Wiring question for a newby electronics guy

You'll be fine at 50'.  You'll get arguments for and against for 16 gauge vs 18 gauge but either will work on that size layout.  There's nothing wrong with 12 gauge but that's overkill.

If you are wiring for DCS you should wire using a Star pattern vs a bus wire.

I recently got a whole bunch off of Amazon - Southwire sells wire in multiple colors:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/prod...00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

-Greg

Different gauges will not be a problem, but 18 gauge is close to pushing the limit for a bus wire. I would make sure that wire does not feel warm after you are up and running.

Also, make sure you are using all copper stranded wire - not anything like or that says copper clad aluminum ("CCA").

Fyi - from the expert himself.  If you are not using DCS, do this:

If using DCS, post back and while you should be fine using a bus wire on that size layout you should ideally do something different.

-Greg

I'd be one that says don't use 18GA for a 50 foot run!  I assumed a 5A load, and you lose over three volts in the run, over 17% of the voltage.

That same run with #14 is much more manageable.

John doesn't need my backing but I'll be the second EE telling you to check your wire recommendation. There are also charts out there on ampacity of wire. I don't think 12 gauge wire for a 50 foot run is over kill at all.

Steve, are you sure you really have 50' runs?

Let me add my voice to those that are telling you that 18 gauge wire is too small for the current loads it will be carrying. The absolute minimum track power feeder size should be 16 gauge, and even a size larger (14 gauge) if you can work with it.

A bit of first-hand experience:
I was shooting video on a large layout for one of the OGR Great Layout Adventures videos. The layout owner had double headed a couple of steam locomotives for this particular shot. We shot the scene once, but I didn't like what I had done with the camera, so we backed the train into position for take two. I started rolling video; the owner started the train moving; and suddenly smoke started coming up from the bottom of the layout...a LOT of smoke!  We instantly shut everything down to investigate. It turned out that the track feeder for this section of the track was 18 gauge wire. The insulation on this wire was burned to a crisp over a length of almost 15 feet! However, the wire was still carrying current and the train was still running fine when this happened. The wire had to light up like a light bulb filament to get this hot so fast. If this wire had been positioned any closer to surrounding layout materials, it would have started a fire.

If there was ever place NOT to skimp when building a layout, it is on wire size. Use 14 or 16 gauge for track feeders, but never 18 gauge. It's just too small.

@turkey_hollow_rr posted:

Steve, are you sure you really have 50' runs?

Now I'm thinking I misread the OP.  I took it as he had 50' of track not a 50' length of wire (ie: an around the room layout that's 50' on each side).  If so, my apologies.

-Greg

My runs are only thirty feet from the transformer and I went with 14 gauge solid wire and I use 18 gauge feeders to the track every several feet.  I did not want any voltage drops.  No slowing trains like what I had on my childhood layout.

We haven't answered Steve's question on where to find wire. I'm sure there are several good places out there. One I've been using is Del City

Being a bit frugal early on my 14 g 50 foot outdoor extension cord with a failed outer wrap provided three 50 foot runs, black, white and green. 

Thanks for all the advice, i have a layout that is roughly 16' x 16' but in the shape of an "L" and the bus wires run the entire distance in four loops

the outside (main) bus is 18 gauge (that was the first one i did) but then the inner loops are 16 and now 12 gauge -- the track loops have breaks in them

so it sounds like i should have used 12 or 16 gauge wire all around, but since i have already installed the 18 gauge, with feeders around the track, and the wire does not get hot, i think that i am ok?  at most i would run two engines lashed up on a particular loop at a time

thanks for all your advice

steve

Read my post again. Only two locomotives and no lighted passenger cars were enough to burn the long run of 18 gauge track feeder wire!

For your long track feeds, you really should use larger wire.

Got my 14 AWG from Home Depot, got my 18 AWG from work.

I bought my #14 from HD as well, they had the best price at the time.  It does go surprisingly fast as you wire...

I would change your outside main bus to #14. If you already have soldered #18 wire to your track, you can cut each of these feeders to just a few inches and connect/solder them to your main #14 bus.

I've been reading this and want to say thank you, and this is relevant to my new layout I am preparing to build.   Since the thread is already asking -I'd like to expand on the topic as I'm sure the answers will benefit the OP.  

I have 2 loops I am preparing to build, basically its 60 feet for the circle for the bus wire for each loop.   I'm going to go with 14ga as suggested (for each loop).  

1.   Do the feeders going up to the track need to be 14 also, or can these drop down to 16,18, etc?   I'm guessing they will only be 8-10" long each, right?

2.   Can this be solid copper, or does it need to be stranded?   Does it matter and why?  It seems I heard somebody say it does...

3.   The wires running from transformers to switches (separate from track power) I thought were lower voltage and are daisy chained, right?   I have around 12-14 switches planned.   What is the gauge to use there?   I"m was thinking since switches are low voltage/amps I thought 18 or 20?  

Thoughts from the darn smart EE people!   Build it once, build it right.

Thanks!

You can use smaller feeders, I used #18 for mine and #14 for the long runs.  Solid or stranded will make no difference.  I find stranded a lot easier to deal with when wiring.  Heed the warning about pure copper vs CCA (Copper Clad Aluminum).  CCA is junk, don't fall for that!

The size of the switch wiring will depend on the switch machines in use.  For Fastrack, #24 is sufficient, for Lionel tubular track switches, I'd probably recommend #18, those draw a lot more current when they switch.

Here is what Lionel says about wire:

"Wire comes in many sizes in solid and stranded varieties. Stranded wire is really a bundle of smaller diameter wires wound together. Wire size is indicated by a number – the larger the number, the smaller the wire. Most house wiring in No. 12, solid wire. For your layout, we recommend a No. 16 stranded bus wire with No. 18 feeders. The feeders do not have to be as large because they are not as long and it is easier to attach the smaller wire to the tracks. Stranded wire offers better electrical flow (electricity flows around a wire, not through it) and it is easier to bend. We recommend adding feeders at least every 10 to 20 feet around the track."

FWIW, my personal preferences are:

14 gauge mains

16-18 gauge feeders, depending on what I have hanging around

Stranded pure copper wire throughout

Feeder every 4-8 track sections, depending on the length of the track in each section

Star wiring using MTH 12-24 port terminal blocks if wiring for DCS or potential DCS usage

2 port terminal blocks for connecting mains to feeders if using star wiring - suitcase or Wago style connectors for bus wiring

Thanks Richie, exactly what I was looking for.   Anything specific about suitcase or Wago connectors?   I'll go Google, just thought you may already know.  Where to buy, best size, brand, etc...  

Wiring to the 12 Ross switches?  

Wago connectors are infinitely better than suitcase connectors. Worth the extra costs hands down!

Here is an assortment: https://www.amazon.com/Wago-22...rtment/dp/B01GVTVY12

Just be sure to get real Wago ones and not the off brand knock-off lever nuts as the knockoffs do not meet UL or other safety standards and are of inconsistent quality. That is not to say that one may not find that certain knockoffs are just fine for this low voltage purpose, but I can't justify taking the chance after getting burned.

Another option for wire taps and connectors.  I bought a bunch bulk off of Amazon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93JYQc1bG20

-Greg

Wiring to switch machines always depends on how much power the switch machine needs to operate properly.  Ross does not manufacture switch machines.  I would suggest you look at the switch machine manufacturer's website and use the wire size they recommend.

Chuck

I used the Lever Nuts from Amazon, I used the 3-position and 5-position ones.  They worked really well and were very quick to make connections.  Re-configuring was a breeze as well when I changed something.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/prod...tle?ie=UTF8&th=1

https://www.amazon.com/gp/prod...le?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Thanks fellas.  I'm making my list, checking it twice!   Follow my build thread, I'll post updates there when I make mild accomplishments.   I'll keep hounding you guys on the dedicated threads for specifics.   Thanks!

Ross Switches come with either dz1000 or dz2500 if you get them to do it. From what I can tell it is pretty thin wire, the dz1008 relay that plugs in has wire on it and it is pretty thin. I'll likely use 18 ga for the switch machine wiring, especially for the run back to the controller.

I'm using #23 wire in CAT6 Ethernet cable for home runs from all the DZ-2500 switches, it's working fine.  The longest switch control wire run is probably about 20-25 feet back to the panel.  Truthfully, I don't see any burning reason for something as heavy as #18 from the DZ-2500.

GRJ, thanks, you probably just saved me some grief. I am going to be using DZ1000, but I doubt that has much more current draw then the 2500. They had a surplus spool of Cat6 at a habitat for humanity store I could have gotten cheap, ah, well.

Great information here and answers some of the issues I have experienced. However one question that has me stumped, and basic one so I apologize, is the buss wire. Where does the buss wire start and terminate? does it start directly from the transformer, i.e Z400, one hot and one ground wire? Or wire from the transformer to a block, i.e MTH 1014,? I know it goes around the layout (mine is 12 X8)  with drops from the tracks every few feet. But where do the main buss wire terminate? At the terminal block? Or at the transformer?  I cannot locate this information? At least I am not able to locate it.

Thank you all

@Steven posted:

However one question that has me stumped, and basic one so I apologize, is the buss wire. Where does the buss wire start and terminate? does it start directly from the transformer, i.e Z400, one hot and one ground wire? Or wire from the transformer to a block, i.e MTH 1014,? I know it goes around the layout (mine is 12 X8)  with drops from the tracks every few feet. But where do the main buss wire terminate? At the terminal block? Or at the transformer?  I cannot locate this information? At least I am not able to locate it.

Steve, keep in mind that any bus has to be adjusted based on the type of running, conventional, TMCC/Legacy, DCS, all of the above, etc.

For conventional, you'll typically have power drops to allow you to control individual loops and/or tracks from a transformer handle.  For command running, you'll likely have power districts to divide the load across more than one transformer output.

For TMCC/Legacy (and not DCS), a bus configuration is suitable, the drop runs directly from the transformer and around under all the track that will be controlled by that transformer drop.  My advice is to run both center and outside rails for any bus connection, don't try to use one common with multiple hots.

For DCS (works also for TMCC/Legacy), you will want a star wiring scheme for best results.  That means a run from the transformer typically goes to a terminal block somewhat centrally located for the track(s) being powered from that run.  Then individual runs go from that terminal block directly to the individual track drops.

gunrunnerjohn

Thank you for the response. I am running conventional (my DCS attempt was a failure but my fault).

Anyway, if I understand what you wrote, the buss wire starts at the transformer and runs around the layout with power drops, ec. But what I am still missing, and sorry for this, is where the do the bus wires end? Back at the transformer? In my mind there has to be a loop connecting somewhere. And yes, electrically challenged as the questions appear.

TY !!!!!

NO, the bus wires end at where ever you run out of track, that can be anywhere.  The individual bus wires don't have to be a "loop", because the circuit in question is between the center rail and the outside rails.  Any current in the circuit flows through the locomotive, lighted cars, etc. that are on the tracks.

If that weren't the case, you couldn't connect a piece of track on a bench to a transformer and have something power up and run on that track.

Rich,

Wow, that is a scary burned wire story.

I used 18 gauge power feed wire on my layout, with a set of power wires on every 5 feet of track.   I did not run a bus wire.  Both the hot and common wires running to each piece of track are separate runs of wire, coming off a distribution block which is one foot from the transformer.  The wires from the transformer to the distribution block are 12 gauge.

I guess the longest run of the twin wires to a track section are about 9 feet.

I have run two large engines, and lighted cabooses, on my layout every day for 14 months.  I've never had any of the wires get hot or burn.

So, maybe the problem with 18 gauge wire is on really long runs?  Or, using it as a bus line for multiple power hook-ups?

Thanks,

Mannyrock55

John, I trust your experience, those orange levernuts don't seem to be UL rated, any thoughts on safety?   Should I stick to the UL rated Wago brand?   I also didn't see an amp rating on them?   Thanks.

I am now also seeing several different brands...

I'm not going to get worked up over them not having a UL rating, remember that the Lionel ZW-L doesn't have a UL rating.   How about all the post-war transformers in constant use on layouts all over the country, they'd never pass a UL ratings check?  Is your track UL rated?

This is the connector on Amazon that I used, note the PCT-213 part #.

I happened across the actual specifications on another site for the same PCT-213 Connector.

I think these are more than sufficient for the task.

You have way more experience than me, note taken, thanks!  

@Steven posted:

gunrunnerjohn

Thank you for the response. I am running conventional (my DCS attempt was a failure but my fault).

Anyway, if I understand what you wrote, the buss wire starts at the transformer and runs around the layout with power drops, ec. But what I am still missing, and sorry for this, is where the do the bus wires end? Back at the transformer? In my mind there has to be a loop connecting somewhere. And yes, electrically challenged as the questions appear.

TY !!!!!

Household circuits are basically a buss, in the sense that the hot,neutral and ground wire terminate at the last device on it ( meaning outlet, light fixture,etc.) Household wiring starts at the breaker box and does not loop back to the origination point.

gunrunnerjohn

Thank you for clarifying for me !!!!! I did not take in account that the track will be passing the power around the layout (I know duh !!!).

With this I can proceed. Thank you again and to the others who responded as well !!

As long as we are talking wire... I'm seeing "single conductor copper stranded wire" on amazon.   I thought stranded was multiple little wires and that is what it shows in the pic, but what is single conductor?   I just want to buy the right wire and I'm looking online right now and don't want to buy junk.   Do I need THHN?  Should it say that?

https://www.amazon.com/Southwi...&s=hi&sr=1-3

Oddly is says single strand but the pic shows different...  IS there a reason some call it Primary Wire?

A link would be useful so we could see what you're talking about.

Truthfully, as a rule, the wire on Amazon may not be the best quality.  I bought THNN wire from Home Depot, at the time it was like $44 for 500 feet of # 12 pure copper wire.  You do NOT want CCA (Copper Coated Aluminum), it doesn't solder well, and it's not as good a conductor either.

John, please see link above.

That looks like copper wire, but they say solid and the reviews say stranded, so I don't really know what it is.

LOL, my thoughts.  

I've used the Southwire #14 gauge stranded wire from Amazon over the past year without problem. My purpose was to add additional "home run" lines from a distribution point and feeders to an existing layout. In my case, I use black and white for AC.

The problem with Amazon wire is that the description is totally messed up. It states the wire is 10 gauge (not true) and is single strand (not true).

But the wire is stranded, crimps well, solders well and measures 14 in my wire gauge.

https://www.amazon.com/Southwi...0-Feet/dp/B000PALRY8

Bruce, you feel it's "up to snuff?"  It appears its good wire but I really want to be sure.  It also doesn't say it THHN so how is the casing/insulation feel?    Do you think it's true 14 ga?

The "Primary Wire" I buy at Lowes is stranded.

Mannyrock

@Hp289 posted:

Bruce, you feel it's "up to snuff?"  It appears its good wire but I really want to be sure.  It also doesn't say it THHN so how is the casing/insulation feel?    Do you think it's true 14 ga?

Here are a visual comparison of the 25 year-old 14 gauge wire I originally used (black) and the recent "Amazon" wire I just added (white)

I then separated out the strands to verify that there were 19 each (yes!) and each strand measured 0.36 mm on my digital caliper for both types of wire.

Here is the label on the Amazon wire:

Here is the label on the original wire I used:

My "old" wire could probably hold up better outdoors or in automotive use because of the type of insulation used but that is obviously not an issue for train use. The only other comparisons would be ohms/foot and metallurgic tests for copper pureness.

But in general answer to your question, it appears that the Amazon wire is up-to-snuff for 20 VAC, 10 Amp-ish train use.

I would like to get on my never seize band wagon again,Please bear with me.We have a chain of Auto Parts stores here in CA. called "Oreillys " They have a copper based never seize product that I like to use. I take a palm sized piece of scrap corrugated cardboard and put about a tablespoon of the goo on the cardboard and let the oil get absorbed by the corrugated overnight. I have about a 16 X 20 layout and use Gargraves track. I dip the ends of each connecting pin  [all 3 ] microscopicgly sparingly [as little as possible] in the copper. I run a stranded 16ga wire to a point in the track as far as possible from the transformer and another as close as possible to the transformer. With 2 feeds and one loco I am never farther than 8 feet from a feeder wire.  

@Bruce Brown posted:

I've used the Southwire #14 gauge stranded wire from Amazon over the past year without problem. My purpose was to add additional "home run" lines from a distribution point and feeders to an existing layout. In my case, I use black and white for AC.

The problem with Amazon wire is that the description is totally messed up. It states the wire is 10 gauge (not true) and is single strand (not true).

But the wire is stranded, crimps well, solders well and measures 14 in my wire gauge.

https://www.amazon.com/Southwi...0-Feet/dp/B000PALRY8

FWIW I used the same wire as well (Southwire)....14 gauge stranded for Star-wiring which will be connected directly to the track and I have one bus line using the same wire for my accessories and lighting which will be controlled by on/off switches.   For the bus line I have 16 and 18 gauge to wire directly to lights and accessories.

-Greg

Well, I was at Lowes and some of this was marked down and with my vet discount it came out to almost reasonable, so I bought a small batch of wire to start out.  I'm figuring a loop (bus) of the white for track 1, and a loop of the red for track 2.  One loop of the Green wire for both of the other loops to use as a ground.  Based on my plan (see previous pics) I figure about 8 feeder drops per track, then 2 more drops per siding for the 6 sidings makes 12 more drops.  Total feeder drops should be about 28.   The 14 ga THHN for the bus, and the 16 ga primary wire for the feeders.  The roll of red/white 20 ga on the left is to power the 10 Ross switches probably in a home run setup. Powered off accy only new ZW-L.    I think.  Experts please steer me if I'm wrong.

Gunrunnerjohn

Just wanted to again thank you again for the information you provided on the bus wiring. I was able to complete the wiring on my layout, three loops.  Iused 14g wire for the bus and 18g for the drops from the track. Success !! I ran three trains on each loop. Not only did the run with no hiccups, there no no voltage drops as each train  ran on each loop.  

I also understand where I went wrong with DCS wiring. DCS will be part of the next phase of my layout.

I also learned a lot from this.

Thank you once again !!!

Steve

We love success stories, glad it all worked out.