I have been reading about the Lion Chief 2.0 and correct me if I am wrong; is it basically TMCC that adds Blue Tooth as an option? I think calling 3 options as Lion Chief is going to confuse the marketplace even more. People seem to confuse ProtoSound and ProtoSound 2 with MTH. This Lion Chief thing is worse. Lionel has Legacy, Lion Chief, Lion Chief Plus and now Lion Chief 2.0. This is going to confuse the market even more. What do you think?
Scott Smith
Replies sorted oldest to newest
Hi Scott:
No chaos in my train room. Lionel has these logos on all their packaging, for chaos prevention.
Gary
I think they ought to ditch "LionChief". Either make all the starter sets LC+ or call it something else. That would go a long way to avoiding confusion for beginners. Also, I'll add the now, mandatory-to-the-thread, Lionel bash: whatever they call it, just make sure it works! 
It's very confusing. I spend a lot of time at open houses trying to explain options to folks. Dumb decision by Lionel management. The brand recognition of "Lionel" is really exploited here. Take away the "Lionel" name and the general public probably would look elsewhere.
-Greg
It's Lionels Neverending pursuit of no standardization.
Its not enough that every Loco takes a different smoke unit. Some locos have back drivable gears, some do not etc.
There must be a plethora of control systems.
It's no wonder there are quality issues. Every new item is a "one off".
I remember when semi scale locos had Tmcc just like the scale stuff. It works for MTH.
Why not?
For example, a good, honest hobby store employee will and should know all of the variations a potential customer may encounter when considering a toy train purchase. For me, it is all part of the sale, share your knowledge with a novice, make it fun for both parties. Modern innovations and name changes are the way this 21st century society operates.
Whether at a hobby shop or train show, it is up to us to spread the word, you may now "beam me up Scotty." 
I'm your average hobbyist and I get confused by all the options. My Dad has his prewar and laughs at all this.
Grampstrains posted:This is funny. For months, a lot of folks have complained the LC+ and Legacy can't operate off the same control. Now they can and still, some are unhappy.
What is actually funny is that you just proved my point. LC+ and Legacy cannot operate with the same remote. Lion Chief 2.0 can operate with a TMCC or Legacy remote. Lion Chief plus will not operate with a TMCC or Legacy remote. See it is confusing.
Scott Smith
To me this is what it should of been from the start. I agree Lionchief should go bye bye. Lionchief+ is okay, at least it can be run conventionally, And this is what should be in starter sets. Put Lionchief 2.0 in midway sets, and then some lower end Legacy in your premium sets. ( lower end I mean with out all the fine detail ) So just your beginner sets, would have a different control system. Or even do away with Lionchief+ and go to the Lionchief 2.0 for your beginner to mid range sets, and Legacy Lower end for your premium sets.
Sidebar: If you go out to purchase a truck or car, you will have a lot of choices. The Ford 150 is just one example. The sales consultant will have to help you out, just like they do at local hobby shops or the big online shops.
Gary
Scott another thought is maybe Lionel is going to phase out Lionchief/+ and go to the Lionchief 2.0. ( which to me is what they should of gone to from the start), they should never of just dropped the control system they had ( except in your more expensive engines ) I like the idea of being able to have TMCC/LegacyL/Legacy all able to run the command engines, of coarse Legacy system can do more than the other two, but you still can run a legacy engine with a TMCC cab1 remote. Yes you won't get all the features, as you would with a legacy remote, but you can run them.
trainroomgary posted:Sidebar: If you go out to purchase a truck or car, you will have a lot of choices. The Ford 150 is just one example. The sales consultant will have to help you out, just like they do at local hobby shops or the big online shops.
Gary
So I really like the Western Union 4-4-0 set I would like to buy that with the Legacy system. The Disney set with the Mickey ears I would like Legacy there as well. Lionel is not offering models with options like Ford. XYZ set comes with this command system and that’s the way it is. I don’t have an issue with that. I just saying the marketing is confusing.
Did I read the lc2.o info correctly, it comes with no lc remote? I thought lc+ was fine having transformer control or the lc or universal remote to control them. I thought most tmcc/ legacy users just wanted to be able to use their remotes also to control them. I now only use the mth remote to controll all my mth and legacy engines. I do not want to have dozens of remotes to confuse my operators that come over. I agree with scott lionel realy has confused thier product line. try buying a used lc+ engine in few years. trying to know whats under the hood so to speak is going to be real confusing when some sellers dont know what they have. mth is by far way ahead of lionel in this area since going to the ps2 platform. with everything being dcs from the starter set to the preimer engines. you know what your getting and its is relatively bullet proof. lionel has no standardization from engine to engine let alone from one line to the next. what is ryan thinking. drop the starter regular lc crap with no cruies control and make all engines lc+2.0 and make them able to be run with the remote that comes with the engine or the lc+ universal remote or the phone app via bluetooth and also both tmcc remote or legacy remote and be done with it. then in the starter line and semiscale line operators can run everything and not be stuck no matter how they choose to run them. also with the added tmcc/legacy option they wont have to worry about anything when upgrading thier command system. then lastly if they get really serious and want the high end stuff with all the bells and whistles give them scale engines with full legacy.
ps. after trying to explain my position on this I am almost confused. 😁
Even more confusing in that the original LionChief and LionChief Plus were not Bluetooth.
Eventually we'll all be able to run everything new with BlueTooth through our phones... no rem,otes of any kind needed.
One ring to rule them.
Everything we've been asking for.
Jon 
It's called evolution. The system started out as a way to provide command control inexpensively and control costs in starter sets, and proved so popular that LC+ was created. The ability to control these locos with Bluetooth and with TMCC/Legacy is a feature, not a bug . It provides lots of options at low cost. This system is more reliable than Legacy and TMCC in certain ways, a lot less expensive and uses parts that are not going obsolete because they are 10-20 years old. It allows the sale of starter sets for half the cost of the competition. It's not that complicated. None of us like change, but it happens anyway. This is progress, as will become apparent over the coming years.
LC 2.0 = ((LC+)+some lights + Bluetooth – Remote) X $2
My take: LC+ provided for a relatively low cost entry into the world of remote control and therefore a possible incentive to eventually upgrade to their higher end system. The added features have now doubled the cost.
Landsteiner posted:This system is more reliable than Legacy and TMCC in certain ways, a lot less expensive and uses parts that are not going obsolete because they are 10-20 years old.
First, I'm NO expert, but those seem like some big assumptions to me.
It’s disappointing that Lionel took the whistle steam effect from the Lionmaster Big Boy. I was greatful to get the 2010 model and still runs great. This to me seems like it might not succeed but I could be wrong.
Jeff T posted:Landsteiner posted:This system is more reliable than Legacy and TMCC in certain ways, a lot less expensive and uses parts that are not going obsolete because they are 10-20 years old.
First, I'm NO expert, but those seem like some big assumptions to me.
You dont have to clean the track all the time. Its only there to pass electricity with LC control or blue tooth!
My question is. Do the LC 2.0 engines run on DC? If not they arent LC at all. Should be called legacy light.
Jim
carsntrains :You dont have to clean the track all the time. Its only there to pass electricity with LC control or blue tooth!
Jim
You don't have to clean the track all the time with tmcc/legacy either.
The 2 part signal is radiated out of the outside rail and from the ground wiring of the room your layout is in.
Dirty track cause issues with power loss to cc locos. It will do the same to Lionchief.
xrayvizhen posted:LC 2.0 = ((LC+)+some lights + Bluetooth – Remote) X $2
My take: LC+ provided for a relatively low cost entry into the world of remote control and therefore a possible incentive to eventually upgrade to their higher end system. The added features have now doubled the cost.
They don’t want low cost, they want to price themselves out of business.
That’s how it seems, anyway.
Landsteiner posted:It provides lots of options at low cost. This system is more reliable than Legacy and TMCC in certain ways, a lot less expensive and uses parts that are not going obsolete because they are 10-20 years old. It allows the sale of starter sets for half the cost of the competition.
Is that why the L/C+ 2.0 traditional NKP-style Berkshires are 50 bucks more than their L/C+ counterparts?
Rusty
Rusty Traque posted:Landsteiner posted:It provides lots of options at low cost. This system is more reliable than Legacy and TMCC in certain ways, a lot less expensive and uses parts that are not going obsolete because they are 10-20 years old. It allows the sale of starter sets for half the cost of the competition.
Is that why the L/C+ 2.0 traditional NKP-style Berkshires are 50 bucks more than their L/C+ counterparts?
Rusty
More options on the LC 2.0
Jim
Since everyone else seems to be on the soapbox, I'm throwing my lot in as well.
Lionel is trying to convert to DC operation and still retain AC compatibility.
Next the only reason I can see them not offering remotes, is the fact that the LC App is free. Its okaaaaay.... but its FREE. The android version seems to be very prone to lockup and the apple version drops the engine at 20 feet.
Still no reverse and coupler lockouts. These are quintessential to having an operating layout for public interaction like we have with kids run trains.
But lets not forget about the delightfully overpriced LCS! Module prices are crashing. I can pick up one for 140$ new on Amazon. I truly would have been insulted and infuriated if I had pre-ordered it. Even the app is limited to Apple iPads, and is quite buggy still. Pieces dont even match up to make a proper oval.
If Lionel wants me to continue to purchase high-end sets, they need a converter that permits TMCC/CAB2 to BT and visa versa. Something... ANYTHING! I'm not dumping a $1800 control system in the trash because I can do it with my phone.
Finally:
COST! I have had more parents look at a set, look back at me and go "you're insane! That's as much as an XBox/Playstation/Switch!". This typically will get used about two times and then make its way to a thrift store or trash can. I can say without a doubt those game systems wont last but three years before you have to get another.
But lets face it. Kids these days have a short attention span and very little floor space to do anything (Or even time for that matter). They're being shoved this way and that. Soccer, football, afterschool programs, scouts, etc., etc.. They're being thrust into adult situations and decisions at the age of 14. Its not wonder drug use is increasing as a means of an escape.
Going to get off the box before I say something else intangible.
Stone Rhino posted:Since everyone else seems to be on the soapbox, I'm throwing my lot in as well.
Lionel is trying to convert to DC operation and still retain AC compatibility.
Next the only reason I can see them not offering remotes, is the fact that the LC App is free. Its okaaaaay.... but its FREE. The android version seems to be very prone to lockup and the apple version drops the engine at 20 feet.
Still no reverse and coupler lockouts. These are quintessential to having an operating layout for public interaction like we have with kids run trains.
But lets not forget about the delightfully overpriced LCS! Module prices are crashing. I can pick up one for 140$ new on Amazon. I truly would have been insulted and infuriated if I had pre-ordered it. Even the app is limited to Apple iPads, and is quite buggy still. Pieces dont even match up to make a proper oval.
If Lionel wants me to continue to purchase high-end sets, they need a converter that permits TMCC/CAB2 to BT and visa versa. Something... ANYTHING! I'm not dumping a $1800 control system in the trash because I can do it with my phone.
Finally:
COST! I have had more parents look at a set, look back at me and go "you're insane! That's as much as an XBox/Playstation/Switch!". This typically will get used about two times and then make its way to a thrift store or trash can. I can say without a doubt those game systems wont last but three years before you have to get another.But lets face it. Kids these days have a short attention span and very little floor space to do anything (Or even time for that matter). They're being shoved this way and that. Soccer, football, afterschool programs, scouts, etc., etc.. They're being thrust into adult situations and decisions at the age of 14. Its not wonder drug use is increasing as a means of an escape.
Going to get off the box before I say something else intangible.
I'm a bit new to this stuff. But what is a reverse and coupler lockout?
Jim
scott.smith posted:I have been reading about the Lion Chief 2.0 and correct me if I am wrong; is it basically TMCC that adds Blue Tooth as an option? I think calling 3 options as Lion Chief is going to confuse the marketplace even more. People seem to confuse ProtoSound and ProtoSound 2 with MTH. This Lion Chief thing is worse. Lionel has Legacy, Lion Chief, Lion Chief Plus and now Lion Chief 2.0. This is going to confuse the market even more. What do you think?
Scott Smith
LionChief in the beginning was a bridge between the tmcc/legacy world and the conventional world. Plus a way to get controllers in younger operator hands. Which I think it did very well. But that’s besides the point. Lionel has made it public knowledge that the legacy hardware is in the later phase of its life due to components no longer being available to produce it. It was also publicly noted that the tmcc components are still readily available and is a stable techonogly for the time being and the near forseable future. So obviously they can’t abandon legacy features we all love and enjoy. Does it make since to totally reinvent the tmcc handheld to control the extra features that would be left out? I honestly wouldn’t think so. Why would we waste capital on another hardware redevelopment. When we can let the tech companies bare that burden for us and put the money to good use elsewhere. We already have a successful app that in it’s infancy most likely over delivers more features than most operators use. It’s an excellent platform to build on and that’s exactly what there doing. LionChief 2.0 might not be a full replacement for legacy but 3.0 or 4.0 might be just that. I personally loathe that idea I really love the legacy controller. Unfortunately it’s the world we live and in and as a dedicated hobbiest and consumer of both Lionel and mth both I understand their need to move in this direction. It might be confusing right now but the future is much clear before long the app itself will be most likely be standard for all products and the feature set only limited by what you feel like spending on traditional or full on scale models. Even that gap looks to closing with traditional sizes model getting more and more features. It certainly could seem confusing for sure. But I think they are headed in a healthy less confusing direction. I’m not sure how well accepted it will be but I guess time will tell. This hobby hates change but it’s gotta happen. I hope more stay on the ride than get off altogether.
My point is/was, and I guess I didn't make it explicit enough, it's 3 different markets. You've got the Legacy/TMCC buyers: Big highly detailed scale engines, wide radius curves and big $$$. You have the entry level: "Toy" trains, conventional transformer control and entry level pricing. Then you have the middle of the road buyer, still operating his PW engines conventionally but has two or maybe even three "semi-scale" LC+ engines at less than $250 each and happy with the remotes. That guy is not going to pay $500+ for an engine, period. (Or at least I won't.)
Any attempt to raise the price point to accommodate LC+2.0 features that aren't needed or wanted will fail. Lionel already has a winner with LC and LC+. Why are they screwing around with a formula that's already been proven successful?
Lionel hinted at a bridge between LC/LC+ and TMCC/Legacy, apparently this is it.
The issue that Lionel is addressing is that as nice as it is, TMCC is based on 1960's technology whereas LC/LC+ and bluetooth are more current wireless technologies. This was inevitable.
BOB WALKER posted:The issue that Lionel is addressing is that as nice as it is, TMCC is based on 1960's technology whereas LC/LC+ and bluetooth are more current wireless technologies. This was inevitable.
I searched that subject last week. The roots of TMCC actually started in the late 40s! It was analog of course lol
Jim
I have to take the side of "why not?" The way I see it, LC+2 should make everyone happy. New hobbyists (or cheapskates like me) get more features for the money, and don't need to spend hundreds on a command control system. Long time hobbyists with established layouts and command control get their wish of a reasonably priced locomotive that can be controlled with their command control setups. The question is why didn't Lionel introduce LC+2 from the very beginning instead of Lionchief.
Now for complaints. First of all the name: not only confusing but also uninspired. Second, LC+2 Locomotives should include a remote. If TMCC operators don't want the clutter, leave it in the box, but whenever I have visitors I'd like to walk around with a basket and hand out remotes.
John, you'll just be handing out Universal remotes. 
Of course, then you'll have to get them all connected to the right locomotives, that should be fun!
Hiawatha98 posted:The question is why didn't Lionel introduce LC+2 from the very beginning instead of Lionchief.
DITTO.
All of the technology involved has been available cheaply for years. It's not like they had to wait for Bluetooth 4 to be released before the product could move forward. Bluetooth standards from 15 years ago can easily achieve the same goals being implemented in current LC products.
gunrunnerjohn posted:Lionel hinted at a bridge between LC/LC+ and TMCC/Legacy, apparently this is it.
I agree here, I for one haven't purchased anything LC/+ due to the engines not being able to run on the Lionel remote I use for everything else. Now the option is there for that feature to run on legacy/TMCC and I'm in!
xrayvizhen posted:My point is/was, and I guess I didn't make it explicit enough, it's 3 different markets. You've got the Legacy/TMCC buyers: Big highly detailed scale engines, wide radius curves and big $$$. You have the entry level: "Toy" trains, conventional transformer control and entry level pricing. Then you have the middle of the road buyer, still operating his PW engines conventionally but has two or maybe even three "semi-scale" LC+ engines at less than $250 each and happy with the remotes. That guy is not going to pay $500+ for an engine, period. (Or at least I won't.)
Any attempt to raise the price point to accommodate LC+2.0 features that aren't needed or wanted will fail. Lionel already has a winner with LC and LC+. Why are they screwing around with a formula that's already been proven successful?
I think it's because they are opening up a whole new segment of their own customer base to their LC+ product line. LC+ is likely a profitable product line as they have used existing tooling with just enough detail and features to satisfy a large number of operators. (I don't think LC/LC+ has had any new tooling exclusive to the LC/LC+ line)
From the comments around the forum, there were a number of TMCC/Legacy users that liked some of the LC+ offerings, but wouldn't make the purchase because they couldn't control it with their existing control system. Sometimes the TMCC/Legacy user's refusal to buy LC+ was more out of principal than practicality. I get that too. If you invested in the brand's top of the line control system, shouldn't it control any engine that you want to buy? Now there is no excuse, if you like a LC+ 2.0 locomotive (given its known features), you buy it - whether you are a TMCC, Legacy, or Conventional guy.
The TMCC/Legacy user, who is a proven buyer/brand loyalist, is the target of the LC+2.0.
With that said, as a conventional guy, the LC+ 2.0 is also very attractive to me. I think Lionel is hitting another sweet spot in the market.
Again, this boils down to the universal remote being truly "universal". A BT to TMCC signaling would be dynamite. Like how we had a cable that lets us use TMCC and Legacy base at the same time. Throw into this the PowerMaster unit? Run conventional trains without modification. Brilliant!
carsntrains posted:Stone Rhino posted:I'm a bit new to this stuff. But what is a reverse and coupler lockout?
Jim,
Lock-out's are like flipping the E-Unit/Reverser switch on a post-war. This keeps the engine in the direction you desire every time you cycle the power. On CAB1/TMCC, this is not possible when in command mode (conventional only). On CAB2/Legacy, this has been explored but not committed (Only in conventional mode does the direction lock work).
LC and LC+ kid friendly? Sure is! But having these light-weight plastic trains that travel 10MPH on a surface? In reverse? Hmmm, this is looking like an accident waiting to happen. Even at a paltry 6V DC, these units will power down the track. I had to install mechanical stops into the LC Thomas set remotes to cap their top speed and restrict reverse speeds. I've seen kids go white knuckle to try and turn them to full speed and reverse.
The LC app lets you cap speed (which is not kid-resistant), but not direction or prohibit coupler use.
Stone Rhino posted:Again, this boils down to the universal remote being truly "universal". A BT to TMCC signaling would be dynamite. Like how we had a cable that lets us use TMCC and Legacy base at the same time. Throw into this the PowerMaster unit? Run conventional trains without modification. Brilliant!
carsntrains posted:Stone Rhino posted:I'm a bit new to this stuff. But what is a reverse and coupler lockout?
Jim,
Lock-out's are like flipping the E-Unit/Reverser switch on a post-war. This keeps the engine in the direction you desire every time you cycle the power. On CAB1/TMCC, this is not possible when in command mode (conventional only). On CAB2/Legacy, this has been explored but not committed (Only in conventional mode does the direction lock work).
LC and LC+ kid friendly? Sure is! But having these light-weight plastic trains that travel 10MPH on a surface? In reverse? Hmmm, this is looking like an accident waiting to happen. Even at a paltry 6V DC, these units will power down the track. I had to install mechanical stops into the LC Thomas set remotes to cap their top speed and restrict reverse speeds. I've seen kids go white knuckle to try and turn them to full speed and reverse.
The LC app lets you cap speed (which is not kid-resistant), but not direction or prohibit coupler use.
AHHH ok. Like taking control away from the controller …
Jim
Trainlover9943 posted:gunrunnerjohn posted:Lionel hinted at a bridge between LC/LC+ and TMCC/Legacy, apparently this is it.
I agree here, I for one haven't purchased anything LC/+ due to the engines not being able to run on the Lionel remote I use for everything else. Now the option is there for that feature to run on legacy/TMCC and I'm in!
Ditto
I must have missed this. Where are you finding information on Lionchief 2 ?
romiller49 posted:I must have missed this. Where are you finding information on Lionchief 2 ?
It's in the new Lionel catalog that got leaked. It will be posted officially tomorrow morning.
It's in the new catalog we can't discuss yet.
Scott Smith
Lionchief 2.0 is basically the new and improved Lionmaster line. I think it's a good move by Lionel, and I'm glad they brought it back for folks who want full command, semi-scale, and added detail. That Big Boy looks very enticing.
scott.smith posted:It's in the new catalog we can't discuss yet.
Scott Smith
Hi Scott: This video should answer most of our question about LionChief Plus 2.0 with Bluetooth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...ature=em-uploademail
Gary
Thanks Gary
side question,
can a controller from a Lionchief set be used with any other locomotive beside the one that came in the set???
Popi posted:side question,
can a controller from a Lionchief set be used with any other locomotive beside the one that came in the set???
The controller is linked to that specific engine from the set. So if you bought the same set again the controller could control both of the engines. However, you can buy a separate Lionchief remote that can control up to 3 different engines.
Lionchief 2.0 is all an good, just removed Lionel from the mid range market, again. It looks good on paper, apart from even more confusion of what works with what, and abandons the small 9x5 foot and around there around market crowd from having the nice bump in features without having to spend $400 to $800 on controls that have a warranty. The complainers got their way, they priced out the entry level guys as a consequence of getting what they wanted for their convenience, got their details, just at the cost of the future of the hobby having new products for the beginners who are not supper flush with money. Yes, there are eight engines at $200, but it is not the verity it was even last year, nor are they current era engines. The average American would struggle to find $400 in an emergency, I don't think they will find much more to buy trains, Lionchief Plus was right around there and for the most part 0-27 compatible, making them great for small spaces and budgets if you did not want one of the limited Post-War engine road names, or don't trust Ebay. Mostly says the Legacy guys are running out of money, specifically those not buying build to order. And, no not every hobby shop can afford to learn about Lionchief, especially smaller ones, some towns only have one that does trains, like mine, and on the west coast space gets dedicated to HO over O-guage because of popularity.
Please refrain from telling me about how, everyone has money, every hobby shop is huge, everyone has high-speed internet, or smartphones/tablets.
Allin posted:The complainers got their way, they priced out the entry level guys as a consequence of getting what they wanted for their convenience, got their details, just at the cost of the future of the hobby having new products for the beginners who are not supper flush with money.
Are you saying that those who want more features in O Gauge are "complainers", are responsible for high prices, lack of availability (of what you want), and are furthering the demise of the hobby? Is that correct?
Folks,
As usual this discussion will be all over the map.
I'm still digesting the new LC 2.0 and all the implications for the existing control systems. In the end this gives hobbyists more choices at varying price points.
It's all about choices.
Allin posted:Lionchief 2.0 is all an good, just removed Lionel from the mid range market, again. It looks good on paper, apart from even more confusion of what works with what, and abandons the small 9x5 foot and around there around market crowd from having the nice bump in features without having to spend $400 to $800 on controls that have a warranty. The complainers got their way, they priced out the entry level guys as a consequence of getting what they wanted for their convenience, got their details, just at the cost of the future of the hobby having new products for the beginners who are not supper flush with money. Yes, there are eight engines at $200, but it is not the verity it was even last year, nor are they current era engines. The average American would struggle to find $400 in an emergency, I don't think they will find much more to buy trains, Lionchief Plus was right around there and for the most part 0-27 compatible, making them great for small spaces and budgets if you did not want one of the limited Post-War engine road names, or don't trust Ebay. Mostly says the Legacy guys are running out of money, specifically those not buying build to order. And, no not every hobby shop can afford to learn about Lionchief, especially smaller ones, some towns only have one that does trains, like mine, and on the west coast space gets dedicated to HO over O-guage because of popularity.
Please refrain from telling me about how, everyone has money, every hobby shop is huge, everyone has high-speed internet, or smartphones/tablets.
The last LC+ engine I bought had a list price of 429 or 449 dollars. : )
Jim
I guess the question is, will LC+ 2.0 replace all the older LC and LC+ options?
gunrunnerjohn posted:I guess the question is, will LC+ 2.0 replace all the older LC and LC+ options?
Not this year at least .. but who knows! I doubt it in the starter sets. I just hope the LC+ 2.0 will run on DC like the rest of the LC line did. Nowhere in the catalog does it say it will or will not.
Jim
Does anybody have them in stock to buy?
beachhead2 posted:Allin posted:The complainers got their way, they priced out the entry level guys as a consequence of getting what they wanted for their convenience, got their details, just at the cost of the future of the hobby having new products for the beginners who are not supper flush with money.
Are you saying that those who want more features in O Gauge are "complainers", are responsible for high prices, lack of availability (of what you want), and are furthering the demise of the hobby? Is that correct?
What I mean is everyone who complained it did not work with TMCC/Legacy to start with, it did just a different remote which is great since it added full feature compatibility with conventional layouts without a wiring change, a compromise not perfect, but a rather balanced one; complained about the lack of detail on a mid range product, it is mid range semi scale, it is supposed to be that way for the small guy. Yes, they are hurting the hobby, their behavior is toxic regardless of the hobby. Any hobby has to be multi faceted with different niches. It has been so bad for Gundam, not trains but shares the same general niche structure, a whole three series anime was made about it focusing on a positive and inclusive attitude. Killing off the mid-range in not healthy, we now have children's toys and high income adult trains, no middle, something that leaves the future in O scale rather more precarious than before.
gunrunnerjohn posted:I guess the question is, will LC+ 2.0 replace all the older LC and LC+ options?
So far it has replaced LC+, which makes sense. There were no LC+ locomotives in this catalog or '18 Vol. 2.
Allin posted:Killing off the mid-range in not healthy, we now have children's toys and high income adult trains, no middle, something that leaves the future in O scale rather more precarious than before.
I get you. But I think your beef lies with the manufacturers not consumers.
beachhead2 posted:Allin posted:Killing off the mid-range in not healthy, we now have children's toys and high income adult trains, no middle, something that leaves the future in O scale rather more precarious than before.
I get you. But I think your beef lies with the manufacturers not consumers.
True , then there is the old saying, "the squeaky wheel gets the oil", and they unfortunately they were the more vocal of the group. To behest Lionchief 2 is Just TMCC with Lionchief remote support. They should just call it TMCC and be done with it, since they have effectively canceled Lionchief Plus and simply borrowed the name to make advertising cheaper.
Allin posted:beachhead2 posted:Allin posted:Killing off the mid-range in not healthy, we now have children's toys and high income adult trains, no middle, something that leaves the future in O scale rather more precarious than before.
I get you. But I think your beef lies with the manufacturers not consumers.
True , then there is the old saying, "the squeaky wheel gets the oil", and they unfortunately they were the more vocal of the group. To behest Lionchief 2 is Just TMCC with Lionchief remote support. They should just call it TMCC and be done with it, since they have effectively canceled Lionchief Plus and simply borrowed the name to make advertising cheaper.
If its just TMCC. how does it use a Lionchief remote? : )
Jim
carsntrains posted:Allin posted:Lionchief 2.0 is all an good, just removed Lionel from the mid range market, again. It looks good on paper, apart from even more confusion of what works with what, and abandons the small 9x5 foot and around there around market crowd from having the nice bump in features without having to spend $400 to $800 on controls that have a warranty. The complainers got their way, they priced out the entry level guys as a consequence of getting what they wanted for their convenience, got their details, just at the cost of the future of the hobby having new products for the beginners who are not supper flush with money. Yes, there are eight engines at $200, but it is not the verity it was even last year, nor are they current era engines. The average American would struggle to find $400 in an emergency, I don't think they will find much more to buy trains, Lionchief Plus was right around there and for the most part 0-27 compatible, making them great for small spaces and budgets if you did not want one of the limited Post-War engine road names, or don't trust Ebay. Mostly says the Legacy guys are running out of money, specifically those not buying build to order. And, no not every hobby shop can afford to learn about Lionchief, especially smaller ones, some towns only have one that does trains, like mine, and on the west coast space gets dedicated to HO over O-guage because of popularity.
Please refrain from telling me about how, everyone has money, every hobby shop is huge, everyone has high-speed internet, or smartphones/tablets.
The last LC+ engine I bought had a list price of 429 or 449 dollars. : )
Jim
Yup, most of the range was about 350 to 480 dollars, which if one knows it will be available could be saved for. I used emergency to get a frame of reference on average fiances in a pinch, which would also come out of recreational spending, just like the trains do.
Hopefully they keep the regular LC+ around. There is a big difference between $325-400 LC+ and $500-550+++ LC+ 2.0.
Maybe they were just trying to make a big splash with the LC+ 2.0 line in this catalog, and will have more LC+ (1.0) in the fall catalog. The lion master big boy (many clammored for this one), PE berk (likey will be big seller), FTs, and tier 4s are all nice splashes for the LC+ 2.0.
carsntrains posted:Allin posted:beachhead2 posted:Allin posted:Killing off the mid-range in not healthy, we now have children's toys and high income adult trains, no middle, something that leaves the future in O scale rather more precarious than before.
I get you. But I think your beef lies with the manufacturers not consumers.
True , then there is the old saying, "the squeaky wheel gets the oil", and they unfortunately they were the more vocal of the group. To behest Lionchief 2 is Just TMCC with Lionchief remote support. They should just call it TMCC and be done with it, since they have effectively canceled Lionchief Plus and simply borrowed the name to make advertising cheaper.
If its just TMCC. how does it use a Lionchief remote? : )
Jim
They just add a module to TMCC for the optional remote and Bluetooth would be my assumption from what I have read, given TMCC already supported add on boards.
rtraincollector posted:Does anybody have them in stock to buy?
You're jumping the gun, most likely by many months or a year! The catalog just hit the streets, and those items haven't even made it to the Lionel shipping list!
They also went from the LC+ somewhat anemic sound set to the full RailSounds set, obviously with a separate audio board. It does sound like they just built a new TMCC locomotive, added BlueTooth and called it LC+.
gunrunnerjohn,
"It does sound like they just built a new TMCC locomotive, added BlueTooth and called it LC+"
Does this mean the boards could be added to any TMCC engine?
From my perspective, I do think it's a good idea, but it did come later than I would've liked.
My biggest takeaway is that the Lionmaster engines sure aren't as inexpensive as they used to be. A semi-scale Big Boy is at $1200 when I could likely buy a full scale version from MTH for maybe the same. Keep in mind, the catalog states nothing about the new Big Boys having whistle smoke, whereas the previous Legacy version from 2010 did, and was priced at $900.
gunrunnerjohn posted:rtraincollector posted:Does anybody have them in stock to buy?
You're jumping the gun, most likely by many months or a year! The catalog just hit the streets, and those items haven't even made it to the Lionel shipping list!
Well I didn't see any BTO signs on them, so I thought just maybe Lionel got ahead of the game for a change. I see Pat's trains is take pre-orders but I don't do Pre-orders. To many disappointments with then and when you will get them. And when I looked he didn't have what I wanted listed but I'm sure if I asked he would.
I just went to trainworld page and here what they have stated once you open a item
"This is a backorder item and is not currently in stock.
It will be shipped when we receive it from the manufacturer and you will be charged at that time.
Date due: 12/31/2019"
So that gives us an idea the soonest we will see them
I did notice that LionChief Plus 2.0 / comes with no remote controller. Have to use their APP or Universal Remote, but there are more features, marker lights, ditch lights, strobe lights. (See page 75)
Click on this image to make it larger to read........
My Lionel 2019 Catalog came in today's mail. I am going to keep it in the plastic wrapper because my Grandchildren are spending the night this Friday, I will let them open it up and we will read it together.
Gary
gunrunnerjohn posted:They also went from the LC+ somewhat anemic sound set to the full RailSounds set, obviously with a separate audio board. It does sound like they just built a new TMCC locomotive, added BlueTooth and called it LC+.
Did anyone else notice the note under the video in the online catalog? It says:
"Lionchief Plus 2.0 engines can lash-up with Legacy engines with a Legacy controller!"
So they are not TMCC, they are actually Legacy locomotives in non-scale bodies. They are exactly what I've been wanting from Lionel since they introduced LC+. The Big Boy price seems rather high, but the Berk is right in the sweet spot where I'll be happy to buy. If they add LC+2.0 to their other LC+ offerings, I'll be getting quite a few (Hudson, Mikado, and Camelback).
I'm okay with them not coming with a remote because I can use my Cab controllers to run them.
rtraincollector posted:I just went to trainworld page and here what they have stated once you open a item
"This is a backorder item and is not currently in stock.
It will be shipped when we receive it from the manufacturer and you will be charged at that time.
Date due: 12/31/2019"So that gives us an idea the soonest we will see them
This is dealer boilerplate. 
So this gives us really no idea when we'll see the new trains.
So basically the "new" LC+ 2.0 is the same thing that was built into all of the Legacy stuff in last years 2018 catalog. It's TMCC/LEGACY with Bluetooth added on which allows it to be used with the universal remote and the Bluetooth app as well as the CAB1 & 2 remote.
I'm not really seeing anything "new" here other than the 2018 Legacy electronics (with Bluetooth) are now replacing the old LC+ electronics.
sinclair posted:Did anyone else notice the note under the video in the online catalog? It says:
"Lionchief Plus 2.0 engines can lash-up with Legacy engines with a Legacy controller!"
So they are not TMCC, they are actually Legacy locomotives in non-scale bodies. They are exactly what I've been wanting from Lionel since they introduced LC+. The Big Boy price seems rather high, but the Berk is right in the sweet spot where I'll be happy to buy. If they add LC+2.0 to their other LC+ offerings, I'll be getting quite a few (Hudson, Mikado, and Camelback).
I'm okay with them not coming with a remote because I can use my Cab controllers to run them.
You assume facts not in evidence! That statement doesn't make them Legacy locomotives. You can lash up a TMCC locomotive now with a Legacy locomotive, you just have to have the TMCC locomotive the lead locomotive. And yes, you can do this with the Legacy CAB2 as the remote. 
Truthfully, I'd suspect if they really were Legacy locomotives under the skin, they'd have said Legacy and not TMCC in the ad copy.
I wonder if these new engines will beep when turned on or if they will sit silent?
They brought TMCC back so if they control their pricing I am happy with that,
RT that is a big catalog with lot's of offerings it can't all be made at once. We are use to long delays in arrivals. Not happy but use to it.
I also figured out how to buy what I want. A 3 year car loan from the bank.
Jim
To me this makes much more sense. Having compatibility with TMCC/Legacy which really fulfills the Lionel mantra of no train left behind 
This was my one concern with LionChief and LC+ as a concept in general.
I think MTH got this correct with PS2/3 being in nearly every locomotive from the cheapest set to the most expensive scale engine.
A lot less confusion for your punters.
A very positive step by Lionel though.
Nick
Nick12DMC posted:To me this makes much more sense. Having compatibility with TMCC/Legacy which really fulfills the Lionel mantra of no train left behind
This was my one concern with LionChief and LC+ as a concept in general.
I think MTH got this correct with PS2/3 being in nearly every locomotive from the cheapest set to the most expensive scale engine.
A lot less confusion for your punters.
A very positive step by Lionel though.
Nick
Nick, That is 100% spot on!
Maybe one of our Youtube Masters will make a thorough and complete video exploring this new control system and how it will be used with other control systems. Perhaps Mr. Siegel or Mr. McComus would do this as a service to the hobby in general?
I can't help but compare these discussions with the initial reaction to color TV in the 50's. The early sets were bulky, expensive and ran quite warm. There was a lot of reluctance to shift to this new medium especially with the retailers. The engineers had done a splendid job in adding the color TV signal to the B/W signal without increasing the bandwidth. There was also some reluctance to shift from the analog TV signal to digital a few years ago, but we know how that turned out. New technology has a way of winning out eventually no matter how we feel about it.
Hitting this thread late but here's some thoughts:
On the original subject, Is the naming confusing? I suppose it could be for those not familiar with the product lines and features they offer. To me the most confusing, and in my opinion idiotic, naming Lionel ever used was "Legacy" which in every other product ever made means last generation or outdated technology. Ex. legacy support for floppy disk drives on modern computers. The naming scheme with Lion Chief seems fairly straight forward to me. Lion chief is an entry level product that uses constant track power and can only be controlled from it's included remote*. LC+ added the option of transformer control effectively replacing conventional engines in the product line as well as adding some features only found in few conventional engines such as speed control and remote control of couplers. LC+2.0 seems straight forward as well from what little information there is. It does everything LC+ does in addition to being able to be controlled by TMCC/Legacy systems.
Over all, Lion Chief branding has replaced any previous branding for conventional products and by adding support for TMCC it will open these products up to the full command operators that would have been previously opposed to needing another remote.
*LC/+ can also be controlled from a universal remote, and all newer models can also be controlled from an app on smart phones over Bluetooth.
ed h posted:Even more confusing in that the original LionChief and LionChief Plus were not Bluetooth.
Not really. Bluetooth is nice and easy to use, making a phone app really easy to implement, however I suspect that no one ever thought of that when making the first LC engines. Instead, I suspect, that the switch to Bluetooth was made at some point in the engineering process when someone realized that the cost of a 2.4 GHZ transceiver and a separate microprocessor was actually more than using a BLE module. ( Prices for these modules have become insanely cheap over the last few years, where as 10 years ago a similar product might cost well over 50 dollars, they are now about $2.) Additionally, Bluetooth has a licensing fee. You have to pay to use the tech and the logo. Honestly, I'm not a huge fan of the choice of using Bluetooth, as it is an amazing point to point protocol, but garbage if you want to have many devices talking to each other, such as in a full layout control system. Lionel will have to step away from Bluetooth if they want to use modern technology in whatever Legacy 2.0 will be.
carsntrains posted:Jeff T posted:Landsteiner posted:This system is more reliable than Legacy and TMCC in certain ways, a lot less expensive and uses parts that are not going obsolete because they are 10-20 years old.
First, I'm NO expert, but those seem like some big assumptions to me.
You dont have to clean the track all the time. Its only there to pass electricity with LC control or blue tooth!
My question is. Do the LC 2.0 engines run on DC? If not they arent LC at all. Should be called legacy light.
Jim
This is just speculation as I've not seen anything one way or the other, however I don't see any technological reason that they could not run on AC or DC. The AC is needed for the TMCC signal, but it is not difficult for modern electronics to detect if AC or DC is supplied and detect of the track signal is present or not. As far as I'm aware the reason TMCC products can be damaged by DC power is that they use Triacs for power control, which "require" ac to work correctly. (Fellow electronic nerds know what I mean here, keeping it simple for normal folks)
I'm Happy with LC+2.0 for the name. it's LC+ with more features added. Until product ships I don't think anyone will know just how much of an improvement it is, but I'm hopeful that it will compete with original TMCC equipment as there is no technological reason for it not to.
H1000 posted:Hiawatha98 posted:The question is why didn't Lionel introduce LC+2 from the very beginning instead of Lionchief.
DITTO.
All of the technology involved has been available cheaply for years. It's not like they had to wait for Bluetooth 4 to be released before the product could move forward. Bluetooth standards from 15 years ago can easily achieve the same goals being implemented in current LC products.
As addressed before, while the tech has existed for about 2 decades now, the innovation of the jellybean BLE module for $2 is fairly recent. That same tech was much, much more expensive just a couple years ago The next best option, and one I would have preferred, Xbee, costs 10 times as much, and even a year ago cost 35 times more. The same holds for BLE, where earlier iterations of Bluetooth product cost $70 per transceiver.
Stone Rhino posted:Again, this boils down to the universal remote being truly "universal". A BT to TMCC signaling would be dynamite. Like how we had a cable that lets us use TMCC and Legacy base at the same time. Throw into this the PowerMaster unit? Run conventional trains without modification. Brilliant!
carsntrains posted:Stone Rhino posted:I'm a bit new to this stuff. But what is a reverse and coupler lockout?
Jim,
Lock-out's are like flipping the E-Unit/Reverser switch on a post-war. This keeps the engine in the direction you desire every time you cycle the power. On CAB1/TMCC, this is not possible when in command mode (conventional only). On CAB2/Legacy, this has been explored but not committed (Only in conventional mode does the direction lock work).
LC and LC+ kid friendly? Sure is! But having these light-weight plastic trains that travel 10MPH on a surface? In reverse? Hmmm, this is looking like an accident waiting to happen. Even at a paltry 6V DC, these units will power down the track. I had to install mechanical stops into the LC Thomas set remotes to cap their top speed and restrict reverse speeds. I've seen kids go white knuckle to try and turn them to full speed and reverse.
The LC app lets you cap speed (which is not kid-resistant), but not direction or prohibit coupler use.
Changing track voltage won't effect the LC/+ engine's top speed until/unless it is low enough that there simply isn't enough power for the motors to pull the train. EX, a LC+ engine may reach full speed at 8 VAC without a problem if it's pulling nothing, but put 10+ cars behind it and it will not reach near that speed. In the Plus engines, the electronics will work their hardest to make each speed step the same speed no matter the voltage, until they run out of power.
Allin posted:They just add a module to TMCC for the optional remote and Bluetooth would be my assumption from what I have read, given TMCC already supported add on boards.
My guess would actually be the other way around. It would be a whole lot cheaper to just add a R2LC to the LC/+ Bluetooth guts. The 'brain' in LC electronics is inside the Bluetooth module.
On the other replies about sound, with the cost of multi channel mp3 decoders falling rapidly, it would not surprise me to see an all new board that uses this tech. Give the increased prices, though, I also wouldn't be surprised to see the old tech. have to wait and see.
tncentrr posted:Maybe one of our Youtube Masters will make a thorough and complete video exploring this new control system and how it will be used with other control systems. Perhaps Mr. Siegel or Mr. McComus would do this as a service to the hobby in general?
I'm sure someone will do so, but really what more is there to say that isn't already covered in the countless videos already out there on how to use TMCC or how to use LC/+?
Final thoughts for now: I suppose the raised price tag will push these engines out of my price range as they are now getting pretty close to lower end Legacy stuff. It won't really bother me if they continue to offer LC+1.0 at more reasonable prices, or if LC(not Plus) 2.0 comes out at reasonable prices with cruise control and couplers. (not gonna hold my breath on that.)
The fact that these engines don't come with remotes doesn't bother me, since ( I expect) most people in this market will already have a TMCC/Legacy system, a universal remote, or if it is their first engine likely a smart phone. I don't think not having a remote will be a deal breaker for many folks... It still seems like cheeping out on the part of Big L.
Over all I like LC2 from what I see, just think they are pricing out folks like myself that would happily spend $300-400 on a brand new engine, but might go back to buying used TMCC engines for $200 when the next best option is $500+
JGL
Useful discussions. Setting aside the questions of features, operating protocols, product cost and what's included in the box, the fundamental technical advantage of LC is the direct controller to loco signal path. This true whether its 900mHz, 2.4gHz or bluetooth.
JohnGaltLine posted:As addressed before, while the tech has existed for about 2 decades now, the innovation of the jellybean BLE module for $2 is fairly recent. That same tech was much, much more expensive just a couple years ago The next best option, and one I would have preferred, Xbee, costs 10 times as much, and even a year ago cost 35 times more. The same holds for BLE, where earlier iterations of Bluetooth product cost $70 per transceiver.
In 2006 I bought a USB Bluetooth (2.1 version I believe) adapter for $9 on that popular online auction site. I used that same adapter to interface my laptop wirelessly to a Serial DB9 Bluetooth device (about $20 cost in 2006) to plug into a CAB1 base and run tmcc via Bluetooth in 2006. In 2004 I bought a very expensive RTK GPS receiver, the difference in price between the Bluetooth model and non-bluetooth model was $18 retail. Bluetooth wasn't expensive then, or now.
Lionel didn't need to wait for BLE technology. The primary purpose for BLE devices is energy conservation for devices that don't have easily serviceable batteries like TPMS sensors for vehicles. I don't get why BLE is so important for LC to function. Track power is endless supply for the module and three AA batteries will run a standard 2.1 module for 100's hours.
All of the technology being used has existed cheaply for years, Lionel just hasn't put all together until now.
"To me the most confusing, and in my opinion idiotic, naming Lionel ever used was 'Legacy"'
On this, you and I agree 1000 percent. However, it appears to be working for them.
H1000 posted:JohnGaltLine posted:As addressed before, while the tech has existed for about 2 decades now, the innovation of the jellybean BLE module for $2 is fairly recent. That same tech was much, much more expensive just a couple years ago The next best option, and one I would have preferred, Xbee, costs 10 times as much, and even a year ago cost 35 times more. The same holds for BLE, where earlier iterations of Bluetooth product cost $70 per transceiver.
In 2006 I bought a USB Bluetooth (2.1 version I believe) adapter for $9 on that popular online auction site. I used that same adapter to interface my laptop wirelessly to a Serial DB9 Bluetooth device (about $20 cost in 2006) to plug into a CAB1 base and run tmcc via Bluetooth in 2006. In 2004 I bought a very expensive RTK GPS receiver, the difference in price between the Bluetooth model and non-bluetooth model was $18 retail. Bluetooth wasn't expensive then, or now.
Lionel didn't need to wait for BLE technology. The primary purpose for BLE devices is energy conservation for devices that don't have easily serviceable batteries like TPMS sensors for vehicles. I don't get why BLE is so important for LC to function. Track power is endless supply for the module and three AA batteries will run a standard 2.1 module for 100's hours.
All of the technology being used has existed cheaply for years, Lionel just hasn't put all together until now.
There is more to a ble module than just the Bluetooth radio. It is the combination of the radio transceiver with a powerful microprocessor that makes up these modules. In the usb dongles the compute power is handled by your computer. The first such modules appear to have been made around 2012, but it wasn't until 2016 that the mass produced styles with enough compute power hit the market at inexpensive prices.
Over all the radio tech in LC/+ has followed along with what is readily available on the cheap. In the early versions the nrf24l01+ was the best option for a 99 cent transceiver, but it required a separate processor. The ble module combines both and includes a much more powerful processor.
Additionally, any large business is going to have some lead-in time. If some groundbreaking new tech hit the streets today, it will take a year or two before it is widely used. It takes time to get designs together, and to secure supply chains. I'm not saying I wouldn't have liked to see 2.4GHz used sooner, or that it couldn't be done, but the pricing wasn't there to make it work out.
You say bluetooth wasn't expensive then and at the same time say that at you paid about 10 times as much for the radios, and they still needed additional microprocessors or to be plugged into a computer to work. It might not be much on $2000 locomotives, but even that difference is pretty big on a 99 dollar complete train set.
John,
I see where you are coming from, My use of Bluetooth was more of making a wired connection, wireless, my laptop was doing the heavy work of encoding the TMCC commands to be delivered.
However, Bluetooth 2.1 does have processing abilities that do occur at the hardware level, while not nearly as much as what version 4.0 and 5.0 offer. The $20 DB9 serial module I purchased in 2006 also had the ability to communicate with another identical unit without the assistance of a PC or any other hardware, it had to pair, sync, and encrypt that transmissions. Also, much of the audio decoding and encoding for wireless headsets of that era was performed by the module and not with an external processor. The data throughput for Bluetooth 2.0 maxed out at around 3 Mbps which would be more than enough to handle the light communication occurring for LC.
The whole idea really becomes moot though because incorporating Bluetooth back in 2006 really has no practical application. Decent smart phones were finally introduced in that year and still many of which did not have Bluetooth. App development was expensive at the time and probable not cost feasible. The idea really doesn't become practical until around 2010-2011 era where app development is cheaper, smart phones and tablets are readily available in the hands of consumers, and other hobby markets like drones are using similar technology. I'm pretty sure Lionel hired out the app development of the LC app and I know that MTH did also.
What it really boils down to is even if the technology was cheap and readily available back then, the user interface (smart phone & app) needed to catch up before it could be considered. And the primary purpose for Bluetooth integration wasn't to build a universal remote or better wireless communication but rather to have a free app available on smart phones where your only two choices for local wireless communication is Bluetooth or WiFi.
My only disappointment with Lionel's implementation is that they decided to use Class 3 Bluetooth equipment with a range of 3 meters. While most do get better range than that, some of us do not. My experience has been reliable up to 20 feet, after that it gets spotty. However, by now adding TMCC/Legacy this has made the new LC+ 2.0 line more robust.
IMHO for everything except for their premium Legacy offerings, they need to pick the best-of-the best and just call it "LionChief". We can type until our fingers fall off, and I don't think any of this discussion will persuade Lionel to do anything.
H1000 posted:My only disappointment with Lionel's implementation is that they decided to use Class 3 Bluetooth equipment with a range of 3 meters. While most do get better range than that, some of us do not. My experience has been reliable up to 20 feet, after that it gets spotty. However, by now adding TMCC/Legacy this has made the new LC+ 2.0 line more robust.
Did they use class 3? I Can't see that being very likely and would be very disappointed if it's a class3 transceiver. I don't have a Bluetooth model to pull apart, but I suspect it's class 2. I also suspect that any range issues you have may be with the device you use to control with. Many less expensive smart phones only have class 3 Bluetooth or cheap class 2 that barely meets the spec, so while the train can talk to the phone, the phone signal cant make it all the way back to the train. Most flagship or moderate smartphones have class 2 that drastically exceeds the 10 meter spec. For what it's worth, class 3 is 1 meter(~3.3ft), class 2 is 10 meter(~33ft), and class 1 is 100 meter (~330 ft). You may also want to see if there is some power saving feature turned on on your device that could be limiting the transmit power.
John,
Lionel's filing with the FCC for the Universal remote indicates that the universal remote has a maximum power output of 1 mW. That makes it a class 3 device. You may get more range than that but it's not guaranteed. Most smart phones and tablets have Class 2 power output.
Beings that the Universal remote is a class three device, it would make sense that the locomotives are also class three devices.
If you are interested, here is a link to Lionel's FCC filing for the Universal remote (Functional description of the universal remote). Below is an excerpt from that document which indicates the 1mw power rating:
I've heard conflicting stories about the range of Class 3 which is everything from 3 feet, 10 feet, and less than 10 meters.
Bare with me please, I'm a new guy.
While most of the last 2 pages are admittedly beyond my comprehension (at this point) My question is... how do I get from my dad's old (but very cool) steamers, to where the new "cool stuff" is?
In no particular order, I'm reading about Power House, Power Master, TMCC, Legacy, Command Base w/remote, Cab1& Cab2, the little "shack" next to the track so I don't burn up my engines in the event of a spark, and all the requisite cables... I watched Mark, the "Lionel guy" from 5 years ago on You Tube explaining eight different black boxes on the table in front of him, plus a bridge or two, and I can't even tell if I need 7.5 Amps or 20!
(I do have an iPhone and a iPad however, and am familiar with bluetooth.)
I saw a very helpful red and green chart explaining a possible pathway to get from my stuff to the latest and greatest, but do I have to buy all the "black boxes" in between? I'm guessing there are many who find themselves in my position.
I had a fun Christmas season with Dad's (pre and post war) O gauge trains, a 1073, a 1033, and two boxes of track. I built a modest layout with reversing loops and two sidings w/blocks for starters. I am hoping to expand and update with something new for next year and recently purchased a CW80.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
H1000 posted:John,
Lionel's filing with the FCC for the Universal remote indicates that the universal remote has a maximum power output of 1 mW. That makes it a class 3 device. You may get more range than that but it's not guaranteed. Most smart phones and tablets have Class 2 power output.
Beings that the Universal remote is a class three device, it would make sense that the locomotives are also class three devices.
If you are interested, here is a link to Lionel's FCC filing for the Universal remote (Functional description of the universal remote). Below is an excerpt from that document which indicates the 1mw power rating:
I've heard conflicting stories about the range of Class 3 which is everything from 3 feet, 10 feet, and less than 10 meters.
I feel like I need to write a letter to Lionel. I looked up the module listed and yep, it's class 3. This is very disappointing as the nrf24l01+ based transceivers used before the Bluetooth models met and exceeded the class 2 spec. there is absolutely zero excuse for a class 3 ble module in any product that needs to have a functional range over 1 meter especially when the previous generation of product was easily good for 20 meters. Going to have to do some testing when I get home since I've never bothered being more than about 15 feet from an LC engine with a universal remote. if that same module is used inside the engines it is ludicrous.
Gonna eat crow and it doesn't taste that great...
Upon looking over the data sheet for the actual part used in the remote, KW4521A, and going bact to cross reference, BLE(Bluetooth 4.0) does not seem to actually use the same class designations as older Bluetooth. From what I can find, a 1mW ble module should be good for at least 10 meters. there are only 2 classes I've found the ble.4 and .5 with the 5 having a 100 meter range at 10 mW. I'll test range when I get home, but I'm suspecting that even the 1mW version of BLE meets class 2 specs for range under the previous standard.
Lion L 226E posted:Bare with me please, I'm a new guy.
Lion L 226E, take that whole post and start a new thread. You'll get the most help and a lot of information that way.
John,
I found that strange too, maybe they found a way to boost the gain with a better internal antennas?
H1000 posted:John,
I found that strange too, maybe they found a way to boost the gain with a better internal antennas?
See the edit to my last post.
JohnGaltLine posted:H1000 posted:John,
I found that strange too, maybe they found a way to boost the gain with a better internal antennas?
See the edit to my last post.
That makes more sense. I found it hard that I was getting 20 feet of range with a device that's rated for 3?
With scenery and tunnels 20 feet is generally my max reliable range. I bet I'd get 30 feet or more in and open space with line of sight.
The firestorm of discussion over LC2.0 must be very pleasing to Lionel as it will most likely help sales long term. Some of the postings were as long as term papers my students turned in when I was teaching. I am intrigued by the confusion over the operating range of bluetooth.
I love the concept of LC2.0. I only got back into the hobby because of the LC technology. TMCC/Legacy was too complex and expensive for me to set up, and conventional just doesn't have the features IU want.
Sure there have been some growing pains, but I'm excited to see they are iterating on LC.
Now they just need to add some nice Conrail locomotives!
Gary
I'm with you, Gary. I think this is an outstanding product line for those of us who run traditional size trains. I am very excited about the New York Central FT AA set.
I'm not a big fan of apps, but I would buy the universal LC+ remote to run it.
What I don't understand is why there isn't more outrage about LC+2 not including a remote. For example, the LC+ FT AA sets retailed for $499.99 and came with its own remote. The LC+2 FT AA Sets cost $549.99 and do not include a remote. How much more expensive could the new circuit boards possibly be?
Hiawatha98 posted:What I don't understand is why there isn't more outrage about LC+2 not including a remote.
I'm not happy about the price increase but since I already have the Universal Remote and I'm familiar with the app, I don't really care about no remote. And that's probably what Lionel is thinking.
Hiawatha98 posted:What I don't understand is why there isn't more outrage about LC+2 not including a remote.
Because it's basically a TMCC locomotive, and Lionel has never sold a stand alone TMCC locomotive with a remote (I said TMCC, not Legacy. I know Lionel sold the Big Boy with a Legacy remote.). It's a command locomotive that can also be controlled with the LC remote. I'm glad they don't come with a remote, it'd just sit in the box unused as I already have two Cab-1s and two Cab-2s.
sinclair posted:Hiawatha98 posted:What I don't understand is why there isn't more outrage about LC+2 not including a remote.
Because it's basically a TMCC locomotive, and Lionel has never sold a stand alone TMCC locomotive with a remote (I said TMCC, not Legacy. I know Lionel sold the Big Boy with a Legacy remote.). It's a command locomotive that can also be controlled with the LC remote. I'm glad they don't come with a remote, it'd just sit in the box unused as I already have two Cab-1s and two Cab-2s.
The only time I know of Lionel issuing a remote with a TMCC product was some sets. I believe the NYC set had one and I'm guessing the SP that was like a sister set as it was identical other than the road name and paint scheme on the engine, the engines even had the same number.
Since I bought the universal remote, the individuals sit on the shelf. Plus I prefer the app but only have one blue tooth loco. Bottom line is I don't want any more individual remotes. Looking forward to getting LC 2.0 on my recently ordered locos from the new catalog. My layout is 18x18 and no range issues with either Bluetooth or universal remote.
JD2035RR posted:Hopefully they keep the regular LC+ around. There is a big difference between $325-400 LC+ and $500-550+++ LC+ 2.0.
Maybe they were just trying to make a big splash with the LC+ 2.0 line in this catalog, and will have more LC+ (1.0) in the fall catalog. The lion master big boy (many clammored for this one), PE berk (likey will be big seller), FTs, and tier 4s are all nice splashes for the LC+ 2.0.
I agree with this and is what I was hoping for. I was one of the ones saying that I would like something akin to the MTH Imperial Line (semi-scale, lots of detail) with LC+ features. Well, that's what we have with LC+2.0, although not actually having seen a LC+2.0 engine in person, I don't know about the "detail" part. But I never expected Lionel to abandon the LC+ line completely which is what it looks like, so far at least, they've done, which is kind of dumb. I mean, they carved out a really nice niche with the LC+ price-point and now it's gone. Actually, that's dumber than dumb.
Hiawatha98 posted:What I don't understand is why there isn't more outrage about LC+2 not including a remote. For example, the LC+ FT AA sets retailed for $499.99 and came with its own remote. The LC+2 FT AA Sets cost $549.99 and do not include a remote. How much more expensive could the new circuit boards possibly be?
John, I am not outraged about it but I would have preferred each LC+ 2.0 engine to come with a dedicated remote like LC+ does.I have the Universal Remote plus a smartphone and tablet with the LC app so I can live without it.
I guess that Lionel is thinking that those who would buy LC+ 2.0 locomotives would be established hobbyists and either have the Universal Remote, a smart device or a TMCC or Legacy system.
gunrunnerjohn posted:I guess the question is, will LC+ 2.0 replace all the older LC and LC+ options?
According to Ryan, whom I spoke with at the Amherst/Springfield show, LC+2.0 is replacing LC+. Given the feature-rich nature of LC+2.0, I think that LC will continue to be the standard for starter sets. Ryan may have said as much, and I forgot. It may be that the introduction of the LC standalone engines, pp. 124–125 in the catalog, was intentionally done in conjunction with the price range increase from LC+ to LC+2.0.
From what Ive seen the LC+2.0 is about 50 bucks more. I wish that they would include a remote with it but with all the new features I can understand the increase. I hope its a good reliable batch of engines! I cant wait to get that Southern Berkshire! WOO HOO
Jim
I thought this was what everyone wanted. Controll the engine using existing systems. Now that they did it more complaints. Good grief.
Access to this requires an OGR Forum Supporting Membership
