Wiring lionel postwar accessories to 90 push buttons (doorbell buttons)

Lots of information in here:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...sories%20%201954.pdf

The 145 is on Page 15:

The 494 can be wired in Parallel as shown on page 13

Insulated Track Activators, including a 145 example, is discussed on pages 37 & 38

There is so much more within the link...

Joe,

If you'd like I can email you the wiring schematic from my Lionel D-105 layout. I have a ZW and a boat load of accessories, most of which are controlled by switches, mostly 364c's and also a few 90s. Uses a standard hot and common bus wiring arrangement.

johnstrains posted:

Joe,

If you'd like I can email you the wiring schematic from my Lionel D-105 layout. I have a ZW and a boat load of accessories, most of which are controlled by switches, mostly 364c's and also a few 90s. Uses a standard hot and common bus wiring arrangement.

Yes that'd be great! Thank you! Email is in my profile.

364c? Is that the slide on/off switch? Had to think about what went with the log ramp.

The gateman can be wired to an insulated track section. The beacon could just be hard wired directly to the power supply, or you could put an on/off switch in line with it.

Most accessories have pretty basic wiring using an on/off switch. There are a few more complicated pieces like signals with red and green lights or track activated devices.

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

364c? Is that the slide on/off switch? Had to think about what went with the log ramp.

The gateman can be wired to an insulated track section. The beacon could just be hard wired directly to the power supply, or you could put an on/off switch in line with it.

Most accessories have pretty basic wiring using an on/off switch. There are a few more complicated pieces like signals with red and green lights or track activated devices.

Yep, that's the black slide switch. I have several on my PW layout as I like the classic look.

Agree, the wiring is pretty basic. For what Joe is looking for it's basically power (+) bus out to the switch, switch to one accessory terminal and common (-) from other accessory terminal back to the common bus.

Here's an old pic when I was finishing my control panel. You can see that I don't even have the wiring coming from ZW yet.

Either the push button or switch is fine honestly. Just as the layout I plan on building will have a lot of switching involved I'd rather be able to activate accessories myself. Signals and such would be fine with insulated track.

bmoran4 posted:

Lots of information in here:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...sories%20%201954.pdf

The 145 is on Page 15:

The 494 can be wired in Parallel as shown on page 13

Insulated Track Activators, including a 145 example, is discussed on pages 37 & 38

 

There is so much more within the link...

@Bmoran4 I couldn't get your link to work, please check it.

These days, the old pressure plate contactors have fallen out of favor, especially the 145c which can easily be swapped out in favor of the insulated rail method. Most people substitute a relay for the for the 153c which acts like an SPDT switch. The insulated rail can drive the relay, for red and green lights on track signals like the 153, 450 etc. Then there's the 154c to activate the flashing lights of the crossing signal. It just clips onto the ground rail and has two insulated segments to create the flashing effect as the train goes by. But if you don't use classic tubular track, you need to either "fake it" or, go electronic for a much cleaner look. Then you can just an insulated rail to trigger the the circuit board.

If you don't know how to make an insulated rail section, it's pretty easy for some brands of track. Others less so. Just last week I talked a member through the process without a single drawing, and he got it. You can read it here.

As a kid I never understood this stuff, and my dad was little help. Changing a light bulb was more his speed. There was no forum in the 60's.

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

bmoran4 posted:

Lots of information in here:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...sories%20%201954.pdf

The 145 is on Page 15:

The 494 can be wired in Parallel as shown on page 13

Insulated Track Activators, including a 145 example, is discussed on pages 37 & 38

 

There is so much more within the link...

@Bmoran4 I couldn't get your link to work, please check it.

These days, the old pressure plate contactors have fallen out of favor, especially the 145c which can easily be swapped out in favor of the insulated rail method. Most people substitute a relay for the for the 153c which acts like an SPDT switch. The insulated rail can drive the relay, for red and green lights on track signals like the 153, 450 etc. Then there's the 154c to activate the flashing lights of the crossing signal. It just clips onto the ground rail and has two insulated segments to create the flashing effect as the train goes by. But if you don't use classic tubular track, you need to either "fake it" or, go electronic for a much cleaner look. Then you can just an insulated rail to trigger the the circuit board.

If you don't know how to make an insulated rail section, it's pretty easy for some brands of track. Others less so. Just last week I talked a member through the process without a single drawing, and he got it. You can read it here.

As a kid I never understood this stuff, and my dad was little help. Changing a light bulb was more his speed. There was no forum in the 60's.

Original link works for me - goes straight to a PDF download.

In addition, I've added it as an attachment here to this post.

Thanks, that got it. Mine is from the mid sixties, black white and orange cover with the oval logo. Pretty much the same on the inside, vertical format. Loved that book!

I forgot how early 1954 was. There were a number of things that hadn't been made yet. My problem in the 60's was you couldn't get most of the really cool ones anymore. That book was such a tease.

RE: Insulated track sections. Ain't it the truth.

Somebody just mentioned on another thread recently how this "old technology" is still in use and works great today. I have 7-8 sections on my PW layout and they work without fail. I always solder the wire right to the insulated side for a solid connection.

Can be done with different track brands but works so easily with good old tin track.

Actually, any brand of track that doesn't have the outside rails electrically connected is easy to work with. GarGraves, Ross, Atlas, and MTH Scaletrax are easiest, just cut gaps because they are already insulated with wood or plastic ties. You still have to work a little to create the insulated section with with classic tin. Fastrack they'll sell it to you already made or you can make your own. I'm guessing that MTH Realtrax is similar to Fastrack in that regard.

When I was doing train shows with my portable layout, I used lots of insulated sections to trigger relays with a timing circuit to do all kinds of cool automated train control, or throw track switches. The timing circuit smoothed out any signal imperfections, and stopped relay chatter.

For hobbyists who are DIY-adverse, Lionel offers a factory-made insulated O-gauge tubular track section: 6-12840. One of its outside rails is insulated and the opposite outside rail includes plastic track pins. The FasTrack line offers that item also.

Mike Mottler    LCCA 12394
mottlerm@gmail.com

RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:

johnstrains posted:

Joe,

If you'd like I can email you the wiring schematic from my Lionel D-105 layout. I have a ZW and a boat load of accessories, most of which are controlled by switches, mostly 364c's and also a few 90s. Uses a standard hot and common bus wiring arrangement.

Yes that'd be great! Thank you! Email is in my profile.

Joe, Let me put my hands on it and I'll scan it so I can send it attached to an email. Probably be tomorrow.  

Mike H Mottler posted:

For hobbyists who are DIY-adverse, Lionel offers a factory-made insulated O-gauge tubular track section: 6-12840. One of its outside rails is insulated and the opposite outside rail includes plastic track pins...

I'm hoping Lionel actually made these correctly with the insulating pins in the insulated outside rail.

johnstrains posted:

RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:

johnstrains posted:

Joe,

If you'd like I can email you the wiring schematic from my Lionel D-105 layout. I have a ZW and a boat load of accessories, most of which are controlled by switches, mostly 364c's and also a few 90s. Uses a standard hot and common bus wiring arrangement.

Yes that'd be great! Thank you! Email is in my profile.

Joe, Let me put my hands on it and I'll scan it so I can send it attached to an email. Probably be tomorrow.  

No problem, thanks again!

For the main buss I was going to use 12 or 14 gauge wire. Not sure the best gauge for the separate accessory buss however. Anyone got recommendations?

14 gauge is enough, unless your runs are really long, like over 100'. Max output of a ZW won't exceed 15 amps anyway.

It's also never a bad idea to have a fuse or circuit breaker for each accessory or a small group of them. Your ZW breaker is rated for the max output. On the other hand, it isn't usually accessories that short circuit. Most of those are train derailments, that pop the ZW main.

I also use to have a 5121/5122 switch set up to throw the next switch I need thrown in series so the layout controlled itself. 

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

14 gauge is enough, unless your runs are really long, like over 100'. Max output of a ZW won't exceed 15 amps anyway.

It's also never a bad idea to have a fuse or circuit breaker for each accessory or a small group of them. Your ZW breaker is rated for the max output. On the other hand, it isn't usually accessories that short circuit. Most of those are train derailments, that pop the ZW main.

I'm not sure if I mentioned but I'm using separate transformers. A Z4000 for the track and a ZW for the accessories. Separate buss lines are a must in this case. ZW will only be powering lighted accessories and some motorized ones along with the auto gateman, icing station, etc. What gets me is when I have the ZW buss hooked up with one wire to the gateman and the other two gateman wires going to the two connections to the track which is powered by the Z4000. Will that be a problem cause it seems like it would be.

Idk how I can fix issues like that. And other common issues like the 450 signal bridge. Worst case scenario I'm already having the buss for the track and as long as power is being distributed I could just wire the signals to the track buss.

With multiple power sources like your Z4000 and ZW, you need to use "common ground" wiring scheme with your transformers in phase. That will allow you still to utilize insulated sections to activate your accessories as you desire.

There is much material around for you to consume:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...String=common+ground

Greenberg's Wiring Your Lionel Layout: A Primer for Lionel Train Enthusiasts is another good resource.

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

14 gauge is enough, unless your runs are really long, like over 100'. Max output of a ZW won't exceed 15 amps anyway.

It's also never a bad idea to have a fuse or circuit breaker for each accessory or a small group of them. Your ZW breaker is rated for the max output. On the other hand, it isn't usually accessories that short circuit. Most of those are train derailments, that pop the ZW main.

Thanks, would you recommend I use 14 gauge for the whole thing? What size wires should I use for accessories?

bmoran4 posted:

With multiple power sources like your Z4000 and ZW, you need to use "common ground" wiring scheme with your transformers in phase. That will allow you still to utilize insulated sections to activate your accessories as you desire.

There is much material around for you to consume:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...String=common+ground

Greenberg's Wiring Your Lionel Layout: A Primer for Lionel Train Enthusiasts is another good resource.

That seems a bit hard. It will be a medium sized layout I'll bet the Z4000 can handle the entire layout with one handle for accessories and the other for track power.

OK, so you have the two transformers, a postwar ZW and a modern Z4000. You want to have a common ground between them. The Z4000 plug should be a modern polarized one with a wide prong and a narrow one. The trick is to match the ZW to it. An easy test is just connect a wire to the ground post of both transformers. With the power on, just quick touch the wires. Spark means out of phase. Just flip the ZW plug over, and double check it. You should get no spark. Mark the ZW plug for which way it should be. 

Now that you've done that you'll need to be a little careful with the grounds. The ground is the return path for electrons. The flow of electrons past a given point is current, which is measured in Amps. You need to size your wire according to the potential maximum Amps to be handled. By combining the two transformers, you've created the possibility of overloading a segment of the ground wire. Maybe the best way to prevent trouble is just not to have any connections between the two grounds out in the field. A single connection close to the source is all you should have. Remember too much current in an undersized wire is a potential fire hazard. Make sure that you have properly sized fuses or circuit breakers to protect the wire.

14 gauge wire is good for up to 15 Amps. Much smaller wires can be used to go out to the actual accessories. Different accessories use different amounts of current. !8 gauge should be enough for those runs.

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

OK, so you have the two transformers, a postwar ZW and a modern Z4000. You want to have a common ground between them. The Z4000 plug should be a modern polarized one with a wide prong and a narrow one. The trick is to match the ZW to it. An easy test is just connect a wire to the ground post of both transformers. With the power on, just quick touch the wires. Spark means out of phase. Just flip the ZW plug over, and double check it. You should get no spark. Mark the ZW plug for which way it should be. 

Now that you've done that you'll need to be a little careful with the grounds. The ground is the return path for electrons. The flow of electrons past a given point is current, which is measured in Amps. You need to size your wire according to the potential maximum Amps to be handled. By combining the two transformers, you've created the possibility of overloading a segment of the ground wire. Maybe the best way to prevent trouble is just not to have any connections between the two grounds out in the field. A single connection close to the source is all you should have. Remember too much current in an undersized wire is a potential fire hazard. Make sure that you have properly sized fuses or circuit breakers to protect the wire.

14 gauge wire is good for up to 15 Amps. Much smaller wires can be used to go out to the actual accessories. Different accessories use different amounts of current. !8 gauge should be enough for those runs.

I think an easier option for me (considering my wiring skills are still mediocre) is that I can have two busses that won't connect to each other at all. ZW will power lighted accessories and any others that won't interact with the tracks. Meanwhile any accessory that needs to have access to the track like anything with insulated track can just connect to my main buss line. The idea here is that only accessories such as signals will be hooked up with insulated tracks as others such as the gateman will be push button activated.

That's a really good option, just avoid any complications. That should work just fine.