Skip to main content

Replies sorted oldest to newest

Having just been to the YORK meet on Friday I can say that it was a little depressing. Attendance seemed to be low. And for my interests there wasn't much to see (in the dealer hall department.) Also not having all the manufacturers there was a downer but I knew that going in. I think the meet needs to be cut back to only once a year and held in October. I don't think opening it to the public matters one way or another. Although, I feel like "the public" in this instance are families interested in seeing layouts as opposed to "train people" who would probably be in the TCA already. Walking around the blue hall with my dad who I brought as a guest, he remarked that "most everyone in here right now including me is going to be dead in 10-15 years." I looked around and had to agree. That is also something the TCA and Eastern Division is going to have to contend with in the short term future. 

Last edited by J 611
jd-train posted:

I would disagree that it should be a totally closed meet.

If the public sales help make is worthwhile for the dealers to go to York, I see this as a win for everyone!

Jim

But that point is under debate, to the best of my knowledge.

For years, the cry from dealers was to let the public in, so they could experience the meet.  That has now happened for the dealer halls over the last few meets, but this is the meet where several importers and magazine companies decided to not attend, so apparently the public did not enhance their bottom line enough to balance the decline due to other factors. 

So whether it helped is debatable.  As J611 mentioned, the demographic remains the same.  That factor cannot be altered much by admitting the public, it would seem.

The (sad, but true) joke among me and my dealer and some other colleagues that socialize at York is that "20 years ago, when I joined (shortly after graduating college and having a real job), I was one of the youngest members of the TCA.  It's now 20+ years later, and I am still one of the youngest members of the TCA."

-Dave

 

I'm hoping to go to York for the first time in the fall as a guest; I have some interest in joining the TCA but it'll have to make financial sense for me to do so. I'm also hoping that there's a decent amount of younger members in the group; nothing against the older demographic but it's always nice to have some people who I have age in common with as well.

Dave45681 posted:
jd-train posted:

I would disagree that it should be a totally closed meet.

If the public sales help make is worthwhile for the dealers to go to York, I see this as a win for everyone!

Jim

But that point is under debate, to the best of my knowledge.

For years, the cry from dealers was to let the public in, so they could experience the meet.  That has now happened for the dealer halls over the last few meets, but this is the meet where several importers and magazine companies decided to not attend, so apparently the public did not enhance their bottom line enough to balance the decline due to other factors. 

So whether it helped is debatable.  As J611 mentioned, the demographic remains the same.  That factor cannot be altered much by admitting the public, it would seem.

The (sad, but true) joke among me and my dealer and some other colleagues that socialize at York is that "20 years ago, when I joined (shortly after graduating college and having a real job), I was one of the youngest members of the TCA.  It's now 20+ years later, and I am still one of the youngest members of the TCA."

-Dave

 

I guess that I am struggling with coming up with a reason why it would be bad for the dealer halls to be open to the public?  

Having the halls open to the public at worst would have no impact on the vendors.  Anything else but worse case,  would be a plus for them in terms of sales.  Even a modest $1,000 - $2,000 in additional sales might be enough to make their attendance worthwhile.  Whether total sales from TCA members plus the public is enough to justify a vendor's cost to attend York, is something only that vendor could decide.  

I just don't see a downside to having the dealer halls open to the public.

Lionel made their own decision not to attend based on what they perceived as best for them.  I wonder, however, at what other venue would there be around 10,000 o-gauge model train hobbiest? 

Jim

TCA needs to attract newcomers to the hobby. In some ways TCA needs to learn from the younger members in the hobby about trends in model railroading and what interests them so that TCA can adjust to the changing needs of members and would be members. The Amhearst show model seems to attract younger folks and families so I would say TCA for the York meet and there division shows should move more toward replicating that model.

I think it is also a good idea to encourage other train hobby organixations to participate in the York Meet as well. LCCA's presence at York is a good example of ths presence.

So I am for keeping the meet open to the public. WE need to encourage participation with younger hobbyists so that the Hobby can sustain itself.  

I don't see any good to close it to the public, for ANYONE. 

We in this hobby need exposure-  I have been to only one York (October 2018), and I thought that one was terrific.  One of the best parts was seeing the public- not thousands or anything, but a lot of families, grandfathers w/ teen and younger grandchildren, all people who we would love to have in the hobby. 

One day of only Members- fine, but otherwise let's promote the hobby!!  

Last edited by Mike Wyatt

I think it is also a good idea to encourage other train hobby organizations to participate in the York Meet as well. LCCA's presence at York is a good example of this presence.

EDTCA does provide the venue space for operating layouts in the white, purple and black halls and that will attract the kids to see the trains operate. As for LCCA's presence in the Orange hall lobby, I question why they are being set up in the lobby. With the added space in that hall at this show and perhaps the upcoming ones there, why can't EDTCA place their layout inside the hall and give them the additional space to expand their layout and show their trains to interested folks. There was enough space where Lionel and Atlas would have been that we could have an inside football game there. But instead, it was empty looking.

WAKE UP EDTCA. YOU MISSED AN OPPORTUNITY TO FILL THAT VOID IN THAT AREA OF THAT HALL. LCCA has a mission to bring younger folks into the hobby. 

Just my 2 cents.

Ted Bertiger, President of OCSMR who has added 6 members to our club in the past 4 months.

 

I have no objection to opening part of show to public...how else are you going to attract new members...make them aware there IS such a hobby?  But what % of attendees were NOT members? What has been gained? Fortunately for me, this week began with Strasburg O scale show (which was tiny), but where l spent the most, and the Timonium open show, which seemed to have more tin plate than usual, l thought was larger than l'd seen in the past, and where l got to meet a structure kit manufacturer whose kits l have built, as they are new and different. If the few mfrs. left want to preach to the choir, where else are they going to find a larger group of disciples?  But what would Lionel have brought that was new and different?  I have most of the old stuff l want, so why should l spend motel and gas to see reruns, and pick up catalogs of reruns? I missed two Yorks a year ago for medical reasons..what did l miss?

The way I understand it, is that not all of the halls are open to the public.  Why ?   Why would you not open a store to prospective customers ?   What are we, some sort of secret organization ?   Everyone complains that there is not enough new blood in the hobby.  It seems to me that if you want to attract new people to our hobby, you must make our hobby known to those people.  Every other train meet I know of doesn't require a secret handshake to attend, so why should the York meet be any different ?

Dan Padova posted:

The way I understand it, is that not all of the halls are open to the public.  Why ?   Why would you not open a store to prospective customers ?   What are we, some sort of secret organization ?   Everyone complains that there is not enough new blood in the hobby.  It seems to me that if you want to attract new people to our hobby, you must make our hobby known to those people.  Every other train meet I know of doesn't require a secret handshake to attend, so why should the York meet be any different ?

I'm still trying to understand why you can apparently take pictures in some halls and not the others? 

If people want to see what it is like ahead of time, pictures seem like they could help not hurt as far as increasing attendance. 

Tom 

Last edited by PRR8976
Dan Padova posted:

The way I understand it, is that not all of the halls are open to the public.  Why ?   

Well, if all the halls were open to the public, some of us may decide not to pay TCA membership dues any more just to be able to attend York. As it is, we may have already lost a few who were only interested in what was being sold in the Orange and Purple Halls. We are already loosing members due to old age and death. Why add another reason?

 

The (sad, but true) joke among me and my dealer and some other colleagues that socialize at York is that "20 years ago, when I joined (shortly after graduating college and having a real job), I was one of the youngest members of the TCA.  It's now 20+ years later, and I am still one of the youngest members of the TCA."

-Dave

 

I thought this exact same thing walking around YORK! For reference, I am now 33 and joined the TCA in 2000. 

Joe Hohmann posted:
Dan Padova posted:

The way I understand it, is that not all of the halls are open to the public.  Why ?   

Well, if all the halls were open to the public, some of us may decide not to pay TCA membership dues any more just to be able to attend York. As it is, we may have already lost a few who were only interested in what was being sold in the Orange and Purple Halls. We are already loosing members due to old age and death. Why add another reason?

Valid point. The ONLY reason I pay TCA dues is so that I am able to attend the YORK meet. Membership has zero value to me otherwise. 

Ted Bertiger posted:

I think it is also a good idea to encourage other train hobby organizations to participate in the York Meet as well. LCCA's presence at York is a good example of this presence.

......................................... There was enough space where Lionel and Atlas would have been that we could have an inside football game there. But instead, it was empty looking.

WAKE UP EDTCA. YOU MISSED AN OPPORTUNITY TO FILL THAT VOID IN THAT AREA OF THAT HALL. LCCA has a mission to bring younger folks into the hobby. ........................

IIRC, the map of Orange Hall had a dealer listed for taking a large portion of the space that Lionel vacated.  I have heard that the dealer ended up being ill, and did not make it to this meet.  I don't recall if anyone had been slated to take the Atlas space, or if Atlas maybe retained it and just set up their small table with catalogs there so they would not lose the area for the future.

Dan Padova posted:

The way I understand it, is that not all of the halls are open to the public.  Why ?   Why would you not open a store to prospective customers ?   What are we, some sort of secret organization ?   Everyone complains that there is not enough new blood in the hobby.  It seems to me that if you want to attract new people to our hobby, you must make our hobby known to those people.  Every other train meet I know of doesn't require a secret handshake to attend, so why should the York meet be any different ?

There has been lengthy debate over that in many York threads in the past.  It boils down to a tax agreement between EDTCA and the state of PA. 

"Member to Member" sales within the organization for individuals had been allowed to transpire without the need for collecting/reporting of sales tax for individuals (not true for businesses, which do of course report sales and pay the tax to PA as part of their business). 

Allowing the public general admission to the member halls would risk that agreement.  It's not like there is no way for the public to see the member halls"just once to see what it is like".  The guest registration is a one time thing (per person) that is allowed, and it is without restriction, you get to roam all the halls at will.

Some smaller sellers (I am likely one of the smallest to have a table) do not sell enough product to make it worth having to deal with the paperwork to obtain a PA tax number and file a few sales each York meet for barely enough sales to cover the cost of buying the table.  (I am not talking all expenses, nor should I as I would attend with or without the table, and my hobby is not a business - I simply get a table to try to find new homes for a few items I no longer prioritize in my collection)

As for the "secret handshake" thing, that's a fallacy at this point.  That went away when the 2 signature rule went away to join TCA (admittedly possibly later than it should have, but it's been gone for a while now). 

Needing to join if you repeatedly want to attend York should not be considered a barrier.  Any more than it's a barrier to have to pay yearly dues to any other organization of you want to purchase all of their special run products (LCCA, LOTS, etc.).

-Dave

Last edited by Dave45681
OGR CEO-PUBLISHER posted:

How many of these threads do we need???  There are already plenty but at least if you are going to participate in this one, keep it on topic with the reasons why the York meet should be closed (assuming OP means member's only)....

As few as possible but as many as necessary? This is clearly a topic that interests people and is trending. There are also many variables so the discussion can and will lead down several paths. Don't go all Zuckerberg on us please.

Last edited by J 611
Bob Delbridge posted:

I don't belong and don't go...but why not have 1 meet for members/guests and one meet for everyone?

Who's the meet really for, TCA members or dealers?  What's it's intended purpose?

That's sort of what it is right now, or at least it can be looked at from that perspective.

The Train meet in the Red/White/Blue/Silver Halls is for TCA members and their guests.

The Train meet simultaneously occurring in the Purple/Orange Hall is open to the general public, which includes TCA members, of course!

The perk of being a TCA member is that you don't have to pay a second admission to attend the meet in the Orange/Purple Halls, it is included when you buy your registration to the meet in the Red/White/Blue/Silver Halls.

-Dave

 

TCA, LCCA, MTHRRC, etc... all started off as wonderfully noble endeavors. The TCA was started at a time when the hobby became a hobby- that is, those pre-WWII kids became interested in their childhood passion once again and had the disposable to afford trains for themselves, their children, a cominbation, or for their children but really for themselves ha. But this history isn't anything 90-95% of this board doesn't already know.

As far as closing off York, see how that meshes with the TCA's version of the "10 Commandments" aka their bylaws:  http://www.tcawestern.org/TCA%20WD%20Bylaws.pdf

That said, the TCA and NMRA have served most admirably in creating standards for toy trains. Further, it is relatively, easily accessible to gain membership in the TCA. Further, it offers benefits to its members as do the LCCA and MTHRRC, which,  while representing their respective brands, both offer incentives to joining. At the same time the TCA provides resources to the public, i.e. non-members, and IMO ultimately has a goal of keeping the hobby going.

The market economy for toy train manufacturers has enough barriers of entry. Hence the cycling of those 2nd or third tier brands like Industrial Rail, RMT, etc..after Lionel, MTH, Atlas. To put barriers of entry on customers would just be even worse. I'm not making an argument that says the hobby is dying or that it's not, but I am making an argument that closing off the biggest Toy Train meet to the public and restricting it to TCA members only is a bad for business for all manufacturers and sellers. At the Allentown Spring Thaw I saw more kids than I had seen before at a train meet, and, to my delight, heard one crying on the way out that he didn't get something- just like I or my brother or father would've done at the age of 4 or 5 when leaving a toy show or train show with my Pop. The TCA and NMRA hols things together but also allow access and information to toy train operation and collecting. Closing off large events such as York is a "turn off" to would-be or future collectors, enthusiasts, etc... and certainly wouldn't be in the best interest of manufacturers or vendors.

Is there any attempt to register non members attending the York meet ?  Seems  a big stack of the TCA quarterly and other mailings and a peek at the classified ads on line might be a proper inducement.  Even a complementary no voting rights membership that must be upgraded to full membership withing two years might create some new permanent members.          j

As a guest at the recent meet, I can say there definitely is an attempt to register non-members at York.  I did not register at the meet when I went on Thursday, as I simply ran out of time.  I have since registered on-line.  If a newbie chooses, there is an option for a six month trial membership if the person doesn't want a full membership right away.

The Eastern Division's website notes that 60 new members joined the TCA at the October 2018 meet.

Jim

Another thought occurred to me, after reading STEVEFROMPA's post.  Does the TCA make any money from the vendors, other than the rental money from tables ?   Do vendors fork over a percentage of their sales receipts to the TCA ?   If the public were allowed to attend as freely as a TCA member, maybe more sales would result.  

I don't pretend to know or understand the inner workings of how organizations like the TCA work.  But I am fairly certain that the TCA is not in this for the fun of it alone.  

My first time around, with Lionel, was in the late '70s.  I bought what I liked, because I could not afford to be a collector, read the original OGR magazine as well as some Model Railroader, and an occasional Railroad Model Craftsman.  I also belonged to the Lionel Railroader Club and read a newsletter called Third Rail, if memory serves me.  That was it as far as gaining knowledge of the hobby.  The only other way to gain information about "O" gauge trains was to frequent hobby shops and train meets.  

Fast forward to the internet age.  We have way too much information coming at us.  A lot of time is spent trying to absorb and process that info.  I, for one, think too much time is spent talking about stuff, that in the end, means absolutely zilch.  There must be a half dozen threads on the topic of York.  I am as guilty as anyone here, as I have participated in some of them.  

I think I'll go run a train.

Last edited by Former Member

It's a no brainer. Allow the public into the dealer halls for whatever fee the Eastern Division sets. If they want to go into the member halls, charge them a fee ABOVE what the member cost for the meet is, and give them the option of joining the TCA. If they join the TCA, they (the Eastern Divivsion) could` allow an appropriate part of that extra fee charged for access to the member halls to go toward their TCA membership. I don't know the breakdown of expenses for the Eastern Division of the TCA, but a buck is a buck. It will help defray Eastern Division expenses, and maybe get you some new members.

If they get to see what is going on in the member halls, it might persuade them to join.

Simon

Simon Winter posted:

It's a no brainer. Allow the public into the dealer halls for whatever fee the Eastern Division sets. If they want to go into the member halls, charge them a fee ABOVE what the member cost for the meet is, and give them the option of joining the TCA. If they join the TCA, they (the Eastern Divivsion) could` allow an appropriate part of that extra fee charged for access to the member halls to go toward their TCA membership. I don't know the breakdown of expenses for the Eastern Division of the TCA, but a buck is a buck. It will help defray Eastern Division expenses, and maybe get you some new members.

If they get to see what is going on in the member halls, it might persuade them to join.

Simon

1) It's NOT a no-brainer.  Allowing the public into the member halls by just paying a large fee eliminates the "member to member" nature of the transactions for tax purposes.  It's got nothing to do with how much money you charge to let public into the member halls, it's that they need to be members to maintain that situation for the tax man to be happy without forcing every member to obtain a tax number for PA and file for each meet. Member does not equal dealer or business in most cases.

2) The public  can participate as a GUEST one time to obtain access to the member halls to see what is there.  That hasn't changed (also OK with the tax man per long ago agreement we all take for granted).

Each York I have to add this comment, so please bear with me: The "poor public" can attend a large, open to the public", Greenberg show in the Orange Hall every January. This is even better than TCA York because they sell the popular "N" and "HO" stuff in addition to the less popular "O" stuff. Also, there are usually 3 or 4 yearly train shows held in Timonium, MD, a short 30 minute drive south of York. I'm still waiting to hear from a York dealer saying how much they sold to people with the wrist bands.

pgrande posted:

Your thoughts?

This one made me chuckle.  The original post doesn't even list the usual reasons why the EDTCA shouldn't let the public in.  So far, I haven't heard of any problems caused by the "public" at York.  York is the best run, friendliest, concentrated collector train show of all time.  

Of course, if you are a dues paying TCA member and in ED, then you could vote against allowing the public in the next EDTCA meeting.  The rest of us are "guests" attending a local division TCA train meet and we vote with our feet and our money on whether allowing the public in is okay.  I don't think the aging demographic has any connection to allowing the public in.  And as Jim Berger asked, let's hear your thoughts, justification, etc.

Or since we are in the USA, start your own "members only" train club and compete with the EDTCA.  That's the American way.  I am always in awe of the logistics and quality everytime I go to a York show. 

Please start a new show and give us two competing train shows to choose from.  

I also believe York should remain completely private, even if it means scaling back the size of it. When I first started going to York in 1979, it was 4 halls: red, white, blue and yellow, and it was still a big event. The yellow hall was the smallest and hadn't been moved to the grandstand yet. The York meet was established as a venue for private, member-to-member tax-free sales based on the TCA's 501C3 status. The day I have to start collecting and paying tax on my York sales is the day I give up my table, and there are many of my fellow table-holders who think the same way as I do. If a particular dealer or manufacturer chooses not to attend because it no longer fits their business plan, that does not mean the York meet as an event needs to deviate from it's original purpose. I paid a visit to one of the manufacturers in the orange hall, and the staff was more interested in watching the Masters than answering my questions, so I left and will spend my money with their competitor, who wasn't at York.  In that case, they may as well have stayed home!

John 

 

 

 

Last edited by BlueComet400

Unlike Greenberg and worlds Greatest hobby the York meet is sponsored and run by the TCA Eastern Div for the benefit of TCA members. It's their call and my guess is that what you see now is what we can expect for the for-see-able future. There were no shortage of sellers, both members and business related.

Its still a fun time and there was no shortage of available O-Gauge product

My two cents is I have no problem with guests in the Orange, Purple and Black Halls but the rest of the meet should remain closed. Maybe some of them will join the TCA. OTOH, if the ED felt that they want to go back to a closed meet I have no problem with that either. Whatever is best for the ED and the TCA works for me. 

Gotta give KUDOS the AUSSTEVE.......... if the way EDTCA runs York isn't to your liking in a strong way...certainly go ahead with your own logistics and give us a competing show to attend!  Yea BOY!   From most of these comments of seemingly dues paying TCA members, it sure looks like the only reason they attend is the York show.     Pretty sad.........

As stated before, try reading your TCA news letters and such and see what the TCA does and needs $$$ in order to function.  Needing funding on repairs to the TCA Museum itself was a whopper of a $$ bill!  Maybe do as I do, and when you can send a donation when the TCA calls for  extra $$ H E L P!

It ain't perfect but the TCA "consist" is in more than capable hands!

Dave45681 posted:
Simon Winter posted:

It's a no brainer. Allow the public into the dealer halls for whatever fee the Eastern Division sets. If they want to go into the member halls, charge them a fee ABOVE what the member cost for the meet is, and give them the option of joining the TCA. If they join the TCA, they (the Eastern Divivsion) could` allow an appropriate part of that extra fee charged for access to the member halls to go toward their TCA membership. I don't know the breakdown of expenses for the Eastern Division of the TCA, but a buck is a buck. It will help defray Eastern Division expenses, and maybe get you some new members.

If they get to see what is going on in the member halls, it might persuade them to join.

Simon

1) It's NOT a no-brainer.  Allowing the public into the member halls by just paying a large fee eliminates the "member to member" nature of the transactions for tax purposes.  It's got nothing to do with how much money you charge to let public into the member halls, it's that they need to be members to maintain that situation for the tax man to be happy without forcing every member to obtain a tax number for PA and file for each meet. Member does not equal dealer or business in most cases.

2) The public  can participate as a GUEST one time to obtain access to the member halls to see what is there.  That hasn't changed (also OK with the tax man per long ago agreement we all take for granted).

OK, Let them in one time and call them guests, or offer 1 year memberships.

Simon

Last edited by Simon Winter

Open events will always be in a better position to thrive than closed meets. Just about every show and event that I can name (or attend)  for every purpose is open to the public.  If York continues as an exclusionary event it will last a few more years, but with rapidly changing demographics that business model cannot survive . The objective of a business is to attract as many customers easily as possible.  Somehow this message is not getting across. Ignorance can sometimes be defined as doing things the same way and expecting a different result.  When Allentown, a show in two adjoining buildings (with an $8 admission) is able to attract half the audience of York, while the WGHOT show draws a higher attendance than York it seems to prove that there are still people out there that want to go to train shows. Why not reach them all?

Dennis LaGrua posted:

Open events will always be in a better position to thrive than closed meets. Just about every show and event that I can name (or attend)  for every purpose is open to the public. If York continues as an exclusionary event it will last a few more years, but with rapidly changing demographicsthat business model cannot survive . The objective of a business is to attract as many customers easily as possibleSomehow this message is not getting across. Ignorance can sometimes be defined as doing things the same way and expecting a different result.  When Allentown, a show in two adjoining buildings (with an $8 admission) is able to attract half the audience of York, while the WGHOT show draws a higher attendance than York it seems to prove thatthere are still people out there that want to go to train shows. Why not reach them all?

I've high-lited the statements that make especially good sense to me, Dennis, and I support such a good sense approach to the TCA Meet's reality in the 21st Century.

FrankM

Moonson posted:
Dennis LaGrua posted:

Open events will always be in a better position to thrive than closed meets. Just about every show and event that I can name (or attend)  for every purpose is open to the public. If York continues as an exclusionary event it will last a few more years, but with rapidly changing demographicsthat business model cannot survive . The objective of a business is to attract as many customers easily as possibleSomehow this message is not getting across. Ignorance can sometimes be defined as doing things the same way and expecting a different result.  When Allentown, a show in two adjoining buildings (with an $8 admission) is able to attract half the audience of York, while the WGHOT show draws a higher attendance than York it seems to prove thatthere are still people out there that want to go to train shows. Why not reach them all?

I've high-lited the statements that make especially good sense to me, Dennis, and I support such a good sense approach to the TCA Meet's reality in the 21st Century.

FrankM

Except that the TCA is not a "business".

The TCA is an international non-profit organization of people who operate and collect toy trains, toy train accessories, toy train books, toy train paper, and anything else rail transport related, whose mission is basically to develop an appreciation of, preserve and promote the growth and enjoyment of collecting and operating toy, model and scale trains.

 

Somehow this message is not getting across. Ignorance can sometimes be defined as doing things the same way and expecting a different result. 

The O.P.  of above doesn't get the the fact that this argument doesn't apply to the public attending York.....if more (public) folks were into O Gauge, this thread would almost be a moot. It's simple, join or don't join the TCA!  That is ignorance 4 sure!

Why don't we put up a wall between the dealer halls and the member halls.  Basically have two meets at the same time: one open to all and one open to members only.   The dealers will get the added traffic and the public will get a chance to see the hobby.  The member halls will retain their tax free status :-)

Don't know if  CAPPILOT has really read/comprehended the descriptions of York  A L R E A D Y having exclusive "members only halls", but the above quote indicates how this thread keeps its' legs ( oh WHY?) ................the reason the EDTCA York show is what it is,  comes from many clever thinking heads ALREADY  having mulled over the logistics of having such a show, and the votes of TCA members.  The EDTCA show is fine as it is........it was always meant as a members only, just like your OWN family activities are exclusionary, until a friend is invited or new son-in-law enters the picture!

I'm sorry but some of you start from a faulty premise, and this is where it is different from some of the for-profit shows previously mentioned.  The function of the York Meet is NOT to maximize profit, it is to serve as a Meet for TCA members.  It is a function of the Eastern Division of the TCA.  I don't know why some of the gentlemen on this forum have a hard time grasping this concept.  It is rehashed over and over and over again, every six months like clockwork.

I think the Eastern Division and the TCA have embraced whatever makes sense (TO THEIR MEMBERS) to make their Meet a success.  IF the Meet shrinks in size, so be it, as that Meet serves the needs of its members.

Member halls will NEVER be open to the general public, as most Eastern Division members do NOT want this to happen. There are several reasons for this. Among them is the taxation issue, but this is not the only issue.

Dealer halls are open to the public. I think this is a great idea. If there is enough extra revenue to entice the dealers to continue to come to Meet, I think this is a win - win, as this is advantageous to the membership as well.

Regarding TCA membership, this is a members only Meet. If you want to attend (go to the member halls) you must be a TCA member. Again, I don't understand why this is a difficult concept to understand.  The ability to be a one-time guest at the meet, is also a great idea. One can be the guest of a TCA member, or of the TCA itself.  The TCA reports that there were 60 new members joining the organization at the October 2018 meet.  New members can join with a trial membership or a regular membership.

Personally, I think TCA's idea of allowing folks to be one-time guests of the TCA itself is a great idea.  I had always wanted to go to York, but being more of a scale model train operator than a collector of toy trains, had never joined the TCA. I had so much fun at the Meet this past Thursday, that I have joined the TCA.

As a new member of the TCA's Eastern Division, kudos to the Eastern Division for putting on such a fun event!  

Jim

 

 

 

Take a chill pill, Red. I was only responding to the prior poster(s) who opined that the TCA is a business - which is untrue - and insinuated that it should be operated as a business.

That proposition is contrary to and runs afoul of the explicit purposes for which the TCA was formed in the 1950's in the first place. As a non-profit organization, you cannot simply decide one day to start operating a business and violate your own by-laws and tenents.

Maybe that's unimportant to you, but that's something, IMHO, that all TCA members should take seriously and that the public should understand.    

The public has only been invited t York the last few years and, secondly, only as an accommodation to some people "screaming" to let them in. More importantly, the fact that the public can attend the event does not automatically change the TCA's primary focus and non-profit purposes into running a "for-profit" business.

It always amuses me that outsiders want to tell a private, non-profit association that's been around for over 60 years how to run their organization. If people feel so strongly about this issue, here's a thought - stop complaining and start your own freaking event - rent a fairgrounds - line up the vendors - publicize the heck out of it - charge admission - and run it as a business. And then let's see how you do.

'nuff said.

 

Richie C. posted:
Moonson posted:
Dennis LaGrua posted:

Open events will always be in a better position to thrive than closed meets. Just about every show and event that I can name (or attend)  for every purpose is open to the public. If York continues as an exclusionary event it will last a few more years, but with rapidly changing demographicsthat business model cannot survive . The objective of a business is to attract as many customers easily as possibleSomehow this message is not getting across. Ignorance can sometimes be defined as doing things the same way and expecting a different result.  When Allentown, a show in two adjoining buildings (with an $8 admission) is able to attract half the audience of York, while the WGHOT show draws a higher attendance than York it seems to prove thatthere are still people out there that want to go to train shows. Why not reach them all?

I've high-lited the statements that make especially good sense to me, Dennis, and I support such a good sense approach to the TCA Meet's reality in the 21st Century.

FrankM

Except that the TCA is not a "business".

The TCA is an international non-profit organization of people who operate and collect toy trains, toy train accessories, toy train books, toy train paper, and anything else rail transport related, whose mission is basically to develop an appreciation of, preserve and promote the growth and enjoyment of collecting and operating toy, model and scale trains.

And yet, I smell money at the heart of it all. Such words as "preserve and promote the GROWTH and enjoyment of collecting..." Each of those considerations requires MONEY. No? The more the merrier, too,  eh? Huh? And where does it come from in any SUSTAINED way? Less visitors/ Less hobbyists? Being unwelcoming?

So, I guess what I am suggesting is>>>>>>CHANGE what was and is to something NEW and better.

Last edited by Moonson
's idealMoonson posted:
Richie C. posted:
Moonson posted:
Dennis LaGrua posted:

Open events will always be in a better position to thrive than closed meets. Just about every show and event that I can name (or attend)  for every purpose is open to the public. If York continues as an exclusionary event it will last a few more years, but with rapidly changing demographicsthat business model cannot survive . The objective of a business is to attract as many customers easily as possibleSomehow this message is not getting across. Ignorance can sometimes be defined as doing things the same way and expecting a different result.  When Allentown, a show in two adjoining buildings (with an $8 admission) is able to attract half the audience of York, while the WGHOT show draws a higher attendance than York it seems to prove thatthere are still people out there that want to go to train shows. Why not reach them all?

I've high-lited the statements that make especially good sense to me, Dennis, and I support such a good sense approach to the TCA Meet's reality in the 21st Century.

FrankM

Except that the TCA is not a "business".

The TCA is an international non-profit organization of people who operate and collect toy trains, toy train accessories, toy train books, toy train paper, and anything else rail transport related, whose mission is basically to develop an appreciation of, preserve and promote the growth and enjoyment of collecting and operating toy, model and scale trains.

And yet, I smell money at the heart of it all. Such words as "preserve and promote the GROWTH and enjoyment of collecting..." Each of those considerations requires MONEY. No? The more the merrier, too,  eh? Huh? And where does it come from in any SUSTAINED way? Less visitors/ Less hobbyists? Being unwelcoming?

So, I guess what I am suggesting is>>>>>>CHANGE what was and is to something NEW and better.

I agree that Money is at the heart of it, but I think there's a distinction between a non-profit organization needing money to sustain itself and promote it's mission versus going into business for itself.

It seems to me that the TCA has done a pretty good job for the last 60 years at sustaining itself and promoting the hobby by raising money through dues and other charitable endeavors - No ?

And why does it fall on the TCA to have to change its fundamental non-profit model, eh ? Let's not forget that York is primarily a "meet" for members all across the world to come together to enjoy the hobby.  I'm sure if they start running out of Money, we'll know about it.

If none of the malcontents are willing to step up to the plate and start their own show instead of criticizing the TCA, how about the major manufacturers getting together and forming a trade association and putting on the biggest and baddest train show in the country instead of relying on a non-profitorganization to promote the hobby ?

As far as being "unwelcoming", I have no first-hand knowledge of that and am always skeptical of third-party stories I hear. Besides, I'm from Massachusetts - we're all very welcoming here ! 

As a member and director of several non-profits, I know it's a death spiral to not be able to promote an organization to the public by offering them a taste of what the organization is all about.  The TCA membership is aging and shrinking; in no alternate universe is that a good thing.  The TCA is not a charity; it's goal is not to give away whatever money it raises, and even charities need to evolve to ensure their survival.  The TCA IS a business whether or not it's a non-profit; it needs $$ to achieve its goal of providing benefits to and to grow its membership.  I believe the Eastern Division did a smart thing by opening its marketplace to the public; the dealers who are TCA members should have the opportunity to sell their wares to help them thrive and remain an integral part of this hobby.  Some of the show must remain members-only however, so it doesn't overstep its mission for its members.  As long as the Eastern Division is careful not to veer too far away from its mission, this can only benefit the TCA and its members.

Well, I have to step up here.......Is Richie C and Dennis the same person?  I think not!  If Richie bothered to read and comprehend and REALIZE that I copied a quote from Dennis , (above my words) which was what I was referring too..........

He'd see that we were explaining the same TCA conditions to those arguing for a completely open EDTCA meet (among other points)

I'll take the chill pill if Richie puts his tinfoil hat back on..........leaving it on so I don't have to respond to really misguided posts......

This debate about whether the TCA should operate more like a business or as a non-profit is reminiscent of why I usually throw the National Headquarters News in the recycling bin as soon as it arrives.  I have never been a part of an organization whose bylaws are amended several times a year after protracted debate.  Ever hear or rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic?

Now I realize that by tossing the HQ News I am missing out on having a member complaint form readily at hand, parsing the nuances of the latest iteration of the bylaws or wading through a 'publication' that is at least 80% advertising sent to me from a Non-Profit organization.

As my last post suggesting that the TCA and the York show should become more welcoming and friendly was deleted by the moderators I am sure this one will not last long so let me make my point and hope at least a few people see it.

As a non-profit the TCA can act as a business where doing so would result in greater success.  Just like I am sure the TCA has those new fangled gadgets called 'komputers' in at least some of its offices it would have greater success if it were to do more to attract additional members and spent less time on rules and bylaws.

The TCA isn't a business per se (a 501c3 is either a service organization or an educational organization, or with the TCA, both), but there are business principles that it or any group/club can and should be looking at. One of the cardinal rules of business is to attract new clients, a bar that caters only to a a clique of regulars isn't going to stay in business long, a car brand that only attracts 'old men' (Buick, anyone?) isn't going to last. Ideally a business will grow, but at the very least, you want a model where you have replacement, where your business might not grow but also doesn't contract, replacement is better than decline, and slower decline is better than rapid decline. 

To me it sounds like those running York understood that a closed group that doesn't promote itself is going to end up like the old man bar that withers and dies. The first change I recall them making, that caused many to grumble, was to stop the requirement that other TCA members had to vouch for you, whatever benefit that gave was outweighed by it being a hurdle. I think it was a great compromise to turn York into a hybrid, where the general public can experience some things, while keeping member only benefits, and by allowing non members to experience the member experience, the way a YMCA or Gym allows someone to get a temporary membership to see if they like it, which is a path to new people joining. Yeah, if toy trains were the thing of the day, if there was tons of interest among the public, a closed meet would make new members join to be part of the 'gang'; but given that isn't the way it is, having an 'exclusive club' translates into decline when you have something that for various reasons is not in the public mindset or is in some ways dwindling. Making York closed again is like shooting yourself in the foot just before a race you are hoping to run. 

Sorry, Red - your post didn't include any quotation marks as to a prior post.

In fact, it stated, "The O.P.  of above doesn't get the the fact that this argument doesn't apply to the public attending York.....if more (public) folks were into O Gauge, this thread would almost be a moot. It's simple, join or don't join the TCA!  That is ignorance 4 sure!"

I was the O.P. immediately above that. If you meant to comment on someone else's post or quote above mine, then you should have hit "reply with quote" on their post or done a better job of quoting someone else's remarks, so I don't have to waste time on someone's unintelligible posts.

I'll put the tin foil hat on after you put the cone on. 

York should be whatever the members of the Eastern Division of the TCA want it to be. It really is as simple as that. All the rest of us can either choose to partake of their hospitality or simply pass on the event.

Personally, I have thoroughly enjoyed every York Meet I have been fortunate enough to attend since 1989, and even though I may have offered my suggestions for changes in the past, they were/are nothing more than suggestions.

Joe Hohmann posted:
bigkid posted:

a car brand that only attracts 'old men' (Buick, anyone?) 

Buick also is attractive to Chinese Communists. It's the top seller in China.

The Buicks sold in China are not the same models sold here (the Envoy I believe is made there though), but that misses the point.Buick in the US is known as an old man car, its buying demographics have the typical buyer late 40s and up, and for the long term that isn't good,it is why Olds was shut down. Buick knows that,it is why its advertising leans heavily on 'this isn't your father's Buick', or you see ads featuring these young,hip urban types 'that's a Buick???'.

And the analogy is clear, you don't attract new audience you die off,you need to attract new blood in the long run.

Dave45681 posted:
jd-train posted:

I would disagree that it should be a totally closed meet.

If the public sales help make is worthwhile for the dealers to go to York, I see this as a win for everyone!

Jim

But that point is under debate, to the best of my knowledge.

For years, the cry from dealers was to let the public in, so they could experience the meet.  That has now happened for the dealer halls over the last few meets, but this is the meet where several importers and magazine companies decided to not attend, so apparently the public did not enhance their bottom line enough to balance the decline due to other factors. 

So whether it helped is debatable.  As J611 mentioned, the demographic remains the same.  That factor cannot be altered much by admitting the public, it would seem.

The (sad, but true) joke among me and my dealer and some other colleagues that socialize at York is that "20 years ago, when I joined (shortly after graduating college and having a real job), I was one of the youngest members of the TCA.  It's now 20+ years later, and I am still one of the youngest members of the TCA."

-Dave

 

Ditto that. 

Joe Hohmann posted:
Dan Padova posted:

The way I understand it, is that not all of the halls are open to the public.  Why ?   

Well, if all the halls were open to the public, some of us may decide not to pay TCA membership dues any more just to be able to attend York. As it is, we may have already lost a few who were only interested in what was being sold in the Orange and Purple Halls. We are already loosing members due to old age and death. Why add another reason?

Bingo. People who are saying they see no reason not to have it open to the public need to understand this. I think a lot of former members now just pay the small fee to attend as a member of the public. 

I am not saying it should not be open to the public, but it requires the inside knowledge of the numbers and a strategy. Not some kind of no brainer 

 

pennsy484 posted:
Dave45681 posted:
jd-train posted:

I would disagree that it should be a totally closed meet.

If the public sales help make is worthwhile for the dealers to go to York, I see this as a win for everyone!

Jim

But that point is under debate, to the best of my knowledge.

For years, the cry from dealers was to let the public in, so they could experience the meet.  That has now happened for the dealer halls over the last few meets, but this is the meet where several importers and magazine companies decided to not attend, so apparently the public did not enhance their bottom line enough to balance the decline due to other factors. 

So whether it helped is debatable.  As J611 mentioned, the demographic remains the same.  That factor cannot be altered much by admitting the public, it would seem.

The (sad, but true) joke among me and my dealer and some other colleagues that socialize at York is that "20 years ago, when I joined (shortly after graduating college and having a real job), I was one of the youngest members of the TCA.  It's now 20+ years later, and I am still one of the youngest members of the TCA."

-Dave

 

Ditto that. 

I honestly don't understand what there is to debate on my original comment. 

The dealers don't care if their sales were made to TCA members, TCA guests, or the general public.  They look at the bottom line to see if sales justify their costs to attend.

Worse case scenario would be zero additional sales to a dealer from the general public.  Any sales to the general public would be sales above those of TCA members and guests.  If total sales from all TCA members, guests, and the public do not meet their expectations, they may opt to not attend future Meets.

I wouldn't sit back and wait for factual numbers from the dealers on sales to the general public.  When I purchased items from three different dealers all they did was record the item number and sales price.

Jim

jd-train posted:
pennsy484 posted:
Dave45681 posted:
jd-train posted:

I would disagree that it should be a totally closed meet.

If the public sales help make is worthwhile for the dealers to go to York, I see this as a win for everyone!

Jim

But that point is under debate, to the best of my knowledge.

For years, the cry from dealers was to let the public in, so they could experience the meet.  That has now happened for the dealer halls over the last few meets, but this is the meet where several importers and magazine companies decided to not attend, so apparently the public did not enhance their bottom line enough to balance the decline due to other factors. 

So whether it helped is debatable.  As J611 mentioned, the demographic remains the same.  That factor cannot be altered much by admitting the public, it would seem.

The (sad, but true) joke among me and my dealer and some other colleagues that socialize at York is that "20 years ago, when I joined (shortly after graduating college and having a real job), I was one of the youngest members of the TCA.  It's now 20+ years later, and I am still one of the youngest members of the TCA."

-Dave

 

Ditto that. 

I honestly don't understand what there is to debate on my original comment. 

The dealers don't care if their sales were made to TCA members, TCA guests, or the general public.  They look at the bottom line to see if sales justify their costs to attend.

Worse case scenario would be zero additional sales to a dealer from the general public.  Any sales to the general public would be sales above those of TCA members and guests.  If total sales from all TCA members, guests, and the public do not meet their expectations, they may opt to not attend future Meets.

I wouldn't sit back and wait for factual numbers from the dealers on sales to the general public.  When I purchased items from three different dealers all they did was record the item number and sales price.

Jim

I was on the board of a school and a previous board lowered tuition a thousand bucks to attract new students. No-brainer? Didn't increase admission but cost the school $200k per year.

How many folks ditched TCA membership at $50, plus York admission, for just paying public admission? There are other factors to consider. 

Last edited by pennsy484
jd-train posted:

I honestly don't understand what there is to debate on my original comment. 

The dealers don't care if their sales were made to TCA members, TCA guests, or the general public.  They look at the bottom line to see if sales justify their costs to attend.

........

I'll apologize since it was my first reply to your comment that keeps popping up.

My point was just that the addition of the public may not have "made it worth the Dealers' while to come" since several did not come to this most recent meet. 

My main point was that if the public didn't all go to a previous York meet before this one (how many times have you heard of something and said "I'll try to do that one day when I can fit it in my schedule..." vs.  "I'm going to do that the first time it happens, regardless of what else may be going on in my life at the time"?  I'll bet some people heard that "oh the public is allowed in now" when it started a few meets back, but maybe didn't attend right away.  If any of them went for the first time this meet, they missed seeing Lionel, Atlas, OGR, and CTT (at least - maybe others).  If the public shows up and says "What do you mean Lionel(Atlas/OGR/CTT) isn't here?  They've always been here before?!", They'd possibly be a little upset that they bothered, depending on their interests, of course.

So some dealers gave it only a few meets with the added public before bailing on this April's meet (and presumably future Aprils - but I don't know if any have officially declared that yet).  Those dealers will likely tell you the "public admission" ball got rolling too late and they were losing money coming to the meet for quite a while before the public was admitted.  Which may in fact be true.  But now any public that did come got to see a few large empty areas for the 2 importers and the 2 largest paper publications in O gauge.  (as well as the other empty spots not specifically mentioned - I am not trying to compile a complete list here)

The point brought up in other posts about people who bailed on their membership since they can now get into the Dealer halls without being a member is a good one, though.  Some may claim they mostly shopped for new items in those 2 halls anyway.  I suspect some probably used to at least take a walk through one or 2 of the Member halls, and who knows maybe one of 10 people like that bought something from a member's table. 

So possibly the Member halls suffer a little from people who say "If I can get into Dealer halls without membership, I can't justify the $50 membership to just walk through the Member halls on the low chance I may buy something".  So the Member halls may indirectly suffer from the public admission, but not as much as TCA National does from the lost memberships.

My 4 cents (too long for just 2 cents )

-Dave

Last edited by Dave45681

Jeff,

Respectfully, I think this is an apples to oranges comparison.  My comment wasn't directed as to whether it was good for the TCA itself, but was it good for the dealers to be open to the public.  In extension, is it good for the members (personally) to have a greater opportunity to purchase items from the dealers at York.  The TCA will have to make their own guestimates as to the impact on their bottom line, and whether it matters to the organization. TCA would also likely have to factor in the value, if any, of promoting the hobby to none TCA members by having the dealer halls open to the public.

Josef asks some good questions, but I'm not sure (base on my experience with three dealers) whether they would be able to attribute what percentage of their sales to the public and what percentage to TCA members and their guests.

I think the bottom line is that if the dealers find it profitable (no matter the customer type) they may return to York. Otherwise maybe not. Those folks looking for exposure, MTH, 3rd Rail, etc. may based their decisions on other factors.

Jim

bigkid posted:
Joe Hohmann posted:
bigkid posted:

a car brand that only attracts 'old men' (Buick, anyone?) 

Buick also is attractive to Chinese Communists. It's the top seller in China.

The Buicks sold in China are not the same models sold here (the Envoy I believe is made there though), but that misses the point.Buick in the US is known as an old man car, its buying demographics have the typical buyer late 40s and up, and for the long term that isn't good,it is why Olds was shut down. Buick knows that,it is why its advertising leans heavily on 'this isn't your father's Buick', or you see ads featuring these young,hip urban types 'that's a Buick???'.

And the analogy is clear, you don't attract new audience you die off,you need to attract new blood in the long run.

I like old Buicks. Dad had a 1959 Electra 225 and when I was a young man I had a 1953 Super. You could work on those but today's Buicks as well as any other car built today are to complex. 

Beyond the one-time guest option, York should set the price of admission to equal the TCA annual dues, and provide a "free" one-year membership for that price.  Or maybe 1/2 dues, with a "free" 6-month membership. 

I just don't get the not-uncommon attitude of being willing to join TCA only as a way to go to York.  Other train organizations (LCCA, LOTS, NMRA) have dues that are similar to or higher than TCA (IIRC, my NMRA renewal was $75), and they offer far less in return, yet thousands of people are members of these organizations.  In addition to meets, trading forums, and publications, TCA is unique in that it enforces standards, operates a reference library, and maintains a wonderful museum that both preserves and displays a stunning array of all kinds of toy trains.  TCA maintains the historical record of our hobby - NO OTHER train organization does anything like this.  This is IMPORTANT and has VALUE.

I joined TCA 30 years ago without knowing about York.  I maintained my membership for many years when I was unable to attend York - going there is a 550 mile trip each way - and I'll maintain my membership even if I stop attending.

IMHO, people who enjoy this (or any) hobby and participate in it should pay dues to an organization that supports it.  Doing otherwise is short sighted and selfish.  

For those who don't like the way TCA is run - join up and volunteer.  Generally, being elected to a local office requires little more than getting to know a few members and volunteering for a position.

Last edited by Mallard4468
jd-train posted:

I'm sorry but some of you start from a faulty premise, and this is where it is different from some of the for-profit shows previously mentioned.  The function of the York Meet is NOT to maximize profit, it is to serve as a Meet for TCA members.  It is a function of the Eastern Division of the TCA.  I don't know why some of the gentlemen on this forum have a hard time grasping this concept.  It is rehashed over and over and over again, every six months like clockwork.

I think the Eastern Division and the TCA have embraced whatever makes sense (TO THEIR MEMBERS) to make their Meet a success.  IF the Meet shrinks in size, so be it, as that Meet serves the needs of its members.

Member halls will NEVER be open to the general public, as most Eastern Division members do NOT want this to happen. There are several reasons for this. Among them is the taxation issue, but this is not the only issue.

Dealer halls are open to the public. I think this is a great idea. If there is enough extra revenue to entice the dealers to continue to come to Meet, I think this is a win - win, as this is advantageous to the membership as well.

Regarding TCA membership, this is a members only Meet. If you want to attend (go to the member halls) you must be a TCA member. Again, I don't understand why this is a difficult concept to understand.  The ability to be a one-time guest at the meet, is also a great idea. One can be the guest of a TCA member, or of the TCA itself.  The TCA reports that there were 60 new members joining the organization at the October 2018 meet.  New members can join with a trial membership or a regular membership.

Personally, I think TCA's idea of allowing folks to be one-time guests of the TCA itself is a great idea.  I had always wanted to go to York, but being more of a scale model train operator than a collector of toy trains, had never joined the TCA. I had so much fun at the Meet this past Thursday, that I have joined the TCA.

As a new member of the TCA's Eastern Division, kudos to the Eastern Division for putting on such a fun event!  

Jim

 

 

 

Glad to have you in TCA.  

Rusty Traque posted:

See this thread has shifted to Buick's (which I find the music used in the commercials very annoying,) maybe it's time for this to become a closed thread...

Rusty

No problem, Rusty! I can make that happen, and likely will in the morning. Having too much fun reading all the comments being made by so many who apparently believe they have a better way to run a train meet like the York Meet. And yet, I've never seen any individual, group, or other TCA Division give it a try.

As for me: I just want to thank the tireless and dedicated Eastern Div. volunteers who give so much time and effort to doing something for their members and, in fact, all TCA members.

Allan Miller posted:
Rusty Traque posted:

See this thread has shifted to Buick's (which I find the music used in the commercials very annoying,) maybe it's time for this to become a closed thread...

Rusty

No problem, Rusty! I can make that happen, and likely will in the morning. Having too much fun reading all the comments being made by so many who apparently believe they have a better way to run a train meet like the York Meet. And yet, I've never seen any individual, group, or other TCA Division give it a try.

As for me: I just want to thank the tireless and dedicated Eastern Div. volunteers who give so much time and effort to doing something for their members and, in fact, all TCA members.

Allan...no need to wait until tomorrow morning....  Many of the posts here have gone far off the original question....might as well put the thread to sleep...DONE!

Last edited by OGR CEO-PUBLISHER
Post

OGR Publishing, Inc., 1310 Eastside Centre Ct, Suite 6, Mountain Home, AR 72653
800-980-OGRR (6477)
www.ogaugerr.com

×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×
×