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If anyone wonders why the Z-Controller and other chopped waveform transformers cause issues with some environments, one only has to look at the waveform, UGLY!   The output of the brick is just fine until it goes through the Z-Controller!  Adding a 2A load (8 ohms) cleans up the ringing a bit, but it's still ugly.

Since the CW-80 gets such a bad rap, I thought I'd check it out.  WOW, with no load it really is UGLY!   Looks pretty much like the Z-Controller with the 2A load.  I think all the ringing with no or a light load may be the CW-80's undoing.

Full Scale Z-1000 Controller Output

Half Scale Z-1000 Controller Output

Z-1000 Brick Output

Z-1000 Z-Controller Full Throttle Waveform 2A Load

CW-80 Half Throttle

CW-80 Full Throttle

CW-80 Half Throttle 2A Load

CW-80 Full Throttle 2A Load

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Yes, I have seen that drawing before; never saw a triac drawn like that.

I have one CW-80 left, maybe I'll pull it apart later in the week just to see if there is anything to be learned. Who knows, maybe that ringing is from the fan motor! It is noticeably asymmetrical, as is the fan motor voltage/current due to the half-wave rectifier.

PLCPROF,

   Simply put the CW-80 in the circle 7 file and forget about it!  I will not even run bumper cars with that piece of unsafe junk any more, just purchased another old KW from one of the OGR members, for more than reasonable money however, to be used with one of the Christmas layouts we provide for the US Military Veterans Children each year.

PCRR/Dave

Last edited by Pine Creek Railroad

I have a different, and possibly more relevant question for you "scope wizards."  What does the waveform look like when it reaches the MOTOR?  Assuming that you're running a modern, can-motored loco; and further assuming that the electronic E-unit (or Legacy motor driver, or PS3 motor driver) does some "chopping" of it's own, you could end up with a waveform that's nasty, brutish, and short.  Or possibly a motor that's starved for power.

A long time ago when my Dad had a scope handy, we looked at the waveforms coming out of the basic Lionel electronic E-unit from a 1980s starter set loco, and also the waveform from a K-Line K-3003 train set 4-6-2.  The K-Line's was much more interesting, it seemed to increase the duty cycle proportional to an increase in the input voltage.  I wasn't able to capture images then, but with the advent of Legacy, PS3, etc., this experiment might be worth repeating.  

What you have posted so far is interesting and informative, thanks for sharing!

Last edited by Ted S
Ted Sowirka posted:

I have a different, and possibly more relevant question for you "scope wizards."  What does the waveform look like when it reaches the MOTOR?  Assuming that you're running a modern, can-motored loco; and further assuming that the electronic E-unit (or Legacy motor driver, or PS3 motor driver) does some "chopping" of it's own, you could end up with a waveform that's nasty, brutish, and short.  Or possibly a motor that's starved for power.

 

Remembering that can motors run on DC, and that our power is rectified (filtered?) with the loco, it would hopefully get a fresh start as a DC-ish signal before being perforated by the e-unit or what have you.

I have a Williams e-unit and an ERR cruise commander unit apart on the bench, I will look at those for you within the next day or two. Don't have any Legacy I am willing to take apart, getting the shell back on is murder.....

Last edited by PLCProf
Landsteiner posted:

The CW80 works just fine with all 21st century Lionel products, in conventional, LionChief or TMCC/Legacy mode.   Clearly non-Lionel stuff occasionally is a problem judging from some people's experiences.  Williams locos seem to work fine in my hands.  Haven't tried it with postwar or prewar locos.

While it may work, it doesn't look very efficient.

John, Why the freq change on the CW-80?  G

GGG posted:

John, What would really be interesting is to see the K-Line 120W Power Chief. Supposedly the improved COPY of the CW-80.  G

Sure, just send me one and I'll check it.

GGG posted:

John, Why the freq change on the CW-80?  G

Frequency change?  If you're referring to the displayed frequency, I'm assuming that was measuring the ringing on the waveform instead of the basic waveform.

Gunrunnerjohn, have you ever check out the waveform on a Z-4000? I'm going to try and get the club to purchase one. They are all hard core Lionel and would rather chew nails than buy anything from MTH except rolling stock. Right now they are using the 275w PW-ZW on the club layout which has fried the smoke units in three of my cabooses when running Legacy/TMCC. I thought one was going to burst into flames. I should have ran it at 16v, maybe even12v instead of 18v. I always check the voltage before I run trains. My friend who is a Lionel tech fixed them, but I only run them with my ZW-C at 14v to 16v now. I only use non-smoking cabooses on the club layout.

Denny:

In addition to what John will show you please beware that if your club is running TMCC/Legacy w/o any powermaster or TPC between the transformer and track the Z-4000 may not be appropriate to use. If there are powermasters or TPC's in between there should be no issue. TMCC and Legacy locos have been designed around chopped waveform transformers. The Z-4000 is basically a smooth wave. Smoke output and auto coupler action are sometimes affected. From what I understand both the powermaster and the TPC change the waveform to a chopped  version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMR25JoCZiU

Joe

Thanks Joe. Now that I have thought about it, I'm pretty sure their not going to go with the Z-4000. MTH is a swear word around here. Which is funny considering my friend and club member who is a Lionel tech lives in St. Joseph, MI less than a mile from the MTH lab which he despises. I'm not exaggerating.

There's no issue running Lionel equipment, including the PowerMaster, on the Z4000.  OTOH, there's no reason to spend that much on a transformer to connect to the PowerMaster, the PowerHouse 180 is a better choice as you get 360 watts from two of them for about half the price of the Z4000.

People that "hate" one manufacturer or another basically have a personal problem IMO.   All the manufacturers make some good stuff and some losers.  The object of the exercise is to cherry pick the good stuff from the pile.

You don't want to use the standard chopped waveform controllers on a PowerMaster or a TIU, as the logic assumes a sine wave as input.  Using the Z4000 with it's synthesized sine wave works fine, I should have taken a picture of that when I tried it.

As you can see, even at full throttle, the chopped waveform transformers don't output a decent looking sine wave.  In an interesting twist, if you have a brick feeding a TIU and set a variable channel to full throttle (22V on the display), you will get a pure sine wave out of the TIU.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

There's no issue running Lionel equipment, including the PowerMaster, on the Z4000.  OTOH, there's no reason to spend that much on a transformer to connect to the PowerMaster, the PowerHouse 180 is a better choice as you get 360 watts from two of them for about half the price of the Z4000.

People that "hate" one manufacturer or another basically have a personal problem IMO.   All the manufacturers make some good stuff and some losers.  The object of the exercise is to cherry pick the good stuff from the pile.

Well all I can say is most train guys around here do not like MTH, but then there are guys in my club that don't like modern trains. They are strictly post-war. They don't own computers or cell phones either. I would give MTH a try, but not their DCS system. I don't understand why it's set up the way it is.

Last edited by DennyM

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