Why does the Big Boy need a diesel helper? The answer from Ed himself.

Thanks Gary for posting.  I don't see how this would be out of line.

I think most 80 year olds would agree that a little help from a friend is a good thing.

Thanks for posting this info. Can we also assume that the diesel is there for PTC?

Sounds reasonable to me, as someone who can only guess at what it takes to keep one of these beasts running. One of the reasons they replaced steam with diesel was the labor involved to keep steam engines going. Others who have worked on these engines, driven them in service, could very well have a different perspective.  Thing is I am just grateful the big boy is running at all and people get to experience it, how 'real' that is compared to what it did in its heyday doesn't matter to me all that much. Sure, would I love to see big boy pulling a long train up a grade as it did in the day, but then again, I also wish I could do what I did when I was younger, like spend 72 hours straight awake doing something or the like

Don't see anything out of line with this post at all.  It is UP's locomotive and they can operate it in any way they choose to.  The fact that they are willing to make the investment in mainline steam at all is a good thing for me.

Evidently the 4501, 2839, 2716, 611, 765, 261, 819, 4449, 1522, 614, and all the other main line steam crews have been dong it wrong all these years. 

What a crock.

UP should be applauded for spending the money to restore these locomotives to anything like working condition.  Seems like a pure labor of love that must be a big "loss leader" for them.   (Can't imagine their freight revenue is going up at all as a result of preserving this history).  And I never questioned why there was a modern diesel along for the runs.  Always assumed it was obvious: to cover if the steam engine(s) broke down, to help them up grades, to provide assistance with electric power to the passenger cars, etc.  

@Alec_6460 posted:

UP should be applauded for spending the money to restore these locomotives to anything like working condition.  Seems like a pure labor of love that must be a big "loss leader" for them.   (Can't imagine their freight revenue is going up at all as a result of preserving this history).  And I never questioned why there was a modern diesel along for the runs.  Always assumed it was obvious: to cover if the steam engine(s) broke down,

How would that help? Far more likely that the diesel would fail before the steam locomotive (as has happen many times in the past).

to help them up grades,

Not really. The real "help" from the diesel is going DOWN grades, i.e. dynamic brake.

to provide assistance with electric power to the passenger cars, etc.

No. Freight diesels are not able to provide "electric power" (referred to as HEP) to the passenger cars. There are Power Cars in the train, which provide the 480 volt three phase AC power throughout all the passenger cars.

I won't question Ed Dickens, that way this thread won't get deleted.

What I WOULD like to know is......

How in the world can an all volunteer operation like the FWRHS afford to run the **** out of the locomotive like they do?

I saw the Horseshoe Curve video, as well as 765 in person at 70MPH in my home state with 21 cars and no diesel.

How much wear/damage occurred during these runs?

"Racks and racks of  brake shoes, drivers, rods, roller bearings.....? "  It seems foolish to waste the precious donated money.

@Rich Melvin

How about taking each of Eds points above as they would or wouldn't apply to the 765 and its crew ?

@Joey posted:

Evidently the 4501, 2839, 2716, 611, 765, 261, 819, 4449, 1522, 614, and all the other main line steam crews have been dong it wrong all these years. 

What a crock.

Not necessarily. How many of those engines go on the kind of trips that the Big Boy is doing? I realize that some of the engines you mention have done long trips, but I seem to recall that with the 765 when they were going over mountains they had diesels to be able to used dynamic braking (and I am going from memory on that).  All I am saying is you have to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges, that's all. Not to mention that long distance steam train runs these days are getting to be more and more rare, things like 765 going over Horseshoe curve aren't going to happen from what I understand because few if any mainline railroads will allow steam.

Other thing is the UP is a commercial railroad running steam, and I realize non profits have huge limitations on spending, when you are dealing with corporate America running a good will effort like the big boy, they are going to put pressure to save every dime and nickel, beancounters I swear are toilet trained at gunpoint.......so what he says makes sense.  Lot cheaper prob to replace parts on a diesel then it is an 80 year old steam engine, any load you can take off the steam engine makes sense. Is it 'pure'? Put it this way, if any of those other engines was being run by a real, class 1 railroad that is a public company I would bet pretty good money you would see the same thing (if any class 1 actually starts up a steam program again....)

@RickO posted:

@@Rich Melvin

How in the world can an all volunteer operation like the FWRHS afford to run the **** out of the locomotive like they do?

The 765 crew is not afraid of their locomotive.

How about taking each of Eds points above as they would or wouldn't apply to the 765 and its crew ?

I would love to, but I think I'll stay out of this one.

@RickO posted:

I won't question Ed Dickens, that way this thread won't get deleted.

What I WOULD like to know is......

How in the world can an all volunteer operation like the FWRHS afford to run the **** out of the locomotive like they do?

I saw the Horseshoe Curve video, as well as 765 in person at 70MPH in my home state with 21 cars and no diesel.

How much wear/damage occurred during these runs?

"Racks and racks of  brake shoes, drivers, rods, roller bearings.....? "  It seems foolish to waste the precious donated money.

@Rich Melvin

How about taking each of Eds points above as they would or wouldn't apply to the 765 and its crew ?

Excellent!  Plus, the previous UP Steam Crew didn't have similar concerns, all the while maintaining and operating 8444/844 and 3985. The "all volunteer" crew of SP 4449 hasn't had such "issues" all through the 1975, 1976 & 1977 tour of the American Freedom Train (with only a 4 man paid engine crew, and a number of volunteers), plus continued operations since 1981.

Ed's afraid of that locomotive for some reason.

@RickO posted:

I won't question Ed Dickens, that way this thread won't get deleted.

What I WOULD like to know is......

How in the world can an all volunteer operation like the FWRHS afford to run the **** out of the locomotive like they do?

I saw the Horseshoe Curve video, as well as 765 in person at 70MPH in my home state with 21 cars and no diesel.

How much wear/damage occurred during these runs?

"Racks and racks of  brake shoes, drivers, rods, roller bearings.....? "  It seems foolish to waste the precious donated money.

@Rich Melvin

How about taking each of Eds points above as they would or wouldn't apply to the 765 and its crew ?

My only comment is that the FWRHS is not a corporation, it has no stockholders, it is a non profit train organization. While it obviously has limitations on funding, non profits can pretty much do what they want as long as it doesn't violate tax law and their board is okay with doing it. They don't have fiduciary responsibility to stockholders and if they have the money to run without diesels and can do it, more power to them. Ed Dickens has to answer to corporate beancounters and executives who likely already are not all that thrilled by the steam program (would love to know the inside story about who the rabbis are that keep this going against the finance MBAs, the shareholder relations people who have to deal with hedge funds and other 'activist' investors).  Knowing how cheap corporations are, how insane they are with the littlest cost, Dickens response makes a lot of sense, he needs to really maximize what he has to be able to do as much as they do I would bet. Ed Dickens budget gets shot, Big Boy stays home. FWRHS runs low on funds, they fund raise to get more money, it is a very different beast (not saying a non profit has unlimited funds, saying a non profit is all people dedicated to keeping their engine going, the Big Boy and steam on the UP is at siege constantly against the corporate beancounters who have no soul and no goal other than to raise the price of UP stock.

@bigkid posted:

Ed Dickens budget gets shot, Big Boy stays home. FWRHS runs low on funds, they fund raise to get more money, it is a very different beast (not saying a non profit has unlimited funds, saying a non profit is all people dedicated to keeping their engine going, the Big Boy and steam on the UP is at siege constantly against the corporate beancounters who have no soul and no goal other than to raise the price of UP stock.

Ok. Fair enough. However, if it is up to the bean counters. It seems it would have been far more cost effective to keep 3985 running than completely rebuild 4014 from the ground up.

And where were these bean counters all those years when 3985 and 844 where operated as they were designed to do?

3985 spent some time near my house south of Chicago  running 60+ mph back in 1994. What is so special about the 4014 trip that hasn't already been done?

There is no fundraiser for 765 that remotely can touch the wallet of the UP RR.

@RickO posted:

Ok. Fair enough. However, if it is up to the bean counters. It seems it would have been far more cost effective to keep 3985 running than completely rebuild 4014 from the ground up.

The primary purpose of the UP steam program is public relations. The UP brass decided (very correctly, as it turned out) that putting a Big Boy on the line would boost public relations returns to the max, far more than the 3985 would.

The Big Boys are legendary and known to a large group of the public, and indeed the crowds that turn out for the Big Boy far exceed those who turn out for any other steam engine. For what the UP sees is the purpose of their steam program, 4014 is far more cost effective than keeping 3985 active. And don't forget, 3985 was in need of a major overhaul when the decision was made to restore 4014. That money was able to be put toward toward the restoration of 4014.

@breezinup posted:

The primary purpose of the UP steam program is public relations. The UP brass decided (very correctly, as it turned out) that putting a Big Boy on the line would boost public relations returns to the max, far more than the 3985 would.

The Big Boys are legendary and known to a large group of the public, and indeed the crowds that turn out for the Big Boy far exceed those who turn out for any other steam engine. For what the UP sees is the purpose of their steam program, 4014 is far more cost effective than keeping 3985 active. And don't forget, 3985 was in need of a major overhaul when the decision was made to restore 4014. That money was able to be put toward toward the restoration of 4014.

But wouldn't it have been cheaper to rebuild 3985 ? Don't get me wrong I'm glad they restored 4014.

I would agree with those who indicated that the crews who operate a steam program for a corporation have a far different set of considerations than those who operate in an independent volunteer organization. With a corporation in command, watching expenses, including doing everything possible to preserve the engines and reduce operating costs, is paramount to the steam crew. As soon as someone in the corporate office deems the operation too expensive, and the "return on investment" inadequate, the plug will be pulled. Volunteer organizations don't have that hanging over their heads.

@breezinup posted:

The primary purpose of the UP steam program is public relations. The UP brass decided (very correctly, as it turned out) that putting a Big Boy on the line would boost public relations returns to the max, far more than the 3985 would.

Hogwash! Every place the 3985 went, the vast majority of the visiting public thought IT was a "Big Boy". I can't tell you how many times , while on display, we had to explain what a "Challenger" was as compared to a "Big Boy".

The Big Boys are legendary and known to a large group of the public, and indeed the crowds that turn out for the Big Boy far exceed those who turn out for any other steam engine.

Really?

For what the UP sees is the purpose of their steam program, 4014 is far more cost effective than keeping 3985 active.

More hogwash.

And don't forget, 3985 was in need of a major overhaul when the decision was made to restore 4014.

Totally untrue! You have been listening to the current manager way too much. The 3985 was still 2 years away from the FRA mandated 15 year recertification. She was NOT "in need of a major overhaul"!!!!!

That money was able to be put toward toward the restoration of 4014.

Again, more bs!

I am duly impressed it only took 8 hours from the original post for the Ed haters to show up and devolve the topic with their usual horse crap.

Is it really that difficult to let interested people read about these things without interjecting your negative thoughts on EVERY SINGLE UP Steam Program thread?  Apparently it is, as the exact people I knew would show up and post, did.