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  Lionel will be at the Rocky Mountain Train show April 1st and 2nd. ...

@Berg posted:

I will still go, but I have to say, it's pretty sad that they can't bother to come to what is billed as the largest TCA event. The dealer hall is getting pretty sparce... The last 3 the member halls have out shined the dealer halls. Lots of missing dealers and manufacturers.

Lionel's presence has no bearing on my attendance or enjoyment of York.  However, their absence says to me that they take the buyers of their high dollar items for granted.  IMO, a manufacturer's presence at an event like York is about more building awareness and goodwill than short term profits.  I drive farther to get to York than Lionel does, and yet they're planning to go 2000 miles west...  Not a good look.

@Mallard4468 posted:

Lionel's presence has no bearing on my attendance or enjoyment of York.  However, their absence says to me that they take the buyers of their high dollar items for granted.  IMO, a manufacturer's presence at an event like York is about more building awareness and goodwill than short term profits.  I drive farther to get to York than Lionel does, and yet they're planning to go 2000 miles west...  Not a good look.

Maybe Lionel is tired of York.

Is it Lionel that doesn't want to go to York or York not wanting Lionel?

How come Lionel always gets the blame here?  I see a lot of dealers and some other manufacturers not attending but that doesn't seem to draw the ire of this group like Lionel.  I'm sure they have their reasons for not attending and as others have pointed out it doesn't change my going or not.  The only way it affects me is if I need to see if I can get a Legacy meeting going.

@MartyE posted:

Is it Lionel that doesn't want to go to York or York not wanting Lionel?

How come Lionel always gets the blame here?  I see a lot of dealers and some other manufacturers not attending but that doesn't seem to draw the ire of this group like Lionel.  I'm sure they have their reasons for not attending and as others have pointed out it doesn't change my going or not.  The only way it affects me is if I need to see if I can get a Legacy meeting going.

Less dealers due to BUILT TO ORDER, dealers don't have the excess inventory they once had.

@Arthur posted:

Less dealers due to BUILT TO ORDER, dealers don't have the excess inventory they once had.

Why would that be?  If the dealer orders 20 locomotives, whether BTO or not, what difference does that make?  Mr. Muffin, TW, Pat's and others are always ordering excess above what they have orders for.  They basically are just adding to the numbers built.  All that it means is Lionel doesn't have an excess sitting at the warehouse.

@MartyE posted:

Why would that be?  If the dealer orders 20 locomotives, whether BTO or not, what difference does that make?  Mr. Muffin, TW, Pat's and others are always ordering excess above what they have orders for.  They basically are just adding to the numbers built.  All that it means is Lionel doesn't have an excess sitting at the warehouse.

Not enough excess stock to make the trip to York worthwhile, can easily sell what they have on-line. That's why no more Trainland, Charles Ro, etc.

@Arthur posted:

Not enough excess stock to make the trip to York worthwhile, can easily sell what they have on-line. That's why no more Trainland, Charles Ro, etc.

This makes no sense. They buy what they think they can sell. I don’t really see this changing at the retailer level.

Are you implying before BTO they just bought a ton of stuff but now that it’s BTO they buy less?  If they bought 20 engines before, why wouldn’t they buy 20 now on top of the preorders which were always done anyways.

BTO does only one thing, keeps Lionel’s warehouse void of excess stock.

@Berg posted:

Just kinda seems like every show is getting less and less product, and more and more empty tables. The October show was like the beginning of the Christmas season for me, and with Lionel and MTH gone and the larger dealers bailing, not so much anymore. Just a shame.

There are a number of reasons for this: inflation and the economy more generally; Covid-19, declining member attendance, internet sales, changes in ownership of certain dealers, relocation of businesses, etc. BTW, both MTH and ATLAS O attended the October 2022 York Meet.

Certain large dealers like CharlesRo and Nicholas Smith decided not to attend any more shows. In the case of RO, the passing of Charlie Sr. had a lot to do with their decision and Chris' sale of Nicholas Smith had a lot to do with their decision.  Jim moved Scenic Express from Pennsylvania to Colorado, so the economics for attending York Meets changed dramatically for him. Scenic Express did attend the Amherst Show in January, but that is a much larger show and caters to all scales, not just O.

Stockyard Express was not at the October York Meet because Clyde has just had a medical procedure. As we all know from a prior Forum topic, there was some kind of a dispute between Lionel and the Eastern Division that stopped Lionel from attending the October York Meet. (Lionel had previously decided not to attend the April York Meets.) Hopefully, they will resolve their issues. TrainWorld was at the October York Meet, but left the Meet very early. I'm not sure what their plans are for the future.

That said, there are still plenty of excellent train dealers at the York Meets such as Grzyboski's, Just Trains, Stockyard Express, Mr. Muffin, Nassau Hobby, the Train Shop at Brentwood Antiques, Trainz, Henning's and Ralph's. More generally, there have been approximately 140-150 vendors in the Orange Hall, including the train dealers, at recent York Meets.

Pat 

@irish rifle posted:

There are a number of reasons for this: inflation and the economy more generally; Covid-19, declining member attendance, internet sales, changes in ownership of certain dealers, relocation of businesses, etc. BTW, both MTH and ATLAS O attended the October 2022 York Meet.

Certain large dealers like CharlesRo and Nicholas Smith decided not to attend any more shows. In the case of RO, the passing of Charlie Sr. had a lot to do with their decision and Chris' sale of Nicholas Smith had a lot to do with their decision.  Jim moved Scenic Express from Pennsylvania to Colorado, so the economics for attending York Meets changed dramatically for him. Scenic Express did attend the Amherst Show in January, but that is a much larger show and caters to all scales, not just O.

Stockyard Express was not at the October York Meet because Clyde has just had a medical procedure. As we all know from a prior Forum topic, there was some kind of a dispute between Lionel and the Eastern Division that stopped Lionel from attending the October York Meet. (Lionel had previously decided not to attend the April York Meets.) Hopefully, they will resolve their issues. TrainWorld was at the October York Meet, but left the Meet very early. I'm not sure what their plans are for the future.

That said, there are still plenty of excellent train dealers at the York Meets such as Grzyboski's, Just Trains, Stockyard Express, Mr. Muffin, Nassau Hobby, the Train Shop at Brentwood Antiques, Trainz, Henning's and Ralph's. More generally, there have been approximately 140-150 vendors in the Orange Hall, including the train dealers, at recent York Meets.

Pat

Chris did not sell Nicholas Smith.  Joey just left to do other things and they have a new manager and staff running the place.

Chris did not sell Nicholas Smith.  Joey just left to do other things and they have a new manager and staff running the place.

Sean:

Thanks for the correction. Much appreciated. The fact remains however that Nicholas Smith is no longer attending the York Meets, which was the point I was attempting to make.

Pat

Last edited by irish rifle

The reality is it's more cost effective to do the Zooms and other social media events.  Lionel is a pretty small company and they probably have to do the social media stuff, to reach maximal numbers of hobbyists and dealers. They are going to be pretty selective about which events they attend in person.   Reaching out to the unconverted will be a priority rather than preaching to the choir, so to speak, is my guess.

I'm sure they'd come to York at least in October if they could resolve whatever disagreements they have with the Eastern Division leadership.  Probably a temporary glitch but the future is social media, not solely or primarily in person events.  Their future as a company is with 15 and 25 year olds, not us older folks, who already have imbibed the mystic fluids .

@Arthur posted:

Less dealers due to BUILT TO ORDER, dealers don't have the excess inventory they once had.

I'm not understanding WHY there would be fewer dealers due to Lionel's BTO program.  Humm.  I think this hypothersis isn't going anywhere....

BTW, MTH started it's own "BTO" program way back in 2005-2007 era ... MAYBE THAT caused fewer dealers???  (Nah.)

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