Williams & Weaver brass GS4/GS2 'Daylight' Northerns

Are you looking for a runner or for a display model?  Very different considerations ...

Don't know how the Weaver performs on the track (yet) ...  The Williams may be seen in action on these YouTube videos (not mine): 

Throttle wide open - early TruSounds/Ott sound system? and with Weaver cars:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKLqW9VbtaA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zshA_o4C0J4

I remember someone complaining that one of the two had a very glossy paint job - can't remember which.

DAB

The Weaver brass by Samhongsa generally had more piping details than some of the earlier Williams Brass by Samhongsa. IDK how it went for the streamlined SP steam engines.

Looking for neither - Just curious as I used to have a hobby shop back when Williams was producing these brass beauties. We sold several of the Williams models and it was indeed high gloss. I was out of trains for awhile when Weaver came out with theirs and don't recall if I've ever seen one. 

I have both of these engines and they are real beauties!  The Weaver came with sound (QSI, similar to ProtoSound in function and not all Weavers had this) while I have added TMCC to the Williams.  Visibly the main differences are that the GS4 has 2 headlights while the GS2 has only one.  The GS4 has the late large SOUTHERN PACIFIC in the orange stripe while the GS2 has Southern Pacific Lines in the upper crimson stripe on the tender.

I love the way they run and often run both, one pulling the Sunset cars and one the Daylight.

Rolland

My memory could be fuzzy, but I thought the GS2 didn't have ladders to the cab like a GS4, and on the weaver model they forgot to include steps on the front of the tender to the cab which would mean the engineer would have to leap very high to get into the cab. Anyone have some photos or was I just dreaming that?

I had the Williams model and enjoyed it but it needed weight added to pull a good train.

I could be wrong, but the Weaver GS-2 looked to me like it had 80 inch drivers like the earlier Williams GS-4. If so, it would have been better designated a GS-3 and numbered 4416 or higher. The only GS-3 in three rail to date?

Found a few photos of the Weaver - box says it is a GS-2, also made in black:

I own neither of the brass GS locos, but so far as I know the Weaver "GS2" is not a GS2. (See below response; seems I am, uh, mistaken...) It is a GS4 with a single headlight smokebox front. The GS-2 and the GS-4 had different driver sizes, different length, open/enclosed cab, different boiler details...the GS2 was "reproduced" during WWII as the GS6 - with the addition of an enclosed cab - because it could be considered a dual-service loco (smaller drivers than the GS4/5) and the WPB would not allow passenger locos to be built during the war.

I have always preferred the dimensions/proportions/features of the GS2 to the other GS classes.

(Now - the GS1 4-8-4....no one ever talks about it. Baldwin-built, non-streamlined, totally different look. Someone should have offered it back when everybody was building everything.)

D500 posted:

 

(Now - the GS1 4-8-4....no one ever talks about it. Baldwin-built, non-streamlined, totally different look. Someone should have offered it back when everybody was building everything.)

+1 on the GS-1. Perfect candidate for Lionel's hybrid program.

Pete

David,

Interesting second photo appears to be a GS-4 engine, appropriate ladder to the cab but with smaller lettering on the tender. It makes me wonder if that is the Weaver tender with the Williams GS-4 engine.

The others look to be the GS-2 with no ladder to the cab which is correct, but without the steps on the front of the tender which is incorrect as I recall.

Between photos 1 and 2 you can see the GS-2 does not have a cab door and the GS-4 does have a cab door.

christopher N&W posted:

David,

Interesting second photo appears to be a GS-4 engine, appropriate ladder to the cab but with smaller lettering on the tender. It makes me wonder if that is the Weaver tender with the Williams GS-4 engine.

The others look to be the GS-2 with no ladder to the cab which is correct, but without the steps on the front of the tender which is incorrect as I recall.

Between photos 1 and 2 you can see the GS-2 does not have a cab door and the GS-4 does have a cab door.

Boy, is my face red. 

The Weaver GS2 above in the photos does indeed appear to be a GS2, not a lightly changed GS4. All these years I had thought, for some reason, that Weaver had just put on a new front and called it done. I am not sure about all the boiler detailing differences from the photos, but the cab and front are right-looking, as is the tender, I believe.

Well, shoot - now I have to want one. I have a Lionel Legacy GS6 (Pilot), but brass always appeals.

All but one of the Weaver GS Daylight photos above are of cab # 4410, which were issued by Weaver in July 1993.  The one GS engine photo above which does have a cab ladder is of an engine with road # 4449; there was another photo of the underside of that engine is here:

Note that it does not have a Weaver builder's plate.

Here is a photo of a 1994 Weaver PRR K-4 Torpedo which shows the builder's plate:

So while the # 4449 photo posted above was sold as a Weaver engine, I am inclined to believe it was a Williams engine put in the wrong box, and that the auctioneer did not catch the error - and nor did I!

David

David98 posted:

Found a few photos of the Weaver - box says it is a GS-2, also made in black:

 

Maybe these

OddIsHeRU posted:

I could be wrong, but the Weaver GS-2 looked to me like it had 80 inch drivers like the earlier Williams GS-4. If so, it would have been better designated a GS-3 and numbered 4416 or higher. The only GS-3 in three rail to date?

MTH's GS-2 uses the same huge driver's as the GS-4 and has the same cab as the GS-4 which i don't think is right, but you could look at it as if it were a "GS-3" too..., but the Weaver would seem to be the most accurate misnumbered/mislabeled "GS-3" produced to date. Don't know for sure.

Weaver issued three engines, SP Daylight, SP Black and WPWilliams

Wow!  I never checked!  And for a guy who has a GS-1 and a GS-3, as well as the "GS-2" with a modified tender, I just never noticed the driver size!  I will check tomorrow, but meantime, what an excuse to again share my photos!

I will spare you the GS-4s - they are nice models, but for the most part factory built.  The Max does have Overland drivers, but it would take an expert to tell it from USH.

I also had no idea the really excellent Weaver was basically the Williams - but it makes sense.  Gimme a minute to find the photos . . .

Here we go - the scratch built Daylight is a GS-2 in 17/64; The GS-1 is crafted from an All Nation Mountain boiler and a Lobaugh tender.  Hopefully I can find a photo of the Weaver as well - note the tender platform and steps.  the Weaver started life as a 3-rail model.  Also note that the Weaver has incorrect rear ladders and incorrect water tank curvature.  I think that means it is a Williams GS-4 tender.

Finally "measured" the Weaver drivers.  Mine have new tires, so they may not be the same exact diameter as others.  Mine measure 78" over the tread, making this model a darn good GS-3 copy, albeit with a GS-4 tender.

Bob2 -Just checked the driver diameters on my Williams GS-4. They are 1-5/8”  (or 78” 1:1 scale) just like yours. Kind of supports a long standing suspicion that Samhongsa cleverly  recycled the Williams chassis recipe (including left over wheels?) for the  Weaver GS-2 order. So after all the above, none of them are correct? 

At this Thanksgiving season, I’m so thankful  we had so early on (1989) such a beautiful, close enough model that still runs like a fine tuned Swiss watch. 

Regarding absence of a boiler weight mentioned by Christopher N & W, I was fortunate. The cylindrical lead “block” of a leftover organ Trumpet pipe was the ideal shape, weight, and size for the Williams GS-4 boiler. My engine thus became an excellent puller. In a phone conversation shortly after, Andy Edelmann (then with Jerome Williams), shared that the weight was intentionally omitted. Their concern was that the GS-4 (their first experience with a larger brass loco for three rail), might be too top heavy with a large enough weight over the drivers. The engine might suffer after a number of children’s high speed curve roll outs on their dad’s typical tubular rail carpet layout. I assured him my engine behaved quite well with the large weight.

The GS-4 had a quieter drive train because of a motor mount featuring minimal contact with the chassis, perhaps to dampen transfer of any motor vibration sound to the body. The motor sort of floated, yet again, a design concern in the case of too many roll overs. The N & W J of 1990 (weight included by Samhongsa) had a rigid motor mount, and yes, mine has a bit of a hum in the drive train.