Williams trains - scale size?

Generally NOT. Very few Williams pieces are scale sized. The ones off the top of my head are the brass steam engines from the late 1980's to early 1990's, the FA-1 Alco Diesel [warning truck side frames model friction bearing ends- a la RS1] and the PA-1 Alco diesel [warning Williams used F7 porthole windows for the sides and is difficult at best to correct] the RF15 sharks [windows maybe too tall], the BL2 and the GP7 is scale sized.. if you don"t mind the stamped steel frame and F-type fuel tank.

Plus, all Williams locomotives are conventional AC.

Rusty

Thanks - the prices seemed to indicate that

Some are.  Some are copies of old Lionel toy locos or old toy Kusans.  I think you need to approach it on a locomotive by locomotive basis.  For the money they are usually good buys.  The issue you may run into is even if they are scale sized they may lack some of the refinements you may have come to expect in recent years.

Williams’ boxcars are bigger than Lionel 6464 size, but smaller than scale. Approx. Railking sized. That’s the only rolling stock item with which I am familiar.

Anyone know about their SD45 engines? I see from photos that they are not very detailed, but are they full scale?

Thanks, Jim

The E7 engines that Williams produced a long time ago are supposed to be scale sized.  Lately,  Williams has produced some very nice diesels which look scale to me.  I only have the GP 30 but the also turned out a 44 ton engine which is much smaller than the previous over-sized ones that Lionel sold starting way back when and it is supposed to be scale sized.   The Williams GP30 looks nearly identical to Lionel's  (I have both) and it's hard to tell them apart from a distance.  Pretty sure it is also scale in size.   I think they did a nice job on the GP30, putting nice looking handrails on it which makes a huge difference. The RS3 that Williams sells might be scale, too, but I can't attest to that.

I think Williams offered a New York Central caboose, a PRR box car and a black tank car in scale size. Individual foam rubber cradles in their boxes.  As Bill stated, they did not have the details one might desire, but they were/are scale size.  John

The N&W "J" seems full size.  I have a brass Mikado that looks seriously undersize, but it is ever so slightly bigger than the Overland version.  And I believe the Challenger and Big Boy might be slightly undersize.

Agree on the caboose and tank car.  These were brass repros of the Lionel 700 series cars.   Williams did way better than MTH on the reproduction.

Might check out Weaver - I believe all of their offerings were full scale.

@CNJ Jim posted:

Anyone know about their SD45 engines? I see from photos that they are not very detailed, but are they full scale?

Thanks, Jim

The SD45 hood is WAY too wide.

Rusty

There is endless discussion of this on the forum. IIRC, my die-cast Hudson is scale size, but best described as "post-War" in detail level. It will certainly negotiate O36 curves, or O42 tinplate.

The loco will handle O27, but the tender won't and the cab overhang is pretty wild.

I believe there is a version with a "short" tender (like the Lionel or K Line semi-scale version) which would probably handle O31

@Rusty Traque posted:

The SD45 hood is WAY too wide.

Rusty

And that was done to accomodate the large fly-wheeless Mabuchi motors at that time. The mold is still the same.

Also the fuel tank is too squashed. For the money, the Railking scale version is your best buy.

Williams also offered a scale GG1.

Williams heavyweight baggage cars and MTH Premier baggage cars are the same size with the same details(rivets).  Side by side they look like twins or a clone.  John

Getting back to the OP's question: the old(er) Korean- built Pacific (#4949) appears to be "scale size". It's quite a bit larger than my All Nation Ten Wheeler, and with that Mabuchi #555 upgrade, runs almost as well! 😳 🙂

Mark in Oregon

@rattler21 posted:

Williams heavyweight baggage cars and MTH Premier baggage cars are the same size with the same details(rivets).  Side by side they look like twins or a clone.  John

That's because MTH bought the Williams dies.

Rusty

@rattler21 posted:

Rusty,  I never understood why hobbyists go gaga over MTH heavyweight passenger cars while they shun Williams heavyweight passenger cars.  A three dollar custom color can of paint from Home Depot will transform Williams cars to Pullman Green heavyweight passenger cars, all you need are decals.  John

Gee, let's see.  Start with full interiors, better detailing, and I don't have to paint them.

@rattler21 posted:

Williams heavyweight baggage cars and MTH Premier baggage cars are the same size with the same details(rivets).  Side by side they look like twins or a clone.  John

The Williams/MTH baggage car is based on the PRR B70.  Get the ones with the round windows in the doors and you have a scale B70 for your scale consist.

To answer the second part of the original poster's questions; I have upgraded several William's Locos with ERR Cruise Commanders and Railsounds. Probably among the easiest upgrades i've ever done.

I have a Williams Jersey Central Dummy F3 & to me measures slightly under scale. My curiosity got the best of me, since I own one, so I made a comparison from a couple of google screen grabs. See attached.

BTW, here are the Williams specs that claim it's scale. You decide.

Just a thought, compare a Lionel scale boxcar to an MTH scale boxcar and they are not identical.

Just my view of it, both with Williams and other things, but scale tends to have many meanings, it is in the eye of the beholder. To a rivet counter type scale means everything is scale, the details are the right size, in the right place, the item has the exact scale dimensions of the prototype (to the point in 2 rail that you have proto48, that uses the proper distance between the rails for 1/4" scale which standard O is not).

For others it means 'scale size', that it is very close if not spot on. So if you put a scale box car up against other scale equipment, it would look like it belonged there. I suspect a lot of the Williams Equipment is more scale size than 'true scale'.

For me, if you put a supposedly scale item up against something you are sure is scale and it doesn't seem to fit with it, then it is likely semi scale *shrug*..

@bob2 posted:

The N&W "J" seems full size.  I have a brass Mikado that looks seriously undersize, but it is ever so slightly bigger than the Overland version.  And I believe the Challenger and Big Boy might be slightly undersize.

Agree on the caboose and tank car.  These were brass repros of the Lionel 700 series cars.   Williams did way better than MTH on the reproduction.

Might check out Weaver - I believe all of their offerings were full scale.

Were you comparing the mikado to an Overland Heavy or Light mike?

This kind of came up a year or so ago: I was interested in a Korean-built Lionel PRR E-6. It's (still) listed on their website as "Traditional" size. I wondered if that meant "traditional" as in 027 size (like the Atlas Atlantic) or as in "Scale" size. I took a chance on it and it turned out to be full-on scale, 1:48. Nice engine. 🙂

Mark in Oregon