren't quite as free wheeling.

on the train that I am questioning, there are no lighted cars so not wipes.

just frustrating, that's where I"m at.  Don't want to accept the situation but might be forced into a reality check!

- walt

Have you tried adding weight? Stick a couple magnets on as an experiment If it works you can add some self sticking wheel weights out of sight.

walt rapp posted:

The only time that I have put on new tires was when the old one fell off, loosely speaking.  I have been taught, correctly, that once the tire gets stretched and comes loose, you might THINK you can put it back on but it's best to put a new one on.

Other than that, I'm wondering if there are other occassions to put a new one on.  Specifically, do they simply get old and lose their effectiveness????

That question hits home for me.  I have a tin-plate set that I bought new in 2013.  Keep in mind that I only have a Christmas layout so it has limited mileage on it.  In another thread I mentioned that I bought 2 extra cars but the engine's wheels usually just spin and the train doesn't move when I try to hook them up to the original 3.  It doesn't matter which 3 of the 5 cars that I use, that's all that the engine can handle without spinning its wheels.

I'm wondering if maybe the traction tires, being 5 years old last Christmas, need replaced.  How do I know?????  What signs are there that it's time to replace the tires???  Or don't they get old and need replacement for that reason?

As always, thanks - walt

Walt, does the rubber tire actually touch the rail head? If it is too thin in thickness you won't get any benefit. Try two, one on top of the other.

I find that Lionel's traction tires are wider than Mth's traction tires. Thus the MTH tires will fit Lionel engines, but Lionel tires will not fit MTH engine's. I also find that Lionel's tires deteriorate faster than the MTH tires.

I've gone two different routes,

1) replace tire after it falls off.

2) in some cases I've been able to replace the entire wheel with a drive wheel that has NO groove for traction tires.

The problem is not the traction tire; it's the uncoupling shoe on the bottom of your rolling stock.

Scott Smith

Here's a thread about this:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...t-if-the-wheels-slip

Scott Smith

About as often as changing furnace filters, or underwear, whichever comes first.

Never, since I do not have the track capacity to run trains more than 10 cars anyway if the tire falls off or fails the wheels stay naked.  I have seen no change in overall performance.

Walt,
Notice the 263E on the bottom level. I am pulling 8 cars.

Scott Smith

Walt, I have 3 Weaver locos from early 90's (all now PS2) that still have their original tires.  I will admit that the 0-6-0's tires seem to have worn down to below the steel, as they are starting to slip.  But they're narrow and hard to find replacement.

Otherwise, I only replace a tire when it fails.

BobbyD posted:

walt rapp posted:

The only time that I have put on new tires was when the old one fell off, loosely speaking.  I have been taught, correctly, that once the tire gets stretched and comes loose, you might THINK you can put it back on but it's best to put a new one on.

Other than that, I'm wondering if there are other occassions to put a new one on.  Specifically, do they simply get old and lose their effectiveness????

That question hits home for me.  I have a tin-plate set that I bought new in 2013.  Keep in mind that I only have a Christmas layout so it has limited mileage on it.  In another thread I mentioned that I bought 2 extra cars but the engine's wheels usually just spin and the train doesn't move when I try to hook them up to the original 3.  It doesn't matter which 3 of the 5 cars that I use, that's all that the engine can handle without spinning its wheels.

I'm wondering if maybe the traction tires, being 5 years old last Christmas, need replaced.  How do I know?????  What signs are there that it's time to replace the tires???  Or don't they get old and need replacement for that reason?

As always, thanks - walt

Walt, does the rubber tire actually touch the rail head? If it is too thin in thickness you won't get any benefit. Try two, one on top of the other.

that's a suggestion that I never heard before!!! Thanks.  Not sure how to check that but I'll try to find a way.  Any suggestions.  I will try and consider anything at this point.

thanks - walt

scott.smith posted:

Here's a thread about this:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...t-if-the-wheels-slip

Scott Smith

Scott,

I remember your thread well since I used your advice on my BABY BLUE COMET set, which has 4 passenger cars.  The set that I am referring to here is what I call the Christmas Train set.  It is a freight set.  I'm not sure right now (stuff is in storage at the moment) that these cars have shoes.

Since I followed your suggestion on the passenger cars I can't imagine why I would not have done the same to the freight cars - unless they don't have shoes.  I just right now looked at some pictures of the set that I took back then.  None are from the bottom but I did notice that the couplers look like the have the uncoupling pieces in place so that would mean they have shoes.

I can't wait to check and see 1) if they have shoes, and 2) did I tie them up!!!

thanks for the reminder

- walt

John H posted:

Have you tried adding weight? Stick a couple magnets on as an experiment If it works you can add some self sticking wheel weights out of sight.

It was suggested to me to try LIGHTLY pushing down on the engine to see if that helped.  So you're in that same thought.

Will try when I get it back out

thanks - walt

Farmer_Bill posted:

About as often as changing furnace filters, or underwear, whichever comes first.

 

Well, these tires are 5 years old now so they're getting close to the time frame that you go by!

scott.smith posted:

Walt,
Notice the 263E on the bottom level. I am pulling 8 cars.

Scott Smith

Scott, that's NOT the engine in question here.  This one is the one that I am talking about.  It's considerably smaller and lighter:

RJR posted:

Walt, I have 3 Weaver locos from early 90's (all now PS2) that still have their original tires.  I will admit that the 0-6-0's tires seem to have worn down to below the steel, as they are starting to slip.  But they're narrow and hard to find replacement.

Otherwise, I only replace a tire when it fails.

thanks for commenting RJR.  Helpful

walt

I'm running out of things to try - only one suggestion left - the one about pressing down on the engine to see if it's a matter of the engine being too light.

SCOTT: picture show that I DID remember to tie up the pickup shoes on the cars:

BOBBYD: I very carefully and closely examined how the engine contacts the rails and it's clear the BOTH traction tires and in clear contact with the rails.

Where am I now:

As always, thanks for chiming in to help out

- walt

I have a few small steam engines (8142, 8141 types) from MPC era (70s, 80s) that have traction tires.   I have never changed them or had a problem.  Were they made from a different material?  Do they normally wear out or come off like is mentioned with current era engines?

One question that I have, which no one has really touched on, is about finding the CORRECT tire.  Often there are literally dozens of varieties ...   I guess one could go by your loco's parts diagram, but often they are not available, so it ends up being an "eyeball-guesstimation" match-up process between you and the guy you are buying parts from.   Any suggestions here?

Correct tire isn't the topic of this thread.

I will only replace tires when they come off. I run trains everyday and have been fortunate to only replace one set of tires on a Lionel EL PA from many years ago. 

Whenever I see this symbol on my Z-4000.

What is the motor/gear train layout on the locomotive in question? Is it a motor with a worm shaft connected to one set of wheels where the side rods transmit power (a la a Postwar 736) or a spur gear drive train (a la a 2046 Hudson)? Does the locomotive have an open frame motor or a can motor? All of these things will have an impact on how much this locomotive can pull.

Lou1985 posted:

What is the motor/gear train layout on the locomotive in question? Is it a motor with a worm shaft connected to one set of wheels where the side rods transmit power (a la a Postwar 736) or a spur gear drive train (a la a 2046 Hudson)? Does the locomotive have an open frame motor or a can motor? All of these things will have an impact on how much this locomotive can pull.

 

LOU: I can't answer most of what you ask.  It's a standard MTH PS3 setup.  I uses a single can motor and that motor is directly connected to one of the axles.

thanks - walt

walt rapp posted:

Lou1985 posted:

What is the motor/gear train layout on the locomotive in question? Is it a motor with a worm shaft connected to one set of wheels where the side rods transmit power (a la a Postwar 736) or a spur gear drive train (a la a 2046 Hudson)? Does the locomotive have an open frame motor or a can motor? All of these things will have an impact on how much this locomotive can pull.

 

LOU: I can't answer most of what you ask.  It's a standard MTH PS3 setup.  I uses a single can motor and that motor is directly connected to one of the axles.

thanks - walt

Looks like a small can motor with flywheel mounted above a spur gear train. Should be enough to pull 5 cars. The locomotive may just be too light. I'd see if it's possible to add a little weight (without overloading the motor) and see if that helps. 

John H posted:

Correct tire isn't the topic of this thread.

Geez... SO sorry to interfere in a thread about TRACTION TIRES.

RadioRon posted:

One question that I have, which no one has really touched on, is about finding the CORRECT tire.  Often there are literally dozens of varieties ...   I guess one could go by your loco's parts diagram, but often they are not available, so it ends up being an "eyeball-guesstimation" match-up process between you and the guy you are buying parts from.   Any suggestions here?

https://mthtrains.com/news/10

If you are going to YORK, stop by MTH parts booth, in the Orange Hall, they have them there for a buck each.  Great traction tires.

Have there been any RECENT updates to the MTH traction tire usage list?

RJR posted:

Have there been any RECENT updates to the MTH traction tire usage list?

The current list on their website appears to be the same. MTH hasn't produced a brand new locomotive model in several years, so the list should be pretty accurate. 

laz1957 posted:

If you are going to YORK, stop by MTH parts booth, in the Orange Hall, they have them there for a buck each.  Great traction tires.

LAZ: yep, but I still have 2 that are unused that came with the set.

If applying weight, right now that will be done with me lightly pressing down on it, doesn't work, then my last option to help determine if it's the engine or the tires is to replace them.  If that doesn't work, then I will just have to live with a weak pulling engine.

- walt

Walt. Since you already have new tires with the engine why don’t you just put them on and try it? You can always get some more tires at York while your there. Honestly I wouldn’t exepect more than 5 or 6 cars behind that little engine especially tinplate cars.  

WALT, you should also check your axles for cross line. Set the engine down on a piece of glass and see if all drive wheel flanges touch the glass and the engine doesn't teeter. Also watch the engine when it's running to see if it wobbles.

Chris Lonero posted:

Walt. Since you already have new tires with the engine why don’t you just put them on and try it? You can always get some more tires at York while your there. Honestly I wouldn’t exepect more than 5 or 6 cars behind that little engine especially tinplate cars.  

You last sentence Chris is enlightening and I consider you well educated relative to tin-plate.  That's why I place importance on that last sentence.

Not to say that you are not "well educated" about all things 

My engine as is can only pull 3 cars.  I have 5 so I would love to have it able to pull between 5 and 6!

- walt

Dave Zucal posted:

WALT, you should also check your axles for cross line. Set the engine down on a piece of glass and see if all drive wheel flanges touch the glass and the engine doesn't teeter. Also watch the engine when it's running to see if it wobbles.

thanks for the suggestions Dave.  I already checked that the wheels are making good contact when I checked to see if the traction tires were actually contacting the rails.

The engine seems to sit solidly and I haven't noticed it wobbling.

I'm just getting used to tin-plate after 50 years of "non-tin-plate", the last 20 being all MTH Railking stuff.  When I first ran both this train and my Baby Blue Comet passenger set I was flipping out because all of the cars wobbled!!!  I called a buddy that's into tin-plate to come over.  He said "That's tin-plate for you.  It's normal".

- walt

I feel your pain Walt. I have a little ETS switcher that will only pull about the same amount of cars but there is no provision on the wheels for a traction tire. I added a little more weight to it by using stick on weights I got on EBay it helped a little but I came to the conclusion it’s only going to pull so much and that’s it. Something you might want to try if your engine is not happy with all five cars is just alternate the cars around so the train has a different look to it instead of all 5 together. 

This is a video of the little guy in action the cars a heavy beacause the trucks are solid die cast but the bodies are tinplate. 

wow Chris that's one small engine!  As you can see by the pictures that I've included mine is a bit bigger.

With all the electronics inside these things there's not good extra space for tack on weights.  I'll try pushing down on it lightly first to see if that helps.

I'd be disappointed if the traction tires themselves are bad.  I've only had this for 5 years and as you know, I only run it 2 months at Christmas.

- walt