Why Kadee Couplers?

Some reasons I know of are more realistic look (scale size), possibly closer car spacing and they are better for switching operations. You are also correct, they are not for everyone and not everyone would buy a car with Kadee's installed.

1. because they look better

 

2. because they work better

 

3. because I WANT to

 

That's it.... not a long drawn out thought process. You either do or you don't.

1) They work better! There is no need to bash them together in order to make a coupling, as with those big "lobster claws". I can couple into a single sitting boxcar (weighted to NMRA standards) without having it move and still have a successful joint.

 

2) They look a whole lot better, especially when body mounted for much closer coupling of cars. The newest Kadee 740 series couplers are even more prototypical in appearance.

 

3) They STAY COUPLED! Even on very long trains, they STAY COUPLED!

best operating coupler there is! period.

I converted all my HO to it.

I converted all my O scale to it.

Now I'm converting all my G scale to it.

Run out the slack on a hundred car train. Most others will fail or dip out. You'll be sold!

Because you don't need to run at 70 mph to couple them!!

AG.

They work .

I remember back about 1955 when Kadee couplers came out.  About the same time the NMRA came out with their stupid design.  I couldn't believe what the NMRA did.  The Kadees were so slick and looked protypical.  Oh, well.

 

I don't think body mounted Kadees work well on O-31 track. They must have fairly wide radius track.  Correct?  If I were not a toy train operator, I would consider installing them.  The Lionel couplers are OK, but they are not even close to scale.  But then, almost nothing is to scale due to space limitations.  And 3 rail isn't exactly scale.  But 3 rail track and sharp curves and limitations on the amount of track I can fit in a small space doesn't keep me from having a lot of fun with my trains.  And fun is the primary objective.  

They have problems, too. Have participated in operating sessions on layouts (HO) that 

used them. Fiddling was required regularly. These were not amateur layouts, either.

They are a good product, but not perfect - what is?

 

Frame-mount couplers do not lend themselves to sharper curves. Too bad - getting the coupler off the truck solves more problems than it causes. (Does both.)

 

Lionel's coupler design works well - and is more prototypical than the Kadees, if you want to pick nits, which I don't. The execution of this design over time by various companies is all over the map, as we know. Some are flawless; some are...the others. 

 

The "70 mph coupling" is neither required nor un-fixable. I have posted more than once the simple fix for most of the "70 mph" units, so I won't do it again. A little analytical thought can come in handy.

I run them because they look better, allow for closer spacing between cars and/or locos, and they are more reliable than lobster claws, which tend to release at random times.

 

I guarantee you people will still want to buy stuff from you that has been converted to kadees.  

I have a small layout with Atlas O-36 curves. On the kits that I build, I use Kadee's. 36' is the longest car I run, though. I use them because I model the late 1800's, early 1900's, which mainly used archbar trucks, which aren't very common in 3-rail. By time you figure the cost plus shipping from Lionel, you're looking at over $20.00 a car for plastic trucks. MTH's parts dept. is completely unworkable, at least for me, so my options are few.

 

So far the Kadee's work great, look good, and are fairly affordable. For kits, they're also easier to use. Don't have to cut out details to get 3-rail trucks to fit.

 

My situation is different than most, so I do what I do.

Ditto

 

Also I can run fifty car trains without having to worry about a lobster claw letting go which they do all the time.

I've never heard of anyone putting a rubber band around their Kadees to keep them closed

 

I've never heard of anyone gluing their Kadees shut to keep them closed

 

I've never heard of anyone slamming their cars together to couple the Kadees together

 

I've never heard of anyone keeping a train permanently coupled because they dislike having to uncouple the cars

 

Resale value...why do you want to sell your trains?!?!?!  When your dead and gone, does it really matter?

Same as others have said,  they look better,  function better and they close the gaps.   It's really an improvement over the lobster claws in appearance.

I think if Kadee, or any one else, would make a SCALE electric  coupler that can be retrofitted replacing the existing claw O couplers, they may make some good money.

 

I think MTH has HO electrical couplers, not sure why they don't make them O scale too...

Like Doug "Laidoffsick" said:

 

• They look better. Closer to scale size than the hi-rail coupler. The 700-series look more prototypical than any hi-rail coupler produced.
• They work better. The only uncouple when you want them to. You don't have to slam into them to get them to couple.
• Because you're pulling on the car frame as opposed to the trucks, operation is more natural. You also get the "slack action" on longer trains.

There are some caveats:

• Body-mounted couplers require wider curves. You really shouldn't use them unless you have 36" radius (O-72) curves or larger.
• You'll likely have to adjust the mounting height to get them to the right height on some cars. This is especially true if you're converting hi-rail cars as some of them ride high to compensate for the flanges.
• Unless you convert every single locomotive and piece of rolling stock to Kadees, you'll need a couple of "Transition Cars".

Thought someone should post some photos so here's a Lionel GP9 in Wabash paint with the original coupler sitting behind an Atlas GP9 with Kadee coupler:

 

 

 

Here's the Atlas GP9:

 

 

 

And here's the Lionel GP9 before I repainted it and installed Kadees:

 

 

 

And after:

 

 

 

 GP9 1912 was the only Seaboard GP9 to get their light green paint scheme.  Warren Calloway provided me with a black and white photo of it in this scheme along with a black and white photo of it in the dark green scheme and you can see the difference in the shades, even in black and white.  If there's a color photo of it in the light green scheme it hasn't been published yet.

So basically, if you are running O-27, Traditional, or Hi Rail trains (as the name of this forum might suggest), Kadee couplers don't really have much to offer given the amount of work and cost involved to convert? LOL.

 

 

Would I/Do I personally convert to Kadee for 027/Post War trains, and 031 curves? NO

 

99% of my stuff is scale running on 072 or bigger. 3RS it's still Hi-Rail, and I do convert it all except the passenger cars. Passenger cars get a Kadee on the head end and rear end only for looks. OK so now the rear cars are getting ProtoCraft couplers as they are strictly for looks back there.

 

 

I think what laidoffsick mentioned is worth expanding upon.  Kadees generally don't appeal to people looking for the "toy train look".  If you collect postwar Lionel or Marx, you are probably not interested in kadees - they don't make sense.

 

If you like realistic trains and don't concern yourself with "collector value" (as if anything is collectible anymore), kadees may be a way to go, even if you operate railking or other semi-scale offerings from the past 20 years.

I like to think of it as "model railroading" compared to running toy trains. Yes they are all toys in the grand scheme of things, and they all use a center rail for power, but there's a big difference between an operating toy train layout, and a more scale sized hi-rail layout. Do you have the 20' tall brakeman standing next to the track or is he 6' tall?

In tests, Kadees have proven to be the strongest and most reliable couplers available.  Additionally, they offer delayed uncoupling (http://www.kadee.com/html/delay.pdf) which can be a benefit for switching operations.

 

The proof is in the pudding:  Kadees were so good that, when their patents expired, they were the couplers that other manufacturers copied.

But, some one else might,

I've posted this thought before.  I would like to see the lobster claw go the way of the 0-27 tin plated track, at least on MTH, Lionel, and AtlasO scale offerings.

The "horn hook" coupler was never an NMRA standard. There was an NMRA committee, which was completely outside the Standard Committees, that looked at a number of experimental (X) coupler designs, one of which was the X2F. When it was put to a vote, around 1955, the NMRA membership rejected the X2F (and several others) as an NMRA 'Standard' coupler. What was accepted was a standard coupler pocket, so a standard shank could be developed for the many couplers being used at the time could be interchanged between manufacturers cars.

 

The problem with Kadee's at the time was they wanted a licensing fee from manufacturers that would have priced most cars out of people's reach. Instead the manufacturers jumped on the X2F as their de facto standard coupler. Not because it was an NMRA standard, but because it was easy and cheap to make. The main differences being the size of the mounting hole, large for body mounts, small for truck mounts.

 

Lionel 027 track is NOT 42" diameter

Tim you can't be concerned about selling them after you have used them anyway. You buy them for yourself, so the question of "what can I sell them for later" should never be a factor. You want to invest.... buy gold.

Not exactly. K-line did O-42, O-54, and O-72 in O-27 rail profile & ties. We used it for DCS demonstrations with TCA Western.

As I stated above, I don't have a problem on Atlas O-36 curves. Haven't tried anything longer than 36' yet, though.

Oh, he meant 027 "style" track.  My bad!

Good educational subject matter. Everyone kept hinting around the main reason. It's because they look cool...

 

One good thing. They don't make Kadee's for Standard Gauge.

Look about 1/2 way down this page and see what Herb Kephart did to run on tight (12-1/2" radius) track:

 

http://www.freerails.com/view_...rum_id=64&page=3

 

You want to do it, or you don't.

No sense making it a battle or trying to poselytize for or agin 'em.

 

I have not foresaken the electro couplers on my locos . . . at least not yet. Everything else is done including my 21" and 18" passenger cars except for one transition car. Didn't even have enough sense to keep a transition freight car!

 

I have discovered that grades can be a problem with KDs. I am "easing" my grades to be "KD-friendly."

Ok, here's what happens when you don't switch your whole fleet!

Yup...been there done that!

Hey the rivet counters will have something to cry about.

For those of you who are interested, here is a link to a post about fixing the post war magnetic couplers so they don't come open by themselves.

 

http://www.modeltrainforum.com...p?t=29954&page=2

 "I have o-27 track (lionel brown-tie, right) that is 42" diameter.  Most stuff with kadees willl work with that"

 

   Yeah, I had an industrial switching layout with those O-42 curves and ran body mounted couplers with no problem. Longest cars I tried were 50 footers so passenger cars or modern freight cars might not work but they'd look pretty bad on O-42 anyway. The O scale Kadees have a pretty wide gathering range compared to real couplers which can run on 90 foot radius on 40 foot cars(90 foot in O scale is 22.5 inches or in the O-42 ball park) ..DaveB

D500 can you point me in the right direction for this information?  I did a search on your name and coupler and it still doesn't jump out at me. 

 

-rog

 

I don't understand the video. What does it have to do with Kadee couplers? Also, what does it have to do with "rivet counters"?

I guess I should have stated to watch the whole video. At the end, the stock coupler snaps. There was no good reason for this? The layout is level and the train was at speed. The coupler just decided it was time I guess.

 I need to finish converting all my cars. I have no idea why he stated about rivet counters. I guess, some guys think that two rail and swapping couplers is reserved for rivet counters??

 I'll have to post a new video of the lobster claws failing the same way. It happened to me several times.

Also, what does it have to do with "rivet counters"?

 

Exactly.

 

It's all about looks and reliable operation   The only "fiddling" is in the fact that the makers don't automatically provide them on the engines/rolling stock vice the old style couplers.

I'm with Hot Water, any and all points/and or jokes went right over my head.

I'm running 2 Rail but it's the same idea... I have run Atlas F units through 27"r curves with 48 and 50 foot cars backwards and forwards with no problems. I haven't found a 4 axle diesel so far that won't work on 27"r with a 50 foot car in switching duty yet with Kadees.

 

Notable Kadee features:

 

-The look

-They couple so easily they won't push the car/cars you are coupling to

-Delayed uncoupling for hands free switching

-The older 800 series couplers will mate up to 3 rail lobster claws if you like

-The new 700 series have eliminated the external spring that liked to pop off

-They are basically a standard

-They are dead reliable

Just my opinion but, no mater WHAT one does to modify/correct the big lobster claw type couplers, I defy you to couple into any standing single freight car, without moving it, and have the claw close & latch. 

Someone help me out here, where do you buy these "Kadee couplers". We don't have a shop her in my area that has ever seen them.  I am tired of unscheduled un-couplings.

Try their website, and you can also by from larger forum sponsor shops.

You can buy direct from Kadee but I usually find mine on EBay a little cheaper. Kadee also sells in bulk if you have a fleet to do

I understood the video because I've had it happen. Running a big heavy train those 3R couplers just don't hold up.

Did any of you guys that are complaining about "lobster claw" couplers coming uncoupled by themselves read my post about fixing this problem?  The fix is simple and quick, less than 5 seconds per coupler.  Once the couplers are modified, they do not come open by themselves.  

That is not the only reason we swap to Kadees. Most people don't run long heavy trains where that occurs. Looks is the biggest reason I would say, and having to slam the cars together to get the knuckles to close. No one could ever convince me to keep the claws.... not gonna happen

Didn't a manufacturer state that he thought the lobster claws were outdated? I believe he went on to say that they would fade away.

 I really believe that someday very soon, new guys coming into the hobby will ask why three rail is still around. I'm not that big against the third rail, it's the coupler size alone that is too big for G scale! The wheel's flange size is ridiculous. The gap and the floating pilot (stairs) on modern diesels just looks wrong.

 I'm sure I make enemies every time with these replies. I have three rail stuff of my own. I just keep it in the closet.....  (Santa sees it sometimes )

If you put "opinion" at the end of that, you get hammered less.

 

Opinion.

 

Some folks like big couplers - when I was a kid, I was enamored of them, having only those funny things with the barb sticking out.  Then in the early 1950s I lusted after that short Lionel vista dome with the flat groove below the windows.  I could watch those department store layouts for hours.  It all looked great.

 

Now I cannot even handle the fact that our track gauge is slightly too wide.  At least I know how to do something about it.  The hobby has something for everyone - if I could afford it and had the time, all of my models would have Protocraft couplers.  In the meantime, Kadees go where I uncouple a lot, and dummies go everywhere else.

How do you uncouple using Kadees? Do the magnets made for 3 rail work very well??.  I loved  the feather touch coupling but what uncoupling?  Does the train uncouple if stopped over a magnet?  The electric uncoupler magnets  are just tooo much work.

Didn't a manufacturer state that he thought the lobster claws were outdated? I believe he went on to say that they would fade away.

 

No that was Hot water!!

 

I made this video 4 years ago to demonstrate how the uncoupling works, and "HANDS FREE" switching with Kadee couplers in 3 rail. Yes the magnets are visible, but with structures, weathering, and lots of detail on the layout..... no one is going to be paying attention to the magnets.

 

Try to do this with "The Claw"

 

 

Can the Kadee couplers be mounted on MTH Rail King passenger cars?

Kadee couplers can be mounted on anything you like. Just remember to purchase the Kadee coupler height gauge so that each and every coupler you mount are ALL the same height.

The concept of standards may prove to be both novel and elusive........

If I need to lower a coupler what do I do?

You need to use spacers. Make them out of styrene, Micro Mark sells laser cut spacers, and CentralFan1976 sells 3D printed spacers for various applications.

 

If you click on my YouTube Channel linked below, in my signature, I did a series on the O Scale Kadee Coupler. It covers just about everything you want to know

Better yet, here's the link to the thread about Kadees with the 4 videos I made for anyone wanting to venture into Kadee Land

 

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...-scale-kadee-coupler

Got it thanks so much.

Hey laidoffsick. thanks for posting . great stuff that takes time to create and post. appreciate it.

Well that's the great thing about them!

They have metal rods hanging down that you can arc weld together!!

I learned about KD's so long ago that it seems weird that others haven't. I mean like a couple of decades?

 I guess it's because I came from HO scale originally. Everyone in HO knew about them. That's why sometimes I think 3 rail is in isolation. OPINION!!!

You either lower the coupler box with spacers or you lower the car.  Lowering the car may prove complicated as you may impact clearance with the flanges

Hmm looks like i may want to invest in Kadee couplers for my cars. I wonder if they will work with the Atlas cars? I plan to eventually have a layout with long freight train runs as ive experienced the claw uncouplings in the past. Even with flat level surface ive had them just uncouple for no reason. And seeing as i work as a chemical tank driver in the industry i see how the real couplers work and how the guys uncouple the cars.

Since i dont have a layout right now i can work on making the time to do the conversion on my fleet of MTH, Lionel and Atlas freight cars.

Seeing the photos of the Kaydee equipped o gauge items was impressive. They make typically toy like models look that much more realistic without that battering ram of an OEM coupler sticking out there. Nice. Not for me for what I run in Ogauge toy trains, but on all of your models they really improve the look similar to HO realisum.

Who says you have to convert your whole fleet to Kadees?  I would recommend having a few "transition" cars with kadees on one end, and the traditional, oversized coupler on the other end.  Then you can take your time converting your fleet over or only do only the rolling stock you want to.  This also lets you leave the operating couplers on engines / tenders if you want to keep them or cars you are worried about maintaining the originality of.

 

It is very time consuming to convert over, but as many will tell you that its worth the effort for looks and reliability, and time consuming is part of the hobby in itself.  It is usually a one way conversion as often the old coupler part of the truck gets destroyed in the process that can only be restored by a complete truck replacement.

 

Will I convert my entire fleet over?  No way.  May be a few choice cars and along with some transitional cars.  Its not for everyone, but it does look better and I get why many scale guys and hi-railers go for it.

Don't even need transition cars if you still use the 800 series couplers. The will grab a 3R coupler and hang on just fine.

 

I ran my Golden Gate Depot El Capitan the 1st few times with a 3R coupler on the cars and a Kadee 740 on my F units. Works just fine with no transition car. The only thing that cause an issue is a grade. When coming down the hill, the slack runs in, and will cause separation between the 2 different types of couplers. Flat land....no problem.

They will work will ALL cars. Forum member CentralFan1976 sells a 3D printed spacer specifically for Atlas cars. Takes all the guess work out.

 

Watch my Kadee videos on YouTue... all your questions will be answered, and I show you how to convert them 

 

 

 

Thanks! I will look over them now.

 

At this stage of the game I have the time to do the conversions and...they make great stress relievers after a long hard day. 

Gee Hotwater, tell us what you really think.  

I guess it's Hotwater's way or the highway.   I stand by by my opinion because it works for me and that's how I enjoy the hobby.

Your way is your way and I can respect that.  I'm not sure the reverse is true.

kadees are new to me I picked up 13 weaver 50 ft boxcars all with 2 rail wheels and kadees I can switch out the wheels to 3 rail wheels.  but then still have the kadee's now my question is to loose the kadees I would have to buy all new trucks for all 13 cars. could get expensive or swap out the wheel sets cheaper. but I have 031 curves is there a way to make the kadees work on 031 I tested a little and it seems the body's of the cars touch

Hello Jhainer

 

What trucks came on the cars you purchased?  I can supply you with new wheels,axles,couplers or trucks. I bulk purchased a bunch of stuff at Weaver sale, more than I can use! 2rail-3rail and metal and Delrin wheels.

 

Clem 

Atlas cars are easy, they already have the holes in place to body mount Kadees.

Not sure here is the one I switched out wheels too from an 027 car I had laying around .

 

Well, not really. The holes provided in the Atlas cars are for mounting their own design coupler and gear box. Thus, using those same holes for mounting a Kadee, it then sticks out noticeably past the end-sill of the car. 

Jhainer…I sent you an email

Great thread...I've learned a lot from it and am now giving some serious thought to purchasing a few pair of the newer 740-series Kadee's just to give them a try.

 

Would some of the "3-rail scale" Kadee users here share their thoughts/preferences on metal (#740) versus plastic (#745) draft gear boxes for body mounting the couplers on cars with 3-rail trucks/wheelsets?  The price is the same on the Kadee website.

 

I tend to believe "metal is better", but is that the case here?  Why would someone prefer plastic?  Are there operational differences between the two?  What about longevity?

"I tend to believe "metal is better", but is that the case here?  Why would someone prefer plastic?  Are there operational differences between the two?  What about longevity?"

 

    The only place I'd use plastic kadees is on metal framed cars where there might be a shorting problem if the wheels sets are mis-aligned. The metal Kadees have a much better feel and are probably stronger (though I've never broken a plastic one) It's possible to mix metal couplers with plastic draft gear and plastic couplers in metal draft gear btw to double the insulated pairs)......DaveB

Joey,

Between plastic or metal there is not quality difference.

Plastic are commonly used to isolated brass cars, because in some cases the cars are polarized, except if you use plastic trucks or double isolated wheels. Back to the topic I start changing kadee couples and finishing changing rails too, so be careful the 2 rail bug sometimes bite hard.

Andre. 

 

I don't ever use plastic draft gear boxes. Tried them, didn't like them for a couple reasons HW mentioned above. Also in a big heavy train the plastic can flex, throwing the coupler height off causing issues. Metal is better!

I must have missed it. Can you provide a link to your post?

How about a link to your post too?

Anything above 4 mph is a "rough joint"

Dave, AG, Hot & LOS...thanks very much for your prompt replies to my "metal vs. plastic" questions!!