York Rumors

MartyE posted:

All the folks giving Lionel grief need to remember that other vendors threatened to do the same. Lionel acted. I suspect others will follow. I've heard from at least one other vendor wishing they didn't have to be there in the spring because of the small return. At York you are preaching to the choir. The costs are large for little return. 

While im disappointed, I don't see it as a bad move when you can concentrate those dollars on folks that are new to the hobby at an event that caters to new blood. 

They complained, threatened, and cut back on their displays because the show wasn't open to the general public. So now it's opened to the public and not only do they not make a decent effort to present their products in the best possible way, but they dismiss the April show all together. Wow!!!

How does Lionel measure "return" when they are not selling the product at the show?  I personally have made the decision to buy big ticket items after seeing them demonstrated at York. I have also made the decision to buy after talking to the Lionel reps and getting the answers to important questions that the catalog doesn't answer.

How many of the "new blood" people are willing to come up with $1500-$2000 for a locomotive? I personally think they are shooting themselves in the foot. Of course, it wouldn't be the first time they did that.

On the Lionel topic, I agree with Skip. Lionel seems to be taking a familiar path down the mass market trail again. They will lose the high end of the market as they did before. Mike on the other hand is much more shrewd. He shows up with not just the team, the product and the display, but he brings a warehouse full of parts to sell. Oh, and they don’t negotiate on price. Seem to be selling anyway. There were five people standing in line to pay when I was there Friday last Spring!

George

You know I don't care if Lionel does not show up at York in April. I will be there to see and buy from the people and vendors who do. 

The TCA and ED cannot be held hostage by Lionel or anybody else, you either attend and abide by the rules set down by the ED or stay home and wonder why you are losing business.

Dave

NYC Fan posted:

MartyE posted:

All the folks giving Lionel grief need to remember that other vendors threatened to do the same. Lionel acted. I suspect others will follow. I've heard from at least one other vendor wishing they didn't have to be there in the spring because of the small return. At York you are preaching to the choir. The costs are large for little return. 

While im disappointed, I don't see it as a bad move when you can concentrate those dollars on folks that are new to the hobby at an event that caters to new blood. 

They complained, threatened, and cut back on their displays because the show wasn't open to the general public. So now it's opened to the public and not only do they not make a decent effort to present their products in the best possible way, but they dismiss the April show all together. Wow!!!

How does Lionel measure "return" when they are not selling the product at the show?  I personally have made the decision to buy big ticket items after seeing them demonstrated at York. I have also made the decision to buy after talking to the Lionel reps and getting the answers to important questions that the catalog doesn't answer.

How many of the "new blood" people are willing to come up with $1500-$2000 for a locomotive? I personally think they are shooting themselves in the foot. Of course, it wouldn't be the first time they did that.

Spot on. Couldn't agree more.

Unfortunately, the hobby is in trouble.

- demographics against it - fewer people BUILD anything, such as a layout

- prices climbing (as we demand more features, features that mean $ 800- 2000 locomotives).  6 opening doors on my Legacy F7 set?  Six opening doors?? six springs?  Labor to mount 6 sets of doors??  I don't need even ONE!!!   

All I WANT is decent running, good looking and trouble free equipment.

- Asian, and Chinese production - there is a lot of hand work and therefore labor costs.  Putting on dem doors, I guess.

- (what I call) "Walmart mentality" among  USA consumers, who are not willing to buy anything unless on the cheap.  Our culture has gone to owning 12-15 pairs of jeans at $18 apiece rather than 2 or 3 at $ 50 apiece.

- AND- US.  We continue to buy stuff that IS available through the local hobby shop online, and then wonder: "What did Ace Hobby on Main St. close?"

Lionel remains our best possibility at turning these trends.  BUT they have to produce product that appeals to kids (Thomas, Mickey Mouse, etc,) to try and build a new demographic, AND yet still try to stay in the game with us "serious hobbyists".  It's a tough assignment for  General Motors or Apple, and near impossible for a   $ 100 million company that does not control its own manufacturing.  

And, Lionel (any more than MTH or Atlas) really cannot sell at a show- since they would be selling against their dealers.  Yet- only the "serious hobbyists" COME to most train shows.  Ergo- their return is tough to justify.  A big consumer show (like World's Greatest Hobby" is likely going to be more useful to them than a York Train Show would be.

A mass market return for model trains would be good for everybody!

But if the mass market doesn't buy, has your base been eyeballing Mike's wares with no comparative in your absence? What about the newer folk.. did the new LC owner see DCS at it's best before Legacy?  First perception can be a kill shot.

I tend to agree with it being a self inflicted shot in the foot. York is "the trade show" for O ; it just doesn't travel.  (WGH didn't even have O when I saw one of the shows... wost show ever IMO. TT,Z,N,T,HO,OO, vintage S, G and Lego... but 0 O (zero O gauge) So unless Lionel does some kind of other exposure campaign in place of it; a chosen shot in the foot.

   Hey, I've bankrolled shows myself and been part of other small businesses doing it too. The costs are trivial compared to the gains, in morale alone, if not the cash register (customer and employee morale both, if you do it right a perk to be fought for ).  Later sales numbers attributed to the exposure; astounding at times.  

Until the huge ad campaign starts, I don't get it either.

Some of you forget that this started out as a collecting hobby in 1954.  At some point it will go back to just a collecting hobby. I collect pre & postwar Lionel which is 1900-1969. I love the hunt.  I could care less about the manufacturers of the modern trains 1970 to present. OK, I'm waiting for the flack. 

eddie g posted:

Some of you forget that this started out as a collecting hobby in 1954.  At some point it will go back to just a collecting hobby. I collect pre & postwar Lionel which is 1900-1969. I love the hunt.  I could care less about the manufacturers of the modern trains 1970 to present. OK, I'm waiting for the flack. 

I think your point has a lot of merit, but there is a ton of enjoyment from the hi-railers, scale modelers and new fleet operators. That’s what’s funding Lionel. You and me buy the old stuff. I’m planning to buy yours when you go off to the great layout in the sky.

George

eddie g posted:

Some of you forget that this started out as a collecting hobby in 1954.  At some point it will go back to just a collecting hobby. I collect pre & postwar Lionel which is 1900-1969. I love the hunt.  I could care less about the manufacturers of the modern trains 1970 to present. OK, I'm waiting for the flack. 

Eddie.

With all due respect, the hobby is model railroading - and it has several components - of which collecting certainly is one. But, I think the emphasis from the beginning, and going back to the 1930s, has been mostly on building layouts and running model trains. Some people build locomotives and rolling stock. Others just buy and collect them. Some buy modern ready-to-run trains which have scale details and scale size, and operate them like a full-size railroad. There are many ways to enjoy the hobby, and I don't see it becoming just a collecting hobby. Looking forward to meeting you at Springfield.

MELGAR

Eddie,

You know we love you... See you at York!

George

"Collecting" anything is dead. Anyone interested in "old stuff" will buy a few examples in pristine condition.

MELGAR posted:

There are many ways to enjoy the hobby, and I don't see it becoming just a collecting hobby.

MELGAR

I do both: I collect and I operate (which is its intended purpose). Just about everything I have these days, with few exceptions, is modern era equipment from several (or more) manufacturers. Perfectly happy with all. I don't believe any segment of the hobby is dead; the hobby is just changing and evolving a bit, like anything else.

eddie g posted:

Some of you forget that this started out as a collecting hobby in 1954.  At some point it will go back to just a collecting hobby. I collect pre & postwar Lionel which is 1900-1969. I love the hunt.  I could care less about the manufacturers of the modern trains 1970 to present. OK, I'm waiting for the flack. 

The hobby didn't start in 1954 - TCA did.  The hobby is much bigger than TCA - it started as model railroading, and NMRA predates TCA by about 20 years.  And "collecting" started as kids playing with trains and later wanting to obtain as adults what they didn't have as kids.

I see collecting evolving into people having fewer items, with those items being of high quality or rarity.  The demand for common or lesser-condition items will continue to dwindle.  I grew up with postwar trains and enjoy them, but looking at them objectively, I can't imagine that they will have wide appeal to folks of other generations.

If TCA and York refuse to evolve with changing tastes, they will die.  As a TCA member, I think that it serves an important role in promoting the hobby and providing an archive of artifacts and information.  To that end, we should all embrace and care about the vitality of ALL aspects of the train hobby.

I didn't say that that the hobby started in 1954. I said the COLLECTING hobby starting in 1954.  There will always be shows & meets for train collectors even after the manufacturers die.