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My understanding is:

Non-members are not able to visit all the "Halls" - some remain for members only (as they should). 

You would get to visit the manufacturer's exhibits/hall, as I understand - and more.

I don't know about children; they have not been allowed in the past (again, as it should be), but the new "civilian" access may allow that in those areas. 

Last edited by D500

So far there has only been vague and incomplete information about the public admission to the York Meet, other than what has been mentioned above..  Even the Eastern Division website has no mention of it yet.  I'm sure all the information will be included once the meet registration booklets are mailed out, which will also be on the website when it's released.  

At October's Meet the Eastern Division had a table in the lobby of the Orange Hall.  I'm guessing that is where non-members would register to attend in April for admission to the Orange and Purple Dealer Halls.

But as time is growing short, you can call for general Meet questions at 1-814-928-0196 or email meetchair@easterntca.com.

Also, children have always been allowed to attend the York Meet.  You list them on the registration form.

I don't know why anyone would go to York in April or October and not join the TCA on a 6 month trial membership.  It's only $20 and you can see all the halls.  You can only be a trial member once but since 2 halls is most likely going to cost you $14, why not spend the extra $6 and see all the halls?  You might get hooked and become a regular member.

-Greg

 

Traindiesel posted:

So far there has only been vague and incomplete information about the public admission to the York Meet, other than what has been mentioned above..  Even the Eastern Division website has no mention of it yet.  I'm sure all the information will be included once the meet registration booklets are mailed out, which will also be on the website when it's released.  

At October's Meet the Eastern Division had a table in the lobby of the Orange Hall.  I'm guessing that is where non-members would register to attend in April for admission to the Orange and Purple Dealer Halls.

But as time is growing short, you can call for general Meet questions at 1-814-928-0196 or email meetchair@easterntca.com.

Also, children have always been allowed to attend the York Meet.  You list them on the registration form.

I already registered last week. All the information is on the TCA Easterns' website.

All the above questions can be found there.

 

Buzz

None of the limited April Meet information listed on the website addresses public admissions, restrictions or pricing.  Only a small mention of the dealer halls being open to the public with the days and times on the first page of the Meet notice.  The last page with the Fairgrounds map shows the Orange Hall as the spot for the public to register.  But non-members will not have a Meet Notice to know that.

I don't know why anyone would go to York in April or October and not join the TCA on a 6 month trial membership.  It's only $20 and you can see all the halls.  You can only be a trial member once but since 2 halls is most likely going to cost you $14, why not spend the extra $6 and see all the halls?  You might get hooked and become a regular member.

Neither do I. If this information is accurate, then effectively they've opened the entire show to the general public.

Last edited by C W Burfle

Well, we're one day away from Feb. already and it appears that few in the hobby, and virtually no members of the general public, appear to have much of a real clue about what is open to who, and for how much and when, at the April York Meet. If the "open to public" thing was going to be widely promoted, they (whoever "they" are) have pretty much dropped the ball.

I will be there, eager to see how this all shakes out. My expectations in that regard are modest at best.

Yeah all 20 of them that might hear about it.

It's a bit early to start advertising to the locals.
I'd say that getting a mention in Lou Palumbo's Classic Toy Trains column is some really good PR.
When I was running advertising for a local show, I would have been thrilled to get a mention like that.

I just visited the Eastern Division web site.
They have a column about York by Lou Palumbo reproduced.
I missed any comment about the show being open to the pubic.

Even though the site identifies the column as being from the "current issue", it must be an older column.  (Nothing like an out of date web site!)

I also missed any information on the site itself.
If the Eastern Division is serious about opening the show to the public, the website should have already been updated.

C W Burfle posted:

Yeah all 20 of them that might hear about it.

It's a bit early to start advertising to the locals.

Considering most magazine lead times are 3 mos or more, they have fallen behind.  I imagine if they contacted OGR Allan Miller wouldn't have posted what he did.  The word should have gotten out by now via websites, magazines, and at minimal some of the forums.  This one here has a York only forum that we are posting in right now as well as a TCA section.  All free to publish the news. 

I want this to succeed to help maintain the hobby but it does seem a bit half hearted from the surface.  I'd love to be wrong and the big push is "right around the corner".  Then again so is the spring York meet / show.

Considering most magazine lead times are 3 mos or more, they have fallen behind.  I imagine if they contacted OGR Allan Miller wouldn't have posted what he did.  The word should have gotten out by now via websites, magazines, and at minimal some of the forums.  This one here has a York only forum that we are posting in right now as well as a TCA section.  All free to publish the news. 

Is OGR unaware?
It's my impression that they have been in on what's happening from the very beginning.

And I think you are discounting the column in CTT.

 

C W Burfle posted:

Considering most magazine lead times are 3 mos or more, they have fallen behind.  I imagine if they contacted OGR Allan Miller wouldn't have posted what he did.  The word should have gotten out by now via websites, magazines, and at minimal some of the forums.  This one here has a York only forum that we are posting in right now as well as a TCA section.  All free to publish the news. 

Is OGR unaware?
It's my impression that they have been in on what's happening from the very beginning.

And I think you are discounting the column in CTT.

 

I'm not discounting it but is that an advertisement?  Nope it's a column that if not written and submitted wouldn't be there.  Sure OGR has been aware of it.  Again it's still not an advertisement of a notice, it would be a column.  Relying on the hope that someone mentions it in their column isn't getting the word out proactively.  Either way I hope they do have a great deal of success.  I personally don't have a dog in this fight as I am a member and will continue to be one. 

Traindiesel posted:

None of the limited April Meet information listed on the website addresses public admissions, restrictions or pricing.  Only a small mention of the dealer halls being open to the public with the days and times on the first page of the Meet notice.  The last page with the Fairgrounds map shows the Orange Hall as the spot for the public to register.  But non-members will not have a Meet Notice to know that.

Brian,

I mis-spoke. I was alerted to register via an email sent to me by the Division. I clicked on the register link in the email i was sent. I believe there was some information about the hours for April York in the registration process.

Sorry for the mis-information.

Buzz

I have received no official word from the TCA Eastern Div. or the TCA itself about the April meet changes. I would have been happy to publish something to give it a bit of a "push" (many OGR readers are not online participants), but now it is simply too late because I am already working on our June/July issue and the previous issue are in production.

  Relying on the hope that someone mentions it in their column isn't getting the word out proactively. 

You assume that the ED didn't know the mention was coming. Maybe they did.
A mention in a column can be more valuable than an advertisement.

I will agree that notices to the magazines should have gone out.
You might be surprised about how often that is missed by show promoters.

The folks who have been doing a nice job of running the Eastern Division show as a closed one may not appreciate what should be done to promote an open show which includes:

Show notices to all the toy / train magazines (most have a schedule of shows column)
Flyers to area hobby shops and at other area shows. (flyer needs to be well designed / eye catching)
Press releases to all newspapers, radio stations and TV stations in the target areas
In the case of the ED/TCA, I'd include press releases to the toy / model train magazines too
Display advertising in appropriate local papers, usually the Sunday before the show (very expensive)

Then there is the possibility of billboards and lawn signs in the area of the show.   
We didn't do this when I was involved, but it is commonly done for shows in my area now, and seems to be very effective.

Allan Miller posted:

I have received no official word from the TCA Eastern Div. or the TCA itself about the April meet changes. I would have been happy to publish something to give it a bit of a "push" (many OGR readers are not online participants), but now it is simply too late because I am already working on our June/July issue and the previous issue are in production.

I agree with Allan on this.  I live at ground zero for all of this and I guarantee outside of the TCA, no more is known about York by the surrounding public now than last year.  You have to advertise to reach the public.  There are plenty of cheap newspapers (Penny Saver up north, The Advertiser here) to put out the word but I see nothing.  Unless the TCA plans on some kind of ad blitz in the weeks leading up to York, I don't see the attendance numbers going up in any meaningful way.  I guess we will know in a few months.  BigRail

Good Lord willing, I will be at the April meet and will have a thoroughly enjoyable time as I have at every meet I've been fortunate enough to attend since 1990 when I moved back to the mainland from Hawaii. I felt it was kind of neat to have a "special event" that benefited TCA members, just as many other special-interest groups have member-only events for their supporters. Sorry to see that go, of course, but we find ourselves living in a fast-changing society (unfortunately, in my personal opinion).

The Eastern Division has ALWAYS hosted an excellent event, and I thank them for the good times and fine memories they have provided.

GG1 2340 posted:
Traindiesel posted:

None of the limited April Meet information listed on the website addresses public admissions, restrictions or pricing.  Only a small mention of the dealer halls being open to the public with the days and times on the first page of the Meet notice.  The last page with the Fairgrounds map shows the Orange Hall as the spot for the public to register.  But non-members will not have a Meet Notice to know that.

Brian,

I mis-spoke. I was alerted to register via an email sent to me by the Division. I clicked on the register link in the email i was sent. I believe there was some information about the hours for April York in the registration process.

Sorry for the mis-information.

Buzz

Buzz, no problem at all.  In fact your reply caused me to go back to look deeper and I finally found the Meet Notice for April.  A few days ago they still had last October's Meet Notice posted.

To find it you have to drill down on the 'Registration' tab in the main menu of the ED website.  But on the meet notice there's only a small mention on the first page that the Meet is open to the public, but no details at all.

Also on the website they have a link to their Facebook page.  I don't do Facebook but I couldn't find any info about the York Meet there either.

I'm thinking what Bob Kazian said above could be true.

Well, here we go...I Googled "train shows", and got a site Trains.com. Lo and behold, they had: Billy Budd, Commonwealth Fire Hall, and Reliance Fire Hall all listed with links to all the details. All the ED has to do is submit the details for the York Fairgrounds Show.

I'd bet there are thousands that use this site to find shows.

With all the rules and regulations concerning public entry to York; how could that ever result in a positive outcome?  I understand the need for the restriction to public entry to only the two commercial halls. That is easy to manage, but how is the "only open to the public on specific days" going to succeed?  With day restriction rules added in as well the public will not bother to attend. If the ED is not willing to be more accommodating, they might as well just revert back to a members only meet and hope for the best.

With all the rules and regulations concerning public entry to York; how could that ever result in a positive outcome?  I understand the need for the restriction to public entry to only the two commercial halls. That is easy to manage, but how is the "only open to the public on specific days" going to succeed?  With day restriction rules added in as well the public will not bother to attend. If the ED is not willing to be more accommodating, they might as well just revert back to a members only meet and hope for the best.

Some people are never satisfied. Is this what they call, "the slippery slope"?
If the dealer halls were open from the beginning, then some folks would be saying its no good because the whole show has to be open.

Does the public come to shows where the first few hours are members only?..... the answer is yes.
This really isn't any different.

It's not difficult to put conditions on the hours.

The questions from the start has been: "Where will the show draw from", and "How much demand is there?".

IMHO, by April, with Christmas over, and nice weather coming, most of the general public is done with trains, leaving only the more serious enthusiasts. I don't think the show is going to draw "N" scale or "HO" scale folks, that leaves the "S" and "O" gauge folks who aren't members.

I think the October meet would draw more people.

Last edited by C W Burfle
C W Burfle posted:

I don't think the show is going to draw "N" scale or "HO" scale folks,

I'm afraid it WILL draw N and HO folks, who may think this is a Greenberg type show. Then, after they pay their $, they find little to no N and HO.

Better advertise:

First time the public is welcome to the TCA Train Meet...however, 2 days only, 2 buildings only, O and S gauge only. Only $14.

THe one thing the ED has to do is advertise and also put the word out to Ho and n scale vendors that they are welcome also. 

If the York show is strictly O gauge then the show will fail. Attendance has been going down over the years and it is getting to a point if it keeps up the future does not look bright. 

This will be my 63rd straight York and I want them to continue and to that it must change or die. 

We all have to encourage vendors who don't normally attend to do so this April and beyond. I model Ho now and I have a stake on getting the public to attend and having HO and N scale vendors to attend as sellers. 

Timonium show is mostly the smaller scales but there is many O gauge vendors and even a few O scale vendors and believe me the show was jammed with attendees. It was my second time at this show and believe I will go back. Plus there were many modular clubs from N scale to G. A couple of Ho clubs are huge and they looked incredible. Also one club who models European type trains and has a full catenary that looks amazing. Never seen a catenary system modeled on a modular layout before. The layouts and clinics are worth the visit.

 

It's looking more and more like the ED is going to advertise just like they did last October's Meet, by just hanging a banner on the fence outside the Fairgrounds.

But absent of details, I can see loooong lines at the Orange Hall public registration table, if they have to explain the different levels of pricing, the hall restrictions and the badge distribution to every single person who signs up!

Those security guards are going to have their hands full weeding out the correct badge holders for their building.  You just know more than a few non-members are going to try to enter the member halls regardless of the restrictions. (assuming there's a large crowd to begin with!)

Last edited by Traindiesel

The matter of gauges/scales being offered (or not) at York is rather important to the long-term success of this event once it is open to the public.

Whether we O and S gauge fans and supporters like it or not, HO and N are still the two most popular modeling scales, by far, and they also have traditionally ranked among the most under-represented scales at the York Meet (somewhat understandably given that it is and traditionally has been a Train Collectors Association event). This is especially true with current and new releases of HO and N product, not to mention Z and Large Scale.

Folks modeling in those scales may show up for one time when they see that the York Meet has some public days and hours, but they likely would not return again and they just as likely would quickly spread the word among their peers in those respective scales.

Traindiesel posted:

It's looking more and more like the ED is going to advertise just like they did last October's Meet, by just hanging a banner on the fence outside the Fairgrounds.

But absent of details, I can see loooong lines at the Orange Hall public registration table, if they have to explain the different levels of pricing, the hall restrictions and the badge distribution to every single person who signs up!

Those security guards are going to have their hands full weeding out the correct badge holders for their building.  You just know more than a few non-members are going to try to enter the member halls regardless of the restrictions. (assuming there's a large crowd to begin with!)

That's pretty how much I see it also Brian.

I think the ED is just praying and hoping the public shows up. It would help if the Mfgs. helped getting the word out. People don't show up by osmosis. 

The website made no sense to me, I'm new to the hobby and I went to "register online" but that was to join TCA, which I have no problem doing, but then there is no way to pay and register for the show because the link just takes me back to join the TCA again, the "online registration" does not work and is very confusing on what you are supposed to do

PSU1980 posted:

Registered and like Buzz indicted all the answers are on the official site - no need to speculate. 

I always enjoy going to York because the vendors and table holders were also members. Everyone I ever dealt with knew your name because of the name badges, membership and fellowship. Most table holders are polite and talk to you as members should. If there was a problem with a purchased item when you got home, you could always call the member and discuss the issue.

I have no problem letting the public attend to promote the hobby and hopefully get a person(s) to sign up and become a member.

Ive been to shows all over the country the last 30 years, and the York show is like no other show. Hopefully non members who attend see how extensive, large and friendly the show actually is.

Like someone earlier said, Thursday is the Big day anyway.

As for how the Eastern Division monitors and polices it, is up to them. There will always be bumps in the road with change.

Cant wait for April!

 

Buzz 

I honestly do not think we are going to see any difference in attendance because the Eastern Division is not doing the required advertising for a show like this.  A banner on the fence is not going to do anything.  They already missed the train magazines for March and April.  I get that everyone who runs the meet is a "volunteer" but why change the meet rules if your not going to tell anyone?  Once again...York Meet...the greatest train meet in the world no one ever heard of  BigRail

GG1 2340 posted:

Ive been to shows all over the country the last 30 years, and the York show is like no other show. Hopefully non members who attend see how extensive, large and friendly the show actually is.

Exactly the point! It was a special event unlike any other in the hobby. I'm afraid that it likely will lose that "special appeal" for many...current members, prospective members, etc.

I go to York because it's a unique O gauge mecca.  If would seem to me, more people in more halls translates to more revenue for everyone.  I"m OK with more people.  The game changer for me is if York ceases to be an O gauge mecca.  If the extensiveness of O gauge is replaced by other popular gauges and moves towards a mixed gauge show, I can get that experience a lot closer to home.  

I guess those who attend on Friday/Saturday will know first-hand how "successful" the new changes are -- however success is defined, presumably by increased registration numbers.

Somebody bragged recently they needed to park a mile away from a Greenberg show, and that was implying Greenberg knows how to attract a crowd.  Hopefully, that's NEVER gonna be the case for York... 'cause I've been quite happy with the crowd sizes in recent years (which is why I've been attending on Thursday), although registration numbers have been down from say 5 years ago.

I've always maintained York can't be all things to all people -- nor should it even try.  I think the EDTCA deserves lots of credit for trying some new changes, although it hasn't been 100% clear to me who they're trying to satisfy with these changes -- their own needs or somebody elses... 'cause I have nothing but positive things to say about the kind of show the EDTCA has conducted over the many years I've attended.

David

Last edited by Rocky Mountaineer

 although it hasn't been 100% clear to me who they're trying to satisfy with these changes -- their own needs or somebody elses.

It has been stated that the Eastern Division has been loosing money on the past few shows, and that they are looking to increase attendance so the show makes expenses, and to satisfy the big dealers who want an open show.

I think they should have raised prices for admission and for member tables. When compared to public shows in my area, the York show is way underpriced. (Don't know anything about dealer space pricing)

As an aside, I recently went to visit the web site of one of my favorite suppliers, Miniature Lamp Works.  Jill has posted that she will no longer be attending the York show, but her internet business will continue.

Last edited by C W Burfle
richabr posted:

If the extra time causes some dealers to arrive home too late in the evening it may force them to stay an extra night. The extra rooms and meals for the crew would be a considerable extra expense.

You can't have it both ways.  If you want a public show the hours need to be extended.  Careful what you wish for.

I expect the carnies (carnival folks) will be able to get the tent down and out of there in short order as they are used to that kind of thing.

C W Burfle posted:

Then they really can't complain about lost sales and the meet being public.

Did the little guys in the dealer halls ask for the show to be open to the public?

If they did or didn't is no longer the point as that change has been made.  Obviously enough folks made noise to get it changed.  Now those who did need to step up and follow the times setup.

If they did or didn't is no longer the point as that change has been made.  Obviously enough folks made noise to get it changed.  Now those who did need to step up and follow the times setup.

The Eastern Division may have to start enforcing their rule against leaving early. However, if they do, they can expect to loose more dealers and member table holders. It's a hard rule to enforce when you don't sell out your table space.

It's been a fun run and I've enjoyed York for almost 25 years now. I'm sure the internet has taken a big bite out of it. And many of us probably have all we want (or have run out of room). And how many Hudsons or F3's (an F7 really isn't that different) or GG1's can you have anyway? 

But the real issue is probably lack of new blood. People who didn't "grow up" with trains are much less likely to get involved, and we all know what happened to Lionel in the 1960's. You can't change that.

Gerry

 

Again regardless of who rallied for the rule change, it has been made.  It should be enforced.  If it doesn't work then things will be back to status quo and everyone can start cleaning up at 11 and be gone by 2.  They certainly won't "sell out" your table space leaving early either.

There are so many things that will get table holders upset and loose more dealers.  Higher table cost, which I believe you promoted, staying setup 2 hours longer, or the concession stand runs out of coffee.  Bottom line is the EDTCA is trying something.  If some of the dealers have a better idea maybe they should speak up if they haven't already. 

EDTCA tries something, people complain.  They do nothing, people complain.  They really are much like the manufacturers in a no win situation.

richabr posted:

I was told the driving force to this experiment was the manufacturers.

Having spoken with the principles the evening of that meeting I can confirm this was the case.

As for the casual sellers in the dealer halls, they will have the option to move to the member halls if they don't want to stay until 4PM on Saturday.

Pete

There are so many things that will get table holders upset and loose more dealers.  Higher table cost, which I believe you promoted, staying setup 2 hours longer, or the concession stand runs out of coffee.  Bottom line is the EDTCA is trying something.  If some of the dealers have a better idea maybe they should speak up if they haven't already. 

I suggested raising the price of member tables and admission. (Don't know enough about dealer space costs). The cost of the tables /admission has to be a very small component of the cost to do the York train show.

It has been a very long time since I've seen an Eastern Division financial report. Without seeing one, I am going to guess that the personnel costs of putting on the show are rather high. Eliminating Thursday, and going back to a two day show would eliminate a day's worth of security costs. Perhaps other costs too. Maybe the show would be profitable again as a two day show.

As for the casual sellers in the dealer halls, they will have the option to move to the member halls if they don't want to stay until 4PM on Saturday.

How does that work with the PA tax number issue?

 

The rules state you stay till 4pm in the dealer halls, if you don't want to abide to the rules, STAY HOME and let somebody else take your spot.

That's the problem, there is nobody to take your spot.

Sure, I agree that people who get tables should stay to the end.
Also, people shouldn't speed, jay walk, litter, and all sorts of other things.

That shouldn't be a problem since all the dealers are TCA members.  The tax issue is with the member halls being open to the public.

For years we've been told that people who are defined as "dealers" by the PA Tax Department have to be in the dealer halls and that they must have PA tax numbers. I guess that whatever agreement the ED made with the state to allow the public into the dealer halls changed that?

richabr posted:

I was told the driving force to this experiment was the manufacturers.

I realize I'm in the minority, but seeing what the manufacturers have is down on the list of the reasons that I go to York. Then again, I have some really large train stores near my house, unlike many of you.

I remember the Lionel exhibit years ago at the Philadelphia "World's Greatest Hobby" show. The exhibit was small (no layout), and the 2 guys manning it did not seem very welcoming to the folks attending. They looked, to me, like they wanted to be somewhere else. I don't remember what the others had, but I'm pretty sure they did not involve layouts.

Since the manufacturers don't actually sell stuff, how do they judge whether or not they had a "worthwhile show"? 

Joe Hohmann posted:
richabr posted:

I was told the driving force to this experiment was the manufacturers.

I realize I'm in the minority, but seeing what the manufacturers have is down on the list of the reasons that I go to York. Then again, I have some really large train stores near my house, unlike many of you.

I remember the Lionel exhibit years ago at the Philadelphia "World's Greatest Hobby" show. The exhibit was small (no layout), and the 2 guys manning it did not seem very welcoming to the folks attending. They looked, to me, like they wanted to be somewhere else. I don't remember what the others had, but I'm pretty sure they did not involve layouts.

Since the manufacturers don't actually sell stuff, how do they judge whether or not they had a "worthwhile show"? 

Excellent question, but the answer has already been determined on this forum; thereby forcing the EDTCA to open to the public.

C W Burfle posted:

That shouldn't be a problem since all the dealers are TCA members.  The tax issue is with the member halls being open to the public.

For years we've been told that people who are defined as "dealers" by the PA Tax Department have to be in the dealer halls and that they must have PA tax numbers. I guess that whatever agreement the ED made with the state to allow the public into the dealer halls changed that?

I guess it depends on what the definition of a dealer is.  Just because the small cottage industry guys have table space in the Orange Hall doesn't mean they're large dealers.  There are some table holders in the member halls that are similar sellers as them.

But we can't even get full info on the pubic admission policy, I doubt we'll ever know what deal the ED made with the state.

Joe Hohmann posted:

Well, here we go...I Googled "train shows", and got a site Trains.com. Lo and behold, they had: Billy Budd, Commonwealth Fire Hall, and Reliance Fire Hall all listed with links to all the details. All the ED has to do is submit the details for the York Fairgrounds Show.

I'd bet there are thousands that use this site to find shows.

I checked this list again. Still not listed. It's a FREE listing, for crying out loud!

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