Z-4000 Trouble Shooting

This is 100% external and your track wiring simply has connected the 2 outputs. Because the transformer is in phase (it's one transformer) the outputs don't short out and the meter just shows the voltage that actually is there.

This isn't the first time someone made this mistake.

This issue could either be caused by hot wires connecting both loops together or possibly the track if the loops are connected together through an unisolated crossover.

Thank you for your responses, I do have two crossover track sections on the two large loops that I am powering with the Z-4000. The crossovers are designed to switch the outer train to the inner loop and visa versa however; the crossover track sections are not being powered currently and their wires have been removed. Is there anything else I should be looking for?

If you want want to have the loops be electrically isolated then there needs to be a gap of some sort to prevent center rail electrical connection through the crossovers.  If using tubular track, this is done with fibre pins at the switch end between loops.  If using FasTrack, then an isolation piece is typically used between switches.  Another option would be to cut a gap in the center rail.

Ok, I have tested the Z-4000 by setting-up two straight tracks to test the accuracy of the voltage and amps.  The throttles work fine and only train at time powers up when its respective throttle is thrown.  I have cut the center rail in each of the crossover sections between their respective switches to eliminate power between the loops.  I checked the terminal blocks and connections for the two loops and they appear correct.  The problem appears to stem from the outer loop "A".  As soon as I connect the leads from the terminal block to the transformer my problems begin.  When I power up the "A" loop, the amps increase quickly and the red light begins to flash, which I understand to mean there is an overload of amps.  The "B" loop seems to work fine but again, both voltage meters are increasing in volts.  When I disconnect the leads for the "A" loop the "B" loop works fine however,  voltage is still being registered on the voltage meter for the "A" loop.  What's more telling is the fact that prior to getting Z-4000, I was using a Lionel ZW to power both the "A" and "B" loops and had no issues.  Between the time I was using the Lionel ZW and the acquisition of the Z-4000 no alterations to the wiring had occurred.

I even tried bypassing the terminal block for "A" loop connections altogether by simply running wires from the transformer directly to the track and I all that happened was that the amperage shot up and the red warning on the transformer glowed red.

I am at my wit's end with this right now and was hoping to have this problem remedied prior to my grand daughter coming over on Easter to see the layout.  Needless to say this is most disappointing.

@Butchie posted:

Ok, I have tested the Z-4000 by setting-up two straight tracks to test the accuracy of the voltage and amps.  The throttles work fine and only train at time powers up when its respective throttle is thrown. I have cut the center rail in each of the crossover sections between their respective switches to eliminate power between the loops.  I checked the terminal blocks and connections for the two loops and they appear correct.  The problem appears to stem from the outer loop "A".  As soon as I connect the leads from the terminal block to the transformer my problems begin.  When I power up the "A" loop, the amps increase quickly and the red light begins to flash, which I understand to mean there is an overload of amps.  The "B" loop seems to work fine but again, both voltage meters are increasing in volts.  When I disconnect the leads for the "A" loop the "B" loop works fine however,  voltage is still being registered on the voltage meter for the "A" loop.  What's more telling is the fact that prior to getting Z-4000, I was using a Lionel ZW to power both the "A" and "B" loops and had no issues.  Between the time I was using the Lionel ZW and the acquisition of the Z-4000 no alterations to the wiring had occurred.

I even tried bypassing the terminal block for "A" loop connections altogether by simply running wires from the transformer directly to the track and I all that happened was that the amperage shot up and the red warning on the transformer glowed red.

I am at my wit's end with this right now and was hoping to have this problem remedied prior to my grand daughter coming over on Easter to see the layout.  Needless to say this is most disappointing.

That would seem to eliminate the Z-4000 as the source of the problem.

Is anything else connected to the transformer throttle outputs besides the terminal blocks ?

Do you use a separate terminal block for each throttle and that terminal block only serves one loop ?

Is it possible you have a feed from one terminal block connecting to the wrong loop ?

Do the terminal blocks only supply track power - no accessories ?

What happens if you by-pass the terminal block that feeds outer loop "A" and just connect the throttle output that feeds that terminal block directly to the outer loop ?

Sounds to me there is a connection between the loops and possibly a short between the inner and outer rails.  I would take a voltmeter and do a resistance check at various points looking for a short and for continuity between the center rails of the loops. I realize you said there were no changes in the layout, but what you describe in one aspect is a short and another a cross connection of power between the loops.  If the track truly has not changed, I would look at the wires used to connect the transformer to the track and the connections. Might be something there.

Assuming there is nothing on the rails, be careful of trusting the voltage reading on the Z4000 controller, I was told there should be a load however small in order to get a reliable reading. 

You do not say what kind of track and switches you are using. Switches can be wired to provide center rail power to all center rails on the switch. This becomes a continuity issue. If power can get to any one point it gets to everything.  There needs to be insulators or complete gaps cut in the center rail to ensure an electrical break.  Good luck hunting this down.

Thank you for your response and I will certainly check the track again.  The switches although wired, are not currently connected to any source of electricity

@Richie C. posted:

That would seem to eliminate the Z-4000 as the source of the problem.

Is anything else connected to the transformer throttle outputs besides the terminal blocks ?

Do you use a separate terminal block for each throttle and that terminal block only serves one loop ?

Is it possible you have a feed from one terminal block connecting to the wrong loop ?

Do the terminal blocks only supply track power - no accessories ?

What happens if you by-pass the terminal block that feeds outer loop "A" and just connect the throttle output that feeds that terminal block directly to the outer loop ?

Thank you for your response, and there is nothing else connected tot he transformer other than the two loops;

Separate terminal blocks are being used for each of the "A" and "B" loops;

Since I have checked the "A" loop, which appears to be the problem loop, I don't find any feeds from that loop to the "B" loop;

For loops "A' and "B", terminal blocks only power the track and no accessories.  All accessories are either powered by an independent power source, or track power in the case of a gateman, but those accessories are on other independent loops , which are not causing any issues.

When is bypassed the terminal block for the "A" loop and connected the transformer directly to the track all that happened was that the amperage shot up and the red warning on the transformer glowed red.

If it matters, I am using Atlas shadow rail for most of layout

@Butchie posted:

When is bypassed the terminal block for the "A" loop and connected the transformer directly to the track all that happened was that the amperage shot up and the red warning on the transformer glowed red.

That is the definition of a short. Somewhere you have a direct connection between hot and common.  Every once in a while they can be intermittent which can be a real challenge to find. But kind of sounds like there is some resistance - if is was a direct short it would pop right away. Do you have any old wires connected. As they age, the insulation breaks down and power starts leaking through. Usually that causes the insulation to over heat and start a fire burning up the troublesome wire. You could touch various points/wires to see if any are getting hot.   When the transformer gives you the red light does it also blow the breaker?

I have never heard of Atlas Shadow Track - I cannot find on the web - do you have a link? 

K-Line shadow rail.

Thanks for the insight, at this juncture, I almost think I should rerun the four loop wires for the “A” loop. The Atlas track simply has a black center rail, which is not very noticeable once the ballast has been added. I believe  shadow rail may be the term name for Lionel or Gargraves, track that has the black center rail, all of which I have used over the years.

Ok, I do own a voltage meter however, electricity is not my strongest area.  I have spent some time on YouTube researching how to perform a resistance test but most of the videos appear to relate to the UK as opposed to USA.  Are there some tips you can pass on to assist in performing the test on the terminal black wires connected to the track and the terminal wire to the transformer, thanks.

A picture of the front panel of your meter would simplify offering suggestions going forward.

PLEASE SEE ATTACHED ASTRO AI METER

OL means there is not a circuit on a digital multimeter.  The other possibility is it is out of range. So much for the internet for information.  Now the question is where were the probes when the OL display was obtained.

Suggest getting back to basics.  Physically separate the loops and use the same power source side (A or B) to check operation on each loop. Unlike O or 027 Lionel track there are no paper insulators between the metal ties which if bad can cause a short. If you are still displaying the same overload condition there is something physically wrong with a section of your track or your connection. Remove the power feed, put one probe on the center rail and then see if there is a connection between either outside rail and the center rail. My meter goes to "1" not "OL".  The other thing you should do is touch both probes together to see how the meter responds to a direct short.

While the Z is not perfect I have found it to be quite reliable.

OL = Open Loop, ie. no continuity through the tested circuit or the resistance is too high to be measured by the meter.  When the meter probes are connected one to hot and the other to common, this is what you want to see.

However, to find the source of what is causing excessive current flow from the Z4000, the opposite condition will be observed on the meter's display when it's probes are connected to any portion of the wiring or track circuit that is causing excessive current flow from the Z4000.  If the meter reads 0Ω or close to zero Ohms, then that part of the circuit and everything connected to it can be suspected to be a potential cause of the short.

To save time diagnosing the exact location of a short, I like to divide and isolate the circuit somewhere in the middle (physically disconnecting wire and/or track) and check each half, one at a time.  One of the two halves will show a short circuit (~0Ω) on the meter.  Continue dividing the shorted half into progressively smaller sections (wire and/or track) until the bad component(s) is/are identified.

As previously mentioned, the cause could be bad wire insulation, a stray strand of wire touching an adjacent terminal, a piece of metal debris on the track or any number of other things that could cause unintentional conductivity between hot and common.  Not yet mentioned in this topic is the possibility of a failed shorted TVS diode, if you’ve installed any.  The divide and check methodical approach will help narrow down and identify where to look for the source of a short circuit.

Thank you both for your replies. When I took the picture of the voltage meter I simply turned it on and received the OL display, I didn’t mean for anyone to think I had actually attempted to perform the test yet.