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Working on clockwork/windup trains is a subject that comes up once in a great while on this forum.  I realize that those of us who are fans of clockwork are a small niche in the world of operating & collecting O gauge trains, and I suppose that people tinkering on their windups are a niche within a niche!  However, the finicky little mechanisms can be repaired, and it is my hope to use this thread to encourage others to tackle those repairs.

As an introduction, I'm going to post some pictures from a project I did a few years ago, a little Ives No. 6 that I bought at a train show for twenty bucks.  The locomotive was missing a wheel, the cowcatcher was broken off, and the motor looked like it had exploded.  In fact, a gear had stripped out, which had allowed the rapid release of the energy stored in the mainspring.  The first step in getting the locomotive running was to get the damaged parts out of the motor:

IvesNo6B4

In this case, the motor did not need to be completely disassembled.  The mainspring was removed, the remaining wheel on the drive axle unscrewed (one very nice feature of Ives clockworks), and the sideplates popped loose from the round crossmembers at the front of the motor. 

Ives clockworks typically use a round crossmember to hold the sideplates together.  The crossmember has a smaller diameter area machined on each end that passes through a hole in the motor's sideplate.  The end of it is swaged (or peened) over to hold everything together.  It isn't unusual to have to drill these out, and machine new crossmembers in order to reassemble the motor.  In this case, I was fortunate that the sideplates came loose from the crossmembers without having to drill them.  

The motor itself had a couple of issues.  First off was the stripped gear:

StrippedGear

Now, this has been quite a few years ago, and I've had a lot of windups go across the workbench since then!  However, to the best I can remember, I reused the big gear and the shaft, and replaced the pinion gear... but for the life of me, I can't remember what that gear came from!  It wasn't from an Ives motor, and it is wider than the original gear - but, it is the same pitch and number of teeth, so that is what was important.  I pressed the gearset off the shaft and pressed the pinion out of the big gear (they are two separate parts that are swaged together).  The "new" pinion was turned down on one end to fit inside the big gear, and the two joined together.  The gearset was then pressed back on the intermediate shaft:

RepairedGear

With that problem solved, I had to turn my attention to the next problem, one that is common to Ives clockworks - the governor was broken.  Ives motors have a spring wire that is formed into a shape to work as a centrifugal governor, and that spring wire is soldered to the governor shaft.  The spring expands at speed and strikes a crossmember, which keeps the motor from overspeeding.  It is very common for that spring to come unsoldered, or break, and often it is missing altogether.  In this case, it was missing.  I've never had good luck making replacements, so I decided to adapt a Marx centrifugal governor to the motor.  This particular Ives motor is considerably narrower than a Marx motor, so it was necessary to shorten the Marx gear/shaft, and machine a new end on it.  In a case of "It's better to be lucky than good", the Marx governor gear is the same pitch and tooth count as the Ives.  The picture below shows (from left to right) the stock Ives governor pinion (missing the spring), the modified Marx governor, and a stock Marx governor for comparison:

3Governors

The Marx governor is meant to rotate inside a drum, so I soldered a Marx governor drum to the inside of the Ives motor.. which is a bit tricky to do with a partially assembled motor:

SomeAssemblyReq

Once that was done, the intermediate shafts and modified governor were installed and the motor reassembled:

InstalledGovernor

Now, I was still missing a drive wheel.  I didn't have an Ives driver in the parts box, but I found an American Flyer clockwork driver that matched the diameter of the Ives wheels, and had a very similar spoke style.  If you look close, you can see that it is different, but for this project it was close enough.  However, the problem is that the Ives drivers are threaded so they screw onto the drive axle, and this driver wasn't.  I had to bore the driver out, machine a hub out of brass, and install it in the AF wheel.

This is the AF wheel after being bored out.  A smaller diameter is used on the outside than on the inside:

Wheel1

The hub was machined out of yellow brass.  The upper end would go to the inside of the wheel.  It was necessary to counterbore the inside so that the wheel would sit on the right spot on the axle, keeping everything in gauge.  The other end was machined slightly smaller to fit in the smaller hole on the outside of the wheel:

Hub2

The hub was installed into the wheel, and the outer end swaged to fasten the wheel to the hub:

Wheel3

And that was the majority of the work done.  The oddball driver was given a quick coat of dark red paint in an attempt to match the original wheels.  As mentioned earlier, the cowcatcher had been broken off the body at some time in the past, so I ground the broken area smooth and touched it up with a bit of black paint to hide it.  I like the way the loco looks without the cowcatcher, like an old-timey 0-4-0 switcher running around the layout!

FinishedIvesOnTrack

The locomotive runs nice and slow with the Marx governor, which is more of a happy accident than any credit to my engineering skills.  The little Ives has a LOT of miles under its belt, having been rebuilt and running for 7 years as of this writing.   Hopefully it will be running in another two years for its 100th birthday!

Anyone else have clockwork repairs they would like to share?  Maybe something that is in need of repair?  I've got plenty on my shelf to be worked on...

Attachments

Images (10)
  • IvesNo6B4
  • StrippedGear
  • RepairedGear
  • 3Governors
  • InstalledGovernor
  • Wheel1
  • Hub2
  • Wheel3
  • SomeAssemblyReq
  • FinishedIvesOnTrack
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On this motor, it's not a problem at all.  Hook the inner end to the catch on the mainspring hub (that can be the toughest part), then use the key to wind the mainspring into place.  There is a hook bent on the outer end of the mainspring that just wraps around one of the crossmembers, so when the mainspring is almost completely wound into the motor, hook the end and finish winding.  It helps to wear leather gloves and eye protection because the end of the mainspring can whip around with some force at times.  But, other than being careful to avoid the loose end, it is just about that easy.

Now, a Hafner... that's a whole 'nother story!  

Last edited by WindupGuy

Hi, I am looking for help repairing a windup Hafner train, circa 1942.  I see your name is James.  You may be the James Pekarek I've already made contact with on Facebook (?) But if not, this Hafner train was a Christmas gift to my mother when she was 3.  She always said how hard it was to get metal toys at that time, and the only reason she did was because my grandfather was an employee at the store where it was sold and he snagged it for her.  Anyway, it ran well for years, on in to the 21st century.  I played with it as a child at Christmas under the tree, and then my children did as well.  But in the last few years, although the engine runs OK by itself, it can barely pull one car, let alone the whole train.  I'd like to keep it working and pass it on to my youngest son, who loves it.  I'd love for someone who knows what they're doing to look at it and see what can be done.  From my research, it seems like maybe the windup mechanism just needs cleaned.  I live in Ohio, so if you know someone is this part of the country, you could recommend them, or maybe you would be willing to look at it.  Of course, I would compensate you for your time.  And one more thing--I think my son may have ever so slightly bent one or two pieces of the track when playing with it--the track doesn't lay quite flat now, but it's very slight.  So if that's something you could do to, that would be great, but my main interest is to get the engine to where it can pull all the cars again.  The train is a meaningful part of our family history.  Thanks, Linda

Great work James. It sure is satisfying getting a clockwork loco running again.

I’ve been repairing a few Hornby mechanisms. These have been stripped down and every part cleaned and repaired if required. They were all rusty from having sat in an open air shed on a farm for many years. I just need to make some loco bodies for them next! 033C5570-B78C-41A4-B099-41BA151EEEEE

Next on the list is a Hornby Flying Scotsman mechanism. Will be interesting as it’s the biggest mech I will have attempted to repair.

It has a broken ratchet pawl. So I’ll have to make a new one from some brass flat bar.. time to get the files out I guess...5A2D61AB-BCE5-4C4B-8A1A-491E03C453C6

Look forward to seeing more of your clockwork repairs!

Attachments

Images (2)
  • 033C5570-B78C-41A4-B099-41BA151EEEEE
  • 5A2D61AB-BCE5-4C4B-8A1A-491E03C453C6
Last edited by Jamie Thompson

Great work James. It sure is satisfying getting a clockwork loco running again.

I’ve been repairing a few Hornby mechanisms. These have been stripped down and every part cleaned and repaired if required. They were all rusty from having sat in an open air shed on a farm for many years. I just need to make some loco bodies for them next! 033C5570-B78C-41A4-B099-41BA151EEEEE

Next on the list is a Hornby Flying Scotsman mechanism. Will be interesting as it’s the biggest mech I will have attempted to repair.

It has a broken ratchet pawl. So I’ll have to make a new one from some brass flat bar.. time to get the files out I guess...5A2D61AB-BCE5-4C4B-8A1A-491E03C453C6

Look forward to seeing more of your clockwork repairs!

Jamie, unless you have posted the wrong photo, that 6 coupled mech is a Bing geared wind mech from the late 1920s-early 1030s.



Mark

I found all of this very interesting, somewhat scary (to me at least!) and helpful to know. I have one Hornby loco which runs fine and hope it stays that way. If this helps any of you as a resource, I found a guy on YouTube who posts some windup repairs. His name is Willy Dahm. Here is a link to one of his videos.

Tom

Last edited by PRR8976
@jbryan2809 posted:

I have an American Flyer #10 windup. When I wind it up it will run for a while then click and lock up.  I was wondering if that sounds like a problem that can be repaired and if there is someone on the forum who would be willing to do the repair.  

Hi there ! and thanks for the tag @Mallard4468

@jbryan2809 that just sounds like something is binding and a full wind has enough energy to overcome the stiction , but as it winds down naturally the stored energy is less ... I would look for obvious things like a dirt or grease build up on cogs and in between gears and frame etc , also if your particular #10 has siderods on the wheels check to see they are straight and slip thru the casting chests at the front without catching ... If your loco has been well abused over the years look between the wheels and the frame for a buildup of hairs or fibres which might have build up on the axles and be trapped, this can be cut away with a thin blade slipped and worked in there.

Wind it up slightly and hold the wheels and let it operate very slowly ( or simply turn the wheels with your fingers ) and inspect the surface and teeth of all of the gears and pinions, a small chunk or tooth bent over or worn badly slightly can cause interference as well ( binding) .

Cleaning will most likely solve the issue, to me it sounds like interference with unloading somewhere , oh and dont forget to check the operation of the brake lever out the back , it could be that there is crud there preventing it from being fully moved into the full "off" position and when jolting on the track its enough to engage it ( highly unlikely , but possible if its a poofteenth clearance between off and on )

A good clean and lubrication is your first step ... if you can remove the motor from the body then a good ultrasonic bath with some solvent ( weak ammonia and dish soap )  will do the best job , failing that a good spray with an electrical contact cleaner and a scrub with a fine dental brush  ... If you are using any "wet " method its advisable to be able to have compressed air on standby for a really thorough drying afterwards ... old stuff rusts quickly! then a sparse lubrication with a good modern synthetic clock oil on pivot points and axles , put a small drop along the edge of the mainspring and wind and unload the motor a few times, this will help that little drop spread over the mainspring a little, you don't want enough to "wet" the spring at all, just enough to form a miniscule barrier to prevent future rust ( this step is optional and I recommend only doing it if you can grasp the context of a "little" anything more than a molecular sheet will attract and hold dust in the spring which is less than ideal !)

Hope that helps some ?

Not only are Hafner mainsprings a pain to replace (due to their location inside a "basket"), my experience is that in a significant number of cases, the problem isn't a broken spring, but a broken mainspring hub.  The originals are die-cast and can suffer from zinc pest, resulting in failure.  You can't determine if it is the mainspring or the mainspring hub that is broken until the mainspring is removed...

A broken Hafner mainspring hub:

HafnerAlum1



The repaired gear/mainspring hub assembly.  The original steel catch, shaft, and brass gear are used, with a new two-piece mainspring hub machined out of brass and soldered to the gear:

HafnerAlum3

Attachments

Images (2)
  • HafnerAlum1
  • HafnerAlum3

That could very well be the problem. The visible end of the spring is intact, so something is broken at the internal end. Seems unlikely that the spring could have broken somewhere in the middle.

Once I knock down a few other projects in the pile, I'll likely take a crack at this. Looks daunting, however, if I'm honest.

PD

Hello everyone, I am new to the forum.

Jbryan2809: I have a #10 that pops like you describe. Runs good though otherwise.

I have a very small test track layout with some American Flyer and Hafner locomotives (with cars). I love it.

Been through Lionel, MTH and the modern stuff, but really now like the wind-ups. Sure would like to know what you know about repairs Wind Up Guy and Fatman. Maybe someday I'll learn to tear one apart and fix it! So far, mine aren't broken. I have about 8 or 9 locomotives in my collection so far. I did fix the light bulbs on my three Hafners...they work good now.

I was wondering if there is anyone in my neck of the woods (northeastern Indiana). Would be nice to collaborate on the hobby of wind up train-ing. Feel free to write my email which is published on my "Wind-Up1012". Thanks.

In the meantime, I may put on a show with my local library...for the train buffs and kids who would enjoy the show. I love the tink, tink, tink, of the Hafner bells that sound when running.

Thanks for any feedback.

Kenneth.

Hi Kenneth Glad to have another interested in the "wrist work out " club ! .. These electric guys are just lazy !

( seriously I like all sorts lol)

James is more your guy with American Locos, as they are pretty thin on the ground here in Sunny Australia and what he doesnt know , well pretty much no-one else does  either .... he's pretty modest tho so would never say that himself. Grab a copy of his book and that will be a good start .

Wind ups/Clockwork can be addictive , and I think a lot of the charm comes from their beautiful simplicity, mixed with some serious craftsmanship ... I think with most clockwork repair, you learn by "doing" , spring replacement/repair is probably the most common task you will encounter, but naturally if something has been well used and loved over a long period of time , then things will wear out and cogs/gears might need replacing ... so if you go down that path your greatest assets will be several "Junkers" to scavenge bits and pieces off

Its probably best to indulge your inner kid and regress to that 6 year old that simply HAS to pull something apart ... grab a cheap Marx or Hafner in crappy condition that no-one wants at a yard sale or ebay and spend a weekend pulling it completely apart .. the goal isnt necessarily to see if it goes back together again ,  but mainly to see and experience how it comes APART ... and that way you wont be experimenting on something of value you might get down the track ... edge grinding/levering the peened spacer rods which hold the chassis sides together is a good skill you will need for pressed motors etc and best to practice on something you care nothing about lol ..

If you are handy with a lathe that will be a skill for advanced fabrication if you really want to go there ... but for most common stuff repair/replace will suffice

Happy Windings!

@WindupGuy posted:

Kenneth, glad to have another windup enthusiast here!  Feel free to ask any repair questions you have, and hopefully one of us will be able to help you out.

- James

Many thanks, James. Nice people here, nice hobby...my Lionel I would run for several minutes and wonder as the unit went around; in wind-up, one runs for a few rounds and then sits and ponders...winds again, ponders more. Peaceful.

-Kenneth.

@Fatman posted:

Hi Kenneth Glad to have another interested in the "wrist work out " club ! .. These electric guys are just lazy !

( seriously I like all sorts lol)

James is more your guy with American Locos, as they are pretty thin on the ground here in Sunny Australia and what he doesnt know , well pretty much no-one else does  either .... he's pretty modest tho so would never say that himself. Grab a copy of his book and that will be a good start .

Wind ups/Clockwork can be addictive , and I think a lot of the charm comes from their beautiful simplicity, mixed with some serious craftsmanship ... I think with most clockwork repair, you learn by "doing" , spring replacement/repair is probably the most common task you will encounter, but naturally if something has been well used and loved over a long period of time , then things will wear out and cogs/gears might need replacing ... so if you go down that path your greatest assets will be several "Junkers" to scavenge bits and pieces off

Its probably best to indulge your inner kid and regress to that 6 year old that simply HAS to pull something apart ... grab a cheap Marx or Hafner in crappy condition that no-one wants at a yard sale or ebay and spend a weekend pulling it completely apart .. the goal isnt necessarily to see if it goes back together again ,  but mainly to see and experience how it comes APART ... and that way you wont be experimenting on something of value you might get down the track ... edge grinding/levering the peened spacer rods which hold the chassis sides together is a good skill you will need for pressed motors etc and best to practice on something you care nothing about lol ..

If you are handy with a lathe that will be a skill for advanced fabrication if you really want to go there ... but for most common stuff repair/replace will suffice

Happy Windings!

Hi Fatman! Thanks for such a nice letter. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eeeiiighht. Go! "Wrist work out club"...nice. I'm glad I can count to eight... :-)

Thank you for the link to James' book and for all the good information on working on/repairing mechanisms. I'll be thinking on getting started with repairs, but my repair days will be later for sure. My locos are running good now. I have a American Flyer #16 that winds good and runs good without load, but is weak on the rail. Is this a spring weakness issue or maybe a rubbing issue? Just wondering. Thanks. Bought another one to replace my #16 and will use the former one for show and lectures.

I'm all woundup. Going to go run around the house eight times.

-Kenneth.

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