Will the 1361 ever see the rails again

Kelly Anderson posted:

Hot Water posted:

palallin posted:

  C'mon, Jack:  that's just silly.  75 years ago, we could build an aircraft carrier BY HAND in that amount of time.

Even during WWII they didn't build aircraft carriers THAT fast, and you know it!

 

Well, actually, Newport News turned out Essex class carriers at the rate of one every 90 days.

Makes me wonder what has happened to this country.

Some WWII trivia: A set of nine 16" guns for an Iowa class battle ship cost more to build than an Essex class carrier, and all of her planes.

Yea, with the engineering complete, material in stock, and in a production line environment.  Not a one-off.

The money spigot was flowing pretty heavy too. 

GNNPNUT

What the heck does the crap on this page have to do with the 1361?

gnnpnut posted:.

Yea, with the engineering complete, material in stock, and in a production line environment.  Not a one-off.

The money spigot was flowing pretty heavy too. 

GNNPNUT

We're talking about a set of drawings,here, GNNPNUT:  drawings of a boiler that is not essentially different in dimension from the original (for which drawings exist, not to mention the actual item) even though different in material specifications.  And the properties of the materials must be well understood.  The process will be CAD/CAM, no doubt.

The only one of the factors you mention is the $$$, and drawing the process out over 6 - 9 months will more than likely raise the cost, I suspect.

Jim 1939 posted:

What the heck does the crap on this page have to do with the 1361?

Jim 1939, I agree 100%.

I had a note typed last Sunday but deleted it just to keep peace.

Farmer_Bill posted:

Jim 1939 posted:

What the heck does the crap on this page have to do with the 1361?

I never like to see a thread closed when it involves steam preservation, but when it gets this much off topic, it may be time for moderator interference, but that’s just my two cents.

The lettering and logos on those freights cars is backwards.

What exactly is NS's policy on steam now with Jim Squires at the helm? Have they banned all excursions now? But allow ferry moves like with #765 and #611? If #1361 runs again, would NS allow it to use its tracks to at least go to the Nittany & Bald Eagle or Everett RR? It could pull special trips out of Bellefonte again on the Nittany. I rode behind it from York to Menges Mills, PA in August, 1988. They were doing special excursions there, and they also ran down to Hanover Junction as well. Coaches were closed end steel open window coaches borrowed from Strasburg. They had several of them, and sold them to a tourist railroad in Texas around 1990. It just seems like Moorman had big plans for steam on NS, and it only lasted so long before NS decided that it wasn't worth it anymore. Moorman left NS shortly before the #765 and TVRM excursions on NS ended, sometime in 2015 to take the top spot at Amtrak which was intended to be temporary as he really wanted to retire to spend more time with his family. But his retirement at Amtrak caused the loss of most mainline excursions because that jerk Anderson wants nothing to do with them. I would kill for a ride from Newark, NJ to Harrisburg, PA on the NS freight only lines through my area, Amtrak did such an excursion in late October, 2016 but I didn't ride it. Now the Amtrak Autumn Expresses are over due to their stupid policy. Oh well, there are still plenty of trains to ride in the northeast without mainline excursions. Tourist railroads, Amtrak, SEPTA, NJT, etc.

palallin posted:

USS San Jacinto, CVL 30:

"[L]aid down 26 Oct 1942; . . .  launched 29 Sept 1943"

USS Wright, CVL 49:

"Laid down on 21 Aug 1944 . . . launched on 1 Sep 1945"

USS Block Island, CVE 21:

"Laid down 19 January 1942, launched 6 June 1942"

USS Sangamon, CVE 26:

"Laid down 13 march 1939, launched 4 November 1939"

Dates from NavSource.

 

How long did it take the Altoona shops to build the engine to begin with?  The little Frisco turned out a whole class of 4-8-2s in that amount of time!

Jack, there is nothing reasonable about 6 - 9 months just to complete the drawings.  Or for them to be approved, for that matter.  That these kinds of delays and overages by engineers, businesses, and government is considered the norm today is a source of national shame.

Palallin

Those were all light carriers on cruiser hulls or escort carriers on merchant ship hulls.  The record for Essex class carriers was about 10 months, most took over a year.  And "launched" does not equal completed.  Every one of those ships spent months more being fitted out between launching and commissioning, longer still until they were ready for action.

Here is a question that might be highly relevant to the 1361's boiler redesign:  What took longer, to lay down and launch a ship or to produce all the detailed drawings and associated engineering calculations and navy bureaucratic approvals required before a ship yard could begin to build it?

As much and steam fans would like to see a K4 on the road again this isn't a national emergency.  Six to nine months for a K4 boiler design that meets current engineering requirements sounds pretty good to me. 

Ted Hikel posted:

Palallin

Those were all light carriers on cruiser hulls or escort carriers on merchant ship hulls.  And "launched" does not equal completed.  Every one of those ships spent months more being fitted out between launching and commissioning, longer still until they were ready for action.

Here is a question that might be highly relevant to the 1361's boiler redesign:  What took longer, to lay down and launch a ship or to produce all the detailed drawings and associated engineering calculations and navy bureaucratic approvals required before a ship yard could begin to build it?

As much and steam fans would like to see a K4 on the road again this isn't a national emergency.  Six to nine months for a K4 boiler design that meets current engineering requirements sounds pretty good to me. 

I said built; I didn't say commissioned.

Actually, the jeep carrier designs took a VERY short time, and they were drawn by hand, adapting existing designs. 

No, this engine is not a national emergency, but there is no mystery to it, either.  The boiler is a known design; the materials known quantities, and the projected outcome easily determined.  They are mildly modifying the boiler for a steam engine designed 100 years ago, of which hundreds were built.  No secrets, no inventions, nothing new.  The whole job is adapting well understood techniques, practices, and parts.  There is no legit reason whatever for the drawings to take that long.  There are, no doubt, many illegit reasons.

It's no wonder this country is going down the industrial tubes if anyone believes this design project requires that much time, effort, and money.

palallin posted:

 

The boiler is a known design; the materials known quantities, and the projected outcome easily determined.  They are mildly modifying the boiler for a steam engine designed 100 years ago, of which hundreds were built.  No secrets, no inventions, nothing new.  The whole job is adapting well understood techniques, practices, and parts. 

Known to whom?  All the designers and boiler makers from 100 years ago are dead.  There are no large engineering offices staffed with locomotive boiler designers who recently worked on a K2, L1 or E6.  A K4 boiler that meets current FRA specs is something new and new locomotive boiler design is not a common request for many people alive and working in the 21st century. 

How many man-hours do you think this project should take?  Then consider that the work will be done by a few people rather than distributed over a large team of engineers and draftsman.  If you had 12 people working for two weeks they will work the same number of hours as one person working alone for six months.

This country may or may not be "going down the industrial tubes" but a K4 boiler redesign project isn't likely to be a good indicator.  

Strasburg Rail Road shops started the rebuild of LIRR G5 39's boiler and faced somewhat similar issues with the original PRR G5 design not meeting current FRA requirements.  Several years ago when that boiler was still inside I was given a shop tour and my host (I recall it was the CMO) described how they were meeting the FRA boiler requirement  by making the new crown sheet using thicker steel.  I don't believe they had to increase the number and placement of the stay bolts.   Unfortunately RR Museum of LI funds ran out and restoration work on 39's boiler stopped.   The last I heard 39's boiler is sitting outside the Strasburg shops until sufficient funds are raised to restart the work.   The chassis and tender are on RR Museum of LI's property across from the Riverhead, NY station.  I believe the cost sharing and operational use agreement remains in effect.  IMO a G5 4-6-0 is just about a perfect match for Strasburg's operations.  Having been raised on Long Island and seeing G5's in service I hope to someday to ride behind 39 at Strasburg.     Comments/corrections appreciated Kelly.

The expertise to construct a new boiler for 1361 exists today.  A new boiler for 1361 just requires vision and cash.  A couple of excerpts from the website for the PRR T1 project:  

"The Pennsylvania Railroad T1 Steam Locomotive Trust is excited to announce the purchase order for the first three boiler courses of new build 4-4-4-4 #5550. The order for the third and final cylindrical course was placed with Continental Fabricators, Inc. of St. Louis, MO on May 5, 2018."

"The PRR T1 Trust is pleased to partner with Continental Fabricators. A strong player in Railway Preservation, Continental Fabricators is presently working on 3 other steam locomotive boiler projects. Continental Fabricators has been providing boiler repairs and new construction to steam locomotive preservation efforts since the 1980’s."

https://prrt1steamlocomotivetr...?route=boiler/boiler

Dale

Has anyone heard of any progress on 1361?  The Altoona Mirror article is now 2 years old.  I'm curious if anyone has any newer information.  Thanks!

A couple of very wealthy individuals have stepped forward to fund the work on this locomotive. They have chosen to keep things quiet as they do their work.

I know one of the individuals, and based on what I know about him, I'm sure the 1361 will  run again somewhere.

Wow! That's fantastic news Rich!

All of the b.s. going on in the world these days but this has to be one of the best times in steam restoration.

So many locos either running or on the way to be running.

Wow, that is great news. Hopefully running order will be what comes of all this. I was told that #460 The Lindbergh Special wasn't able to be put into running order because of something being cracked in the frame or elsewhere below. I was also told that in order to fix that would be extremely costly and the museum just wouldn't go that route because of the cost. 1361 hopefully gets luck on its side and will be back in working order in however long it takes to get it there.

Thanks for sharing that new Rich.  For as long as this has been going on, it has been easy to lose hope in the project. No need to rehash those memories!

I've been living with my diminutive version for many years.

Is it true the LIRR will not let the 1361 run on it's rails?Also was the 1361 converted to oil?

1361 was never converted to run on oil.  As to where it will be able to run, I suspect no major railroad will permit it on their rails in full operation due to insurance requirements.  It is more likely to operate on shortlines or excursion roads.  Put some P70's behind it and it would look great running from Strasburg to Paradise. 

@joe krasko posted:

Is it true the LIRR will not let the 1361 run on it's rails?

I'm not aware that the LIRR was EVER contacted about allowing the 1361 on their property, since it was/is headquartered in Pennsylvania.

Also was the 1361 converted to oil?

No. Never even considered. She fires beautifully on coal, even when the stoker screw failed, she was pretty easy to hand-fire (I can speak from experience).

Oil burning, coal burning two different locomotives, apples and oranges just about. Maybe not apples and oranges, maybe Granny Smith Apples versus Golden Delicious Apples. They're sort of the same, but different from each other.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Oil burning, coal burning two different locomotives, apples and oranges just about. Maybe not apples and oranges, maybe Granny Smith Apples versus Golden Delicious Apples. They're sort of the same, but different from each other.

Well, only the firebox, i.e. furnace system, is really different. Other than that, a steam locomotive is a steam locomotive is a steam locomotive.

@Hot Water posted:

Well, only the firebox, i.e. furnace system, is really different. Other than that, a steam locomotive is a steam locomotive is a steam locomotive.

Hence why I went to apples of two different kinds. If it was diesel to steam, apples and oranges.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Hence why I went to apples of two different kinds. If it was diesel to steam, apples and oranges.

I'm beginning to think you need to do a LOT more reading about steam locomotives.

I just forked a couple of posts here into a new topic.

Can we PLEASE keep this thread on the subject of the 1361? If you want to ask about other steam locomotives, or oil vs coal firing, start a new thread!

@Hot Water posted:

I'm beginning to think you need to do a LOT more reading about steam locomotives.

Well, always glad to go to school, because I have a lot to learn. Rich gave me a few lessons including clearing up someone I know ridiculous claim about steam locomotives which I declared complete BS. I do have some sense, but not enough to even figure out what is considered a good bang or a bad bang. Best if I just stand back way off the platform and let the trains roll by.

Huh, I started this thread along time ago on another account. Didnt expect it to return 2 years later.

I don’t have any clue what kind of investment it would take to get that running.  I would imagine hundreds of thousands at the least.  Millions probably?

Ben

This thread is coming back for a third time, and let’s try to keep it on topic this time, shall we?

Many rumblings can be seen coming from Altoona, all beginning with a post today. I’ll include screenshots below, but a simple post with the phrasing “We woke up feeling all nostalgic today” and a photo of 1361 was made. This doesn’t seem like much until one does some investigative journalism. Along with this post, the museum posted that ARM and the HSC will be closed (tomorrow, June 24th) for private events. Again, doesn’t seem like much. I happen to follow FMW solutions on social media (the group tasked with FEC148’s comeback), and saw they had made a post as well.

FMW’s post consisted of the ARM clock and the caption “We hear it’s a good time to be in Altoona… #prr #prr1361”. Based on assumption, a large announcement is coming this week concerning the infamous K4. If FMW is indeed involved, I have full faith that we’ll be seeing some Pennsy steam in the near future.

A few other things: ARM finally made a new website that purposefully excludes all information about 1361. It also lists Wick Moorman as chairmen and Bennett Levin as secretary. Anyone who’s been keeping up with the story for awhile will know these two spearheaded the revival of East Broad Top, as well as held a presentation concerning 1361 back around 2018/19.

As of late, 1361’s boiler was taken off the flatcar it has rested on for quite some time, been rotated 180 degrees, and it seems as if work has begun on removing staybolt caps and the corresponding staybolts removed.

https://www.railroadcity.org/mission.html

https://m.facebook.com/railroadcity/

https://m.facebook.com/fmwsolutions/

You don’t need facebook to view the links, I don’t have it and they work fine for me.

This is the one thing that I would definitely hope gets back on the rails before I am way too old. Yeah, I know I am still young, but I know what some people have said on here. "There is no chance that thing is ever going to be running on the rails ever again.", or something like that. I would love seeing this being completely restored. I know that the Lindbergh Special #460 is only cosmetically restored because there is a crack in the frame that they cannot repair(without great cost). That is unfortunate for #460, but it does look nice(even though I'd love to see it run).

The real question is how long would it take to restore 1361, with it being all in pieces, and the overall cost? Whatever it is going to take, it is going to be interesting to see what the progress would be if it ever comes.

So I just realized the thread has arose again. So is this confirmed that it has been fired up or is it just a rumor

Last I heard (not that long ago), was that a newly fabricated boiler was the plan for 1361 - the only way that they can run at full boiler pressure ( and keep running for more than a few months). With the current tired and worn boiler, max speed would never be over 45 MPH.  Fabricating a new boiler could have been done in the first place for what was spent, but it has been like the 'Money Pit' movie, a new adventure around every corner.  The folks that are now behind the K4 new boiler plan know how to find the money and the know how. Stay tuned.

If the Class 1 railroads won't let it run, there are other places.  (just had a cab ride in N&W 611 - for example)

Jim

@Burnzy posted:

So I just realized the thread has arose again. So is this confirmed that it has been fired up or is it just a rumor

Locomotive is being restored, not able to be fired yet. As I said above, apparently some announcement is to come this week regarding future operation of the loco.

For the cost of a 1361 rebuild, maybe many steamers can come out of the weather into some sort of shelter.

And even rebuilt, where would uou run it?

I am a PRR fan.  But in this case reason trumps over operation.

Per Ross Rowland on RYPN:

“They will make public announcements when they deem it appropriate.

FMW is an outfit headed up by PE Wolfgang Fengler. They have been hired to do the Form 4 on the 1361 and are actively pursuing that.

FMW was brought in to finish the 148 project when US Sugar and Scott Lindsay agreed to part company several years back. Scott's long time company is called Steam Operations Corp.

All is well. Ross Rowland”

http://www.rypn.org/forums/vie...25f18ac&start=60

The OP asked, “Will the 1361 ever see the rails again?"

The answer is yes.

Ok, for all the unwashed, what do the following TLAs (Three Letter Acronym) mean? My guesses are in parentheses.

HSC (Horse Shoe Curve)

ARM (Altoona Railroader's Museum)

FMW (Full Metal Washboard)

Chris

LVHR (a FLA (Four Letter Acronym) for Lehigh Valley High Railers)

@lehighline posted:

Ok, for all the unwashed, what do the following TLAs (Three Letter Acronym) mean? My guesses are in parentheses.

HSC (Horse Shoe Curve)

ARM (Altoona Railroader's Museum)

FMW (Full Metal Washboard)

Try FMW Solutions LLC. A Google search will reveal more about them.

Chris

LVHR (a FLA (Four Letter Acronym) for Lehigh Valley High Railers)

FYI... announcement at 5 ET today per FMW facebook page.

I don't know any details (who/what/where) other than that to keep your ears open at that time.