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Aahh, the Lionel die-cast ES44AC.  Arguably the best o scale diesel ever to hit the market from Lionel, but will we ever see it again?  If reintroduced, would this diesel have a big market or not?  Would Lionel ( knowing the way they operate ), realizing it’s demand, dramatically raise the price if it’s reproduced?  What do you think?

Last edited by Jack Swan5010
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Personally, I am not expecting to see them, but you never know? There was a discussion about this very item a few months ago and as I recall the group thinking was that MSRP would have to be somewhere around $1200 or possibly even more considering price increases since the original batch. I think it was questionable as to how many would be willing to pay that much? I would not be in for one at those prices.

BigRail posted:

$850.  That's all I would be willing to shell out for it.  BigRail

You realize that's the MSRP (or close to it) when these were first produced several years ago.  So right off the bat, I'd say you and Lionel will be on divergent paths with respect to price!    I don't think we've seen a "reasonably" priced high-end locomotive since this team of Lionel execs has taken the reigns.  And with the latest Vision Line GG-1 coming in with a $1299 MSRP, you just gotta believe this crew is gonna make any potential future-run of die-cast ES44's hurt... probably giving us a price tag that would exceed the Vision Line GG-1's MSRP.

Ironically, Lionel would probably sell quite a few them.  However, they'd also sell quite a few Vision Line Tankers w/Freightsounds if these gems were re-issued, but Lionel seems to just look the other way on those too.  So I wouldn't hold my breath on more die-cast ES44's.

David

Rocky,

IMO, Lionel is still trying to make things 'collectible' with limited production and special items. I guess this is fine for the collectors out there, but how many are really collecting the newer electronic train items? I am not a collector so I have no idea, but is seems like most folks I see posting about collecting are talking about prewar, postwar or even both. I suppose some collect the Vision Line items, but I am not sure about all the rest of the newer modern items (which is all I have)? I am no expert on any of this, was just kind of curious about the newer items being collectible?

Last edited by rtr12

David, your summary of Lionel Re-Manufacturing the Die-Cast ES44AC's is right on Target. Although they were Priced around $799-$850, at that time many Collector/Operators felt they were Over Priced for mere Diesels....Wow, no one would ever Imagine they would become such a Hot Commidity...Selling for almost double or even more due to limited Availability...I had each of them at one time and do to Down Sizing sold most of them, at a reasonable margin over what I paid as they were Built To Order priced to me... Knowing that Mike Reagan felt they were a Service Nightmare, and suggested negativity to their return to the Catalog,  I think Now that Lionel is Listening to Our Wants, The Lionel Team might Return these Die-Cast Diesels again as a VisionLine Product, with newer and better Electronics, Blue Tooth/Wifi Capability, better trucks, and of course, More Money$$$$. They have the Tooling....I am thinking $1099.... I would also be a buyer as they were fun to run...I would also like to see the VisionLine Gensets come back, also Die-Cast NW2's, Maybe a Die-Cast SD70Ace????(The Tank Cars to) Wow, we can Dream.....

leapinlarry posted:

They have the Tooling....I am thinking $1099.... I would also be a buyer as they were fun to run...I would also like to see the VisionLine Gensets come back, also Die-Cast NW2's, Maybe a Die-Cast SD70Ace????(The Tank Cars to) Wow, we can Dream.....

Tooling costs are a big investment, and getting return from investment is important, so these engines may rise again.

BREEZINUP, Yes, your exactly right, The Tooling Cost is the Big Expense, and I think the Demand for these Super Nice Heavy Locomotives is there....If Lionel did a proper Upgrade looking at whatever are problem area's, upgraded the electronics and made some new Road Names, as well as the Original Road Names, I think there would be a lot of orders....Since Lionel is Venturing into Brass/Hybrid Steam Locomotives, then, they should re-consider making these Die-Cast ES44's....

 I don't have a lot of Lionel. What I do have I like very much. I think they did several things that could be considered an advancement to the hobby. I think the Acela set, and these diesels were examples. Although they may have had their faults, I still applaud Lionel for their effort. I wish the Acela set was sold as pieces so people like me, could have got something and built up a set. I am mainly 2 rail so I was on the fence.

 There must have been a market for these higher end diesels. Just look at what's around for sale now. I think it would be foolish for Lionel to ignore that unless they don't have all the tooling still.

 But hey, what do I know? I'm still hoping for more tank cars with sound. Some complained about the price back then. Nobody complains about the old price anymore. Now, 300 would be a steal. I even enjoyed the break down reefers. I always look at what Lionel is doing. It adds excitement to the hobby.

Last edited by Engineer-Joe
leapinlarry posted:

BREEZINUP, Yes, your exactly right, The Tooling Cost is the Big Expense, and I think the Demand for these Super Nice Heavy Locomotives is there....If Lionel did a proper Upgrade looking at whatever are problem area's, upgraded the electronics and made some new Road Names, as well as the Original Road Names, I think there would be a lot of orders....Since Lionel is Venturing into Brass/Hybrid Steam Locomotives, then, they should re-consider making these Die-Cast ES44's....

I'm wondering how big a demand when the ABS version that cost hundreds less is nearly the exact engine minus the faults?   I think current availability, not collector value and surely not quality engineering is the only reason the original die-cast ES44's command a slight premium which then drives blind interest for a reissue today.    If Lionel were foolish enough to reissue the engine with the same faults that plagued the original (weak handrails etc.) price will be high, demand will be weak, the same problems will resurface and value of the originals will plummet.   Bottom line,  if I really wanted a die-cast ES44, I'd look for a deal on a original and be done with it.

joe 

leapinlarry posted:

David, your summary of Lionel Re-Manufacturing the Die-Cast ES44AC's is right on Target. Although they were Priced around $799-$850, at that time many Collector/Operators felt they were Over Priced for mere Diesels....Wow, no one would ever Imagine they would become such a Hot Commidity...Selling for almost double or even more due to limited Availability...I had each of them at one time and do to Down Sizing sold most of them, at a reasonable margin over what I paid as they were Built To Order priced to me... Knowing that Mike Reagan felt they were a Service Nightmare, and suggested negativity to their return to the Catalog,  I think Now that Lionel is Listening to Our Wants, The Lionel Team might Return these Die-Cast Diesels again as a VisionLine Product, with newer and better Electronics, Blue Tooth/Wifi Capability, better trucks, and of course, More Money$$$$. They have the Tooling....I am thinking $1099.... I would also be a buyer as they were fun to run...I would also like to see the VisionLine Gensets come back, also Die-Cast NW2's, Maybe a Die-Cast SD70Ace????(The Tank Cars to) Wow, we can Dream.....

IIRC, the plastic ES44's had the headlights in the wrong location for many of the engines such as the Santa Fe and Florida East Coast road names where they should have been on the nose rather than over the windshield unlike the die-cast versions which seemed to be produced correctly. Wonder how much tooling they own? Probably the engines that have been re-run 3 or four times in the past few years? We're out on a $1,000 dollar diesel though in the current economy there seems to be a quite few folks with unlimited budgets.

JC642, your thoughts are your thoughts however I feel, with the proper tweaking and new electronic enhancements these Heavy, Beautiful, Scale Replicas's are going to be sought after by the folks that really enjoy Lash Ups and Love to Run Trains. If they become a Collectible, that's a side product of the sale. Have you ever owned one of these Die-Cast Beauties?  They are Desireable. I remain from saying things like foolish, as there are a lot of Lionel Folks that would applaud re-issues of these heavy duty Locomotives...Yes plastic is fine, it's all in One's Wants and Desires....It's Die-Cast for me....I say again, Lionel could make a separate catalog, VisionLine Scale Products, BTO, and really give us choice.... You see, there are Cadillacs, and there are Lincolns, this would be the RollsRoyce of our Engines...Just my thinking, everyone has there own ideas.....

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