With MTH closing there will be a tremendous loss of variety (and MTH engines that we regret selling)

I had bought the MTH 30-2392-1 Redbird 4-car Subway Set and the two car add-on set. I kept the 4-car set but during a lean year or two I sold the add-on set as well as many uncataloged MTH Boxcars.

When I look on the the auction sites, I rarely see them, and when I do, the price is often 2 to 3 times what I paid.

"Unfortunately, Lionel seems to be in the business model of re-issuing the same engines again and again."

This also has been the business model of MTH for about a decade.  No one is doing much new tooling for whatever reason. But other than the 44 ton diesel, what has MTH done?  Lionel has done multiple examples of new tooling, although perhaps not anything you or I covet, but let's be fair. MTH has done next to nothing after many years of providing a lot of variety.  The hobby industry for three rail O isn't exactly in a growth phase.  Just like during the years 1969 through the 1990s, you're going to need to shop the used market for many things no longer available, and prices will be according to supply and demand.  That's reality as far as I can tell.

Disclaimer:

I am under 35 years of age and I know my opinions may differ from those who have been in the hobby who have “(object of your choice here) older than me” (On a sidenote when someone says that to me I HATE IT. Buy some new **** socks,  they don’t last that long and if you’re using a sock older than 35 years you’re gross! 

 Disclaimer over!

As someone who has been in the hobby for less than five years.  I am devastated at the closing of MTH . I currently have 7 new/modern engines a mix of steam diesel and electric. Only one is from Lionel, which I purchased on a whim. I was drawn to MTH over Lionel for the following reasons:

1. I put a great deal and effort into researching and studying the different control systems and I personally felt the MTH  System was the superior of the two . I work in IT in the system simply spoke to me. As Someone who grew up with computers and smart phones the math systems interface feels modern and makes logical sense to my mind. (I use the phone app, I  have no interest in a handheld remote)

In contrast the Lionel system feels extremely dated to me. It’s combination of serial cables and small jumper boxes. These blue Circuit board boxes, That have electric jumper inputs. It just seems like something from the 80s, It feels mechanical almost as if you need a degree in electrical engineering to understand it. Simply put it’s a turn off,  it looks complicated,  Therefore I will not investigate it further.  It looks dated, Therefore I will look for a system that is modern. 

 An axiom that wraps it all up!

“If you need to explain your user interface, you have already failed!”

2. In five years Lionel Has only released one engine that I have been truly excited about. Something that made me say I am going to pre-order that right now no matter what. The B&O em-1. And because I feel like Lionell is personally trying to insult me. In the catalog where it was Announced, the B&O version was not in center stage, but instead on the fold with a fantastic Scheme enlarged and in center! Total B.S.  (but back to my point, that has really ****ed me off for a long time) every MTH catalog had at least 2 or 3 things I just had to have. They seemed to release more interesting things and in a greater Variety of smaller and regional railroads. I don’t recall Lionel doing any thing in Canton, Maryland and Pennsylvania, or other similar lines. 

3. Packaging

This is something that in MTH gets so right, and Lionel the granddaddy, the one who has been around the block, the expert in the industry Utterly and completely fails at! 

I am going to type a single word: Purple

From that single word you know exactly what I am talking about! 

You see a purple box on the table and you KNOW, the item in that box is Beautifully crafted and SCALE. There is no question in your mind what is going to be inside of a yellow box versus a purple box. 

By contrast, there is an orange box well who knows! 

Why can’t they just print o gauge or scale one the label. 

The loss of MTH IS devastating to me, I think the industry is going to stagnate and get well boring, oh goodie another cartoon theme train set, I can’t wait for that Flintstones meet the Jetsons set! Can’t wait for another branded cash grab. Looking at you Scooby-Doo and Star Trek.

Simply put MTH is a model company that makes some toys.

Lionel is a toy company that makes some models. 

Lets all light a candle for 3’rd rail.

A few years ago, I decided it was time to thin the roster.  Too many engines.  Not enough room.  My first candidate for disposal was a Railking EL E8 unit that rarely saw any track time.  I got it out to take pictures, check the ODO / CHONO and run one last time.  That changed my mind.  It looks great and is probably my best sounding diesel.  Glad I kept it.  Since then, I got more room and more engines.  Haven’t sold any MTH engines so I have no regrets.

Missed the European steam engines first time offered, now looks like I missed out forever.

 I think some of you NAYsayers are discrediting Scott Mann and Sunset Models, GGD, and possibly Atlas O.  While a bit pricey in the eyes of many, Sunset Models GGD have brought in many "name trains" AND have detailed them as close to prototype as possible. I believe where there is a will, there is a way. If Sunset Models sees an opportunity and their minimum orders are met, they will build. Just look at the Amfleet/ Viewliners coming in O scale- And made of Quality Aluminum with Ball Bearings in the trucks!

https://lh3.googleusercontent....uvYCjFqTHtSg9fwcMndy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXLG9Gu--tk

https://www.google.com/url?sa=...6OoCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAO

You Don't hear too many failures of Sunset Model Locomotives- Have you? I havent.

And It maybe possible since Scott Mann deals with Chinese factories that he might be able to pick up some of those molds.

Another contender could be Atlas O. While lurking in the shadows of the O scale market, Atlas O might see the opportunity to rerelease some of their locomotives in more popular road names that their customers want.

But the BOTTOM LINE IS you want something new, DEMAND IT! Write letters to Atlas O, Lionel, and Sunset Models. Don't just "Sheeple" and give your wants on this forum thinking the MFG's will one day stumble upon your thread 50 pages back on this forum!

Ryan Kunkle of Lionel listened to my request for the Conrail New England Safety Caboose which is in the 2020 Pt2 catalog for preorder!

https://www.google.com/search?...imgrc=ZTkZ6gZzxYK-IM

https://mrmuffinstrains.com/products/l-2126250

“If you need to explain your user interface, you have already failed!”

Have you bought Barry's book(s)?  There aren't any for Legacy, TMCC or LionChief .  You got that off your chest.  Your reality does not conform to that of many others in the hobby.  Sorry.  As posted above, there is a lot more to the three rail hobby for most of us than just MTH.  Explore the other options and you may be surprised how much fun you could have.  Most of my recent purchases (last 10 years) are Lionel, Atlas (not much) and 3rd Rail.  I haven't felt a loss of variety of things to enjoy, speaking only personally.

Well, my comment about Lionel's business model of re-issuing again and again is the same model MTH has used...it wasn't meant as an insult to Lionel...I take it's a standard model of investment in design and castings, and then re-coup and gain via re-issuing again and again. However, I don't think that the modern Lionel (post 2000s) has come close to the variety MTH has put out. There's debate on quantity of offerings vs. quality, sound fidelity, scale details and accuracy (which both companies can claim victory on various models), etc., but I do believe I am correct on the variety for both semi-scale and scale models. I bet someone has an excel list comparing all the offerings in the last 20 years...perhaps they can chime in. As I tend to stick to eastern road-names, I can only cite first-hand the PRR boxcab models that I am familiar with.

We can probably all agree that through competition the consumer gets better products. The Reading T1 is a good example, and if memory serves, was MTH's first scale steamer that Mike Wolf made for Lionel way back when. Interestingly, MTH's newer cast model of the T1 ~ first issued around 2003 or so, is featured in their last catalog. It features smoking whistle, which is long overdue. However, to demonstrate my point, Lionel upped the ante a few years ago by making an even more accurate Reading T1 (fully rounded boiler - not the U-casting that so many modern scale and semi-scale die-cast steamers were designed with). But, MTH's model has a deck plate, whereas Lionel omitted that. To me, the fully rounded boiler is the deciding factor, and thus got my pre-order from the Lionel 2020 vol 1 catalog. If I can obtain the funds, I would buy an MTH T1, given its going to be one of their last scale steamers...and has the smoking whistle, as does of course the Lionel

Yet another happy topic... 

Mark in Oregon

I think sometime during the "explosion" of offerings started in the late 90's (remember the 3 catalogs per year craziness?  Or 6 for MTH since they did one for Premier and one for Railking back then), at some point each manufacturer left a few things off of their potential offerings realizing the other had a firm foothold. 

Just my guess there.  Examples: While both Lionel and MTH did Shays, only MTH did the Climax and only Lionel did the Heisler.  Two very unique mechanical designs that I would have to assume involved a lot of $$ to do the engineering to produce each.  Also, MTH definitely had the (mostly) cornered market on the subway set realm (and since Legacy did not include any functionality similar to MTH's Auto Mode for these, that would be a hard thing to compete with, even with the cool commandable opening doors ).  True Lionel did 3 subway sets, but they were very similar (if not identical) except for very small details (possibly the window shape on the end doors?).  For the most part the difference was the paint job.  Other than those 3 offerings, Lionel stayed away from that market.  Also the Triplex.  I'm sure the engineering to get that right was a bear.  MTH expended the effort, so it made sense for them to offer it a few times.  How much of a market is there for those that Lionel would also sell enough of them to make it worth it to put in the R&D $$ to pay for itself?

So my point is with MTH stepping out of the picture (unless something miraculous happens), possibly Lionel may look at such things differently in the future with no other large competitor to worry about.

-Dave

“If you need to explain your user interface, you have already failed!”

OH.  You mean the 300-page "companion"?

To answer the question:  I've had many MTH locs over the years and I have gradually sold off all of them.  The two that I regret selling (because I would / should have converted them to TMCC) are the original Cab-Forward and the Shay.

The Shay leaving the roster is probably the one that I regret the most.

There was life before MTH...there will be life after....

LOOKING FOR A MTH PREMIER BLUE GOOSE SET PS2 OR PS3 WITH 4 OR MORE CARS   ANYONE WHO HAS AND WOULD LIKE TO SELL E MAIL ME

ANDYRORO2007@LIVE.COM

I forget about the Premier PRR L5 ...yet another unique MTH model that nobody else has made. With the P5A, that's 6 PRR box-cabs...and I sold them all

From memory: Unique MTH scale PRR steamers: I-10 decapod; L-1 Mikado; H10; and A5.

One PRR steamer that Lionel made and MTH didn't was the CCII.

Thanks to Youtube and ToyTrains1 (Dave) who use to post on OGR frequently, we PRR boxcab electric fans can still see some of these neat trains in action. I haven't seen Dave post in some time...I hope he's doing okay. To me, these are some of the neatest toy trains ever made.

The "March" of PRR electrics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMcYkM0_Tn8

PRR L5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMcYkM0_Tn8

PRR FF2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMcYkM0_Tn8

I see Dave had another PRR electric that I never owned, the FF1.

BTW: the GG1 is shown in the first video...I haven't included it since its been done by every company I believe, and I had sold my MTH and Lionel versions. All of the above boxcab electrics pre-date the GG1.

Originally posted by Paul Kallus:

From memory: Unique MTH scale PRR steamers: I-10 decapod; L-1 Mikado; H10; and A5.

IDK what you mean by Unique. All those steamers were made previous in Brass O scale 3 rail from Williams and Weaver [Samhongsa] to 3rd Rail.

@peter allen 072518 posted:

As someone who has been in the hobby for less than five years.  I am devastated at the closing of MTH . I currently have 7 new/modern engines a mix of steam diesel and electric. Only one is from Lionel, which I purchased on a whim. I was drawn to MTH over Lionel for the following reasons:

1. I put a great deal and effort into researching and studying the different control systems and I personally felt the MTH  System was the superior of the two . I work in IT in the system simply spoke to me. As Someone who grew up with computers and smart phones the math systems interface feels modern and makes logical sense to my mind. (I use the phone app, I  have no interest in a handheld remote)

In contrast the Lionel system feels extremely dated to me. It’s combination of serial cables and small jumper boxes. These blue Circuit board boxes, That have electric jumper inputs. It just seems like something from the 80s, It feels mechanical almost as if you need a degree in electrical engineering to understand it. Simply put it’s a turn off,  it looks complicated,  Therefore I will not investigate it further.  It looks dated, Therefore I will look for a system that is modern. 

 An axiom that wraps it all up!

“If you need to explain your user interface, you have already failed!”

While I think both systems are actually pretty similar, I did find the early, PowerHouse, PowerMaster, and TrainMaster command base confusing.

 I didn't know what I needed and I find Lionel's website pretty uninformative.  Granted I was looking for products that have been eclipsed by Legacy and are no longer made. 

3. Packaging

This is something that in MTH gets so right, and Lionel the granddaddy, the one who has been around the block, the expert in the industry Utterly and completely fails at! 

I am going to type a single word: Purple

From that single word you know exactly what I am talking about! 

You see a purple box on the table and you KNOW, the item in that box is Beautifully crafted and SCALE. There is no question in your mind what is going to be inside of a yellow box versus a purple box. 

By contrast, there is an orange box well who knows! 

Why can’t they just print o gauge or scale one the label. 

100% totally agree.  

The loss of MTH IS devastating to me, I think the industry is going to stagnate and get well boring, oh goodie another cartoon theme train set, I can’t wait for that Flintstones meet the Jetsons set! Can’t wait for another branded cash grab. Looking at you Scooby-Doo and Star Trek.

Simply put MTH is a model company that makes some toys.

Lionel is a toy company that makes some models. 

Very well said.

While the fine aesthetes and artistes of the three rail O gauge world may find the Polar Express, Harry Potter, Area 51 and Scooby Doo sets beneath their contempt, these products have helped keep Lionel in business, unlike a certain competitor .  Unless one of you knows some love struck MTH fan who is also a venture capitalist, private equity maven or other white knight, you are apparently just going to have to live in our reality, whatever that turns out to be.  I have an Area 51 set with lighted track on order from the last catalog, truth be told.  I never claimed to have finely tuned artistic tendencies, and I guess this proves the point.

Everyone, let's try to keep the comparisons on an "even keel"

Some O-gaugers only buy one company's products and/or command system...nothing wrong with that...probably simpler to learn and operate via one system.

While I pretty much buy only O-scale trains from Lionel and MTH, I am a bona-fide toy train guy  I am so glad that the folks at Lionel went against the tide and made O-scale fantasy trains in the Polar Express, Milwaukee Road, Union Pacific, and other road-names with the Legacy system.

By the same token, I am grateful that the folks at MTH made unique scale European steamers and American steam and diesel-electric engines with DCS.

Undoubtedly, there's been a lot of money spent on tools and dyes, and perhaps, if demand is strong enough in future years, someone will re-issue all of the wonderful variety of models with one command system. Until then, we can hunt down older versions and/or lament on the models we parted with

Have faith my friends,  I'll bet you that the demise of MTH will go the same way as  "President Dewey's apparent election" in 1948. This book has more chapters to be written. I can't wait to see the next act.  Enjoy the ride!

I love most everything, evidenced by the fact that most of my life I have acquired 0 Gauge and 027 trains, initially as Christmas and birthday gifts as a child, and then purchasing them as an adult, and I have never sold, given away or thrown out any of them.

I love Postwar Lionel, and modern MTH, Lionel, Williams and K Line. 

When it comes to transformers, I prefer the Z4000 to run modern locomotives; and the ZW to run Postwar Lionel, and provide the power for all accessories and 022 switches. The Z4000 is just as good as the ZW to run Postwar Lionel.

Arnold

The MTH stuff I have consists of a few railroad cars. Their memory will live on in my rolling stock, because those don't tend to have a finite service life. RIP MTH 

So many "Firsts" brought to the O gauge market courtesy of MTH.

F7

GP7 (cannot count Lionel due to stamped handrails)

GP9 (cannot count Lionel due to stamped handrails)

GP20 (cannot count Lionel due to stamped handrails)

GP30

GP40

GP60M

SD9 (cannot count Lionel due to adding 6 axle trucks to a GP9)

SW1500

SD45 (Williams was non proportional)

FP45 (Williams was non proportional)

SD45T-2

C30-7

SD50

SD60

SD60M

SD70M

SD90Mac

Dash8

Dash9

AC4400CW

AC6000

U50C

U50D

DDA40X

89' Autocarriers

And many more

Or how about this... A list of (some) of the MTH only models. There's a bunch I'm missing but off the top of my head:

M1 Turbine

AC-6 Cab Forward

PRR Electrics (previously mentioned) 

PRR Q2 

GN S2 4-8-4 

C&O Greenbrier 

CNW E4

Santa Fe Hudsons (2900 class, 3460 class) 

NYC Mohawks (minus L3a and L2a) 

ANY Subway MTH made 

DDA40X 

U25B 

U30C 

U50C

UP Turbines (coal, propane, big blow, veranda) 

@Trainlover9943 posted:

Or how about this... A list of (some) of the MTH only models. There's a bunch I'm missing but off the top of my head:

M1 Turbine

AC-6 Cab Forward

PRR Electrics (previously mentioned) 

PRR Q2 

GN S2 4-8-4 

C&O Greenbrier 

CNW E4

Santa Fe Hudsons (2900 class, 3460 class) 

NYC Mohawks (minus L3a and L2a) 

ANY Subway MTH made 

DDA40X 

U25B 

U30C 

U50C

UP Turbines (coal, propane, big blow, veranda) 

 

3rd Rail, Weaver, and Williams brass all made several of those.  Plus I have a Lionel U30C. 

@CAPPilot posted:

3rd Rail, Weaver, and Williams brass all made several of those.  Plus I have a Lionel U30C. 

True. The point was though that there are a bunch of MTH only models. 

The only locomotives I regret having sold are the geared locomotives from MTH, Lionel, and K-Line. I had versions of all: Shays, Heislers, and Climax, Sold them for far less than I should have, and do regret not having kept all of them. I will be building a new layout after an upcoming move, and it will likely retain the U.S. Army Transportation Corps theme I stated with in my current home (I think I have just about every U.S. Army locomotive ever made by Lionel, MTH, and Weaver), but I also have a whole lot of Ohio Central motive power and a growing number of Union RR items, so anything is apt to happen.

Maybe a couple for me but I still have much of what I want or need. MTH trains have been an innovator in some technology and have tooled up for some models and accessories no other manufacturer thought about doing.  I hate to see MTH leave the building but I'm grateful for what they have done over the last 40 years.    It will be interesting to see what tooling may fall in the hands of another manufacturer for O,S,HO,standard and G gauge.  Time will tell.

Only one that comes to mind is the Ives Black Diamond. It’s not far from me, I could always steal it back.

Steve

My mother was right when she drilled into my brain when I was a child in the 1950s: "Never sell your Lionel trains."

The same is true for MTH trains that were not even a gleam in Mike Wolf's eye in the 1950s, to wit: "Never sell your MTH trains."

LOL, Arnold

MTH GP7 Erie with PS2.  First engine I bought when I got back into the hobby.  Wish I would have kept it for sentimental reasons if nothing else.

@Landsteiner posted:

  I have an Area 51 set with lighted track on order from the last catalog, truth be told.  I never claimed to have finely tuned artistic tendencies, and I guess this proves the point.

Funny...me too. And that set is so "not me." Not sure if it was the whimsy or the new lighted track or just the idea of FUN, but I pre-ordered the set and an add-on car.

Actually have an idea about doing a small "space-themed" layout with this set to kick it off. You never know what will sell.

Now, where's my Menard's flying saucer?

Over the years , MTH had produced at least 20 items that I had suggested ( and that they'll admit to). My only regret is that we ran out of time before we could get the TRANSYLVANIA GG1 and an OAHU railway boxcar.

It was a good run while it lasted.

Mahalo and Aloha

rat

I didn't initially mention it, but as I panned around the basement the other day I noticed that a great deal of the structures were by MTH Railking ~ about 75% of the total ~ they've made a very nice variety over the years...and some are very hard to find these days.

@Arnold D. Cribari posted:

My mother was right when she drilled into my brain when I was a child in the 1950s: "Never sell your Lionel trains."

The same is true for MTH trains that were not even a gleam in Mike Wolf's eye in the 1950s, to wit: "Never sell your MTH trains."

LOL, Arnold

 

I still have all mine. Never would consider selling them as they can't be replaced. Most of mine would be hard to find.

I have every model locomotive, mostly MTH Premier, that I have purchased since re-entering the hobby 23 years ago. I buy models because I like them and, for me, I continue to like them even if the details, sounds or control system are "improved" in a higher-priced rerun. Whether a model has the latest features is irrelevant to me. I still run some very nice PS1 engines that I have operated for more than twenty years with no repairs required. They have delivered my money's worth.

I do think MTH has been much more innovative than Lionel in offering locomotive models that have not previously been offered elsewhere. Too many to list here but, among the New Haven Railroad examples are the EP-3, EF-3, Fairbanks-Morse CPA-24-5, Alco DL-109, and scale-sized GE 44-ton diesel.

MELGAR

Melvin, I like your philosophy of keeping and running trains.

I sold all my PS1 and other non-command engines in the early 2000's. Most of them were traditional size. MTH re-issued all of them, I believe with PS2. My decision to sell at that time was due to going full command control (TMCC and DCS), moving towards scale trains, and aggravation of engines getting locked in neutral from drained battery.

Another category that MTH variety shined with numerous models were the die-cast streamliners from the 1930s. I recall seeing quite a lot of these in catalogs over the years.

I have seen the same over the years. same stuff over and over  Lionel went from premium vision line to junk. Hold on to what you have from both on the high end stuff and collectible sets. 

@Paul Kallus posted:

Everyone, let's try to keep the comparisons on an "even keel"

 

It's impossible with all the self important "it's my way only" members of OGR.

As usual, this devolved into the typical Lionel vs MTH thread so prevalent here.

On the other hand, I'm glad you began this, since we need a 15th topic about MTH closing.

@SPSF posted:

So many "Firsts" brought to the O gauge market courtesy of MTH.

F7 [Williams/Kusan was really the first F7]

GP7 (cannot count Lionel due to stamped handrails) Sorry but it was a GP9 that MTH came out with and labeled as a GP7.  Atlas O has the first  SCALE GP7 with correct PIPE HAndrails.

GP9 (cannot count Lionel due to stamped handrails)

GP20 (cannot count Lionel due to stamped handrails)

GP30

GP40

GP60M [Atlas O was the first MTh Followed!]

SD9 (cannot count Lionel due to adding 6 axle trucks to a GP9) [Sorry, MTH is really an SD7 - look at the marker light positions]

SW1500

SD45 (Williams was non proportional)

FP45 (Williams was non proportional)

SD45T-2

C30-7

SD50

SD60

SD60M

SD70M

SD90Mac

Dash8

Dash9

AC4400CW  [Sorry but 3rd Rail Brass had the AC400CW come out first]

AC6000

U50C

U50D

DDA40X

89' Autocarriers [you mean Shortened 18" Versions - O scale brass for Overland was the first Scale autoracks, Lionel for 3 rail  scale O gauge]

And many more

 

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

 

I'm talking actual Production (not Built to order Brass, anything can be made for a Price).

I've never seen a 3rd Rail AC4400CW, is it vapor ware?

You cannot count that Kusan/Williams "F7" ~ It's Junk.

I can only find 1998 for MTH GP60M and 2003 or 2004 for Atlas GP60M.

Point was:  MTH brought Many Firsts to the Hobby that we have all benefited from. (I failed to mention in my original post Affordable steamers).

Autoracks were fine for what was available at the time = Nothing or $500 brass 2 rail.

The 3rd Rail AC4400CW came out around 1998 or early 1999.  They show up on Ebay from time to time.  They are nice locomotives.  Now that Scott is doing a new run with the latest improvements in the drive, ball bearings on all axles, no swinging pilot and in higher resolution plastic, it will be the best one on the market for scale operators.

My opinion it that MTH did bring the benefit of competition to the market for both reasonably priced products and technology.  They make some excellent products.  As for a loss of variety, I don't see it.  Steam locomotives may come back from different manufacturer's in either full brass or brass hybrid and the pricing which be not a whole lot more than what we are seeing in die cast.  The diesels might be more difficult for some of the "what used to be modern" locos like an SD60 or SD80MAC.  If there is demand for a specific locomotive that can generate enough interest to do it in numbers, it will be made.

As a buyer, not a seller I have no regrets.

As for others filling MTH’s shoes, it ain’t gonna happen. Atlas has done exactly two steam locomotives if you include the toy Atlantic. Both were duds. 3rd Rail as been resistant to do many steam engines that were requested plus the others they agreed to do with not enough interest to complete them.

We will just have to live with the loss as we have with K-Line. The O gauge community is poorer for it.

Pete

Been working on an end around strategy incase no one takes them over. Always think ahead. 

In my lifetime there are only two items I regret selling and neither were trains:

• A Roland Jupiter 8 analog synthesizer I paid $500.00 for and sold for less when no one wanted analog equipment.  Current value $15,000.00
• An Oberheim Matrix 1000 rack synthesizer I traded for a Fender Squire Strat.  I looked to replace it, but they are going for 8 times what I paid for it new.

Speaking of the vapor ware  3rd Rail Dash-9

It is a very nice locomotive even by today's standards.

I'm pretty bummed to see MTH go. I started with Lionel and they've been great. Somehow, they survived the grueling stuff I put them through (dicey trestles, bridges, "dirt", etc) as a kid. I got some MTH rolling stock before I got out of model railroading and really liked them. Hopefully MTH is mostly closing because Mike is retiring. That will leave space for the other companies to fill. We'll see. I do not believe this is the end of good times. Just a dip. There's a demand, someone will fill it. I'm extremely concerned about my local hobby shop and their walls of MTH stuff. I hope Sunset, Atlas, Weaver, etc can fill that void. 

My greatest regret with MTH's closing is that I do not have a triplex. I want one so bad. I hope the ones on ebay are decent since I suspect any broken stuff will be need parts that are no longer in production unless I can 3D print them. We'll see what happens. Maybe the tax return will get me an ebay triplex

How about the P&LE Berkshire? I know it was done in 2 rail by Precision Scale but MTH was the only company to do it in 3 rail. I am happy to have one. I apologize if this was mentioned. I quickly read through these two pages. 

I think I have only sold one or two MTH engines over the years. The only one I can think of that I regret is I had a PS1 weathered C&O Greenbriar. I wish I never sold that. Well, maybe someday I will come across another one. 

What is even worse is there are a few I regret never buying. Who knows if I ever will come across those locomotives in the coming years. The scale wheel versions are rare.

I've often joked that my collection is like the Roach Motel--once it checks in, it doesn't check out.

The upside: I'll not have to chase down "second thoughts"

The downside: Erm, a little pressed for space. I'll have to play a lot of train-box Tetris while I round up the last few MTH-exclusive car types I had been putting off (latest one: a couple of their big wood-chip hoppers)

---PCJ

Well I just scored the Erie Triplex off eBay! I am glad I got it. But that's an entire student loan payment I could have made haha 

i WONDER IF MTH had told us two years ago that they were closing up shop; would your buying or selling habits have changed? 

I think the answer is NO. We would not have changed at all.  This is not the first time for us. Flyer and K-Line left us, and I still buy and see many OLD (not Lionel) K-Line items sold on eBay and the shows. (No Flyer, I dont care about Flyer) 

You want that MTH engine you sold off years ago; wait. One of us will pass and it will be up for sale again.

All this consternation over a company that has sold thousands if not millions of products. MTH may have gone away but their trains will live on!

I am on the other end of the spectrum in the last year I was fortunate enough to pick up several ABA RK F-3 sets from forum members for a great deal. I know that the RK sets lack details but IMO these sets are some of the best running sets MTH made.  I really like my Atlas locomotives too and I think they are great bargains but not made as well as most MTH offerings. There will be another company that will pick up the production of MTH train items. 

I predict Lionel will buy the tooling for MTH's Premier Line...there's just too many neat and unique models for Lionel - now the industry's lone top player - to let go to the "last roundup." This would be a wise business decision as buying the designs/molds is likely less costly than reverse engineering them or designing from the start. Thus someday those of us lamenting over the loss of those unique engines will see them again, only with Legacy system.

Maybe they would buy the Railking line, too, but I wouldn't bet on that...certainly the structures I could see Lionel buying but am not confident on the line of trains. My crystal ball, albeit a bit foggy, may be showing Menards as a buyer for the Railking Line of structures/accessories.

That's my "glass half-full" appraisal for today

@Paul Kallus posted:

I predict Lionel will buy the tooling for MTH's Premier Line...there's just too many neat and unique models for Lionel - now the industry's lone top player - to let go to the "last roundup." This would be a wise business decision as buying the designs/molds is likely less costly than reverse engineering them or designing from the start. Thus someday those of us lamenting over the loss of those unique engines will see them again, only with Legacy system.

.................

Not to rain too much on the positive thinking, but I think this assertion assumes that Lionel wants to expand their offerings to include every single thing MTH has made in Premier.

That's a huge amount of stuff.  Lionel may have no desire to try to expand to that level, especially with the many unknowns. 

It may well be cheaper to engineer from scratch a few things they may have a better shot at selling with MTH no longer manufacturing than to spend what would most likely be A LOT of money to purchase the whole line.

It's sort of like saying it would be a good decision for Ford or Chevy to pick up the other's entire line and start trying to add all of those products to their line if the other was going to close up their tent.

Interesting times.  Hopefully you are right , but I don't see it.

-Dave

In pursuing any tooling Lionel or any other company has to pry it out of MTH and where they produce it in China or Korea and be allowed to hand the tooling to the vendors they now work with or work with MTH plant to produce their product with Lionels legacy/TMCC technology.  It could get costly..The overseas process is not simple forget bringing it here that would be even more costly. There are no simple solutions look back at KLINE as a benchmark at liquidation of quality product produced overseas in a different business climate.

Unless MTH has sole legal title in China to the tooling, it seems more likely that the factories that have the tooling will approach American vendors at some point about using the tooling that they have their possession.  Why would Lionel purchase tooling at market rates now,  when they potentially can just contract with whoever owns legal title once the dust has settled,  and the tooling is of minimum value once MTH is gone?  If MTH is dissolved, unless Mike Wolf personally has legal title, the tooling is essentially abandoned or owned by the factory, or at least that's one possible scenario. 

@Paul Kallus posted:

I predict Lionel will buy the tooling for MTH's Premier Line...there's just too many neat and unique models for Lionel - now the industry's lone top player - to let go to the "last roundup." This would be a wise business decision as buying the designs/molds is likely less costly than reverse engineering them or designing from the start. Thus someday those of us lamenting over the loss of those unique engines will see them again, only with Legacy system.

Maybe they would buy the Railking line, too, but I wouldn't bet on that...certainly the structures I could see Lionel buying but am not confident on the line of trains. My crystal ball, albeit a bit foggy, may be showing Menards as a buyer for the Railking Line of structures/accessories.

That's my "glass half-full" appraisal for today

 

 

Sorry, I don't see that happening for a number of reasons:

• MTH's IP rights and copyrights expiring this year.  Were they renewed or does MTH's dissolution coincide with that?
• China's blatant disregard for IP and copyrights makes getting anything out of there very difficult.
• Not everything made in the Premier line is cost effective or worthy of reproduction.  The freight cars have the greatest probability (and cost effectiveness) of being reproduced.  Some locomotive shells as well.  The electronics?  Not so much.  Command system?  No way.

I don't see wholesale acquisition of entire product lines by any current manufacturer.  I do see a pick and choose approach 2-5 years after the closure.

George

I would think Lionel would want to grab some of the tooling for products they don't make but I'm hoping to see another company (Atlas, Weaver, Etc) try to step in and gain some momentum with former MTH products. 

I have been known to think wrong. 

@BillYo414 posted:

I would think Lionel would want to grab some of the tooling for products they don't make but I'm hoping to see another company (Atlas, Weaver, Etc) try to step in and gain some momentum with former MTH products. 

I have been known to think wrong. 

Typo? Did you mean Williams by Bachmann?  Weaver folded their tent several years ago.

-Dave

It had to be a typo. I don't think Weaver is coming back.

A lot of speculation here. Without more facts it is hard to predict what will happen.

Well, if we we're running trains it'd make for an interesting conversation, or if we were sitting in a bar it'd make a good "I'll bet you a brewski on that."

I admit I am not versed in Intellectual Property rights or patent laws, but I have been an avid reader of MTH and Lionel catalogs in the last 15+ years and it seems to me that releasing a new model and then re-releasing ad nauseum has been the modus operandi for the importers. I still say that MTH Premier Line has some of the most unique and most interesting tooling in diecast done to date, and assuming there's market demand, someone is going to want it. I don't think its as easy to design from scratch as it may appear. There's a fair amount of complexity in designing both super-structure, chassis, and sub-assemblies. I am still amazed whenever I watch my Triplex run...truly a masterpiece in mechanical engineering.

@Hudson J1e posted:

It had to be a typo. I don't think Weaver is coming back.

 

Yeah I meant Williams. 

@Paul Kallus posted:

Well, if we we're running trains it'd make for an interesting conversation, or if we were sitting in a bar it'd make a good "I'll bet you a brewski on that."

I admit I am not versed in Intellectual Property rights or patent laws, but I have been an avid reader of MTH and Lionel catalogs in the last 15+ years and it seems to me that releasing a new model and then re-releasing ad nauseum has been the modus operandi for the importers. I still say that MTH Premier Line has some of the most unique and most interesting tooling in diecast done to date, and assuming there's market demand, someone is going to want it. I don't think its as easy to design from scratch as it may appear. There's a fair amount of complexity in designing both super-structure, chassis, and sub-assemblies. I am still amazed whenever I watch my Triplex run...truly a masterpiece in mechanical engineering.

Paul, I believe you hit the keynote here, and that is, is there enough market demand for someone to make the investment. Let's face it, things are shrinking not expanding.

It would be really interesting if Mr. Wolf wrote a book about the industry someday.  I would buy it in a heartbeat.

@rplst8 posted:

It would be really interesting if Mr. Wolf wrote a book about the industry someday.  I would buy it in a heartbeat.

You can get the first half of MTH history now.  Mike isn't credited as the author of "A Toy Train Story", but I bet he had a say in it's content.

I'd have to say the one set that evaded me the most was the R142A set. I would always be in a new financial situation when MTH announced the one set I've been wanting for the longest. In 2009, just graduated grad school and in 2013, moved out on my own into the city and just bought a car. It seems that bad timing occurred both times when this set was produced. Also, I will miss MTH their Subway sets really could not be beat and I feel now it's going to get a lot harder for Subway fans to get quality sets, especially since Lionel is more about novelty subway sets rather than making mainline products. And lets not forget the price hikes that will happen on ebay, just thinking about it is making me upset.

@SubwayLover posted:

I'd have to say the one set that evaded me the most was the R142A set. I would always be in a new financial situation when MTH announced the one set I've been wanting for the longest. In 2009, just graduated grad school and in 2013, moved out on my own into the city and just bought a car. It seems that bad timing occurred both times when this set was produced. Also, I will miss MTH their Subway sets really could not be beat and I feel now it's going to get a lot harder for Subway fans to get quality sets, especially since Lionel is more about novelty subway sets rather than making mainline products. And lets not forget the price hikes that will happen on ebay, just thinking about it is making me upset.

I agree, I REALLY hope that Lionel gets the tooling for the subways and runs with it. I would HATE to see them go away.

@Trainlover9943 posted:

I agree, I REALLY hope that Lionel gets the tooling for the subways and runs with it. I would HATE to see them go away.

Not that I disagree with either of you guys, the MTH subway sets were for the most part a home run.

But I need to wonder, is a subway set without DCS and the Auto Mode feature still as desirable as the MTH models with those features?  My understanding is that the subway sets have a special board that allows that, i.e., it's not just dropping a subway set sound file into a standard Proto 2.0 or 3.0 (or 3/2, whatever the latest board is) electronics package.

Would the same subway sets with Legacy be just as sought after? 

For those looking for examples of all the different models, I guess maybe the electronics could be secondary.  For me though, I look at the total package, and Auto Mode was a huge part of it.  Not that I don't like my Legacy R27 set with the commandable door openings, but I think I like Auto Mode better than the opening doors in a broad sense.

-Dave

@Dave45681 posted:

Not that I disagree with either of you guys, the MTH subway sets were for the most part a home run.

But I need to wonder, is a subway set without DCS and the Auto Mode feature still as desirable as the MTH models with those features?  My understanding is that the subway sets have a special board that allows that, i.e., it's not just dropping a subway set sound file into a standard Proto 2.0 or 3.0 (or 3/2, whatever the latest board is) electronics package.

Would the same subway sets with Legacy be just as sought after? 

-Dave

 

Each brand has its pluses and minuses. With MTH you get auto mode which is awesome however you only get 9 stops on the respective route. With Lionel you don't get auto mode however you do get the entire route with all the stops for the route. On lionel, you'd have to create a recording and do the buttons to play the announcements and the doors. I personally like the auto mode of the MTH sets honestly since you program it and left it do its thing. To answer your question, in my opinion I don't think they would as sought after unless lionel comes up with there own version of auto mode. 

@BillYo414 posted:

Yeah I meant Williams. 

Don't worry about it. It happens to me all the time.

@Hudson J1e posted:

Don't worry about it. It happens to me all the time.

I was so confused when I read about it being a typo haha I don't know what happened there.

I have bought and sold many engines and freight cars by MTH and Lionel  and now they are gone, I don't even think about them. 

Why am I going to worry about a train I sold some years ago or yesterday. If anybody is worried about it go buy yourself a new train. Problem solved!!!!!

Dave

I think I end up being in the buy more so than the sold.  When I tire of something or it doesn't work 100% right, it seemingly goes on a shelf to be fixed "later" but later rarely comes.  There have been 4 engines in total that I somewhat regret selling, 3 Lionel Odyssey demonstrators (bought for investment purposes, bad idea) and a CNW Premier PS2 E8 ABA.  Oddly enough I bought the CNWs on blow out and sold them at a profit.  I have bought a few newer E8's that are PS3s and enjoy those.