I just love the prototype railroads, and I think 2 rail is more realistic for me. If you are ok with 3 rail, that is ok.
So many opinions it's challenging to figure out what's what. Can someone say definitively what curve diameters (or use radii) an O-scale 2-rail Big Boy or Challenger requires? If the consensus is that they need >120" diameters (60" radii) then I think we know the answer to the OP's question. However, it's not readily apparent to O-gaugers that by using an "around the room" layout configuration large diameters can be incorporated fairly easily.
Arguably, these are the two most popular models in 3-rail...at least given by how many times Lionel and MTH re-release them, lol.
Paul,
That is difficult to answer because different importers build to different specs. Consider that a 4-8-8-4 in three rail is basically a 2 coupled 4-8-0. For an importer such as MTH or Lionel or 3rd Rail, I'd expect that to make 60' radius easily. The same goes for the Challenger. The problem would come from importers such as Precision Scale, Overland and others who build to tighter specs and include tail beams. The larger wheelbase engines such as a 2-10-4 or a UP 9000 would be more of a problem from the 3 rail importers.
@Paul Kallus posted:So many opinions it's challenging to figure out what's what. Can someone say definitively what curve diameters (or use radii) an O-scale 2-rail Big Boy or Challenger requires? If the consensus is that they need >120" diameters (60" radii) then I think we know the answer to the OP's question. However, it's not readily apparent to O-gaugers that by using an "around the room" layout configuration large diameters can be incorporated fairly easily.
Arguably, these are the two most popular models in 3-rail...at least given by how many times Lionel and MTH re-release them, lol.
Why is it folks seem to think that everyone wants to run Big Boy's or Challengers? Model railroading in general is much more than that.
I've never owned a Big Boy in any scale in my life and I don't feel I'm missing out on anything.
Rusty
Mike Pitogo who used to post here regularly said his MTH Big Boy with scale wheels would go around a 36”R (O72) curve.
Paul,
I was thinking about it and I also think Matt from the club in San Diego said he ran a MTH 2 rail Big Boy on if not 36" radius then something close. He posts here often so hopefully he can answer.
I've test run my MTH class A 2-6-6-4 on 36" radius with no problem. I've run my Sunset 2-8-8-2 Y-3 engines down to 40 inch, The Y6 engines will run on 40" except the handrails stick way out on the backs of the cabs so they would require a longer drawbar. I don't typically run trains on that radius but for storage.
The MTH J class 4-8-4 will get down to 44" pretty comfortably, but on lower radius the engine needs to go very, very slowly and wants to straighten the track.
Rusty
You have a Challenger (in S, I think). What radius are you currently using on your "temporary" layout?
Phil
Wow; that sounds "tight" for a 4-8-8-4. I have a 2-6-6-2 (in 3rail) that will "do" an O63 (31 1/2"R) but it looks (almost) rediculous. 😁
And again (and I keep going back to this): the surrounding scenery is the same size (1/48) regardless of the track being used. So is there REALLY that much difference in the overall approach?
The old "spaghetti bowl" type of layout was, I thought, exposed for what it was back in the Linn Westcott days in "Model Railroader". Sure, you can cram as much track,trains,etc onto a 4x8 (or whatever) as you want, but if you're trying to capture the essence of "real life", then your options are doing a shelf type layout or... moving to a smaller scale. I'm sure you purists will disagree, but HO and N are just as capable as O of offering great, trouble free operation... but that's another thing altogether. 🙂
Mark in Oregon
I generally do not speak for other people but as a late 1940's baby boomer but I believe the following statement is true, in the 1950's Lionel had the major marketing in model trains, A.C. Gilbert American Flyer was the popular two rail model trains they were not marketed aggressively like Lionel. I know American Flyer is S Scale, the topic addresses 2 Rail O Scale, I prefer 2 Rail, S or O Gauge no center rail. Polarity is not an issue with 3-Rail outside rails are common the center rail is the power rail easier to wire. Also when I returned to the hobby in 1990 I had to make a major decision, the first being whether to build an S Scale model railroad using primarily A.C. Gilbert American Flyer engines ,rolling stock, track and power supply from the 1950's and 1960's I still believe S Scale is the perfect scale for residential model railroading. The second choice was 2-rail O Scale larger than S Gauge 2 rail the major issue was were to purchase 2 rail track , engines, rolling stock and power supply in Northern Indiana I would have to drive to Chicago or mail order purchases. The third choice was 3-Rail, Gargraves 3 Rail phantom track and switches were available locally, it was easier to purchase 3-Rail engines and cars even in Chicago or mail order plus my 1955 Lionel open frame Ac engine would run on this track. Therefor my model railroad is 3-Rail for practical reasons, preferences still are S- Scale or 2-Rail Scale, but given my age and investment I will stay with 3-Rail.
Lots of great OPINIONS here.
And I enjoyed all your OPINIONS.
Happy Easter everyone ☺️
@Hudson J1e posted:Mike Pitogo who used to post here regularly said his MTH Big Boy with scale wheels would go around a 36”R (O72) curve.
All O gauge Lionel and MTH big steam engines, including Big Boys and UP 4-12-2, are designed to run on 36 inch radius (O-72) curves. Some will run on a smaller radius. My own experience with my MTH NH 0-8-0 with scale wheels is that it will easily go around 36 inch radius wheels.
Like it or not, many model railroaders want to run or at least own big steam. This is the reason that every(?) major Lionel and MTH catalog during the past two decades has offered at least one big steam engine. Big steam sells. NH Joe
My early brass 3-rail Williams 4449 upgraded to TMCC command control on an O-72 (36 inch radius curve). Does it look bad? Only you can decide for yourself.
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@Strummer posted:Rusty
You have a Challenger (in S, I think). What radius are you currently using on your "temporary" layout?
Mark,
Nope. Not any more. Sold it a couple of years ago. The only Challenger I have now is a 45 year old AHM HO one that is in storage somewhere in the basement.
The temporary track is MTH R29.
But, getting back to 2-Rail O Scale: I found these YouTubes of a small temporary 2-Rail O built for Christmas. No size was given, but if I were to hazard to guess, it's about 8'x16'. Again, I'm guessing.
Sure it takes up some space, but it also shows you don't need a basement as big as Montana to have 2-rail O.
Rusty
Takes up too much space. It is a challenge with 3 rail ...finding space...much less Scale O 2 rail.
My previous post were about my journey into the hobby and how I fell into 3R, which was not what I intended when making the switch from HO.
On a more general side, one thing to keep in mind is the History of 2R vs 3R. Not assigning a specific year, but the Early era of model/toy trains, through the 1920's was Std Gauge. When O was introduced in 1930's the 3R was for MAINLY for kids toys (yes I know about the Lionel Hudson) and 2R was for adult modelers. There was a pretty clear and distinct division between the two, and this was what model railroading at that time. There was no widespread HO or smaller scales, the technology just wasn't there. Something called, I believe WW2 happened. Post war the baby boom fueled 3R toy trains big time. On the other hand 2R fell victim to the rise of HO. The technology was there to cost effectively make smaller scale models. HO became popular because they were relatively prototypical, could fit in the suburban tract home and were less expensive than their big brother. So it appealed more to many adults (than 3R) and there kids could play with it. That is how I originally got into model railroading. When I complained to my dad that the kid 2 doors down had boxcars that exploded when you fired a missile at them, WOW! I was taken aside it and it was explained that we had models not toys and why that was better. At 7 years old believes whatever your Dad tells you is correct. The take away here is it amazing that 2R still survives at all. It essentially became the high-end of the hobby, for those that could afford it and had the space required for the layout. Altas made an attempt to democratize 2R in the early 70's through an agreement with Roco. The success of which is questionable. I could argue without it 2R would be gone. Anyhow the 1980's and up is general knowledge to anyone on this forum. Models offered in both 2R and 3R sharing as many common components as possible to contain cost.
So to the original question why isn't 2R more popular? People tend to stick with what they have, unless like me something changes enough to change their course. Ref my previous posts. There are a lot more people presently alive that were raised on 3R then 2R. Once you have a layout set-up for that you stick with it. Plus with 3R you can run your child-hood attic finds, and the latest Scale model, on the same track if you have migrated that way as you have aged.
What can be done to increase it popularity? Many of the things previously mention by others in this post. But to me the fact it is "dying" is just part of the evolution of technology. Per my prior posts I chose 3R as it is a better fit for me. When I was young I knew someday I would be rich, and indulge my dream of an amazing O Scale 2R, hasn't happened. I consider myself fortunate that I have the money, and the Model Train market has taken the turns it has, so I can acquire some AWSOME 3R toys to play with. Not being wealthy the smaller radius afforded by Flangeless Drivers just works way better for the limited room I have. So to me unless someone makes Flangeless Driver 2R Steam Locos with Traction Tires I think, it is what it is, for me and possibly others.
@johnshorse posted:Takes up too much space. It is a challenge with 3 rail ...finding space...much less Scale O 2 rail.
So... what scale are you using then?
Mark in Oregon
@MainLine Steam posted:1. ...On a more general side, one thing to keep in mind is the History of 2R vs 3R.
2. ...There was a pretty clear and distinct division between the two, and this was what model railroading at that time.
3. ... The take away here is it amazing that 2R still survives at all.
4. Altas made an attempt to democratize 2R in the early 70's through an agreement with Roco. The success of which is questionable. I could argue without it 2R would be gone.
5. ...Anyhow the 1980's and up is general knowledge to anyone on this forum.
6. ...But to me the fact it is "dying" is just part of the evolution of technology.
7. ...Per my prior posts I chose 3R as it is a better fit for me.
1. "2R vs 3R." Why the "vs" bit?
2. "...at that time." Sounds like there still is...
3. ??? 🤔 Really? Explain...
4. ??? 🤔 Well...given the fact that the Atlas (and Rivarossi) plastic O scale stuff was generally dismissed at the time, I don't see how that's true.
5. ??? 🤔 Dunno what that means...
6. "...dying..."? Really? That's a mighty big assumption.
7. "...is a better fit for me." Key here is "for you". Simply because 3R "is a better fit " for YOU doesn't necessarily mean that 2R is, as you put it, "dying". I would argue that 2R is in better shape now than, say, in the 1960s/70s...
Mark in Oregon
I have no idea how I, as an individual, can change hordes of peoples' taste. They like what they like.
I am a 2 rail O Scale enthusiast for a simple reason. I want model trains that are as close to the real ones as possible, because I love re-living my childhood experiences with steam locomotives, early diesels and all the attendant cars and buildings. It was a wonderful, all-captivating time.
I used to go to downtown Chicago and the All-Nation Hobby Shop as a youth, starting in 1960. All-nation was displaying Max Gray O Scale brass, such as a Nickel Plate 2-8-4, a PRR J1 2-10-4 and a UP Big Boy. I vowed, in 1960, that I would own O Scale locomotives as soon as I was financially able. And I have, happily.
My two cents... just try to support the importers as much as you can. We have less than an handful left both in 2 and 3 rail. Without them there won’t be much to make a fuzz about.
@mark s posted:I used to go to downtown Chicago and the All-Nation Hobby Shop as a youth, starting in 1960. All-nation was displaying Max Gray O Scale brass, such as a Nickel Plate 2-8-4, a PRR J1 2-10-4 and a UP Big Boy. I vowed, in 1960, that I would own O Scale locomotives as soon as I was financially able. And I have, happily.
Cool. How about some pictures? 🐰😁
Mark in Oregon
Space at home is one reason, this is something I am struggling with and why I turned to traction where I can run tighter radius curves. And lack of any clubs in the area. The once active Unaffiliated O scaler modular layout in the Indy area has been dorment for many years, but I am told the layout is still around in storage. I have reached out thru a member of that group that I know and see at events, to the layout owner to purchase or take over the layout and get it back to shows again. Getting the scale front and center at shows that more general public and modelers in other scales is very important to getting "new blood" into 2 rail modeling. Now is a better time than ever as many estates of older 2 rail equipment are coming up for sale. Using vintage engines, such as All Nation and the same for rolling stock, one can get started in O scale 2 rail cheaper than buying brand new HO stuff. Yes it takes up more space, but many small switching layouts have been built. A decent local club or modular layout would give modelers with lack of space a place to run their models. There really is no one magic answer, its a multi faceted answer that is quite complex and varies from location to location. Getting the old modular layout going again with some fresh and new folks would be a good first step in my area. But one that despite some effort before Covid, has remained stalled in the station.
