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I acquired some Atlas 3 position signals. I want to know is there a way to wire them so that if I set one at one of a long block, and the other at the end of that block, reguardless of which end a train enters the block, it will turn both signals red. I do not want to used isolated rails, as signals would be placed in front a double crossover at both ends of the block.

Thanks,

Ed

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Ed, I installed Atlas O Signals on my layout.  I used a couple isolated rails on short single track sections through switch areas.  Both signals will need to be hooked to the combined hop-scotched single track sections.

When one of the tracks is bridged, the signals will turn red.  The automatic timing in the signal will then turn yellow to green on both signals, once the engine or cars are out of the area.  Movement along the pathway of any single track isolated rails keeps the signal red, until the track section(s) are vacated.  Each signal should have its own board wired to the pattern of isolated rails.  (Two or three single isolated rail tracks will trigger the signal to red. You don't need a long stretch of track because the length of the train will continue bridging the connection for the signals.)   A slow moving single engine might have difficulty making it from one isolated rail to the next.  A train should not have this difficulty.

The hop-scotch pattern of isolated rails allows you to power both outside rails on non isolated track sections.  This will help Legacy Remote Signals reach your engines better, especially with Atlas O track.

The downside of this is that the remote daisy chaining of signals will not work with this section of track.  The daisy chain is good on a circle of track in one direction to speed up the changing of the red to yellow to green.  (This is for large layouts.)

Sincerely,  John Rowlen

Ed, I you do not want isolated rails, Lionel makes a motion detecting accessory. One at each end will trigger the signals.  The down side is that a slow moving train may not get out of the block before the accessory turns the blocks loose to go yellow to green.

Eric Segal did a video on Atlas O signals.  Youi may want to watch it.

Sincerely, John Rowlen,

John Rowlen posted:

Ed, I you do not want isolated rails, Lionel makes a motion detecting accessory. One at each end will trigger the signals.  The down side is that a slow moving train may not get out of the block before the accessory turns the blocks loose to go yellow to green.

Eric Segal did a video on Atlas O signals.  Youi may want to watch it.

Sincerely, John Rowlen,

John,

I would like to use something like the Lionel or MTH iPad. I tried using a DZ-1070 and 1075, but neither would even trigger the Atlas signal. Again my goal is to have the signals at each end of the block to change colors in unison. I did this with the DZ-1075 and DZ-1070 and a MTH signal bridge. But the electronics of the Atlas signals seem to not allow this type of setup.

Ed

 

Not clear what you have.  From the Atlas website, it appears their signal heads come with a modular phone plug that snaps into a circuit board hidden in a shed.  And the circuit board is looking for an insulated-rail trigger.  Is this what you have?  Model numbers if you know them would help.

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If this is what you have, then you can use two Lionel 153IR occupancy detectors (or two MTH ITADs), to provide the equivalent of an insulated-rail-trigger.  That is, the relay inside the 153IR could be configured to apply the outer-rail voltage via its "NO" terminal when triggered.  The two "NO" terminals could be tied together going into the signal electronics so either (or both) would activate the signal.

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stan2004 posted:

Not clear what you have.  From the Atlas website, it appears their signal heads come with a modular phone plug that snaps into a circuit board hidden in a shed.  And the circuit board is looking for an insulated-rail trigger.  Is this what you have?  Model numbers if you know them would help.

Untitled

If this is what you have, then you can use two Lionel 153IR occupancy detectors (or two MTH ITADs), to provide the equivalent of an insulated-rail-trigger.  That is, the relay inside the 153IR could be configured to apply the outer-rail voltage via its "NO" terminal when triggered.  The two "NO" terminals could be tied together going into the signal electronics so either (or both) would activate the signal.

Yes this is what I have. Tried tieing two signals together, the normally open (NO), to the DIN connection on  both siginals. One worked fine, the other stayed at a constant yellow.

 

 

Now I'm confused as to what you have.  You responded to a comment about hooking NO to "Rin".  I don't see "Rin" on the diagram I copied from Atlas.  

And exactly where is your "NO" signal coming from?  Do you have a 153IR or MTH ITAD hooked up?

Using the diagram I copied (with DIN), you should be able to power both signals leaving both DINs disconnected.  The signals should both be GREEN.  You should be able to take a piece of wire and momentarily touch an outer-rail to the DIN and both signals should turn to RED.   If you don't get this behavior, then using a 153IR or MTH ITAD will not change anything.

I again recommend you follow Atlas O instructions and create a series of short isolated rails through this section of track.  Hook the isolated rail to "din" on the board for each signal.

If using Atlas O track, it allows you to power both outside rails on sections between the isolated rail tracks.

I am using Legacy that is helped by a clear signal through the rails.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

stan2004 posted:

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Assuming you have an MTH Scaletrax ITAD as shown above.  Using the terminology of the Atlas diagram shown earlier, the "PWR" and "COM" connections from the train transformer must be as shown above; this may seem swapped/backwards but this is how to emulate the insulated-rail trigger method using an ITAD.

This method works fine when connecting to just one signal (NO to din #1 on switch 1). But if you connect switch 2 (din #2) to the same iPad, both signals turn red and never change. 

So simply connecting DIN #1 to DIN #2 is triggering both signals to turn RED.  

In which case this has nothing to do with using an ITAD or insulated-rail triggering.  It's a question of how to simultaneously trigger two (or more) Atlas signals "in parallel" so to speak.  More info is needed on how the DIN input works; it stands to reason this configuration was considered when the Atlas signal system was designed.

If no one comes forward with the "secret" to DIN operation, one brute-force option would be to have the ITAD(s) trigger a double-pole relay (about $10 for a DPDT relay module).  The double-poles would isolate the two DIN input when the signals are meant to be yellow/green...but then connect both DINs to the outer-rail when triggered.  Or, if in your quest, you come across the schematic of the board that sits in the shed perhaps the circuitry around the DIN input would suggest an even simpler method.

Last edited by stan2004
John Rowlen posted:

I again recommend you follow Atlas O instructions and create a series of short isolated rails through this section of track.  Hook the isolated rail to "din" on the board for each signal.

If using Atlas O track, it allows you to power both outside rails on sections between the isolated rail tracks.

I am using Legacy that is helped by a clear signal through the rails.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John,

My original post stated that I wanted to have two Atlas signals both turn red at the same time, regardless of which end of the block you entered from. So this is just one block with a signal at each end. The way that Atlas engineered these signals does not allow for this reguardless if itads or connecting to the insulated rail. Since there is only one block the two din connections are basically tied together, and the signals both go to red and will stay that way. The isolation of the rail does not come into play since both din connections go to the shared rail.

Ed

Last edited by ehkempf

Let me understand this.  If you connect the MTH ITAD 'NO' terminal to the Atlas signal DIN#1 the signal works like you want (Turns red, but after a while goes yellow then green.), correct?  If so place one ITAD and signal at each end of the stretch you want the signals to be and wire them up like that.  Now to tie them together so they trigger at the same time run one wire from the 'NO' terminal of the ITAD at one end to the 'NO' terminal of the ITAD at the other end.  In this way you are basically giving each signal the same dual trigger.

Do not run any wires between the Atlas signals.  You only run wires between the Atlas signals if you want one to control the other for sequential signaling, which is not what you want.

sinclair posted:

Let me understand this.  If you connect the MTH ITAD 'NO' terminal to the Atlas signal DIN#1 the signal works like you want (Turns red, but after a while goes yellow then green.), correct?  If so place one ITAD and signal at each end of the stretch you want the signals to be and wire them up like that.  Now to tie them together so they trigger at the same time run one wire from the 'NO' terminal of the ITAD at one end to the 'NO' terminal of the ITAD at the other end.  In this way you are basically giving each signal the same dual trigger.

Do not run any wires between the Atlas signals.  You only run wires between the Atlas signals if you want one to control the other for sequential signaling, which is not what you want.

 

ehkempf posted:
sinclair posted:

Let me understand this.  If you connect the MTH ITAD 'NO' terminal to the Atlas signal DIN#1 the signal works like you want (Turns red, but after a while goes yellow then green.), correct?  If so place one ITAD and signal at each end of the stretch you want the signals to be and wire them up like that.  Now to tie them together so they trigger at the same time run one wire from the 'NO' terminal of the ITAD at one end to the 'NO' terminal of the ITAD at the other end.  In this way you are basically giving each signal the same dual trigger.

Do not run any wires between the Atlas signals.  You only run wires between the Atlas signals if you want one to control the other for sequential signaling, which is not what you want.

 

If you connect like you suggest, with out tying the two ITAD's together via the NO connection each signal will operate correctly, but will be totally independent. If you now connect the two ITAD's together via the NO connection you are also connecting the two Atlas DIN connections together since they connect to the NO connection. Once the two DIN connections are tied together both signals turn red and stay that way and do "NOT" turn back to yellow or green.  

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