Why isn't O Scale 2-Rail more popular with model railroaders? What can be done to increase 2RS's popularity?

@SANTIAGOP23 posted:

Three railers are more interested in boxes than in models. It’s the orange and blue that gets them.

I think O scale (2 and 3 rail) has more "box modelers" or "closet O scalers" (closets full of unused models or unbuilt kits) than any other scale!

Anyhow... after a few decades of collecting trains for a future layout I realize without a million bucks to have someone lay track and build a basement full of trees and mountains it was all fun but a waste of time.

Nice layouts take a long time and a lot of work.   And some of us just ain't got the time to spend hours and hours laying realistic track or building scenery. 

Yep, one can do a shelf layout or a loop in an unused room but real layouts with gobs of finished scenery (a la Ed Rappe, or a Norm Buckhart or Warner Clark or John Sethian or others ) take years and years to come to fruition.   And a lot of focus (and money) if you want it to be accurate for your road or locale.

Wonder how many folks have the time to do that in this scale?

@Rule292 posted:

Yep, one can do a shelf layout or a loop in an unused room but real layouts with gobs of finished scenery (a la Ed Rappe, or a Norm Buckhart or Warner Clark or John Sethian or others ) take years and years to come to fruition.

Nice layouts take a long time and a lot of work.   And some of us just ain't got the time to spend hours and hours laying realistic track or building scenery.

Who says shelf railroads aren't real layouts???  They certainly are real to their builders.  Not everyone is into large locomotives and long trains.

The same can be said for medium to large HO, N and S Scale (yes, there are some...) layouts.

Rusty

@Rule292 posted:

....

Yep, one can do a shelf layout or a loop in an unused room but real layouts with gobs of finished scenery (a la Ed Rappe, or a Norm Buckhart or Warner Clark or John Sethian or others ) take years and years to come to fruition.   And a lot of focus (and money) if you want it to be accurate for your road or locale.

...

I respectfully disagree. A shelf layout can have more than adequate scenery if the depth of the shelves is used effectively.

One of the best layouts I've seen was a "shelf layout" -- specifically the O scale 2-rail layout display at the California Museum of Science and Industry. I believe it was built in the 1960's. It was about three feet deep and was an "around the walls" shelf layout (secured from dust and fingers behind glass). It ran non-stop when the museum was open. My understanding is that the Troxel brothers (owned a train shop in Los Angeles) and members of the Citrus Empire O Scale Model Railroad Club maintained the equipment (All Nation locomotives and rolling stock) The construction included forced perspective using changing scales (1:48 up front; 1:64 in the rear), changing lighting and areas featured around Southern California. The layout is gone now (taken down sometime in the 1980's) as are the Troxel Brothers and Citrus Empire.

@Rule292 posted:

I think O scale (2 and 3 rail) has more "box modelers" or "closet O scalers" (closets full of unused models or unbuilt kits) than any other scale!

From what I've seen of HO modelers, no.  Having cleared out more than a few estates, I've found that they fill the storage spaces proportionally.

Anyhow... after a few decades of collecting trains for a future layout I realize without a million bucks to have someone lay track and build a basement full of trees and mountains it was all fun but a waste of time.

Nice layouts take a long time and a lot of work.   And some of us just ain't got the time to spend hours and hours laying realistic track or building scenery.

Right; instead of spending decades of collecting, one could have invested a bit of time during those decades building that layout.  You'd probably have a pretty good one by doing a bit at a time. There's no rule that you have to build it all in a day.

Yep, one can do a shelf layout or a loop in an unused room but real layouts with gobs of finished scenery (a la Ed Rappe, or a Norm Buckhart or Warner Clark or John Sethian or others ) take years and years to come to fruition.   And a lot of focus (and money) if you want it to be accurate for your road or locale.

Huh?  Shelf layouts are very real and in fact large layouts are just extended shelf layouts.  Many in fact due to their nature are very highly detailed. Again, time is what you make of it or how you waste it. There also no rule that you have to build a massive layout empire.    

Wonder how many folks have the time to do that in this scale?

Probably quite a lot; however, they seem to choose otherwise.

I want to follow up to my previous post.   I friend on the forum informed me that the group I found unwelcoming likely was a group with home layouts only and thus the unwelcoming based on my  3rail layout at the time.  Gets back to communication.  The member could have explained that reason and suggested other avenues to get involved.

But there are other factors all well discussed here.  My main point.  Do not pick on someone elses version of this hobby.  I think most of us get that. 

@New Haven Joe posted:

Christopher,

I infer that you are referring to the Strasburg show?  I saw the photos of the show in another post.  It appears to be a great show.  

However, one small show in what appears to be an OS2R rich area of the country is not an indication of the popularity of this hobby segment.  

My comment was referring to whether or not there is a problem. It looks like you equate lack of popularity with there being a problem, I don't.

Thanks for the compliment. I show my layout to as many individuals and groups who want to see it and that is about the extent of my contribution. I buy trains that fit the layout era and region but I'm not supporting any importer by buying goods I don't want or care about.

@christopher N&W posted:

My comment was referring to whether or not there is a problem. It looks like you equate lack of popularity with there being a problem, I don't.

Thanks for the compliment. I show my layout to as many individuals and groups who want to see it and that is about the extent of my contribution. I buy trains that fit the layout era and region but I'm not supporting any importer by buying goods I don't want or care about.

Christopher,

Your feelings about the popularity of OS2R are totally legitimate.  Obviously you have been able to find the models that you need to support your modeling region, era, and railroad.    

Others including David Vaughn and the members of the OSC Board feel that the declining popularity of OS2R is a problem for the continuation of the scale.  They felt this way long before I became involved.  The OSC Board is trying to reverse this trend.  Perhaps their effort will be successful, maybe it won't.  No one can predict what the model railroading hobby will look like in 25 years.  I will be over 100 years old twenty-five years from now.  It is unlikely that I will still be modeling.  My collection will have been recycled back into the modeling community for 10 cents on the dollar.  

I envy your modeling discipline.  I have many different models from the steam to modern era.  I like everything and tend to collect everything from multiple railroads.  This makes my modeling / collecting much more expensive than it would be if I stuck to one railroad and region.  I know many model railroaders that are just like me.  

I look forward to seeing more articles and photos of your layout.  I would like to visit it in person someday if possible.

Happy Model Railroading,  NH Joe

NH Joe,

I've known Dave for more than 20 years and wish him nothing but the best in promoting the hobby. As long as it makes him happy and he gets satisfaction out of it then that is great. Best of luck to those guys. But it also can be a lot of work and diversion from the layout and modeling. Dave always has a great attitude, but for some people when their passion turns to work, they can start to resent it. I've had experience in having a great passion for artistic painting turned into work and now I can't stand it. I'm always aware of this now and am adamant about not doing the same thing with my train hobby.

Also, you'd be welcome to the layout but you'd better get here within the next 2 days as it is getting packed up quickly for a trip to a new space. Then you'll have to wait a few years before it is fully reconstructed in its new home.

@Rule292 posted:

I think O scale (2 and 3 rail) has more "box modelers" or "closet O scalers" (closets full of unused models or unbuilt kits) than any other scale!

Anyhow... after a few decades of collecting trains for a future layout I realize without a million bucks to have someone lay track and build a basement full of trees and mountains it was all fun but a waste of time.

I hope that you had fun collecting trains and that you can get them out of their boxes and run them someday.  

I love circus trains.  I find hunting for and acquiring circus trains and other circus stuff to be an enjoyable endeavor.  I have both 2 and 3 rail circus trains.  I hardly ever run these trains because there is no space but I do enjoy owning them.  I did display them at a local museum before Covid.  Sometime, probably within the next five years, I will need to start selling these trains just because of my age.  This will be a sad day for me indeed.

It doesn't take any more time to build an OS2R layout than it does to build a layout in any other scale. In fact, it may take less time to build in OS2R in a given space because the builder will need less track, fewer switches, buildings, trees, etc.  OS2R models fill a given space much faster than models in the smaller scales.  The new buildings from Woodland Scenics and Menards help to quickly fill a city scene.  Installing decoders inside OS2R engines is much easier and faster than installing them in the smaller scales just because there is more room in a typical OS2R engine.  

It does take more space to build an equivalent model railroad in OS2R than it does in the smaller scales.  Lack of space to build a "dream layout" is the number one reason cited for modeling in a smaller scale instead of OS2R.  (See the discussion above.)  This is the reason I suggest considering forming a modular club or building an OS2R garden railroad.  Join an existing OS2R club if there is one near you.  All three of these options can help overcome the small or nonexistent basement problem.  The club, modular or permanent, helps alleviate the time problem because your modeling will be a joint effort.  NH Joe

@christopher N&W posted:

NH Joe,

I've known Dave for more than 20 years and wish him nothing but the best in promoting the hobby. As long as it makes him happy and he gets satisfaction out of it then that is great. Best of luck to those guys. But it also can be a lot of work and diversion from the layout and modeling. Dave always has a great attitude, but for some people when their passion turns to work, they can start to resent it. I've had experience in having a great passion for artistic painting turned into work and now I can't stand it. I'm always aware of this now and am adamant about not doing the same thing with my train hobby.

Also, you'd be welcome to the layout but you'd better get here within the next 2 days as it is getting packed up quickly for a trip to a new space. Then you'll have to wait a few years before it is fully reconstructed in its new home.

Christopher,  

Thanks for the invitation.  It sounds as if I will be waiting a few years to see it since I live in the SF Bay Area.  My brother lives in Jacksonville, FL.  I intend to get out there to see him during the next few years.  

@VistaDomeScott posted:

I want to follow up to my previous post.   I friend on the forum informed me that the group I found unwelcoming likely was a group with home layouts only and thus the unwelcoming based on my  3rail layout at the time.  Gets back to communication.  The member could have explained that reason and suggested other avenues to get involved.

But there are other factors all well discussed here.  My main point.  Do not pick on someone elses version of this hobby.  I think most of us get that.

That is a real shame. I could never be like that to somebody. While I prefer scale modeling I do not look down on any type of layout.  My closest friends are all 3 railers. Two if them have layouts and they are great layouts. I guess I will never understand why some people are like this. We all like trains. Just because some of us like different types of model/toy trains I see no reason to treat someone rudely.

@christopher N&W posted:

NH Joe

Also, you'd be welcome to the layout but you'd better get here within the next 2 days as it is getting packed up quickly for a trip to a new space. Then you'll have to wait a few years before it is fully reconstructed in its new home.

Christopher, I was lucky too see your layout in person many years ago. It was awesome back then and I am sure it is even better now. Will it be getting a bigger space? And when you built it did you build it with the thought in mind that someday it might have to get moved? If yes, what did you do?

@mwb I agree with everything you said in the post above. Very well stated!

Wonder how many folks have the time to do that in this scale?

Probably quite a lot; however, they seem to choose otherwise.   -mwb

-------------------------

Which reminds me of the sign I believe Jim Policastro has posted as you descend to his basement empire...(my apologies to Jim if I'm in error in any way!):

"I did all this while you were watching TV!"

It's become that nagging elfin creature on my shoulder when I'm watching something really inane, stupid, non-edifying, ....etc., on the boob-toob.  Besides, our chiropractor's advice is "Keep MOVING!!" 

FWIW...

KD

@dkdkrd posted:

Probably quite a lot; however, they seem to choose otherwise.   -mwb

-------------------------

Which reminds me of the sign I believe Jim Policastro has posted as you descend to his basement empire...(my apologies to Jim if I'm in error in any way!):

"I did all this while you were watching TV!"

As I have noted more than once, my layout, albeit small, is complete.  I tweak some details now and again if/when I get adequately motivated.

@christopher N&W posted:

Also, you'd be welcome to the layout but you'd better get here within the next 2 days as it is getting packed up quickly for a trip to a new space. Then you'll have to wait a few years before it is fully reconstructed in its new home.

I have always been impressed with the construction design of your layout and that dismantling it was so possible.

I look forward to seeing photos of it reassembled and running again.

     Historically, trains have run over huge expanses of the American West which have very few features, primarily deserts and the Great Plains.  A small to medium layout can be built to model these environments in a fairly short time, without spending tons of money or time on gadgets, buildings or extensive landscaping.  If you have ever travel east to west across the upper portion of the Texas panhandle, you would see what I mean.  A very occasional run-down storefront and gas station may be all that breaks up a 50 mile stretch.

   It would seem to me that anybody who has collected trains for years and years just plain enjoys the collecting aspect, and there is nothing wrong with that at all.  Yet, saying that a layout was never built because it would take too much time or money really just indicates that the collector never really wanted a layout to begin with.

Mannyrock.

@Strummer posted:

Agreed; plus, I don't see any "self-respecting" 2 railer using the UFO or some such other thing...🙄 😄

Mark in Oregon

Why not? There is a "prototype" in Bowman, SC; at least for the saucer portion and I may do something similar with mine:

@VistaDomeScott posted:

...snip... But there are other factors all well discussed here.  My main point.  Do not pick on someone else's version of this hobby.  I think most of us get that.

I am one of those that, although being a dedicated two-railer, get just as much pleasure out of running my three-rail trains on a friend's layout. If it ever came down to it, I would derive just as much fun playing with a Brio layout!

In regard to Menards UFO series, I wrote to Mark the Menards guy with a prototype idea. In Ashtabula, Ohio there was a UFO gas station that was an iconic landmark for decades.  It was recently destroyed as far as I know.  The Menards UFO could easily be turned into something more tuned into those of us more grounded in reality, a UFO gas station.

@Rusty Traque posted:

Who says shelf railroads aren't real layouts???  They certainly are real to their builders.  Not everyone is into large locomotives and long trains.

The same can be said for medium to large HO, N and S Scale (yes, there are some...) layouts.

Rusty

My 4' x 16' layout is real to me and that is what matters.

Dick

Hard to know!

@SANTIAGOP23 posted:

Hard to know!

If someone is looking for that level of detail, they are probably already in 2RS!  Otherwise, like myself and I suspect many others, it isn't a priority.  I'm firmly in the "20 footer" club.

Brendan

@Brendan posted:

If someone is looking for that level of detail, they are probably already in 2RS!  Otherwise, like myself and I suspect many others, it isn't a priority.  I'm firmly in the "20 footer" club.

Brendan

Cool,  but I'm a Santiago type modeler, don't the need the rails or the scenery but it needs to look correct from two inches.

@rdunniii posted:

Cool,  but I'm a Santiago type modeler, don't the need the rails or the scenery but it needs to look correct from two inches.

The same is true for girlfriends. Better look good from any distance.

@SANTIAGOP23 posted:

Hard to know!

Beautiful equipment, and those E6's are to die for

@Dave Koehler posted:

Beautiful equipment, and those E6's are to die for

Many thanks!

@SANTIAGOP23 posted:

Many thanks!

I do, am a subscriber

The biggest problem that I've had over the years is limited decal supply.  Microscale had a great inventory years ago, now...disappointing.  My decals primarily come from Jack McGary (Allegheny Scale Models).  He's the only supplier (that I know of) of NE anthracite roads and Amtrak early phase schemes.  

This is more of a PSA than a reason why O scale lacks popularity. Many years ago, one of my first trips to a club layout was to the Bay Ridge O Scale Model RR Club, located on Marine Avenue in Bay Ridge, a neighborhood in Brooklyn, NY. This thread got me thinking I oughta go back to see what these guys have accomplished in the many years since my first visit. This club may be the last outside third rail club.

I was surprised to learn they’ve relocated the club to the Trolley Museum of New York, in Kingston, NY. Not exactly around the corner. 120 miles and 2.5 hrs travel time.

https://www.tmny.org/bayridgemodelrailroadclub

@Mark V. Spadaro posted:

This is more of a PSA than a reason why O scale lacks popularity. Many years ago, one of my first trips to a club layout was to the Bay Ridge O Scale Model RR Club, located on Marine Avenue in Bay Ridge, a neighborhood in Brooklyn, NY. This thread got me thinking I oughta go back to see what these guys have accomplished in the many years since my first visit. This club may be the last outside third rail club.

I was surprised to learn they’ve relocated the club to the Trolley Museum of New York, in Kingston, NY. Not exactly around the corner. 120 miles and 2.5 hrs travel time.

https://www.tmny.org/bayridgemodelrailroadclub

It is interesting that the club is still using outside 3-rail.  The website also says that the club has 100,000 miles of wire and 500 relays to control their trains.  I would have thought that they would have updated everything to modern standards when they moved.  

The club is certainly running a piece of living model railroad history.  I wish them good luck.  I will try to visit if I ever bet back to New York state.  NH Joe

I just had another thought that added to less interest in O 2 rail.    I got into O scale from lionel and at the time, the only scale stuff was kits.   You had to build everything.   If you had the budget, which I did not, there were brass cars and the "good" locos from USHobbies and predecessor Max Grey.    The cars came without trucks and couplers.   USH did sell trucks separately.    The steam locos came as easy kits.    Basically the boiler-cab assembly was separate, any leading and trailing trucks were separate, and in many cases the motor was separate.    Most of this was screwdriver assembly with a little soldering for the electrical connections.    The tender trucks came but not mounted.   I was told that reason for these "kits" was because of the tariffs applied at the time.   the tariff on the parts/kits was much lower than assembled product.

Any thing you wanted other than brass, you built from a kit.   And there was no prefab track.   there were multiple vendors who sold rail, spikes and ties.    You laid your own.

However in HO by that time, a lot of ready to run stuff was coming although I think the brass was done the same way.    Athearn had its blue box shake the box kits which should have been embarassed to be called a kit!    Also the variety of product available was much greater in HO

So I think the younger guys found the RTR and easy to build stuff more appealing.    Also there was prefab track and switches readily available.     It just took less effort to do anything in HO.    I think this lead to many people not developing the skills to do their own building and repairs and wiring however.

@Mark V. Spadaro posted:

This is more of a PSA than a reason why O scale lacks popularity. Many years ago, one of my first trips to a club layout was to the Bay Ridge O Scale Model RR Club, located on Marine Avenue in Bay Ridge, a neighborhood in Brooklyn, NY. This thread got me thinking I oughta go back to see what these guys have accomplished in the many years since my first visit. This club may be the last outside third rail club.

I was surprised to learn they’ve relocated the club to the Trolley Museum of New York, in Kingston, NY. Not exactly around the corner. 120 miles and 2.5 hrs travel time.

https://www.tmny.org/bayridgemodelrailroadclub

Glad to see you back in the hobby, Mark.  Hope all is well.

I was living in NYC and visited the BR club several months before they got the boot.  There were only a handful of members left. I'm not really sure they "relocated" to Kingston, NY, rather the guys that were maintaining the layout donated it to some other guys up there.  I highly doubt the 3 gents I met from BK (he lived a 4 minute walk away), SI, and LI would trek 4 hours RT on any sort of regular cadence to continue working on the layout. It was a lot of work to even finally make contact with the club at that time and coordinate to get down there.

I'm not sure how much progress has been made in Kingston.  IMHO it was a big project to take on with how permanent the layout built (while structurally built really well, the wiring looked like a nightmare to have to piece back together).  The tracks still mostly worked well, but much of the scenery could have used sprucing up from 50 years of idling.  I glanced at their FB page, but the last real post was in 2020.  I'm guessing they're probably still working on it and don't yet much else to show. Would love to be proven wrong.

I do know that part of the elevated section that was behind terminal station now belongs to a transit guy in NJ.  He restored it and incorporated it on a new module layout that was at the Strasburg 2R Show in April. Kudos to him on rescuing what I thought was the most unique part of the layout.

In any case, I recorded my visit here:

https://davejfr0.blogspot.com/...lroad-club-2018.html

Take care.

David

Wow, Dave that was an epic last look at that wonderful club!!

You do a great job of capturing the essence of these old clubs.

Well done sir!

@CJ Meyers posted:

Easy, shrink it down to about half its size

They did CJ. It's called Half Zero, aka HO!    A huge reason there is not as much O, in fact probably the MAIN reason. Add to that the cost and availability of O scale as opposed to 3 Rail, HO, and N, and that's the Readers Digest answer. All that said, if money were no object, most of us would be driving REAL trains. I think we can get at least one former publisher to buy into that one!

ECI

Locally in Indiana we have no active 2 rail club that I am aware of.  There used to be a modular group out of Indianapolis but that layout has not been seen at shows in years.  But, I am told it is still around as its owned by one individual.  I have tried for several years to get this gentleman to sell the layout(going thru a middle man that was a member of the group) but have had little luck.  I want to model in O scale 2 rail, and am dabbling with traction due to my very small layout space.  I would love to get a 2 rail group going again locally, even if its just at shows when the layout can be set up.  I am at a loss of what to do in my area of central/north central Indiana.    Traction in O scale is so much better running, working overhead is easier to build.  Now if someone would make modern light rail in O scale RTR, that would be a nice shot in the arm.  One hinderance is most O scale traction cars are unpowered or have no trucks and modelers on the outside have no idea where to turn to power the car.  My MTS brass North Shore Brill coach had its trucks set off to Q-car for powering of one track and new wheels in the other to match.  Takes about 12 weeks to get your trucks back, then you have to modify the floor of the car to accept the powered truck.  So even brass cars are only semi RTR if you want them powered.  We are seeing much more 3d printed stuff in traction modeling in many scales.    Mike

I have the Chi-Town Union Station in Commerce Township, MI and the Detroit Model Railroad Club in Holly, MI that both use O Scale 2-Rail model railroads and yet have O Gauge/Scale on display (Chi-Town Union Station) or for sale (Detroit Model Railroad Club).

I think if a modular layout starting going to shows locally again, it would stir some interest.  Especially if we have some younger folks that are internet savy to promote the club/layout and why 2 rail scale is a great scale to model in.  To often we here the "why nots" and not the "why you shoulds".  From limited selection, to its all in kit form, high cost ect, ect ect.  Give it a hot positive spin.  easier to see, the heft of the models is impressive(also helps with less power pickup issues common in smaller scales).  Lack of space at home can be addressed in many ways.   A well detailed 2 rail layout is impressive and easier to achieve as ones eyesight ages.   There are many shows, both NMRA and otherwise that would be great to set up a 2 rail modular layout of any size.  I highly doubt there is enough local interest right now to support the costs for a building/rent to have a "home base" to keep the layout set up.  Chicago and Detroit are just to far to go for a regular club meeting with gas prices being what they are.  I plan to keep "hounding" my contact for the old Unafilliated O scaler's modular layout.  Maybe one day the gentleman that owns it will decide to pass it on and let a new generation enjoy it once again

There is a great O2R club in Rockford , IL 

I was up to the Trolley Museum of New York in 2019 and asked them to see the layout.  They would not let me go into where it was stored, but it was just sections cut apart and laying on their side, some leaning on other parts.  I "almost cried" when I saw it.  I will go up there later this summer and see what is going on and report back.  The museum was WAY understaffed and had "big plans" for the future.  I found myself in the same situation when I was into classic cars.  Wisdom sometime comes with age.  I get it, but at the same time it probably would have been much better, if the layout had gone somewhere else.  Almost afraid what I will find.

Sorry, should have stated my post was in reference to condition of the Bay Ridge NY Layout last mentioned in this post on May 19th.

@MainLine Steam posted:

Sorry, should have stated my post was in reference to condition of the Bay Ridge NY Layout last mentioned in this post on May 19th.

Sadly many historic train layouts have been lost of destroyed. Remember Frank Ellison and the Delta Lines? The last Lionel Display layout in Manhattan?  Charlie Wood's Lionel train layout that was in Gaslight Village in Lake George New York? It was custom built by Lionel. All gone...