Williams Can Motor Heat

My Santa Fe FP45 was so hot the plastic shell started melting, now it is a shelf Queen.

Interesting, I have a couple of Williams models that I've upgraded to command, I've never seen this issue.  I have the scale GG-1 with TMCC that I've run for at least an hour non-stop, nothing got hot pulling seven 19" MTH passenger cars.  I also have an A-A F3 set upgraded to PS/2, same comment, no heat issues that I've ever seen.

these are cheap Mabuchi 3 slot motors and can draw big time current if a good load gets on them.  You need to check the motor to truck gears for good lube, and put a drop of heavy oil on the bearings.  A friend of mine made ball bearing versions of these motors for the early Williams steamers and turned new flywheels as they are most of the time out of round.  An easy fix is to pull motor to gearbox conector out and then off a extra qsi reverse unit run the motor mtd in the engine mount and put a file on the brass flywheel and turn until it is all nice and bright and no dull spots meaning all of the flywheel has been touched.  Then I used 400 paper to smooth the flywheel.  Then to verify it is round, put a plunger micrometer on the spinning wheel and was able to get it to + or - 0  .001  Boy do those engines run great then and with the 40 to one gearing that samhongsa used the run super and do not get a heavy load on them and run cool. 

I have 27 Williams and WBB engines - six sets of F3's; eight GP9's; five sets of the scale FA's; one set of F7's; four GP38's; two GP30's and one GG1.

All of my F3's, FA's, GP38's, GP30's and at least two of the GP9's were converted to series wiring which, with the higher voltage required, you would assume would have the potential to run warmer than normal.  Yet I have never had an overheating issue with any these engines - whether modified to series wiring or kept in original wiring configuration - absolutely none.

The only WBB engine that runs warmer than I'd like is the GG1.

Curt

Something to check i noticed on my orginal not by bachmann willimas GP38 the rear motor was getting warm but not hot and i did oil the motor bearings and put red and tacky grease in it. I kept checking and noticed the front motor start up before the rear motor and noticed the motor turn kind of tight by hand and come find out the motor mount was machined wrong so lucky when got new motor it had new motor mount and i switched them out run fine after that.  

There was a post on the Bachmann/Williams forum about the motors getting hot. The issue is the circuit board has gone bad! Bachmann got a batch of bad circuit boards a few years ago and it seems the same thing is happening again.

Replace the circuit board with a bridge rectifier(must have a way to convert the AC to DC for the can motors) or a known good circuit board and see what happens.

FYI; I have about 14 Williams engines mostly Williams before Bachmann, and never had a hot running motor issue. Plus I have even installed a bridge rectifier instead of circuit boards in 2 off my older Williams engines because of not starting the direction I wanted them to start in or run. None of my Williams engines have developed the hot motor syndrome.

Lee Fritz

I have many W/WBB, and I do not have the problem with heat.  I do keep them lubed.  How big is the transformer running them?  I have mine on one 180 PowerHouse brick on one loop, and 2 PH's via a TPC 400 on another.

If it's the reverse unit, that would explain why I never have the issue.  I convert them to command before any significant running, so I'm using a totally different electronics package.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

If it's the reverse unit, that would explain why I never have the issue.  I convert them to command before any significant running, so I'm using a totally different electronics package.

You are probably safe with that! As I read on the Bachmann/Williams forum about the heat sink in the circuit boards failing, personally I have no idea what has failed with the circuit board but highly suspect the Bachmann circuit boards.

Lee Fritz

I think I may give a new, non-Bachmann or Williams reverse board a shot. I see Dallee has them in stock, that may be worth a try for fun to see what happens, especially with the J as I know that has a new motor in it (assuming the new motor doesn't solve the problem). Worst comes to worst, I'll toss the reverse unit in a box for future use.

I won't purchase another Williams/WBB loco until I get the ones I have to run cool. I run on 0-31 and 0-42 using Z1000 or Z500 transformers curves so there is greater flange bind but then again, all of these are 0-27 minimum engines.

Here is a little something I noticed last night.

I did some testing with MTH PS2 and PS3 diesels.

I used an MTH Railking Dash 8 (4 wheel trucks) with PS3, MTH Railking Scale SW1 with PS2 and a brand spankin' new in the box (old stock), purchased from local dealer, PS2 MTH Premier GP9.

I noticed the SW1 motors, after about an hour with an 8 car train of plastic cars with diecast trucks/couplers and a dummy Williams diesel got very warm but not blistering hot. Trucks and rollers also felt warm.

Same goes for the Dash 8, very warm but not extremely hot. I also noticed the trucks and rollers felt warm.

The GP9 I did a little different - I did about 20 minutes with above train with cruise turned OFF. I noticed a good deal of heat coming off the motors. Taking the shell off found the front motor (without tach tape) was extremely hot, the tach tape motor was nearly just as hot. Did about a half hour of running with cruise turned on (running at higher voltage now to keep same speed as when cruise was off) and noticed the motors still very hot but slightly cooler than before. Trucks still warm as well.

Leads me to believe.....just HOW hot should the motors in our trains be getting? I certainly don't abuse mine, a 10 car train of Railking/Premier/Lionel/Weaver cars is a long train, one engine. I have one dummy diesel, WIlliams, which is very heavy. I guess I should take some weights out of it. I want to still be running the same trains in 20 or 40 years (God willing!), not replacing them as they fail.

Actually, a 10 car train shouldn't strain a single locomotive at all, that doesn't seem right!

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Actually, a 10 car train shouldn't strain a single locomotive at all, that doesn't seem right!

John, 

Appreciate your comments. I agree, a 10 car train shouldn't stress an engine, especially a dual motor loco. 

I wonder if we are so used to having motors be so inaccessible, we never notice how warm they get? I can understand maybe lukewarm after a long run session but blistering hot make me concerned. 

Every Williams loco I've had, with a few exceptions, has had this issue. My PS2 F3, which I recently had gutted and Williams True Blast Plus electronics put in, immediately ran hot right off of my tech's work bench. Never got this hot with PS2 boards, no high amps, nothing out of the ordinary. A long time MTH tech did an excellent job on the conversion. Leads me to believe something with the Williams boards. 

Granted, most of our modern stuff is a brutal PITA to take apart. Wiring, screws, lots of little parts. Still, I see nothing that would cause this. My layout does have 031 and 042 curves, tight but still....

To be honest, I never paid any attention to the temperature of my motors, until the problem with the WBB Berk that slowed to a halt after a few minutes. I put my fingers on the flywheel to see if it was binding and that was how I discovered the extreme temperature. As previously discussed, Bachmann repaired this one for me, it still gets plenty warm, but nowhere hear as hot as it got before. I have no idea how hot the GP9 gets, I never had any reason to check it. Ditto for my Lionel stuff.

After a career of working around electrical machinery, especially large motors and transformers (megawatt and up size range,) I will say without hesitation that laymen "overworry" the temperature issue; much equipment gets to the point of being extremely uncomfortable to touch long before it is in any danger. Even wires in a conduit, when fully loaded, can get too hot to touch and still be well within safe operating limits.

Just for giggles, I will pull out my WBB stuff and do some actual measurements on the flywheel temp after a good run. I can't imagine anything in a can motor being damaged by temperatures of say 100C, although my thumb will surely complain at that point! But, lets put some numbers on this discussion just for the heck of it.

100C?  Water BOILS at that temp.   Talk about a HOT model train!

PLCProf posted:

To be honest, I never paid any attention to the temperature of my motors, until the problem with the WBB Berk that slowed to a halt after a few minutes. I put my fingers on the flywheel to see if it was binding and that was how I discovered the extreme temperature. As previously discussed, Bachmann repaired this one for me, it still gets plenty warm, but nowhere hear as hot as it got before. I have no idea how hot the GP9 gets, I never had any reason to check it. Ditto for my Lionel stuff.

After a career of working around electrical machinery, especially large motors and transformers (megawatt and up size range,) I will say without hesitation that laymen "overworry" the temperature issue; much equipment gets to the point of being extremely uncomfortable to touch long before it is in any danger. Even wires in a conduit, when fully loaded, can get too hot to touch and still be well within safe operating limits.

Just for giggles, I will pull out my WBB stuff and do some actual measurements on the flywheel temp after a good run. I can't imagine anything in a can motor being damaged by temperatures of say 100C, although my thumb will surely complain at that point! But, lets put some numbers on this discussion just for the heck of it.

I'd be curious to read your findings. 

I'll have to see if I can get some measurements on temperatures on my MTH and Williams stuff and compare. 

OK-

Ran a WBB GP-9, cat number 21412 for quite a while to get a feel for the motor heating. Pulled a train of 11 cars, 4 lighted 60 foot passenger, 7 modern traditional-sized boxcars. By PW standards a heavy train; about the limit of what my good 2037 will pull on a level surface without slipping. Layout is Fastrack with 36 and 48 inch curves. Used a Z-1000 and went about as fast as possible without flying off the curves. Track voltage was about 10 volts. Subtracting the current taken by all the lights, the motor current was about 1.3 amps, split between two motors.

Results were unimpressive. After a steady 20 minute run, the measured temperature of the flywheel measured with a bead thermocouple was about 115 F, which is basically "cold" as far as electrical equipment goes. Felt warm to the touch, but bear in mind that a "Hot" shower is only about 105 degrees. The bridge rectifiers on the reversing board felt a bit warmer, but they cooled off so fast that I couldn't get a good temperature measurement.

Doesn't mean much, but now you know how my GP-9 runs. Later tonight I will try to do the same with the Berkshire.

Checked a sampling of new boxed diesel engines with dual can motors, some grease between motor shaft mounted worm gear and mating truck mounted gear also did not see grease on driving truck gear(s) and integral machined gear wheel on driven wheel axles, on a past forum someone referenced Lucas Oil Products #2 Red "N" Tacky grease in a 14 oz. cartridge for a standard hand pump grease gun I am going to grease all trucks Williams,Mth, Weaver, and Lionel engine with this grease. I recommend checking all trucks for lubrication, all gears that I saw were metalic not nylon. Grease obtained either from Advanced Auto or Auto Zone store about a year ago. 

The older diesel engines that I have 8 years or older which include Williams, Weaver and Mth have the Mabuchi RS-385PH can motor, if you do a web search for RS-385PH you will find this DC can motor on the Mabuchi website as a pdf file, note no shaft extension for the flywheel on this base motor specification. Motors must be specified as a speccial order with flywheel and specific elactrical operating required bt the train manufacturers.

Just ran the WBB 40505 Berk. Different story. Ran it for 20 minutes pulling the same train as the GP-9 at the same speed. Berk needed 13.5 volts and the motor current was about 1 amp. Temperatures were much higher, the shaft in the center of the flywheel was at 160F after 20 minutes, and I suspect it would have gone higher had I let it run longer. The motor did indeed smell "hot" after the 20 minute run. Of course, in this test the motor is doing twice the work of the dual motors in the GP-9!

I think someone said that the WBB used a Mabuchi RS-385PH motor. The Mabuchi web site does't have too much info, but it has enough to show me that, at the gear ratios used in these locos, the motor speed is way too low to realize any motor efficiency at all. Of course, it is a cost issue, to get a substantially higher gear ratio would require a double reduction gear set.

There is no real temperature rating info on the Mabuchi site; but the comparably sized Pittman motors have an insulation temperature rating of 135C, going up to 155C once you get three sizes above minimum. 135 C is 275F, but that is on the armature wire proper, and if I am getting the shaft, which is heat-sinked to the flywheel, up to 160 after 20 minutes I would guess that it is possible to exceed the temperature rating of the insulation in continued use. 

Tomorrow I will try the S-2, I never had any heat concerns with that one. I'll give it the same run. It has smaller drivers than the Berk so even if the gears are the same the results might be different.

Part of the problem is the gear ratios being used.  Can motors are happier running at higher RPMs.  But so many Williams locos (except the new 4-6-0) are geared tall just like an old Postwar loco.  Add a lot of die-cast metal for traction and some rubber tires and you're going to heat up that motor big-time. :-(

This is great information, nothing like an objective test.

I run W/WBB TM, SD45 and SD90 diesels with TMCC Conv.  I do not have heating issues.  But the power to the track is chopped AC.  Could this chop ahave an effect on the lack of heat in my case?

But, I have rused the above on a cub layout for up to an hour, no heat, trucks just warm to the touch.  However, the layouts did have a scale Hudson.  It did have heat issues.  But that notor is more inclosed 

Dominic Mazoch posted:

I run W/WBB TM, SD45 and SD90 diesels with TMCC Conv.  I do not have heating issues.  But the power to the track is chopped AC.  Could this chop ahave an effect on the lack of heat in my case?

But, I have rused the above on a cub layout for up to an hour, no heat, trucks just warm to the touch.  However, the layouts did have a scale Hudson.  It did have heat issues.  But that notor is more inclosed 

Well, I am not sure at this point, but I suspect that the diesels are fine because they are dual-motored, but the Hudson is not! 

My tests used a Z-1000, which is a chopped-wave controller. 

I had a chance to examine the Williams scale Hudson about 6 years ago.  The gear ratio was something like 9:1, which is frankly ridiculous.  Even the postwar 773 was geared at 18:1.  Four rubber tires caused a lot of drag around the sharp curves my friend had on his layout, so the loco slowed down.  The way these locos are made, there was no easy fix to improve the performance.  Also, using a chopped-wave transformer will definitely aggravate any heat issues.  I think it's a shelf queen now.

WOW!  9:1 gear ratio explains a lot!  Typically, I find most steamers geared in the 16:1 to 24:1 range, I don't recall ever seeing one at 9:1.  I find that Lionel or MTH diesels typically clock in around 10:1, and they have much smaller wheels as a rule, so that would be a similar motor load as the steamer.

For a diesel at a wheel diameter of 9/16 (measured on MTH diesel), and a gear ratio of 10:1, you move .177" for each motor rev.

For a scale Hudson steamer with a wheel diameter of 1 5/8" (measured on K-Line scale Hudson), and a 9:1 gear ratio, you'd move .567" for each motor rev, that's over three times as far for a single rev of the motor!  Small wonder they steamer motor gets hot!

gunrunnerjohn posted:

WOW!  9:1 gear ratio explains a lot!  Typically, I find most steamers geared in the 16:1 to 24:1 range, I don't recall ever seeing one at 9:1.  I find that Lionel or MTH diesels typically clock in around 10:1, and they have much smaller wheels as a rule, so that would be a similar motor load as the steamer.

For a diesel at a wheel diameter of 9/16 (measured on MTH diesel), and a gear ratio of 10:1, you move .177" for each motor rev.

For a scale Hudson steamer with a wheel diameter of 1 5/8" (measured on K-Line scale Hudson), and a 9:1 gear ratio, you'd move .567" for each motor rev, that's over three times as far for a single rev of the motor!  Small wonder they steamer motor gets hot!

 

Yup-

The WBB Berk and S-2 in my possession both have gear ratios of about 10.5 to 1. I haven't measured the driver diameters yet, but the S-2 is definitely smaller. It also weighs probably 1/2 what the Berk weighs, including the tender.

The Mabuchi/Pittman motor curves in this size range both show maximum efficiency around 7000 - 8000 rpm. So, at 7500 rpm on your scale Hudson, it would move .567 x 7500 = 4250 inches per minute, say 350 feet per minute. At 1:48 scale, that's about 16,500 feet/minute, or 193 scale miles per hour. That's fast, even by PW standards! So, the "happy point" for the motor is not within the safe operating area.....

The WBB locos in question are not scale sized, but the same principle applies, if less severely. I'll do some more measurements later tonight.

I think the big issue will probably end up being slow speed running with a heavy load.  You're running way off the peak efficiency point and needing a lot of torque.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

WOW!  9:1 gear ratio explains a lot!  Typically, I find most steamers geared in the 16:1 to 24:1 range, I don't recall ever seeing one at 9:1.  I find that Lionel or MTH diesels typically clock in around 10:1, and they have much smaller wheels as a rule, so that would be a similar motor load as the steamer.

For a diesel at a wheel diameter of 9/16 (measured on MTH diesel), and a gear ratio of 10:1, you move .177" for each motor rev.

For a scale Hudson steamer with a wheel diameter of 1 5/8" (measured on K-Line scale Hudson), and a 9:1 gear ratio, you'd move .567" for each motor rev, that's over three times as far for a single rev of the motor!  Small wonder they steamer motor gets hot!

 

Hello Gunrunnerjohn......

 Are you sure the MTH diesel wheels is at size .5625 Dia. (9/16") ?  That's pretty small size wheel for any diesel.  I have Williams F-3's and measured the wheels at .8965 Dia. or 22.77 MM Dia. using the 6 inch Digital calipers.  The Williams scale size bare bones Hudson doesn't use small 385PH motor but a much larger motor such as a 555PH.   There are larger Pittman motors that will easy fit in the cab of the Hudson with little work.   I do agree the gear ratio is wrong for the 385PH motors but I have the Williams F-3's ABA set which I put in 2 motor kits in the B unit and the second A unit.  I run the 3 powered units all the time and the 6 motors never get even lukewarm pulling the freight train. The 3 units have 12 traction tires and 24 wheel drive at 4 1/2 pounds (each unit) which can pull anything you wish with out worring about over heating problems.  Those Williams F-3's uses the 385PH motors too.

Tiffany

Let me go measure again, that seemed small, maybe my calipers slipped.

OOPS!   Missed a major grad on the calipers, 13/16 is the correct measurement for the wheel.  Even so, it's still much better than the steam example, at 10:1 it's .255" for each rev vs .567" for the Williams steamer.  That makes it a bit over 2:1 gear ratio advantage for the diesel, still very significant.  Add to that advantage that most of the diesels have two motors to share the load, the conclusion is still the same.

That also makes the typical steamer at say 18:1 more in line with the diesel gearing, thanks for pointing out the measurement error.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Let me go measure again, that seemed small, maybe my calipers slipped.

OOPS!   Missed a major grad on the calipers, 13/16 is the correct measurement for the wheel.  Even so, it's still much better than the steam example, at 10:1 it's .255" for each rev vs .567" for the Williams steamer.  That makes it a bit over 2:1 gear ratio advantage for the diesel, still very significant.  Add to that advantage that most of the diesels have two motors to share the load, the conclusion is still the same.

That also makes the typical steamer at say 18:1 more in line with the diesel gearing, thanks for pointing out the measurement error.

Hello gunrunnerjohn..........

What is the gear ratio of the Williams F-3's ?  No worries John, everybody makes mistakes even myself including !!!!!!!!! Smile.........

Tiffany

I really don't know the gear radio of the Williams, I'd assume it's similar to the Lionel and MTH at 10:1 given it's the same design vertical motor and worm gear.

I wanted to get back here to update on my MTH PS2 turned Williams True Blast Plus Railking F3 (Rugged Rails). 

My tech took out the Williams Reverse board and put in a Dallee reverse board. Motors are still the same ol' MTH motors from 2004 when this loco was new. Only the electronics  got replaced. Got it back today and did some testing. 

At 5 volts with a train of 6 MTH Railking cars (fast for this engine now that it has no cruse), on an 0-31 curve oval the shell was warm to the touch after about 20 minutes of operation. I did not take the shell off to feel the motors but the trucks felt warm. 

At about 7 volts, near rollover speed on my layout, with same train on same loop the shell was slightly warmer. About 25-30 minutes of running at same voltage setting. I did take the shell off. Motors and flywheels were too hot to touch, boards were also warm. After about 5 to 10 minutes, it was cool enough to comfortably touch and totally cool after 15 minutes. 

Does this sound normal? Too hot to touch varies from person to person but rough Google estimate shows that to be at about 115 - 125 degrees that PLCPROF feels is in the "normal" range. 

Anyone think my issue is not an issue and maybe I'm getting concerned over nothing with this engine? It doesn't feel as hot as it did with the Williams board. My tech ran it with several scale die-cast cars on a similar sized layout and reported all ran well and was well within temperature range. 

I'd get one of the little non-contact temperature sensors if you're really interested in temperatures.

I have something similar to this eBay: 201589812930, it works fine for such measurements.

SJC posted:

 

Does this sound normal? Too hot to touch varies from person to person but rough Google estimate shows that to be at about 115 - 125 degrees that PLCPROF feels is in the "normal" range. 

Anyone think my issue is not an issue and maybe I'm getting concerned over nothing with this engine? It doesn't feel as hot as it did with the Williams board. My tech ran it with several scale die-cast cars on a similar sized layout and reported all ran well and was well within temperature range. 

It doesn't sound normal to me but what your experiment indicates is its not the Williams E Unit that is the problem. If I was doing this experiment I would hook up a small ammeter to the motor and see what the motor itself is actually drawing and if it changes over time.

None of my pre Williams engine have an overheating problem and I have worked a few pretty hard.

Pete

Try another transformer and see if the situation changes. 

Choo Choo barn runs Williams engines all day long with no over heating issues. I own 6 williams engines and NEVER see any over heating issues in all the many years I have owned them. Electric motors and circuit boards produce heat, thats part of running them. I think you are making an issue out of nothing. Run your engines for hours at a time and if they don't burn down you have no issue.

Try oiling your passenger car axles and repeat the experiment.

I have a couple of pre-PS2 RailKing F3s.  These have twin RS-365SH motors geared at 10:5 to 1.  I wired the motors in series for better slow-speed control (which halves voltage and current draw.)  With up to 18V chopped wave on the rails, the OEM 12V headlight bulb melted the nose of the shell a little!  But the area over the motors shows no sign of melting.  Never tried to touch the motors after a run.

For the record this is one of the old, Korean-built compact F3s circa 1996 or '97.

I can't imagine why Williams can motors would overheat more than other brands, they're all very similar construction if not from the same manufacturer.

Maybe the motors are more efficient operating at constant 18 volts with command control. Or, in conventional mode, the motors may be more efficient on a chopped power supply.