Williams Peter Witt Zinc Rot

No issues with mine, granted I haven't really run it a ton but I've put maybe 2 hours total on mine since buying it at York in April, very well done little car. Very happy I bought it. Even more so this one seems to run cool and not overheat like many (but not all) of my other Williams locos.

No issues with the trucks but I remember the display model I saw at York, at the vender booth I purchased it, had a chunk out of the side frame missing. Didn't think much about it at the time. I've seen a photo or two from one of the dealers with a similar chunk missing (perhaps same dealer and car for their website, don't remember).

Interesting to hear that.  I hadn't heard mention of any zinc rot issues with these until I received mine.  I thought it was maybe just rough shipping broke the side frames, but I couldn't even operate the model because the truck bottom was so eaten away and crumbled.  I sent Bachmann a note about it when I ordered the new trucks to see if they had heard anything, but never got a reply.

You may be on your own. Bachmann is generally unresponsive to customer emails. I purchased an SD-70 last year. The True-Blast Plus sound card failed right away, and Bachmann wouldn't even respond.

I see a lot of zinc rot on repairs that come into the train store where I work. Mostly modern era production.  But every once in a while, I will see postwar Lionel castings that swell up with zinc pest and disintegrate.

Call Bachmann and wait on hold to talk with a tech.  Can't guarantee that they'll make it right, but they do eventually answer the phone.  When I had an issue on another WBB item, the tech was knowledgeable and helpful.

If no luck with Bachmann, contact Frank Vacek through the TCA directory.  He worked for Williams and has some castings.  I was able to get some FM side frames that failed due to zinc rot.

Thanks for the tips guys.

Like I said, I did get a pair of new trucks ordered from Bachmann and installed.  It's working correctly now, I was just curious as to how I had never heard of this being an issue with these until I took mine out of the box.

I have a lot of Williams freight cars and engines, most are pre-Bachmann and i have never had any problem with the truck assemblies.

However most of the new stuff, Bachmann included, is made in China and the standards for quality are very low.

Lee Fritz

I had a lionel GG1, JLC version where the trucks just crumbled.  Sad situation.  Not much you can do about it other than replace it and hope that replacement part doesn't crumble away also.

John Hon posted:

" Sad situation.  Not much you can do about...".

Yes, truly sad indeed. But which is sadder. That it's happening or the attitude of model railroaders, "that's the way it is today and nothing can be done about it"?

Obviously if we as a hobby have come to accept such flawed products from manufacturers that's likely what they'll continue providing. After all, no need for them to improve QC when their marketplace willingly accepts a lack of it! 

For info on the process:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_pest

Thanks for your input.  I've had some minor issues with the problem from other manufacturers, but this is a first from Williams (for me).

If you have any problem with a Bachmann item call them by phone, it gets the best results, talk with somebody, don't leave a message. Some of the email gets overlooked or not looked at.

Lee Fritz

Its a shame that the quality control has dropped to the point where we see this issue again in model trains.  Lionel and others figured this out decades ago. Dont see many postwar trains having zinc pest.  From my understanding, the amount of impurities in the metal are what determines if the casting does this or not.  Mike

artfull dodger posted:

Its a shame that the quality control has dropped to the point where we see this issue again in model trains.  Lionel and others figured this out decades ago. Dont see many postwar trains having zinc pest.  From my understanding, the amount of impurities in the metal are what determines if the casting does this or not.  Mike

It's not just the amount of impurities(that is very important too) in the metal but also how hot(what temperature) your metal gets up to. Also is the cleanliness of the metal vat and how clean the molds are that are being used. There are many factors about melting or smelting metals and allows, however cleanliness and temperature are 2 main factors.

FYI; my dad was a metallurgist with Carpenter Steel, so that is why I know a bit about metal work.

Lee Fritz

I pulled my Peter Witt off the shelf and put it on the layout last night. The other thread on MTH Zinc Pest made me curious about the items I had. I flipped my Williams Peter Witt over - the trucks are noticeably cracking. I don't think it will take long. The photos don't do the full justice here. I purchased this car brand new from Trainworld at York last April 2016. 

for what these things cost,the manufactures should address this asap,and offer to fix any,,in this day and age this is shameful

Just looked at mine. Front truck has nothing, but the rear truck is starting to look like the above pictures.

Should it not be covered by Bachman's warranty policy??

I bought a Bachman DCRU from a vendor w/o instructions and Bachman e-mailed me instructions within 24 hours with a nice note.  Good service to me.  

Gentlemen,

   Please do not refer to WBB as Williams cause the quality of Jerry's product was completely different, WBB is a completely different animal.

PCRR/Dave

Hey SJC,  I tried to private message but for some reason I wasn't allowed to.  Send me an email orders@trainworld.com attention Ken Jr.  with the williams item #.  Ill see what I can do. 

KenJrTW posted:

Hey SJC,  I tried to private message but for some reason I wasn't allowed to.  Send me an email orders@trainworld.com attention Ken Jr.  with the williams item #.  Ill see what I can do. 

Ken, 

Thank you. I just sent an email. 

Santafe,  Bachmann has their own forum called "Ask The Bachman."  Look for the Williams by Bachmann section. You might bring it up over there.   The Bachmann people do watch this and reply to ideas and problems.

http://www.bachmanntrains.com/...-usa/board/index.php

I need to get my Peter Witt out to check on it now!

Never had issues with Williams or WBB. I have six including a Peter Witt street car and all run great.

First, I am sorry this happened to you.

Second. I have a set of K-Line Chicago South Shore and South Bend inter-urbans. The rollers 'stick out' from the truck. They only work on loops with no switches. I can vouch that they short on K-Line O72 switches and Ross Rossplate switches. So I tried to figure out what was wrong with them, and concluded, gosh, if only they had rollers like such and such. And today, boom, there it is, rollers like such and such.

So it got me thinking, wonder if those trucks would work on the K-Lines; they attach with a simple C-Clip, if you have ever taken apart various postwar trains, like say a 3469 dump car, you will know this clip. And of course wires for power through a slot.

You can take the roller off the dummy unit and pull it around, but it looks pretty stupid that way, though to be honest, without an overhead catenary (spelling wrong), they look stupid anyways.

Note: these are the 18" ones, possibly made before 2000. There are also K-Line 15" ones that have clear windows made in 2005. Also on the K-Line website the 18" are missing. The railroad name might be goofed up.

I had the same problem with my WBB Peter Witt trolley. I ran this trolley all the time. Both the side frames and gearbox/wheel assemblies were deteriorating as shown in SJC's pictures. I contacted WBB and they did replace the the trucks and side frames. This is the trolley that I had referenced in my earlier post about the MTH P5a Box Cab casting issue.

Eric Hofberg

TCA, LCCA

chug posted:

I had the same problem with my WBB Peter Witt trolley. I ran this trolley all the time. Both the side frames and gearbox/wheel assemblies were deteriorating as shown in SJC's pictures. I contacted WBB and they did replace the the trucks and side frames. This is the trolley that I had referenced in my earlier post about the MTH P5a Box Cab casting issue.

Eric Hofberg

TCA, LCCA

 

Eric: How long ago did you replace the trucks? Any issues with the new ones?

The above pictures are basically identical to what mine probably would have looked like before it was shipped to me.  I doubt it took much shaking around in transit for the trucks to basically crumble apart.

So far the new truck frames work fine.  Unfortunately mine had a derailment on my Christmas layout during a show I wasn't present at and the plastic pieces of the trucks heated up and melted (apparently I need to put a circuit breaker on that track since the CW-80 didn't save it).  I haven't had a chance to exchange the guts from the old trucks into the new side frames though.

I've had enough hassles with Bachmann service and their warranty policies that I didn't even try to get free parts for this.  I bought it on eBay cheap and still finished out at a better price than they normally sell for after buying the parts.  Just based on the eBay thing I doubt they would have given me any warranty service since it wasn't a retailer.

ogaugeguy posted:

John Hon posted:

" Sad situation.  Not much you can do about...".

Yes, truly sad indeed. But which is sadder. That it's happening or the attitude of model railroaders, "that's the way it is today and nothing can be done about it"?

Obviously if we as a hobby have come to accept such flawed products from manufacturers that's likely what they'll continue providing. After all, no need for them to improve QC when their marketplace willingly accepts a lack of it! 

Good thing the model train inporters are not inporting high end ham radio rigs.  Kenwood, Icom, Yaesu,  and Alinco would be in a world of hurt if they had products like this.  Or did not have a back up plans for service.  

At least all of these do not have batteries which catch ��.

SJC,

The trucks were replaced approximately 1 1/2 years ago and no problems since.

Eric

Happy to find no zinc pest on my Cleveland Peter Witt trolley by Williams.  

My poor little WBB Peter Witt suffered an early demise. It never had a chance. Those poorly designed, wee little pickup rollers got jammed and derailed on every switch. After 10 or 12 derailments, it just went up in smoke as the tiny little hairline wires to the pickup rollers burnt up melting everything. So, it will be a shelf display for now, at least until it gets crumbled by zinc pest.

I've had two Witts sidelined with bad pickups since early December.  Didn't notice any zinc rot, tho. 

Hey SJC I never got an email from you can you resend it to orders@trainworld.com or allow me to send you a private message on the ogaugeforum

Thank you,

Ken Jr,

Peaceful greetings. I purchased a Williams/Bachmann Peter Witt Trolley about 4 years ago. I run it approximately 8 hours annually. The only issue I've had with it is that the PLASTIC gears will slip occasionally requiring me to tighten them. Other than that, it's fine.

KenJrTW posted:

Hey SJC I never got an email from you can you resend it to orders@trainworld.com or allow me to send you a private message on the ogaugeforum

Thank you,

Ken Jr,

Ken,

I sent an email to you shortly after your original post. Maybe it didn't make it through (I didn't get a error message upon sending). I will re-send now. Thanks again for your help.

I ordered a couple of these about 2 weeks ago. One came in nice shape but the Toronto one was pretty busted up. I sent it back to Train World and they sent me another within a week. Unfortunately that one was broken also but the axle housing part is intact. The outside truck detail is snapped off and the pieces are crumbly. Whether it was rough handling during shipping or the zinc contamination or both I don't know. Train World's price was half what these cost at the local train shop. I feel bad about complaining they were broke but what do you do? It's a brand new item. Hopefully I will get another good one eventually.

These streetcars are really nice looking and engineered so that the motor and drive lines are under the floorboards and the circuit board is hidden up in the roof. This makes room for the detailed interior. Nobody else makes these without mounting the motor in the middle of the cabin and putting cheap silhouettes of people in the windows to block the view of the interior. You got to give Bachmann credit for going the extra mile on these.

Check out the bottom of this page to see what some of your options are:

http://www.bachmanntrains.com/...p/topic,33288.0.html

Hey Conrail1975 please send me an email at orders@trainworld.com Attention Ken Jr with your order number and the item #.  Ill send you another one but I will have one of my guys inspect before we ship it again this way you dont get a bad one again.  Sorry for the inconvenience but well take care of it.

Definitely signs of Zinc Rot!

Thanks Ken I appreciate that.

I forwarded the email to your Attn. that I also sent to orders@trainworld.com on Saturday.

I had several cases of Zinc Rot on original Williams products especially side frames on diesels and a GG-1 made when Williams was doing the glossy finish, Also the side frames and fuel tanks on non gloss Williams era Pennsy FA. I had luck with Bachmann so far.

Wow!!! Some terrible pictures. The zinc rot problem may never go away as long as the the quality improvement process is ignored during manufacturing. You did the best thing by buying from a very reputable dealer that cares.

I don't have zinc rot problems with my Peter Witts.  I DO have problems with the pickup roller brackets overheating and melting after the cars have operated for a few hours...  Anyone else have this problem?  Lovely cars and good runners, otherwise.  

Mitch

Out here in the dry western plains zinc rot seems like an almost unknown problem. I get the impression that it is primarily a moist climate issue. Does that seem to be the case with those who have had issues? Even so, that does not explain the OP's case where the car in question was brand new in a sealed package, which presumably would have had one or two silica gel packs to absorb any moisture in the air. Just curious is all. 

Rod

PS: MMM; can you decode "It's crackers to give a rozzer the dropsy in snide!" please, just for those of use who have no clue what this might mean? Thanks.

The answer has been known since the 1930's which is Mazak or Zamak depending on whether you live in Europe or North America.

Bogie

 

PS: MMM; can you decode "It's crackers to give a rozzer the dropsy in snide!" please, just for those of use who have no clue what this might mean? Thanks.

It's an old MAD Magazine catchphrase from the 50s.  Translated, "It's a crazy idea to give a policeman a bribe using counterfeit money!"   

Mitch 

Conrail1975 posted:

I ordered a couple of these about 2 weeks ago. One came in nice shape but the Toronto one was pretty busted up. I sent it back to Train World and they sent me another within a week. Unfortunately that one was broken also but the axle housing part is intact. The outside truck detail is snapped off and the pieces are crumbly. Whether it was rough handling during shipping or the zinc contamination or both I don't know. Train World's price was half what these cost at the local train shop. I feel bad about complaining they were broke but what do you do? It's a brand new item. Hopefully I will get another good one eventually.

These streetcars are really nice looking and engineered so that the motor and drive lines are under the floorboards and the circuit board is hidden up in the roof. This makes room for the detailed interior. Nobody else makes these without mounting the motor in the middle of the cabin and putting cheap silhouettes of people in the windows to block the view of the interior. You got to give Bachmann credit for going the extra mile on these.

From your pictures, I can tell you that’s classic zinc rot. The blistering is a telltale sign.

While "NIB" how old is the actual streetcar? I have no idea when these were manufactured, and I suspect that zinc pest doesn't care that it's never been opened/handled. If it's going to rot, it's going to do it regardless of the circumstances of standard packaging. Thought this was an issue that wasn't an issue any longer. Guess not.

Plenty of discussion about zinc rot here on the forum. It was a problem in the past in American production, particularly before World War II, and it has been a problem in China over the past 25 years.

Once American companies figured out what was causing zinc castings to deteriorate, they tightened their quality control standards. For established train makers, the problem pretty much disappeared, even from production in Hong Kong, Germany, Austria, Italy, Japan and Korea over the years.

When production moved to China, zinc pest became a problem again, but not consistently. The sheer volume of products have exhibited no problems, but the number of examples of bad castings is nonetheless notable.

The problem in Chinese production is tied to the fact that many factories use subcontractors for certain part production, such as gear boxes and couplers. Many of those subcontractors are essentially garage production facilities, and as such their quality control is very inconsistent.

Hopefully, the factories will eventually weed out the subcontractors who cut corners, but American companies have to hold the factories accountable for that to happen.

M. Mitchell Marmel posted:

I don't have zinc rot problems with my Peter Witts.  I DO have problems with the pickup roller brackets overheating and melting after the cars have operated for a few hours...  Anyone else have this problem?  Lovely cars and good runners, otherwise.  

Mitch

Yes!  Mine had a meltdown after one evening of operation.  Of course this was after I replaced the trucks because of the zinc rot issue.  That happened over a year ago and it's still sitting on the shelf waiting for me to put the internals of the zinc rot trucks into the melted ones.  I'm glad I saved the parts.

Deuce posted:

While "NIB" how old is the actual streetcar? I have no idea when these were manufactured, and I suspect that zinc pest doesn't care that it's never been opened/handled. If it's going to rot, it's going to do it regardless of the circumstances of standard packaging. Thought this was an issue that wasn't an issue any longer. Guess not.

Mine was brand new in the sealed box and had the issue, though I'm unsure of how old it was.  Unfortunately I wasn't aware this was an issue with these and purchased it for a good price from an ebay seller who had purchased it at an estate sale.  After parts costs, I still came out cheaper than buying a new one from a dealer so I certainly couldn't complain.  It was just a little annoying to have to go through that process.

Rod Stewart posted:

Out here in the dry western plains zinc rot seems like an almost unknown problem. I get the impression that it is primarily a moist climate issue. Does that seem to be the case with those who have had issues? Even so, that does not explain the OP's case where the car in question was brand new in a sealed package, which presumably would have had one or two silica gel packs to absorb any moisture in the air. Just curious is all. 

Rod

PS: MMM; can you decode "It's crackers to give a rozzer the dropsy in snide!" please, just for those of use who have no clue what this might mean? Thanks.

While moisture can accelerate it, zinc rot is due to impurities getting into the castings during the manufacturing process and causing them to crumble over time.  The problem was more or less solved in the U.S. early on, but with lax quality control in China and elsewhere, it's occurring again.  

I believe the main zamac impurity is LEAD.

I got the replacement streetcar Friday. It's a good one. Thanks for taking care of everything. I'll remember to check Trainworld first when I'm looking for more stuff for our layout.

Just was checking out Bachmann webstore....looks like they have just made available replacement side trucks for Peter Witt trolley! They have a limit of 2 trucks (which is all I needed). Cost is 12.00 per truck and about 6.00 shipping. 

Side trucks?  Looks like the whole truck is involved in the rot, not just the side frames.

Do you have a link to what they have?

My bad..yes,part is listed as 'truck frame', part # PW-FRAME-01.  Sorry I am not familiar with posting links. The truck frames show up on the bottom of there Williams O parts/ locomotive selector screen; at the very bottom, under new parts for September. Hopefully these are the fix for my crumbling trucks; I have not looked at my Peter Witt in a very long time.

They do look like the parts, I guess you have to transplant all the guts of the existing truck.

Question:  Is there another metal or alloy to use other than zinc?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

They do look like the parts, I guess you have to transplant all the guts of the existing truck.

You can get the frame for $12.

https://estore.bachmanntrains....m34008q53voi1c8ej416

Or the assembly for $31.

https://estore.bachmanntrains....m34008q53voi1c8ej416

Funny - I was reading through this thread with interest and suddenly realized I own a Williams Peter Witt streetcar. Examining mine, it looks to be fine.

In addition to primarily Lionel items, I also collect Marklin from the 1950's to present and have never had zinc pest with their mostly German produced models.

Dorfan locomotives had notorious zink pest problems.  Not easy to find one completely

clean.

Lew Schneider

@Don Winslow posted:

Funny - I was reading through this thread with interest and suddenly realized I own a Williams Peter Witt streetcar. Examining mine, it looks to be fine.

I have one too.  When I looked at first, I thought one truck has a problem.  Turns out there's just machining or molding marks on the bottom, though the other truck is smooth.  However, it's solid as a rock.

@Dominic Mazoch posted:

Question:  Is there another metal or alloy to use other than zinc?

Yes, BRASS!  I suppose you could also use copper, aluminum, etc. -- anything that's pure.  I believe that "die-cast" is actually a mixture, a crystal lattice of Zinc, aluminum, and maybe a couple other trace metals.  I'm not sure there is any molecular bonding, so I hesitate to call it a compound.  Over time, and especially in the presence of moisture, any incompatible bonds break down the crystalline structure and the item crumbles, returning to dust.

My understanding is that it's not a question of if, but when.  As long as my trains last another 40-50 years, I don't care what happens after that because I'm pretty sure I'll be returning to dust myself!