why do they make diesels with smoke units?

Hot Water posted:

Signalwoman posted:

a diesel engine pouring white smoke isn’t a good thing in my experience, so why do people want smoke units in diesels? to me it’s always seemed like unnecessary accessory to justify higher cost, but i’m curious what you guys think about them.

My experience has been; because "smoke", and all the other "steam exiting features", are for play factor in the toy train world.

I was good with your answer Sir.  

It applies to me and most of my guest operators. 

Now watch the first minute and 1/4 of this video and tell me what color smoke I am seeing?

To me, it's closer to white than black. To others? I don't know.

How about from 21:50 to around 23 minutes? What color is that smoke? I feel it's like my video posted earlier of the MTH GP.

The way I understand diesel combustion is white smoke means the combustion chamber is too cool; and black smoke means the combustion chamber is sufficiently hot but there is too little air (oxygen) to completely burn the fuel.

There should be no smoke coming out of a new Tier 4 locomotive,  If there is, that unit has a real problem.

Engineer-Joe posted:

Hot Water posted:

Signalwoman posted:

a diesel engine pouring white smoke isn’t a good thing in my experience, so why do people want smoke units in diesels? to me it’s always seemed like unnecessary accessory to justify higher cost, but i’m curious what you guys think about them.

My experience has been; because "smoke", and all the other "steam exiting features", are for play factor in the toy train world.

I was good with your answer Sir.  

It applies to me and most of my guest operators. 

Now watch the first minute and 1/4 of this video and tell me what color smoke I am seeing?

To me, it's closer to white than black. To others? I don't know.

How about from 21:50 to around 23 minutes? What color is that smoke? I feel it's like my video posted earlier of the MTH GP.

 

apart from the gp9 that looks like it needs a set of rings, it all looks more black to me.

i’ve seen a few people here mentioning 2 stroke engines, i honestly hadn’t considered that. i didn’t think there were many 2 cycle engines of this size, but white smoke certainly makes sense there. 

Signalwoman posted:

apart from the gp9 that looks like it needs a set of rings, it all looks more black to me.

i’ve seen a few people here mentioning 2 stroke engines, i honestly hadn’t considered that. i didn’t think there were many 2 cycle engines of this size, but white smoke certainly makes sense there. 

Signalwoman,

Do not confuse the 2 cycle engines on lawn mowers, chain saws, weed-walkers, etc., with the large 2-stroke cycle prime movers in EMD railroad locomotive applications. Those small 2 cycle engines I mentioned are all gasoline fueled internal combustion engines, and thus must have oil mixed with the gasoline in order to lubricate the piston rings & cylinders. 

The EMD 2-stroke cycle engines in railroad locomotives are Diesel engines and have NO OIL mixed in to the diesel fuel, but have their own internal pressurized oil lubrication system, even including cooling the underside of the piston crowns with pressurized lube oil. 

They add smoke units to diesels to look and act like the real thing.  It gives the illusion there is an actual engine inside these toy locomotives instead of low voltage AC up the center rail. Even though they are a bit of work to maintain I sure enjoy them. 

As far as new locos smoking, just watch. That's all I do. Sure in theory they shouldn't smoke much. I can only imagine it's from the total hours and harsh conditions that these things are going thru while we are home comfy in our surroundings. Just how many hours are already on some tier 4s? Maybe some have things going wrong much earlier than expected?

 I see the newer versions smoking in videos. I'm sure if I searched I could find videos of the newest tier 4s smoking. I've seen them smoking when throttled up harshly in person and can only guess at why that is. I'm not on a RR maintenance team who can give definite answers on each and every unit in question. I'm a hobbyist who enjoys the effect, clearly more than most posters here do. So bash away at anyone who enjoys an effect that probably isn't going to be accepted by real RR workers or the ones who think they're experts. It's a diesel engine and all diesel engines smoke. You can treat the exhaust for so long and in real world conditions, things change, break, and/or wear out. I'm guessing more than fellow foamers think?

 Imagine a youngster who can hit a button and simulate an engine having a mal function by smoking? You probably can't yet you can imagine those oversized lobster couplers, third rails, oversized wheels, large (oversized) hollow rails, huge gaps, etc., etc., aren't bothering you? 

& Why do I have to justify to you what I like? 

Steims posted:

They add smoke units to diesels to look and act like the real thing.  It gives the illusion there is an actual engine inside these toy locomotives instead of low voltage AC up the center rail. Even though they are a bit of work to maintain I sure enjoy them. 

 

That's impossible! Photo is fake! All those must be worn out? That smoke is black! Oh the humanity!!!!!!!!!

Smoke unit in an Atlas Dash 8 40BW model.   Fan driven, (bottom left).  The Blue device is a thermister, to cut electricity to the element, low fluid.  Black cartridge is the smoke heating element.   Smoke fluids are a liquid that boils at a relatively low temperature.  Smoke is a vapor or condensing vapor of the product placed in the smoke unit.  Some serious thought and expense in this part of a model, IMO.  

Note:  There are diesels without the smoke unit.  Most, or all, Atlas SW8/9 models do not have smoke units.  ?? no room under the hood??   ??Similar MTH models do have smoke units??

Let me start with a disclaimer: I seldom see rail service of any kind. I don't live close to any railroad tracks.

Any diesels with computer control combustion systems are programmed to run at their most efficient fuel/air settings. "Closed Loop" (steady speed anywhere from zero to maximum speed) the combustion is stoichiometric; i.e., the ideal hydrocarbon fuel yields products of combustion of only CO2 and H2O. "Open Loop" (changing throttle position) requires "mapping" the fuel/air ratio for all fuel demands as they change. This requires a good "tuner" (programmer). 

I would think that, these days of environmental stewardship and laws, that each design was capable to meet emission standards. Those typically are strongly averse to visible effluent (smoke).

I wonder if fuel quality (water or other contaminant) might adversely impact stack effluent.  Any appreciable amount of water in the fuel might cool the combustion chamber sufficiently to cause white smoke. This could quickly reveal itself running "open loop".

I don't know if open loop/closed loop is used at all in railroad terminology. It is used relative to tuning modern cars. My experience is having my non-stock 419 cu.in. powered 2005 Dodge Magnum dyno tuned. 

Engineer-Joe posted:

… Our grandson said once, "don't wreck my fun!" ...

Wise words from the little nipper! 

I smoke 'em if I got 'em. 

Good morning, in this horsepower class of diesel engines there is still at times a visible exhaust trace from the engines exhaust.

Although the engines are cleaner burning than their earlier counterparts the Tier 4 emissions for this horsepower class is still not a (no visible emissions from the exhaust) as with the newer over the road trucks and some heavy equipment being manufactured today.

My wife and I  occasionally watch trains at a location called Conpit on the Pittsburgh NS main line. If the trains are heading east which is up hill at this point on the railroad you can visually see the black exhaust being omitted from the engines exhaust.

These engines are usually traveling 45 to 50 mph so they are not at crawl where the lead engines are trying to get a consist moving from a dead stop.

If the sun is out and is low in the western sky the exhaust is even more prevalent. All these NS road engines are the latest and greatest as far as the Tier 4 emission goes.

For a diesel model train to smoke, I think MTH could have toned down the smoke output or make the smoke output appear when the engine sees a quick increase in speed or just randomly come on possibly sensing the amperage being pulled by the engine while traveling around ones layout.

Either way another program would have to be written and developed for the diesel engines electronics which is expensive for the manufactures.

This past holiday season we set up a layout at the Indiana Mall here in Indiana PA.

On the layout this year we ran modern MTH diesel engines and at times we turned the smoke units on and the visitors visiting the display seem to be impressed with the smoke output so it does have a visual affect on a person watching.

As mentioned earlier in this thread the smoke brings play and a somewhat realistic feature to a diesel engine that really has no visual motion and sound to go with the visual motion as with a steam engine.

As with all models with smoke if you don't want it to smoke turn it off.

Remember they are still (expensive) toys that allows us in this hobby to create our own little worlds !!!!

MarkStrittmatter posted:

I think MTH could have toned down the smoke output...

You do know there is a smoke "volume" to control just how much comes out, right?

I was at Port Clinton yesterday.  Those very nice fine folks at the RBMN RR signed us in and let us watch their trains all day.  It was VERY fun.

And this one was smoking...

Have Fun with or without smoke.

Ron

I only have LC+ diesels and I always run them with the smoke on.  I'm modeling the late 50's early 60's era and the EPA wasn't even a thought yet.   The way I look at it is, run them how you like, that's why there is an on/off switch!  But, for me, the more smoke there is the better!!

Paul

Signalwoman, I agree with you. I never use the smoke unit in my diesels but just wait tell they stop putting smoke units in them. People will complain tell the cows come home. Don

I like running smoke with one of my favorite scents I don’t care if it’s prototypical or not. Kind of aromatherapy and train therapy all in one! 😑

Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:

Pleasant changeable fragrance.  Steamer comes around, a nice nose hit, close your eyes.  Then relive childhood memories.  Life’s to short.  

👍

The best use of smoke units I have seen in engines not steam, are those in models of the UP turbines.  They all smoked tremendously when in use before the seventies came around.  As for other MTH diesels I have with smoke units, some I have removed.  Between the smoke fluid getting into places not needed, not wanted, and difficulty putting the shell back on because the fill funnels do not want to all line up at the same time...…  Besides, it supplied me with fan driven smoke units for use in other motive power for upgrades or repairs.....  I, too, feel diesels are nice with smoke, sometimes.  But do not need smoke produced from all my diesels to enjoy them.

Jesse   TCA

If it ain't smokin, then it ain't rollin !!

On my layout - LOL

Chris Lonero posted:

I like running smoke with one of my favorite scents I don’t care if it’s prototypical or not. Kind of aromatherapy and train therapy all in one! 😑

Apple pie or Christmas pine for me

They make diesels with smoke units because people wanted them!  Not everyone has the same tastes in model railroading.  I sometimes run with diesel smoke on and sometimes with it off.  I have diesels without smoke, and that's fine as well.  However, if you don't like diesel smoke, you don't have to use it, so I don't see what the big flap is.

I think the question was asked because it seems like most people on this furum worry about being so "prototypical".   From paint to sound to rivets to the amount of chuffs.  But when it comes to smoke, they have it  billowing out like a blast furnace to the point where it looks silly!

While I have seen some smoke coming from diesels, it is typically more like this photo I took near the AZ/NM border on the BNSF transcon.  With the telephoto lens you can see how the heat of combustion distorting the atmosphere.  No smoke per, just heat and a clean burning prime mover. 

Personally I turn smoke off on all my diesels.  Just my preference.

Smoker!    Russ

I run DCS so i can set the volume to what i want and when i'm climbing my nice long 2% grade  I throttle up the prime mover sound and smoke starts coming out, if its a long train I hit the labor button now more smoke and more RPM's (I keep my smoke set at the minimum on diesels). at the same time I reduce the ground speed. Oh ya now where talking. Five diesels, 2% grade. running in notch 8, ground speed less than 20mph, and light smoke coming out fast.

Thats why i want smoke in my diesels. 

clem k posted:

I run DCS so i can set the volume to what i want and when i'm climbing my nice long 2% grade  I throttle up the prime mover sound and smoke starts coming out, if its a long train I hit the labor button now more smoke and more RPM's (I keep my smoke set at the minimum on diesels). at the same time I reduce the ground speed. Oh ya now where talking. Five diesels, 2% grade. running in notch 8, ground speed less than 20mph, and light smoke coming out fast.

Thats why i want smoke in my diesels. 

Thats the great thing about DCS, at least on the app, low, medium and smokem outta the house LOL

I like the aroma therapy from MTH Christmas scent. I'm also prototypically challenged.

Engineer-Joe posted:

Hot Water posted:

Signalwoman posted:

a diesel engine pouring white smoke isn’t a good thing in my experience, so why do people want smoke units in diesels? to me it’s always seemed like unnecessary accessory to justify higher cost, but i’m curious what you guys think about them.

My experience has been; because "smoke", and all the other "steam exiting features", are for play factor in the toy train world.

I was good with your answer Sir.  

It applies to me and most of my guest operators. 

Now watch the first minute and 1/4 of this video and tell me what color smoke I am seeing?

To me, it's closer to white than black. To others? I don't know.

How about from 21:50 to around 23 minutes? What color is that smoke? I feel it's like my video posted earlier of the MTH GP.

 

looks like we have been idling for a bit and the heavier parts of the fuel settled on the tops of the pistons anddidn't burn off till under a bit more throttle was applied.They sound like 4 cycle engines and the turbo compressors  wheels may have too much end play allowing a lot of low speed air slippage, also somebody up the supply line may be mixing in used motor drain oil

MR_P posted:

Thats the great thing about DCS, at least on the app, low, medium and smokem outta the house LOL

Lionel Legacy has the same functionality, low, medium, and high.

John...... does legacy have the engine labor feature also ? I'm not familiar with legacy.

Clem, Legacy has a way better labor feature than DCS, it's continuously adjustable.  You can get all sorts of labor levels using the full Legacy control, and the smoke level is indeed controlled based on the labor.  When it comes to control like this, Legacy still has the upper hand.  I love to have an MU pulling out a big string of cars with the momentum set high and the labor with the prime movers screaming at max RPM, lots of fun.

Good evening, here is photo and a short video of a East Bound NS Coal Train at Conpit on the Conamaugh Line.

These are newer NS road engines and as you can see they produce black smoke.

fastman posted:

Engineer-Joe posted:

Hot Water posted:

Signalwoman posted:

a diesel engine pouring white smoke isn’t a good thing in my experience, so why do people want smoke units in diesels? to me it’s always seemed like unnecessary accessory to justify higher cost, but i’m curious what you guys think about them.

My experience has been; because "smoke", and all the other "steam exiting features", are for play factor in the toy train world.

I was good with your answer Sir.  

It applies to me and most of my guest operators. 

Now watch the first minute and 1/4 of this video and tell me what color smoke I am seeing?

To me, it's closer to white than black. To others? I don't know.

How about from 21:50 to around 23 minutes? What color is that smoke? I feel it's like my video posted earlier of the MTH GP.

looks like we have been idling for a bit and the heavier parts of the fuel settled on the tops of the pistons anddidn't burn off till under a bit more throttle was applied.

More like the engine was cold, and not up to working temperature.

They sound like 4 cycle engines

No they don't, as EMD GP9 units are 2-stroke cycle engines without turbochargers, i.e. the have roots blowers mechanically driven off the rear camshaft gears.

and the turbo compressors  wheels may have too much end play allowing a lot of low speed air slippage,

Nope.

also somebody up the supply line may be mixing in used motor drain oil

Now just where did you come up with THAT assumption?????

What it does sound like is, the lead unit is either "hunting" or experiencing  wheel slip, thus unloading.

Why do you set the momentum high ?  I adjust the rpm's and  train speed separately.  My labor button just controls sound and smoke volume.   DCS momentum really just gives acceleration and deceleration rates.

Hot Water posted:

fastman posted:

Engineer-Joe posted:

Hot Water posted:

Signalwoman posted:

a diesel engine pouring white smoke isn’t a good thing in my experience, so why do people want smoke units in diesels? to me it’s always seemed like unnecessary accessory to justify higher cost, but i’m curious what you guys think about them.

My experience has been; because "smoke", and all the other "steam exiting features", are for play factor in the toy train world.

I was good with your answer Sir.  

It applies to me and most of my guest operators. 

Now watch the first minute and 1/4 of this video and tell me what color smoke I am seeing?

To me, it's closer to white than black. To others? I don't know.

How about from 21:50 to around 23 minutes? What color is that smoke? I feel it's like my video posted earlier of the MTH GP.

looks like we have been idling for a bit and the heavier parts of the fuel settled on the tops of the pistons anddidn't burn off till under a bit more throttle was applied.

More like the engine was cold, and not up to working temperature.

They sound like 4 cycle engines

No they don't, as EMD GP9 units are 2-stroke cycle engines without turbochargers, i.e. the have roots blowers mechanically driven off the rear camshaft gears.

and the turbo compressors  wheels may have too much end play allowing a lot of low speed air slippage,

Nope.

also somebody up the supply line may be mixing in used motor drain oil

Now just where did you come up with THAT assumption?????

What it does sound like is, the lead unit is either "hunting" or experiencing  wheel slip, thus unloading.

 

outside of Ca air board Cummins automotive operators have been re-cycling motor oil thru the fuel tanks for at least the last 50 years @3% or less Cummins actually made a oil change machine that did this

Oldcarsrule posted:

How about electrics with smoke?

Mth Bipolar electric has smoke. it is for the steam heat generator but is an odd feature for an ELECTRIC .

I ran it once with the smoke on, but it looked so odd  smoking between the pantagraphs that I haven't turned it on again.

Odd, but not. The GG-1 is the same. They used a diesel steam heat generator as the cars are steam heat. It likely wasn't cost effective to be safe enough to throw the heavy voltage at the water system. (on the passenger GG-1 (Tuscan) you will see lettering at the bottom of the GG-1 body "FUEL" and a filler tube below it. There is also Youtube vid. of a real one...smoking.  (Ha! b&w picture so the smoke is........grey 😈...   

Must've been awful not watching any tv until color became the norm 

...no classics without a Turner touch ¿??¿ 

Try aiming a violet led into/up the stack if you want color; the smoke will catch it and also make it look thicker. (these are bright, dim works too, note the deeper color in the shadows/overlaps of aim from 3 violet leds.)

I thought the newer locos smoked in load triggered stages already. 

I think the hotbox cars use a two stage voltage hi/lo (or mine has issues, but the chànge occurs with increased led action/ more panic in the voice) (essentially 3 load settings if you count being off)  

Hey.... Why would they take flashing leds, smoke, and the most annoying sound in the world and make a car?   Play value  

The Hotbox Challenge:  Search for a Lionel hotbox car video. Now loop the video loudly for an hour, I dare ya 😁

When your engines are new keep the smoke units off. As they get older turn the smoke on at the lowest setting. Later turn it up to medium. Finally you can turn the smoke up on full. After this run take them to the engine house for a rebuild. When they come out from overhaul turn the smoke off. Repeat. Doesn't get any more realistic than that.

When I hired on Conrail back in 1979 a lot of their engines were worn out and smoked. White or grey smoke from oil consumption. Black smoke from too much raw fuel going up the stack.

Marketing.  If you are a company producing, say an RS-3, and it is maybe your third or fourth "generation" of RS-3s, what can you do to sell it??  You have to add features.  Look at the Lionel progression: transformer control, TMCC, Legacy, and now Lion Chief, Lion Chief Plus, Lion Chief BlueTooth,  and Lion Chief Plus 2.0.  I have an RS-3 Lion Chief Plus in PRR.  Might I buy one that has 2.0 for better sound, TMCC and Legacy compatibility?  Maybe.  For sure SOME will.

Digital control = marketing.  Sound = marketing.  Different road names and numbers = marketing.  Smoke = marketing.  And if your competitor has smoke you better have it too, in order to sell yours.  And if his smoke is "smokier" - you better upgrade yours.  And, if somehow, one manufacturer develops "progressive smoking"- "Now with realistic progressive smoking- white smoke at warmup- black smoke under load!!"  people will buy that feature.  How many will buy for that is the question.

Not that it is bad- every one of these features add to our enjoyment.  But each of these features add different value for different people, to be evaluated by each of us.  

Mike Wyatt posted:

Marketing.  If you are a company producing, say an RS-3, and it is maybe your third or fourth "generation" of RS-3s, what can you do to sell it??  You have to add features.  Look at the Lionel progression: transformer control, TMCC, Legacy, and now Lion Chief, Lion Chief Plus, Lion Chief BlueTooth,  and Lion Chief Plus 2.0.  I have an RS-3 Lion Chief Plus in PRR.  Might I buy one that has 2.0 for better sound, TMCC and Legacy compatibility?  Maybe.  For sure SOME will.

Digital control = marketing.  Sound = marketing.  Different road names and numbers = marketing.  Smoke = marketing.  And if your competitor has smoke you better have it too, in order to sell yours.  And if his smoke is "smokier" - you better upgrade yours.  And, if somehow, one manufacturer develops "progressive smoking"- "Now with realistic progressive smoking- white smoke at warmup- black smoke under load!!"  people will buy that feature.  How many will buy for that is the question.

Not that it is bad- every one of these features add to our enjoyment.  But each of these features add different value for different people, to be evaluated by each of us.  

Yup, same thing with cars.  Who really needs a heated steering wheel, blind spot detection, stop and start engine when sitting still. I'm not business expert, but  1. It shows the advances the company is making. 2. "Oh look I like this new feature", it sells the new models.  3. It's a way to justify a price increase every year. Best part is, if you don't want it, turn it off from the handheld, app, switch or tender screw

I once saw a CXS WC dash 8 that left a trail of black smoke.I have seen my fair share of locomotives smoking.Ever seen a train with not enough power or almost at its limit.I saw 2 sd40-2 pulling a freight train of 145 boxcars.They were giving all they had.I do not know if all the cars were loaded.But I can tell you the train had a lot of gons with scrap iron.So yea they smoke if any thing it adds realism.And you can have smoke lightly or not.Its up to you.