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Question on the venerable 4x8 on why there are so many in the hobby (in all scales) against it.  There are already endless discussions on the internet that say it takes up too much space in the room, the plywood could be better used if cut into 2 foot wide strips for a switching layout, it’s too far to reach over, etc., etc., etc..

Maybe I’m missing something here, but how is that any different than a 6x10 (unless the majority of 6x10’s are in basements) which doesn’t get the same amount of flak as the 4x8?  Looks like the same space eating 2 feet on all 4 sides to me.  I’ve seen many photos of small to medium size layouts on the internet and magazines that have 4 or more feet of spacing against a wall with nary a mention of a cut-out for access to the rear.  I’m guessing that topside creepers are used in those cases, but how is that any different for a placing a 4x8 layout against the wall?

Just like I’ve seen 6x10’s with the center cut out, I’m sure that there’s someone out there that has a 4x8 with a 2x6 center cut out to operate it.

The significant difference that I can see between the 4x8 and the 6x10 is that the 6x10 requires extra carpentry skills instead of having everything already pre-cut for you (foam, lumber, etc.) at the store.  Is there a hobby elitist aspect to the hate? 

Last edited by Amfleet25124
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Hate is a hard word. I honestly don't hate anything about this hobby. That said, the trend as I see it is moving more and more towards scale sized locomotives and rolling stock. A 4x8 is just not conducive to operating the majority of my collection.

For post war traditional sized sets, a 4x8 layout is a perfect starting point. The arched fascia on my attic layout started out as design for a 7x11 layout.  

Just my $0.02

Last edited by Gilly@N&W

Don't have a problem with 4x8 , the mistake was not asking questions about what track would fit 4x8. An assumption was made that 048 fastrack would work on 4x8.It will not, no one’s fault but the writers, resulting in an addition of 15 inches to each piece (3) of 4x8 that was used, resulting in a purchase of 060 and 072 track, there is stack of 048 on the shelve.

Do not know why this was written but here it is. FOLKS-NEW FOLKS IN THE HOBBY, please save some money and ask questions.

There are several experts on this forum, writer not included.

Brent

 

Like Tom said, it isn't about hating the 4'x8', it's about wanting more.

I think it is pretty straight forward why the 4'x8' is the standard starter size for all scales. Grab a sheet of plywood at the lumber yard (old school) a few 1x4's and some 2x4's and you're off to the races.

Shortly after doing that, you discover the limitation of the 4' dimension, you want wider curves! So begins the expansion. For 3 rail you want to get out to 7'. Next you need more straight between your curves, etc, etc, etc, until you fill all available space.

Then you build a house with a huge basement...

Even for smaller radius track, I think the opening up a little (to even 5x9 if not 6x10) can offer more variety in the track arrangements you can do (switches, figure 8 based layouts  that go beyond a traditional "8" pattern, etc).

No hating here, whatever makes people happy!   I had a 4x8 HO layout growing up.

-Dave

I have no hate for the 4X8, but train mfgs do!!!  Only the starter sets are designed to be run on them due to the O31 curve limit.   The items they push on the market are LARGER than O31 curve so your choices are very limited.   I still have my original 4X8 from my childhood and recently "upgraded" to a landscaped 4X10 complete with everything but the trains to run on it.  I got it for a THIRD of what it cost to build and its ready to run!!  Someday I'll clear off the plasticville buildings and such, remodel it and expand it, but for now it fits my train room nicely.

 

Thanks for the replies so far.  I've used 4x8's, HCD's and 30x72 plastic folding tables in my short time back in the hobby.  

Dennis - there may not be "hate" for the 4x8 here, but in other discussions, especially HO, it seems to me it is looked at with disdain.

Ace posted:

The hobby magazines seem to focus on large elaborate layouts which are often beyond the means of mainstream modelers. If there was more coverage of interesting affordable smaller layouts, it would help more people get started in the hobby.

Ace, unfortunately I think that's the way with magazine industry as the point is to sell magazines and advertising.   I've seen the same thing for years with car magazines.  Every month there is a super car on the cover that 90% of the readers will never purchase much less see one in person on the street.  But that's what moves magazines, the dream of attaining something that may be beyond reach.  If they had Accords and Malibus on the covers, the magazines would never leave the rack, never mind the fact that the bulk of the readers are probably driving middle range cars like the 2 that I just mentioned. 

Last edited by Amfleet25124
Bermuda Ken posted:

I have no hate for the 4X8, but train mfgs do!!!  Only the starter sets are designed to be run on them due to the O31 curve limit.   The items they push on the market are LARGER than O31 curve so your choices are very limited.   I still have my original 4X8 from my childhood and recently "upgraded" to a landscaped 4X10 complete with everything but the trains to run on it.  I got it for a THIRD of what it cost to build and its ready to run!!  Someday I'll clear off the plasticville buildings and such, remodel it and expand it, but for now it fits my train room nicely.

Bermuda Ken, the Plasticville fits perfectly!  If anything, add some more 

I certainly have no hate for 4x8 layouts. As with a lot of people, my first layout was on a 4x8  piece of silver-painted plywood, which accommodated my original O-31 layout, with a couple of O22 switches making a nice through siding. My present layout is just a magnification of that, and includes those same switches. And, yes, I have a lot of Plasticville, too.

Last edited by jay jay

I don't see any "hate" for the 4x8, especially since so many of us started with that in one scale or another. However, if you MUST stick to that single 4x8 sheet of plywood, I might suggest using O-48 FasTrack in place of the H.O. track in this little gem (you're going to lose the passing sidings, though):

Heart_of_Georgia_Layout

The H.O.G. is an 8x9 layout (12" deep tables) created by cutting up a single sheet of plywood into 12" wide strips, cutting 12" of two of them, then making diagonal cuts to make the corner gussets. Instead of the 18" radius (O-36) limit of the 4x8, you can run a 24" radius (O-48) or even 30" radius (O-60) if you so choose.

Just a thought.

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You can get 5x10 plywood, cost aint cheap though.

Someone laminted mine top for fun, pressed with 2x4 cribwork and a pickup truck on top. Wouldnt take a dime; wanted the wood gone.

You can barely fit 027, O, and Super O together on 48 inches, so Im sorry but I caved in, 4.5x9.  I wanted a FEW inches for scenery.

....., but wanted a siding more,,.. and then a platform too. Then I built up. An el.

 The reach is the best reason to build small. Mobility another. It may also eventually be moved and become part of something larger. I see my " little" layout as a module. Id like a group of them, each in different stand alone themes, all interconnected by two main lines.

 

AGHRMatt posted:

I don't see any "hate" for the 4x8, especially since so many of us started with that in one scale or another. However, if you MUST stick to that single 4x8 sheet of plywood, I might suggest using O-48 FasTrack in place of the H.O. track in this little gem (you're going to lose the passing sidings, though):

Heart_of_Georgia_Layout

The H.O.G. is an 8x9 layout (12" deep tables) created by cutting up a single sheet of plywood into 12" wide strips, cutting 12" of two of them, then making diagonal cuts to make the corner gussets. Instead of the 18" radius (O-36) limit of the 4x8, you can run a 24" radius (O-48) or even 30" radius (O-60) if you so choose.

Just a thought.

Matt, I really wish I had seen this layout design before I built my layout. I'm going to use this a a base for a design for a buddy. BTW you can use a combination of O48 and O36 to get a wider radius curve on a 48 inch wide piece of plywood. That's what I did on my layout.

I agree with PLCProf...the problem is the small room or the space available for a model train layout. The venerable 4' x 8' eats up a lot of people space. So, around the room solves that.

The second problem with limited space is the track to scenery ratio.

Lastly, I have found (look at some small space designs) that the smaller layout requires a of lot switches to keep it interesting. This causes the budget shock.

But, haters, I don't think so. If you read or talk to someone that's hating on any model railroad get away from them. A model railroader does what they can with the resources available to them and that's good enough for me.

I plan to build in this room a layout of 5' 8' because that's all the room I have to do so. Why not 4' x 8' I would like to have more than one loop and need minimum of O42 for some of my engines. So I will go with O54 to help the over hang somewhat . 4' x 8' I believe is the start of every great railroad empire. 

Mine has an outer loop with 042 curves, no switches or uncoupling tracks. That allows me to run absolutely anything on it.

The inner loop has standard "O" gauge curves, with switches and uncoupling tracks.

Probably just that 'Bigger is better!' thing.....like the infatuation with nearly bi-annual manufacturing runs of Big Boys.

Maybe a new trend should be started....sorta like the Nixon-era's 'Ping-Pong Diplomacy' thing: Layouts based on a sheet of 'ping-pong' plywood......2.74 m long and 1.525 m wide, which is about 9 by 5 feet.   Larger lumberyards either have them in stock (finish carpenters love them for custom furniture/interior work for their larger size, multiple plies, smooth surface, flatness, stability, etc.) or can special order them.   For our great hobby, they graciously allow for larger radius curves in the design of a small layout.  And, since storage and play space for ping-pong tables is a fairly common/accepted practice in the home, interior real estate/zoning agents should have little argument against its accommodation. 

No, not cheap....by big-box store standards for 4X8 sheets of 'plywood' imported from the Ho Hum Woodworks, Ltd of Wangbang, China.  But when the hours of fun and enjoyment will come from a $XXX locomotive...or two...powered by a $YYY  whizbang control system, and a few $ZZZ of cars/accessories .......who's pinching pennies at the starting point?.....right?

And, as for the memories of fourbyeight disdain from the Haughty Obnoxious crowd, ...phooey on them!

FWIW, always...

KD

Follow the money. Look at what is being promoted and see who gains by being attracted to that message.

A sheet of 4' X 8' plywood sells the set and loop and sets the hook.  Drooling over media photographs and diagrams sells reading material and encourages dissatisfaction with what you have.  New or unique anything is designed to entice your dollars and tickle that itch.  The message is frequently "Buy (or build) our _________and you will be satisfied".

It has been said "If you are not satisfied with what you have you will not be able to be satisfied with what you want".  IMO, for joy in the hobby,  pursue contentment with peace.   

I should have listened to my mother when  she said "Your eyes are bigger than your stomach".

I am building far more than my Daytimer and birth date  allows.

 

BTW, 4' X 10' , 5' X 9' and 5' X 10' are available sheet sizes in the greater Delaware Valley. Not in box stores.

I use a pair of 1 1/8" X 5' X 10' sheets in my work shop  and stock 4' X 10' for longer one piece spans.

5' X 9' Ping Pong plywood makes for a great HO island layout.  At average heights an average person can reach everything.

 

Last edited by Tom Tee
 

Question on the venerable 4x8 on why there are so many in the hobby (in all scales) against it. 

Are you sure there are "so many" - I wasn't aware that there were such. 

Maybe it's just a small number of vocal folks on the internet and mags? Maybe not really representative of the majority and of reality?  Maybe it's not worth the electrons being expended on this worry or concern.

Why does anyone really care - do what you want and have fun.  Why do folks worry so much about what others claim to be "right"?  Think for yourself and question authority!

Ace posted:

The hobby magazines seem to focus on large elaborate layouts which are often beyond the means of mainstream modelers. If there was more coverage of interesting affordable smaller layouts, it would help more people get started in the hobby.

Yes. CTT had a section called Railroading in a Small Space, or something titled similarly, from time to time in their magazine. Things like this are very useful to the majority of operators.

As has been said many times, in much of the country, houses don't have basements, or folks live in apartments or townhouses, etc., or for whatever reason they don't have the space or resources or time available to build large layouts. I'd say the vast majority of operators fall into this group. Looking at much of the writing about O gauge (including this Forum oftentimes), some people seem to forget this reality.

As has been said many times, in much of the country, houses don't have basements, or folks live in apartments or townhouses, etc., or for whatever reason they don't have the space or resources or time available to build large layouts. I'd say the vast majority of operators fall into this group. Looking at much of the writing about O gauge (including this Forum oftentimes), some people seem to forget this reality.


I have long felt that this emphasis on big is detrimental to "growing the hobby". Interested folks pick up a magazine, and/or read the discussions, and come away thinking that they just don't have the space. (or money) to build those layouts.

Gentlemen,

    While it is true that the newer trains are engineered for a bigger layout design, 4x8 layouts are easily adapted to the newer trains.  In fact my multi-level Christmas layouts fit on 4x8 and smaller Platforms without any problem.  I use both FasTrack and RealTrax and cut custom close out pieces with my Rockwell X2 portable table saw, as needed to complete the track design.  Using the correct track design and engineering knowledge 4x8's are still viable for our O gauge Train layouts.

PCRR/DaveDSCN1696

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Last edited by Pine Creek Railroad
breezinup posted:
 

As has been said many times, in much of the country, houses don't have basements, or folks live in apartments or townhouses, etc., or for whatever reason they don't have the space or resources or time available to build large layouts. I'd say the vast majority of operators fall into this group. Looking at much of the writing about O gauge (including this Forum oftentimes), some people seem to forget this reality.

Excellent post, Breezin.  I, personally, have found much satisfaction looking at well done, "medium" sized, O scale layouts.....that I loosely define as 16-25 feet in length.

If I had the space to build something that big, I'm sure I would.....but for many people, it's hard/impossible to fit something bigger than 20 feet wide between their walls.

Amfleet25124 posted:

Question on the venerable 4x8 on why there are so many in the hobby (in all scales) against it.  There are already endless discussions on the internet that say it takes up too much space in the room, the plywood could be better used if cut into 2 foot wide strips for a switching layout, it’s too far to reach over, etc., etc., etc..

Maybe I’m missing something here, but how is that any different than a 6x10 (unless the majority of 6x10’s are in basements) which doesn’t get the same amount of flak as the 4x8?  Looks like the same space eating 2 feet on all 4 sides to me.  I’ve seen many photos of small to medium size layouts on the internet and magazines that have 4 or more feet of spacing against a wall with nary a mention of a cut-out for access to the rear.  I’m guessing that topside creepers are used in those cases, but how is that any different for a placing a 4x8 layout against the wall?

Just like I’ve seen 6x10’s with the center cut out, I’m sure that there’s someone out there that has a 4x8 with a 2x6 center cut out to operate it.

The significant difference that I can see between the 4x8 and the 6x10 is that the 6x10 requires extra carpentry skills instead of having everything already pre-cut for you (foam, lumber, etc.) at the store.  Is there a hobby elitist aspect to the hate? 

I have had a few 4x8 boards.If you do not do it right they will warp.They are hard to carry.I had apartment one I built a small o gauge layout.I was on the secound floor.It was not easy going up the stairs and around corners.By myself I should have asked for help.Thing is I had just moved in.I would have gotten foam board instead.

Bermuda Ken posted:

I have no hate for the 4X8, but train mfgs do!!!  Only the starter sets are designed to be run on them due to the O31 curve limit.   The items they push on the market are LARGER than O31 curve so your choices are very limited.   I still have my original 4X8 from my childhood and recently "upgraded" to a landscaped 4X10 complete with everything but the trains to run on it.  I got it for a THIRD of what it cost to build and its ready to run!!  Someday I'll clear off the plasticville buildings and such, remodel it and expand it, but for now it fits my train room nicely.

 

I've been following this thread with interest and despite my urge not to, I wanted to chime in. 

There is nothing wrong with a 4x8 - most of my layouts have been 4x8s. Below are photos of my current layout. I recently just added a small 4x4 extension. Not because I was bored, just because I wanted to. 

Personally, I like running "train sets", or at least, train set length trains. I don't like running a million cars. 4 or 5 cars is just fine by me. Not to mention, you can run PLENTY of stuff. It isn't just 0-27 trains. I have scale diesels - SD90, GP9, etc. All run fine on 031 curves. MTH Railking is most of my stuff. I just got another MTH Imperial ES44, have an MTH SCALE Dash 8 that glides around the layout. Some may say it doesn't look good but hey, looks fine to me! Of course, I've got plenty of smaller diesel switchers and the like. 

As for steam - I do have the small engines - 4-4-2s, 0-6-0s, etc. I always enjoy running my MTH Railking Imperial Y6B (2-8-8-2 - big engine!), my N&W Williams J 4-8-4, which is NOT a small loco, Postwar steam and more. 

Before I built the 4x4 bump out, I could run 3 trains and a trolley. Now I can run 4 trains and a trolley. I have every intention of adding another elevated trolley line in the near future. It may get a bit stale occasionally but I pull another train off the shelf, do some switching, etc and it is fun again! I've been asked by a few folks with limited space for input on getting the most out of their layout. As one person said "You're an expert and jamming a lot into a little spot....."

 

I should also mention - this has all been done in my basement in my house - a townhouse! Could I build layouts 2 or 3 times the size of what I have now? Sure I could! Plenty of room. Granted I'd have to do it all in stages to keep the wallet happy but do I intend to do it? Nope. Only other enlargement of my current layout I'm considering is taking my club module and modify it to act as a yard/siding but that isn't something that will happen in the near future, if at all. I do plan to add another trolley line, a bump and go in the near future, if a certain engine (not naming names!) in my collection will keep running and stop quitting on me! Also, of course, if my pre-orders don't just show up at once like they have!

345rtetrwefdsoiuypokrtyu

 

This is where you can see the 4x4 addition I added. unnamednnn

 

This was my previous layout, which started as a 2 train 4x8. It grew with another small 4x4 bump out. IMG_0015IMG_0016IMG_0017

 

That 4x8 above grew with another 4x4 bump out. IMG_0381IMG_0382IMG_0383

 

In between the current layout and the old layout above, I built some temporary 4x8s below. I couldn't decide what I wanted to do so these layouts only lasted a few months at most. IMG_0888

IMG_0272IMG_0604

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It is too bad that IMO so many topics and conversations revolve around large layouts.  No question they are terrific.   But we are missing out on seeing many great small layouts and the creativity and imagination that goes along with them.  I'd love to see some included in the magazine or shared via a post.

I've had big and small (mostly small) layouts and I can honestly say I've gotten the same pleasure from both.   I generally don't pay any mind to anyone who feels the need to rain on another hobbyist's parade simply because is is different from their own. 

Big or small makes no difference. As long as your layout gives you pleasure and fun, then you have the  perfect layout.  

Ed

Amfleet25124 posted:

 Maybe the feeling of disdain for the 4x8 isn't as prevalent on this side of the world (O) than in others.

Try asking about a "Rabbit Warren" among a group of English folks and youll find scowling is not just for other scales. And their homes tend to be even smaller.

Snobbing is universal; human nature from fun or serious, rich and poor alike.

Last edited by Adriatic

Nice post...and layout....DennyM.  Going from a "simple" loop to an L really makes a big difference/improvement.

I had actually drawn up a neat L for myself....but changed that to the Layout Drawing that I just posted b/c I could only make the L work with 0-72 on the outer and 0-63 on the inner main lines......and I opted for bigger curves over the L.

"Hate" is an awful term in anyone's vocabulary, IMO.. We all start 'somewhere' and typically it's a 4x8 sheet of plywood on the floor or wherever.. At times, I see too many judgemental posts about this and that on this forum and on other forums also..  The bottom line is we should be in this together!!! Not everyone has 'deep' pockets and/or a 3000 square foot area or bigger to build an 'empire'.. Or the skills..  My current layout is 4x10.. I'm in the process of building a bigger layout that is within my financial means and limited by space available to me.. I have 'fun' when I have a derailment on the back side of my layout.. PIA, yes, but it was the area I had to work with at the time..If anyone finds my post offensive, I apologize in advance.. Just my $.02.................

I am so new to the 0-gauge that I have only purchased a big box of track. (More stuff is ordered.) Due to space considerations everything needs to be portable and stack-able. Both cars will be parked in the garage every night.

The first layout I will build is a 4x8 for my son. It has to split, stack, and slide under his bed when not in use. I am basing construction on the Lionel modular specifications. The second requirement is that it joins with a modular segments so that it can be part of a larger layout. The modular main line will act as a siding for the smaller layout. Here is a screen shot of my plan:4x8 O0oo

An earlier version fit on 4x10 and needed three segments to store it. The problem with it is that it would not fit in his bedroom without using the bed as a tunnel or removing furniture.

4x10 8Ooo

 

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CivilEngineer posted:

I am so new to the 0-gauge that I have only purchased a big box of track. (More stuff is ordered.) Due to space considerations everything needs to be portable and stack-able. Both cars will be parked in the garage every night.

The first layout I will build is a 4x8 for my son. It has to split, stack, and slide under his bed when not in use. I am basing construction on the Lionel modular specifications. The second requirement is that it joins with a modular segments so that it can be part of a larger layout. The modular main line will act as a siding for the smaller layout. Here is a screen shot of my plan:

An earlier version fit on 4x10 and needed three segments to store it. The problem with it is that it would not fit in his bedroom without using the bed as a tunnel or removing furniture. 

A layout which has to be assembled and dismantled and stowed away will be cumbersome and inconvenient. You might consider a long narrow layout table to fit along a wall over the furniture like this:

 Long narrow layout for limited space

2012-2426-train-table-3x11

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Last edited by Ace

My wife has aesthetic requirements, so the permanent narrow layout will get vetoed. My kid will be 5 when I am ready to give it to him. He needs something low so he can see the action. I'll probably sit the layout right on the floor so the setup will be quicker without legs. Add the joining pieces, align the other side, turn the roto-locks, plug, and play.

Since it is portable, I have the option to move it to a family room for playing. With minimal accessories he can also incorporate his other toys. I've got plenty of open-top cars coming so he can make his own dinosaur train.

It can always be re-purposed as-is to be part of a bigger modular layout and replaced with something smaller if it doesn't work out. I don't mind holding on to the scrap lumber if the whole thing is rebuilt.

Last edited by CivilEngineer
CivilEngineer posted:

My wife has aesthetic requirements, so the permanent narrow layout will get vetoed. My kid will be 5 when I am ready to give it to him. He needs something low so he can see the action.

Since it is portable, I have the option to move it to a family room for playing. With minimal accessories he can also incorporate his other toys. I've got plenty of open-top cars coming so he can make his own dinosaur train.

It can always be re-purposed as-is to be part of a bigger modular layout and replaced with something smaller if it doesn't work out. I don't mind holding on to the scrap lumber if the whole thing is rebuilt.

This about how I got started back in the hobby.. My younger daughter (about 5 then) took interest in trains, for whatever reason.. She 'discovered' boys and lost interest, but I was 'hooked' again.. Now it's my Grandson's turn.. He always wants to run Papa Neel's trains.. I think I have more fun than he does.. I let him pick out the trains he wants to run and away we go.. Unfortunately, I'm divorced now, but the one advantage there is that I have a free reign of what I choose to do with the trains.. I'm limited only by room size and my  imagination!!

Berkshire President posted:

Nice post...and layout....DennyM.  Going from a "simple" loop to an L really makes a big difference/improvement.

I had actually drawn up a neat L for myself....but changed that to the Layout Drawing that I just posted b/c I could only make the L work with 0-72 on the outer and 0-63 on the inner main lines......and I opted for bigger curves over the L.

Thanks Berkshire,

It just started evolving that way. I wanted a train yard and that's what started it. I'm going to replace all my 0-36 curves with 0-48. That will be next years project. The horseshoe curve on the end of the 'L' is 0-48. I wish I had space for a bigger cure, but 0-48 will work out nicely.

Last edited by DennyM
CivilEngineer posted:

I am so new to the 0-gauge that I have only purchased a big box of track. (More stuff is ordered.) Due to space considerations everything needs to be portable and stack-able. Both cars will be parked in the garage every night.

The first layout I will build is a 4x8 for my son. It has to split, stack, and slide under his bed when not in use. I am basing construction on the Lionel modular specifications. The second requirement is that it joins with a modular segments so that it can be part of a larger layout. The modular main line will act as a siding for the smaller layout. Here is a screen shot of my plan:4x8 O0oo

An earlier version fit on 4x10 and needed three segments to store it. The problem with it is that it would not fit in his bedroom without using the bed as a tunnel or removing furniture.

4x10 8Ooo

 

Looks like a good plan. I would probably use the top design myself or mix the two designs up. That's what I did on my original 4x8 layout. It was suppose to a elevated outer loop with a inner loop that went under it. Instead I didn't elevate it and used a 45 degree cross track.

Last edited by DennyM
Amfleet25124 posted:

Question on the venerable 4x8 on why there are so many in the hobby (in all scales) against it.  There are already endless discussions on the internet that say it takes up too much space in the room, the plywood could be better used if cut into 2 foot wide strips for a switching layout, it’s too far to reach over, etc., etc., etc..

Maybe I’m missing something here, but how is that any different than a 6x10 (unless the majority of 6x10’s are in basements) which doesn’t get the same amount of flak as the 4x8?  Looks like the same space eating 2 feet on all 4 sides to me.  I’ve seen many photos of small to medium size layouts on the internet and magazines that have 4 or more feet of spacing against a wall with nary a mention of a cut-out for access to the rear.  I’m guessing that topside creepers are used in those cases, but how is that any different for a placing a 4x8 layout against the wall?

Just like I’ve seen 6x10’s with the center cut out, I’m sure that there’s someone out there that has a 4x8 with a 2x6 center cut out to operate it.

The significant difference that I can see between the 4x8 and the 6x10 is that the 6x10 requires extra carpentry skills instead of having everything already pre-cut for you (foam, lumber, etc.) at the store.  Is there a hobby elitist aspect to the hate? 

I agree with the "We all started with 8' x 4"s."  But as we grow smarter we realize that trains just don't continually circle.  I'm getting dizzy just thinking about it.  Secondly, you can get more surface and layout in an averaged sized room with better access NOT using rectangular sheets of plywood.  And, the trains don't have to continuously loop.  How about switching some cars around?  How about delivering and picking-up?   Just random thoughts...A layout will be more enjoyable if one has more to do than just watch the trains circle.  I'm NOT a hater.  ;-)  I'm a "Let's improve our design techniques" advocate.   

I've got two 4x8's stuck together in an L, my 4 year old likes to watch it go around in a circle. I've got some delivery tracks and some sidings for us to pull the train onto, but he just likes to watch it go around and around and push them all around.

Maybe when both the boys are older I'll expand, but for right now, my needs dictate something you can walk around and push a train, so 4x8 works alright for us.

 

Here's a 4x8 layout I came up with a while back. Its O27 with 42" curves around the outside. The inner reversing loop goes up and over the other track, but I'm not sure how to show that on scarm. I had to cut a couple of pieces of straight track, but it did all come together. The outside loop allowed for larger engines. My personal problem was that my older, cheaper engines could not make it up the incline very well. I took it all apart, but it sure seemed like a cool layout for a 4x8. A person could even add a turnout or two in the middle.4x8 layout

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I can think of several remedies for alleviating this hatred of the 4X8:

1. Convert it to metric. This would render it 12192 x 24384, if you remove the decimal point. This is similar to the rulers sometimes used by fisherman.

2. Do therapy to help others overcome their denial that their layout is still 4 x 8, in spite of creative configurations.

3. Form an online support group for those with 4 x 8 o'phobia.

I think this issue is a kissing cousin to the 3rd rail phobia that sweeps through our hobby.

Watching a train loop is akin to watching a campfire for me. I only mess with the rest on occasion.

 If the trains werent there, Id be doing dioramas like I did as a kid, or building model cars, planes, boats, sculpting, painting, etc. The trains bring all that together; not the space.

In essence, the head of a pin can hold a beutiful picture , but I dont expect everyone to be able to see that either

The beautiful thing about about using a screw to attach the track is that they can come out so that it can be reconfigured as your desires change. Right now he is in to lots of circles and switches. In my layout I do have bumpers that can be removed so that I could attach a thin layout and extend it in the house. 

If I were trying for a hyper-realistic layout then a tight configuration against the wall might be a better option. I plan to also build a modular system for the garage that will satisfy my need for longer runs.

Hi Folks,

     Anyone who grew up in Baltimore (where the layout was called a "Christmas Garden"), a 4 x 8 sheet fit nicely at the front window out-cove of the row homes (with the marble steps), in the space next to the vestibule in the front parlor. I imagine other east coast cities had homes with a similar space.  As I understand it (before my time), it was commonplace back in the 1930s - 40s in many neighborhoods in what is now called Southeast Baltimore.  Wish I had photos.  Perhaps the Baltimore Sun or the Maryland Historical Society would have photos and stories.  You could walk down the street and see the layouts through the front windows, at eye-level.  My mother said people would ring the door bell and you would run the train for the passerby, sometimes invite in those you knew.  Must have been a wonderful time!!!

Take care, Joe.

 

 

Last edited by Joe Rampolla

Hey, we work with the space we have.  Make the layout the best it can be no matter how small.  Remember the old cliche " good things come in small packages".  I think this is true.  4x8 in o gauge can be a nice creative challenge when it come to track plan, scenery, choice of locos and rolling stock, operation, etc.  Don't forget one can also build upward too, adding a partial second deck and elevated trolly or train line.  One can become amazingly creative within4x8. 

I say "in 4x8 make it great and forget the hate!"  ( btw - hate is a very strong word and IMO a poor choice for use in this thread ) 

A funny thing happened. I was wandering the web looking for some 4x8 plans in another scale. Somehow I ended up back here on this old discussion. I mostly ghost around on here because I don't have a large scale layout to share photos of - much as I would like one.

My personal Model Train goal is to achieve the greatest amount of train satisfaction in the least amount of space.

Sheesh, if only I had the space for a 4x8 in any scale!

Lack of space means I have my O scale trains, my HO scale trains, and my N scale trains all stored away while I experiment with a 3 x 4 1/55 layout.

I agree with those who say the magazines do not focus enough on the regular model railroader, or the beginner. Sure, show me a couple huge layouts, but give me at least one creatively built small one in the mix.

I don't think it s much hate but we've all seen posts where someone says "I'm building a layout and want to know whats a good idea for a 4x8 sheet of plywood?" and about 3/4s of them say go with a bigger layout, you won't like that small size. I've even seen a post where someone was building their 10 YO kid a layout and someone told them to go with O72 because one day they might get a scale locomotive. Really? I believe that's where Amfleet is coming from, not so much hate but suggesting to a newb that he needs to go bigger because that's what they did/want and not giving the guy any real ideas that he can use unless he goes bigger. Some people don't want more, don't want to go bigger or don't want to spend the extra money right now just getting into it. They do it to everyone, ask about a 6x10 and several will chime in with if you split it in half or add onto it to make it an L you can yadda, yadda, yadda.  Kudos to those who do try to help them out within their size constraints or track limitations and the show them how it can be added to or enlarged later on if they want.. Kind a reminds me of asking someone to come over for a BBQ and them suggesting I get steamed crabs instead because that's what they usually do on the 4th (that has happened to me for real). So ease up guys, I know we all like bigger layouts but let the new guy work his way into it, show him just what can be packed into a small space, I've designed some pretty neat layouts, albeit rather simple, that fit on a 36" hollow door core and sometimes a smaller layout forces you to make design decisions based on a more limited pallet of ideas and available things you can use.



Jerry

@CSXJOE posted:

To any 4x8 haters.

Here is a link to  4x8  I built and still have which was based on the D-190 display layout.  Lots of accessorizes and a fairly long track run (engine is not chasing the caboose).

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...yout-updated-7122012

It is also on a wheeled frame made from Harbor Freight moving dollies.

Joe, I just caught up with your post, now almost 9 years old!! Incredible job, I can't believe it didn't get a thousand likes.

For our 2020 Christmas Layout, we built a 4x8 (plywood with 1x2's for underside framing) that sat upon our Dining Room Table.

The O-Tubular trackplan was a fairly simple oval with a passing siding and one stub siding (3 022 remote switches in total).

The difference maker was that we wired it up in old-school style with 4 OTS's in key locations and 6 switchable power blocks so we could park conventional locos and actually do some pretty cool switching maneuvers with two locos on the layout simultaneously.

4 X 8 is good to see what the trains look like running and not much else. If that's all the room you have you really should be into HO or better N. At least with some imagination the trains look like their going somewhere.

                                                                                         

                                                                                                         http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Tom-Hanks-orly.gif                                                                     



Jerry

Last edited by baltimoretrainworks

One of the best kept secrets has been a 5ft x 9ft ping pong plywood that was easily bought in the 1950s and 1960s.  My father was a good builder and woodworker and built our childhood train board from a 5 ft x 9 ft ping pong table.  That extra foot in each direction allows many more track plans and just more room.  He later bought another sheet and made us a ping pong table.  I think in most cases it would have to be special ordered but could be had.

It is not necessary to be limited by the size of the plywood to make any size train layout one wants.  It is hard to move even a 4 x 8 so to move it around it is easy to make two smaller layout boards.

Charlie

Last edited by Choo Choo Charlie

A few examples as food for thought:

  • A tall guy can pull off a sport coat with contrasting trousers because he is tall.  A short man would look better in a matching suit.
  • A big marching band can create a nice effect with contrasting color guard uniforms.  A small band will look bigger and better when everybody matches.
  • A McMansion might fit on an 80x100' lot, but it won't look right.


O scale on a 4x8' layout looks like the McMansion on the 80x100' lot or the short dude in the sport coat or the tiny little band on the big field.  The trains are simply too large to look their best on the run of track provided to them.  We could debate what scale is most successful at 4x8', but I think most of us know deep down on the inside that "O"  trains are too big.

Of course, life is full of compromises.  They build McMansions on tiny lots.  They sell sport coats in smaller sizes.  They make marching bands out of whatever personnel is available.  Do what makes you happy, but don't put your head in the sand and ignore the limitations of whatever path you pursue.

Why must we judge how another person pursues their train hobby?  We all face compromises of space, time, money, skill, etc., and we all have different likes and desires.  There's plenty of information available about the pros and cons of various approaches - we can all do some research and decide for ourselves.

A close friend has a 4x6 HO layout that consists of a loop with a couple of sidings.  He likes creating scenes and building scenery and could care less about switching or realistic operations. He has a stressful job, and watching the train run through the scenes relaxes him.  He's been a model railroader for 60 years and is well versed in the history, theories, and techniques of model railroading.

As long as a person does what makes them happy and doesn't do anything dangerous, I'm all for it.

The love/ hate of 4X8 layouts.

This forum is amazing, a 5 year old topic pops up containing a link to a 9 year old topic.

Hi. My name's Bob and I am a member of The 48 Club......Hi Bob!

@baltimoretrainworks- I might steal your artwork and hang it on a wall.  I hope it's not copyrighted
already.

I built what I could fit, I'm having fun, and I'm proud of it. Yes, one day when the kids are out of the house, I hope to build a bigger layout with wider curves, etc., but for now this scratches my itch. So many folks comment that they have all their stuff in boxes and don't even have a layout so having a layout, any layout, is better than none. I can run two trains and do a lot of switching so it keeps me interested. It's also a good proving ground to practice and sharpen one's modeling skills.

2020-02-15 09.36.54

5-19 sidings

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I have to chime in here and take exception to a common assumption in many of the responses: the idea that  magazines are only interested in publishing large layouts. There is one very logical reason that you don't often see small layouts featured on their pages--a magazine can't publish what it doesn't have. I know Allen Miller will back me up on this.

In addition, any layout, regardless of size, must be visually appealing or offer something unique. This is hard to do on a 4 x8, especially one that has more than one loop of track on a flat green tabletop. Add a few operating accessories and there is very little space for much else. Another factor is the enviroment. A small layout in the corner of a cinder block wall basement, in a spare room with a visible widow in the background, or in a cluttered space, is a challenge to even a professional photographer. Ask me how I know. 

So, the onus is on you. If you want to see more small layouts, you need to submit your layout to see if there is any interest. Remember, you don't have to be a professional photographer but your photos do need to be lit well and be technically usable in terms of file size. Any editor will gladly help you with composition.

@jay jay posted:

I certainly have no hate for 4x8 layouts. As with a lot of people, my first layout was on a 4x8  piece of silver-painted plywood, which accommodated my original O-31 layout, with a couple of O22 switches making a nice through siding. My present layout is just a magnification of that, and includes those same switches. And, yes, I have a lot of Plasticville, too.

This is the only photo I have of my layout, as it was back in 1961. This version was on a 4x8 plywood table, and had two O22 switches back to back at one end, allowing an inside loop as well as the outside loop. The first version of this layout had an O22 switch at either end, allowing for a passing track. The signal bridge and the light tower still serve on my present layout, along with the Santa Fe F3s and all the freight cars, etc. As can be seen, "scale" was not much of a concern. We had fun with these small layouts for years.

old layout 4 [2)

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You sure can run scale 3R O Scale on a 4 x8. I purchased an Atlas LO-7 O36 track package which fits a 4x8. I run Lionel Legacy B6SB, 4-6-6T, A6 (4-4-2), Mikado, Ten Wheeler plus many Atlas, Lionel diesels pullnig my collection of Atlas O freight and passenger cars all scale. I have Mernard Buildings with tunnel sides if I which I can use for switching operations. My larger scale items ie VL go to the local club.Perhaps I run smaller consist normally using 2 locomotives. I am planning a larger layout but for now fun, learning, honing skills, sharing with friends this is where it is at.

@RSJB18 posted:

Hi. My name's Bob and I am a member of The 48 Club......Hi Bob!

@baltimoretrainworks- I might steal your artwork and hang it on a wall.  I hope it's not copyrighted
already.

Hi Bob! Not at all use it, I'm still working on the By Laws of the 4x8 Club and other such things that one has with a club, might even make up some type of membership card. I do need to figure out what font that is, I stole it from online and cut and pasted the letters to make it in PrintShop, it would have been a whole lot easier just downloading the font!  I see however what this discussion is about seems to be falling on deaf ears. By hate I think we mean tone deafness, condescending ( however unintentional they may be ) remarks and the assumption that many who model in 4x8 some how don't understand the limitations of it, on the contrary we do and make every attempt to use that to our advantage or to mitigate it as best we can or just ignore it and do what we want to. Everyone of us in 3 rail have at some point have dealt with some of the scale rivet counters sneering at us as a group but then some go about doing the same thing to their own brethren. We don't need or want a pat on the head and a "Well at least you tried but blah, blah, blah..." I'm fortunate enough to have a bit of space in my basement for a larger layout, 8x12 but even that has horrendous limitations that according to some posters here would make it better if I went smaller in scale. I don't want to go on a rant and maybe I have already but to tell someone they are in the wrong scale or that they can't run a scale Big Boy on a 4x8 (like we don't already know that) doesn't seem very sympathetic and certainly isn't helpful. And for the record I do have a 4x8 that I set up after I dismantled my layout and hope to be able to incorporate it into the living area of my basement remodel so I do have a dog in this fight. Well I have to go, my wife's making kielbasa and kishka and I have to turn the crank on the sausage stuffer.



Jerry

Jerry I am with you 100%!  I wish I had room for a 4 X 8 layout. I’m limited to 3 X 9.  I really like what I have, can run 2 trains, and I’m planning to add a small elevated loop or trolley line.  This is a big hobby with room for everyone.

Homemade kielbasa and kishka!  You better keep her happy so she sticks around.  😀

John

Love the Art Deco logo.  Count me in as charter member!  My 4x8er has kept my grandkids and me occupied for a number of years while we worked on a plan for a 17 x 25 walk through (The space finally became available recently).  But there are no plans to disassemble the our 32 sq. ft. empire.

Although the layout features some Plasticville buildings, the rest is more scale-like.  I use Atlas track for the two mainlines and long switches for the crossover and sidings.  I run all scale motive power, including some with three axle trucks, with both DCS and Legacy.  How about a slogan?   "Celebrate the 4X8"  or "Dare to run on 32 Square".   Oh, this is fun!

Got to go. My switch list awaits.

Peace

Earl

           

No hate for the 4x8 here. I started out in the 4x8 club, operating in a guest room. Years later,  with the consent of the cco, I was fortunate to graduate to the 2 x (4x8) club with the addition of another sheet of plywood.  Anyone who says a 4x8 layout is not enough to have fun doesn’t know what they are talking about. My kids and I had countless hours of fun with that original 4x8 layout. Just look at bobs set up above. What is that - 14 switches and an equal number of power blocks? That looks like a boatload of fun and an operators dream. Sure, we all want that big basement with huge space but for many of us, that isn’t happening, particularly for me down here in Florida. Nevertheless, we are by no means deprived of the enjoyment and fun associated with this great hobby.

Last edited by Strap Hanger

No hate for the 4x8 here. I started out in the 4x8 club, operating in a guest room. Years later,  with the consent of the cco, I was fortunate to graduate to the 2 x (4x8) club with the addition of another sheet of plywood.  Anyone who says a 4x8 layout is not enough to have fun doesn’t know what they are talking about. My kids and I had countless hours of fun with that original 4x8 layout. Just look at bobs set up above. What is that - 14 switches and an equal number of power blocks? That looks like a boatload of fun and an operators dream. Sure, we all want that big basement with huge space but for many of us, that isn’t happening, particularly for me down here in Florida. Nevertheless, we are by no means deprived of the enjoyment and fun associated with this great hobby.

You are correct SH. I run conventional so power blocks are a must. My next project is to add a third spur to the yard in the middle. Car storage is premium on a small pike. Here's the current and new plan. I bought some MTH scale-trax switches and will modify them to fit. The old 5122's are as close together as possible.

Current New yard MTH031

2020-12-26 12.18.13

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  • 2020-12-26 12.18.13
@RSJB18 posted:

You are correct SH. I run conventional so power blocks are a must. My next project is to add a third spur to the yard in the middle. Car storage is premium on a small pike. Here's the current and new plan. I bought some MTH scale-trax switches and will modify them to fit. The old 5122's are as close together as possible.

Current New yard MTH031

2020-12-26 12.18.13

Looking good, Bob. A wise decision for this addiction we share. Adding on more side tracks invariably leads to filling those side tracks/yards with more trains!  I did the same with my main level when I grew from the original 4x8 layout. Almost all of the extension was devoted to a storage yard. This is what I wound up with:C7E783EF-60E3-428A-9C4A-2509E8EE94E2

Which soon became this, with wonderful additions to my pike-

86038685-BB4A-48D2-A994-4E0BC5A6B964

One suggestion though. Like you, I originally ran only conventional. One day, I picked up a dcs system and I was blown away by how much more fun it is to run in command mode on a small layout.  Try picking up one of those dcs commanders and try it out.  It can run 3 trains at a time. If you have more Lionel, get the older  tmcc system.  Also, on small pikes, command control works really well with all of the power blocks that we have.  Signal strength has never been an issue for me, and I have 4 levels with over 20 independently powered sidetracks in total connected to the dcs. Running the conventional stuff on a layout wired for command control is also not a problem.  Give it a try.

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Last edited by Strap Hanger

Looking good, Bob. A wise decision for this addiction we share. Adding on more side tracks invariably leads to filling those side tracks/yards with more trains!  I did the same with my main level when I grew from the original 4x8 layout. Almost all of the extension was devoted to a storage yard. This is what I wound up with:

Which soon became this, with wonderful additions to my pike-

86038685-BB4A-48D2-A994-4E0BC5A6B964

One suggestion though. Like you, I originally ran only conventional. One day, I picked up a dcs system and I was blown away by how much more fun it is to run in command mode on a small layout.  Try picking up one of those dcs commanders and try it out.  It can run 3 trains at a time. If you have more Lionel, get the older  tmcc system.  Also, on small pikes, command control works really well with all of the power blocks that we have.  Signal strength has never been an issue for me, and I have 4 levels with over 20 independently powered sidetracks in total connected to the dcs. Running the conventional stuff on a layout wired for command control is also not a problem.  Give it a try.

soon

IMO it’s all a matter of perspective. A small 4x8 layout can look as good, if not better than, a larger layout if every thing is kept in proportion. By that I mean, if building a smaller O scale layout then running smaller consists pulled by smaller engines. And of course adding the appropriate sized buildings, figures and scenery will really bring it to life. MELGAR’s NYT&BRR that was featured in run 316 of OGR is a great example of a small layout done beautifully.

Looking good, Bob. A wise decision for this addiction we share. Adding on more side tracks invariably leads to filling those side tracks/yards with more trains!  I did the same with my main level when I grew from the original 4x8 layout. Almost all of the extension was devoted to a storage yard. This is what I wound up with:C7E783EF-60E3-428A-9C4A-2509E8EE94E2

Which soon became this, with wonderful additions to my pike-

86038685-BB4A-48D2-A994-4E0BC5A6B964

One suggestion though. Like you, I originally ran only conventional. One day, I picked up a dcs system and I was blown away by how much more fun it is to run in command mode on a small layout.  Try picking up one of those dcs commanders and try it out.  It can run 3 trains at a time. If you have more Lionel, get the older  tmcc system.  Also, on small pikes, command control works really well with all of the power blocks that we have.  Signal strength has never been an issue for me, and I have 4 levels with over 20 independently powered sidetracks in total connected to the dcs. Running the conventional stuff on a layout wired for command control is also not a problem.  Give it a try.

Really nice looking layout.

John

Hi. My name's Bill  and I am a member of The 48 Club......!

Maybe Miller Engineering can help us with building a logo

Often thought that on the layout design forum layout dimensions in the topic would be helpful. As much as I like the very large layouts, 4.5' x 16 is about all I can do and the .5 is a stretch.

Last edited by bptBill

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