Ha, got it.
Composing is so bad the last few days...sigh....take #3; roll it...
Page #2 of that Rivarossi thread now has a video of how slow it can run. And with a decent load too. Mind you, this is a model kit, much like a static 1:24 model car kit. I imagine the factory assembled ones may look even better? I know if I built this 15-20 years ago it would be better.
https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...18#80551019583199818
I know it isn't in hand, but what is metal and what isn't? Can you tell?
No detail?!! I'm near ready to change my name to Count DeRivetz 
This is the best mock up look I tried out imo. NYC looking? I didn't try for it.
I broke a post for the valve gear...a metal post.
In fairness I also broke a line in plastic. Engineer side near the cab, a straw over the break. Not easily noticed, Ill get to it.
Nothing has broke while being handled for running, oiling, etc. I didn't even use a cradle. 2 years old now, run very often.
I can repair the plastic line easy. But the metal post will take a #2 screw or smaller to repair the valve gear. So, easier to repair most detail "crunches" is another benefit of plastics ....at times. Delrin detail and the line wouldn't be broken.
The onion stack doesn't belong (mock ups),that #4 on the boiler didn't cut it. Neither did the can't graphic decal that replaced the aged to a crackle 382 decals. Remember, the camera is ruthless in revealing even the smallest flaws. Things always look better in person. Dull coat it and the plastic shine is history. (The onion stack is the top of a doll house oil lamp)
Attachments
Images (4)
Adriatic posted:
Another reason I'm willing to fold on this is plastic can be kitbashed more easily.( Note, getting glue to stick to some old Scout bodies is something of a mystery. I've tried four super glues, JBweld, DAP epoxy, Radio Shack epoxy(best so far), contact cement, and even white glue and silcone Shoe-Goo, but none will stick well enough to not fall apart while running. Another Scout glued with no issue...???
For plastics of the time you need to use the glue of the time. 
Doug
Attachments
Images (1)
Great video of your treasure Adriatic !
You are a man of skill and vision...
pretty dam good with a camera too.
Lionel did a steamer in plastic that has not yet been mentioned...
It has been around for many years in many reincarnations...in plastic.
The 4-4-0.
Many hobbyists have had,or still have one.
It has been cosmetically "improved", kit bashed and enjoyed by some for almost as many generations as diecast.
Perhaps Lionel could "enhanse" this model as a new beginning in plastics. Bachmann did a museum quality model in G scale, the "centennial " 4-4-0 in their "Spectrum" line.
There are probably more 4-4-0 owners than there are 773's.
Notice I said 773 and not F3s.
I would not even venture a guess at the thousands of PLASTIC shell diesel F3s that are still going strong.
Switching sides for just a second, no plastic loco survived my childhood. Not my two plastic motors, not the steel framed, not the two alcos, not the gang car, ballast tamper, fire fighter, army missle engine, not the Erie SW..none. But the diecast that didn't die in the floods (3..4 more dead) all run today and bodies are intact. But I loved each and played them all till death by Hell(me) or high water. Every engine needed new bushing at least once, and yes I was allowed to use oil. From Dad's car's dipstick if needed. As an adult, I likely wouldn't have an issue with any.
The firefighter was a fairly delicate piece, maybe played with most and lasted quite a few years for sure. I think a flood took care of the motor with rust and mom made me toss it. Anyhow, I think it is comparable to the Rivarossi in delicacy.
If I had a kid, I would not want to give them a plastic loco. I would want it to be diecast so I was less likely to be wasting a decent sum of money.
But I am not a kid and have none and have learned to handle most plastics without incident. I still want die cast, but plastic won't kill me or my love of trains. It's in "addition to" desire, not an either/ or.
I sarcastically mentioned a 4-4-0 as a General (an 1800s "American" in old proto-slang). I just figured the details were better than the Scout types and even hardcore die cast fans might have one (scouts actually predate the plastic versions, but the plastics sort of took the name over outside of "tca-speak" imo)(plus I thought all "real" scouts only had a 2 wheel pilot. I don't recall a plastic engine other than the American/General with a 4 wheel pilot, but may I missed it. But I thought there was some 1900s 4-4-0s..?. I didn't learn most of what I know in adulthood, and took a 40+year break from learning or really thinking about trains except at Christmas. Especially ones I did'nt own or have anymore. I don't spend a whole lot of effort learning what I don't know unless I get stumped trying to help myself or others... and then there is that darn human factor involving the word oops.)
...but I do think you are pretty much correct, and I think it was Post cereal that commissioned those plastic scouts and Lionel had taken an unexpected dip in red ink and it did help ... except for the reputation those plastic motors developed; that didn't help. I think the cereal was an early unsweetened or lightly sweetened version of what became Super Sugar Crisp aka "Sugar Bear" or "Super Crisp" or similar last I saw a box. Back to reputation, you gotta wonder how much that may have contributed to falling sales all through the 60s as well. (Post Toasties..or was that their "pop tart"?)
Thank you for the glue tip... if it is still made, I'll try it.(I can't look yet or this text will vanish.)
I once used a great "Household contact cement" (that is the name) but I forget the brand, got it at Ace hardware in the early or mid 80s and used it all up about 4 years ago on some very cool vintage ceramic ashtrays that got knocked off a display shelf. It applies thick ?(thicker than DAP, and no need to wait like DAP ) It spreads easy squeezed between parts, holds well in about 2 minutes, cured overnight or so it becomes dishwasher safe. It is "infection puss yellow"; very opaque. I tested it on a coffee cup handle when I bought it and I still use the cup, last weekend in fact. So 30 years of coffee and the dishwasher at least once a month, occasional microwave, and a full, opened but capped glue tube still good..? I sure hope it is still made ,lol.
This is what needs the glue... a fantasy mine engine...in the rough.
Attachments
Images (1)
Adriatic, I was just kidding around about the glue. I remember when I was young that was the go to glue in the junk drawer,my mom used it for everything.
Doug
I' ve had great success with 2 part epoxy by Loctite. (Especially if you are going for that yellow flem look). Very good adhesion.
justakid posted:Great video of your treasure Adriatic !
Referencing the "scout" locomotive, it was built by a cereal company. It was a new venture striving to keep the Lionel brand alive.
Remember when you got a plastic toy in your cereal box?
It worked...thousands sold. They did save the Lionel brand through some very troubled times. And there are many happy " scout" owners out there that cherish that little steamer.
The Scout locomotive I was referring to was built in 1948. But I probably should have said plastic-bodied postwar steamer based on the diecast Scout body. That’s more accurate. That plastic body popped up at other times during the postwar and modern era, but is only cherished by those who had one.
Would 3 Railers accept plastic steam engines ? Ummmm .......... Yes
Here is what I have in My Collection
243 Scout Type Plastic
Polar Express 0-8-0 Plastic
1666 2-6-2 Die-Cast
2025 2-6-2 Die-Cast
Sure, We would all like to have Big Heavy Hudsons and Berkshires in our collections. But Lionel and other manufactures have made many Locomotives to reach a broad range. I would bet that many reading this forum have a few 2-4-2 Scout type Locomotives in their collection.
The 2025 I found in an Antique Store.
The Polar Express I bought new at a Hobby Shop.
The 1666 I got from my Ex-Mother-in-Law. It was a Junker that I had to get parts to get her up and running.
The 243 Scout I picked up at a Yard Sale for $30 Bucks about 35 Years ago. Along with the Engine was the 6812-1 Track Maintenance Car, 6519 Allis-Chalmers Car, 6465 Cities Service Tank Car, and a 6017 Caboose. This was the Lionel Set No. 1631WS from 1960. ( no original box ) And, Yes, for those of you who notice I Swapped the Tender for the 243 with the 1666. The Tender with the 243 is a junker I picked up for $2 Bucks. It was missing one of the trucks, and the foot step on the back corner was broken. ( Notice the crack above Lionel. )
Steve
Attachments
Images (4)
I'm just as guilty on throwing terms around, I just realized how deep we were getting. And if a newb ie is reading, it's a bit straighter now. Not likely perfect but better
I thought it was later in the plastic intro, but I could be easily be wrong as (I) implied. I'm coming to terms with my great memory getting old, lol. Plus that insomnia bit is back. Gonna battle it right now...later all.
Where is your main rod?
That plastic body popped up at other times during the postwar and modern era, but is only cherished by those who had one.
There are people who collect those small locomotives that we loosely call "Scouts".
Some of them are rather difficult to find in nice condition. That is what makes collecting fun.
My first train was a cast metal engine Scout. I have a boxed set with a cast engine.
...but I do think you are pretty much correct, and I think it was Post cereal that commissioned those plastic scouts and Lionel had taken an unexpected dip in red ink and it did help ... except for the reputation those plastic motors developed; that didn't help. I think the cereal was an early unsweetened or lightly sweetened version of what became Super Sugar Crisp aka "Sugar Bear" or "Super Crisp" or similar last I saw a box. Back to reputation, you gotta wonder how much that may have contributed to falling sales all through the 60s as well. (Post Toasties..or was that their "pop tart"?)
Not a story with which I am familiar. Is there somewhere I can read about this?
Post cereals was a product of General food company later aquired by Kraft foods and then ultimately spun off to become Post Consumer Brands.
General Mills has pretty much remained General Mills since it was founded in 1858
MPC was aquired by General Mills at the same time they aquired Lionel.
MPC and Lionel were two totally seperate holdings of General Mills
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel,_LLC
Nice link that covers the Lionel, General Mills era.
Not I, no way.
justakid posted:
Post cereals was a product of General food company later aquired by Kraft foods and then ultimately spun off to become Post Consumer Brands.
General Mills has pretty much remained General Mills since it was founded in 1858
MPC was aquired by General Mills at the same time they aquired Lionel.
MPC and Lionel were two totally seperate holdings of General Mills
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel,_LLC
Nice link that covers the Lionel, General Mills era.
I am not following, does this have something to do with "Post Cereals commissioning plastic scouts"?
General Mills made a deal to acquire the train line from the Lionel Corp in 1969-70. Lionel made a fair number of plastic sfeam locomotives in the 1950's and 1960's, nothing to do with General Mills /Post.
MPC (General Mills) was then in the train business for itself. The 1970 product line already had some improvements over what was being made in 1968 & 1969.
Sorry,
Adriatic mentioned Post Cereals, and you C.W. Butfle related you had never heard of them being involved in trains.
Post Cereals a division of GENERAL FOODS was NOT involved with toy trains.
Lionel...a division of GENERAL MILLS was involved in the manufacture of toy trains.
GENERAL FOODS and GENERAL MILLS are two different companies.
justakid posted:Sorry,
Adriatic mentioned Post Cereals, and you C.W. Butfle related you had never heard of them being involved in trains.
Post Cereals a division of GENERAL FOODS was NOT involved with toy trains.
Lionel...a division of GENERAL MILLS was involved in the manufacture of toy trains.
GENERAL FOODS and GENERAL MILLS are two different companies.
I think what C.W. and I are confused about is your statement: “Referencing the ‘scout’ locomotive, it was built by a cereal company. It was a new venture striving to keep the Lionel brand alive.”
What cereal company are you talking about? And when?
We’re not aware of any cereal company being involved with the plastic Scouts in the period between 1945 and 1969. The first plastic Scout would have been made in 1948.
Guess I mis-spoke
In 1969 Lionel sold the tooling for its then-current product line and licensed the Lionel name to General Mills ( a cereal company) by the end of the 1969 year General Mills owned all of Lionels' tooling and negotiated a Lionel name 10 year license agreement
They then operated Lionel as a division of one of their subsidiaries Model Products Corporation, or MPC, beginning in 1970.
General Mills did not buy the company.
I am not aware of the time frame when scout locomotives were produced.
I have heard the MPC ERA referenced as "more plastic crap" and some posts reference the scout as a "bad" example of plastic as an engine medium, and an MPC product (I guess they are wrong too). Fundimensions a subsidiary of General Mills produced a great deal of plastic products through the Lionel brand.
My bad..I'll remove the comment.
General Mills is a multi-national company with many subsidiaries, and they are from their very beginning, to this day, a cereal company.
justakid posted:Guess I mis-spoke
In 1969 Lionel sold the tooling for its then-current product line and licensed the Lionel name to General Mills ( a cereal company) by the end of the 1969 year General Mills owned all of Lionels' tooling and negotiated a Lionel name 10 year license agreement
They then operated Lionel as a division of one of their subsidiaries Model Products Corporation, or MPC, beginning in 1970.
General Mills did not buy the company.
I am not aware of the time frame when scout locomotives were produced.
I have heard the MPC ERA referenced as "more plastic crap" and some posts reference the scout as a "bad" example of plastic as an engine medium, and an MPC product (I guess they are wrong too). Fundimensions a subsidiary of General Mills produced a great deal of plastic products through the Lionel brand.
My bad..I'll remove the comment.
General Mills is a multi-national company with many subsidiaries, and they are from their very beginning, to this day, a cereal company.
Here ya go kid, a little ammo for your side. Photo of Lionel MPC box circa 1974 -1980 #6-9303 log dump car. Looking through a 1984 Greenberg's guide I see that they did indeed produce plastic Scout 2-4-2 locos now with smoke and a funky wheel/ drum under the tender full of beans or something that tumbled around inside the drum to simulate the sound of steam. I don't think the name Scout was still used but it would be hard to describe the thing as anything but a Scout. Kid the first Scout locos #1101 were indeed die-cast and even had a three position e-unit. The first plastic Scout was only two years later #1130 in 1950 with a body that looks more than a lot like a die-cast 2034. So it was not the cereal company that started the downward spiral but they did double down. However in 1967-68 Lionel was truly on the ropes and had General Mills not come along when they did the name could very well have vanished. A lot of thanks goes to a real estate developer and a rock and roll star also.
Attachments
No ammo, no sides.
Folks interested in the early years of Modern era Lionel would probably enjoy the book " Lionel Collector's Guide and History Volume IV (1970-1980). They are generally available for $10-15.
I went too long without sleep. I don't where I got Post from 
Maybe Post had another offer, I know one freebie was a billboard in the box, but I think that Frosted Flakes or Shredded Wheat.
Anyhow, after a 15hr nap I went to do some a.m. laundry and saw something in the laundry room that triggered my recalling the right answer (easier to do with the right info in today's search results, they are awful) So I played my little drum back up the stairs to check and here I am to recant, and restate...
It was a Quaker Oats offer that was the promotional plastic motored, plastic shell set.
Not free, but about $11 (?). Didn't search for a year. I saw my search results and pretty much stopped there. Pictures looked like one of Tandem Associates if you want to check further, PLUS, I know there are threads on this. Removing MPC from the search will likely narrow results well. (search gives my phone fits, too early for that frustration)
Time for an egg & toast
Attachments
Images (1)
Maybe Post had another offer
One company had Lionel trading cards. Don't know which one.
Another promotion were metal railroad heralds.
Lionel made many promotional sets, both before and after WW-II.
Project Roar Publishing has a very good book on the 1960's promotional sets. It is based on actual factory documentation, obtained when Lionel held an auction. I think it was around 2001.
For those interested in buying the book, they had shopworn copies available with a steep discount. Don't know if they have any left.
Steve24944 posted:
Polar Express 0-8-0 Plastic
The Polar Express I bought new at a Hobby Shop.
Steve
Who made this? I have never seen this before. I don't think it's a cataloged item. Can you provide the manufacturer and product number?
justakid posted:Here's a better review of the G scale loco and set.
The narrator is Australian. The point I'm trying to show is that this set was not produced by a big player train company. This set sells for a modest price
This set has extraordinary detail, is battery powered, Radio controlled, all at a price that won't break the bank. Yeah, they need help working out the bugs, improving performance. BUT,....they brought to market a train set made of Plastics, and they are not a big train company.
O scale now has "blue tooth" (rc) control. Could battery powered be on the horizon? Batteries are heavy.
O scale already has produced excellent sound quality. Most of the wheel,linkage, truck and coupler systems have been greatly improved.
Cost cutting by making cheaper dies and then increasing consumer costs could be part of the problems we experience today.
Limited repair/ replacement parts, no product support after 2 years, short longevity resulting in metal fatigue and failure, produced by 3rd party vendors who may or may not be concerned about quality control.
We grew up with toys that survived 3 generations or more of play.
Broke, repaired, worn, repaired again.
Today's generation is more acquainted with plastic products. The success of Lego is a good indicator of what can be accomplished in plastics.
My grandchildren play with RC "megatrax " cars and trains. All plastic.
If that is the train that is supposed to convince me then I change my answer from I would think about it to no The detail is nowhere near what high end steam locomotives in O have now. Even in G the locomotives I consider having the best details are made from brass. Unless someone can make something durable, with all of the detail and make it costs hundreds less I don't see people jumping at it.
MartyE posted:Steve24944 posted:
Polar Express 0-8-0 Plastic
The Polar Express I bought new at a Hobby Shop.
Steve
Who made this? I have never seen this before. I don't think it's a cataloged item. Can you provide the manufacturer and product number?
Marty, it’s the Lionel 0-8-0 that has been used in starter sets in recent years. I’m not sure why Steve posted it among his list of plastic steamers. This one has a diecast boiler with a plastic underbelly.
C W Burfle posted:Maybe Post had another offer
One company had Lionel trading cards. Don't know which one.
Another promotion were metal railroad heralds...
That's right, I'd completely forgotten about those. There was also a run of similar stamped-metal automobile-company crests, a couple of which I had as a kid. But I haven't seen an example of the railroad crests for many years, even at train shows.
The railroad heralds were a Post cereal premium.
an EBay search for "post cereal railroad signs" returned 93 lots.
They are out there.
Interesting topic for me. My love of toy trains started with a plastic Marx BigRail Work Train set. That was 1971. Around 1977 I got a Lionel Black River Freight set (good old MPC era)...plastic engine with no smoke unlike my Marx 1666 which still has the best smoke smell ever. Even worse were the plastic wheels on the freight cars. Now don't get me wrong...I loved both sets and still have them. The Marx still runs like new...the Lionel runs but definitely not like new. Do I want plastic steam engines today? In a word...NO. And I don't think Lionel or any manufacturer should put them in starter sets or anywhere else. Cheap is cheap and a steam engine deserves better. But that doesn't mean I won't hug the plastic steamers from my youth. But now....give me metal or give me....diesels. Lionel's Generals excepted...don't ask me why. BigRail
Jim R. posted:MartyE posted:Steve24944 posted:
Polar Express 0-8-0 Plastic
The Polar Express I bought new at a Hobby Shop.
Steve
Who made this? I have never seen this before. I don't think it's a cataloged item. Can you provide the manufacturer and product number?
Marty, it’s the Lionel 0-8-0 that has been used in starter sets in recent years. I’m not sure why Steve posted it among his list of plastic steamers. This one has a diecast boiler with a plastic underbelly.
I assumed that this 0-8-0 was a Plastic Body. I did not think it was Die-Cast metal.
Steve
Steve24944 posted:Jim R. posted:MartyE posted:Steve24944 posted:
Polar Express 0-8-0 Plastic
The Polar Express I bought new at a Hobby Shop.
Steve
Who made this? I have never seen this before. I don't think it's a cataloged item. Can you provide the manufacturer and product number?
Marty, it’s the Lionel 0-8-0 that has been used in starter sets in recent years. I’m not sure why Steve posted it among his list of plastic steamers. This one has a diecast boiler with a plastic underbelly.
I assumed that this 0-8-0 was a Plastic Body. I did not think it was Die-Cast metal.
Steve
Probably should have confirmed your information then before posting. Info was readily available on Lionel website:
My Bad
falconservice posted:If we can get a low-cost Grand Trunk Western model like the ones in the 6400 series back in the 1940's and 1950's, then plastic would be fine.
Andrew
GTW Passenger cars could be produced to match this GTW locomotive that are lightweight plastic and have very free-rolling axles on the trucks.
