Are you a switchman (2)

Rob, I can "Name That Tune" in sixteen notes.

What are the  MT cars? 5 & 6?

Gregg posted:

What are the  MT cars? 5 & 6?

Maybe you didn't/don't use that abbreviation in Canada but "MT" usually means "Empty" car in the U.S.. 

Big Jim posted:

Rob, I can "Name That Tune" in sixteen notes.

I have faith in you.  My solution has 20.  Let's see if anyone else will play.

OK thanks Rob.. We do  use" ety".  Come on  all you trainman... We can't let a  hogger out switch us. (like he did last time)

Heading out the door but back later .

In real life I'd do it in 14, but, I didn't make the rules.

Let me try this:

A.  Uncouple caboose from car #10

B. Pull cars #7,8,9 from track #1

C. Pull cars #1,2,3,4,5,6 from track #2

D. Place cars #1,2,3,4 on mainline and couple to caboose.

E. Spot cars #5 on end of track #2, spot car #6 one car length (40ft) east of car #5.

F. Place cars #7,8 on mainline and couple to car #4.

G.Spot car #9 on track #1 across from car #5 that is on track #2.

H. Spot car #10 on track #1 across from car #6 that is on track #2

I. Spot car #11 approx. 45 feet east of car #10 that is on track #2

J. couple cars #12,13 onto car #6 on track #2 and uncouple engine

K. Couple engine to car #8 on the mainline and test air

Train should be: caboose, cars #1,2,3,4,7,8 and engine facing east.

highball or turn off the electric power to the transformer.

(track #2 should be: bumper ,5ft of track, car #5, 50ft length of track, cars #6,#12,#13

(track #1 should be: bumper, car #9 spotted across from car #5, car#10, and car #11 spotted across from car #13 on track #2

I think I will just go back to running my trains in a big circle

Here goes.

Keith & I start in the same manor.

A.  Uncouple caboose from car #10

B. Pull cars #7,8,9 from track #1

C. Set cars 7 & 8 to caboose

D.  Cars  9 10 & 11 back to track 1. (spot the 3  cars, there's a mark painted on the rail)

E. now with cars 12 & 13  coupled on the engine pull track  pull track 2 and set 4 cars  to the train on the main.

F. back to track 2  with cars  5  6 12 & 13  and spot.  

G .  cut off engine . grab the train , brake test and get out of town.  

I don't know how many moves  .

I think I have 21 times that the engine was moved. 

Give or take 22 moves that I may have or may not have counted.   

 21 +(22 - 22 / 2 X 2)=

Well!!! I'm back to running in circles.

Big Jim posted:

In real life I'd do it in 14, but, I didn't make the rules.

You just  stay up in your cage and run the engine.... We can handle it.

Gregg posted:

Big Jim posted:

In real life I'd do it in 14, but, I didn't make the rules.

You just  stay up in your cage and run the engine.... We can handle it.

You guys are driving me crazy watching you switch! 

My solution:
First of all, don't crowd yourself. Stop back on the main line far enough to hold your pickup plus some more finagle room just in case you need it.

1.) Cut off cab and pull past ML switch.
2.) Back into track #1 and couple to Hold car. (In real life I would keep shoving in order to make all couplings in this track and save two moves, then work the air.)
3.) Couple to next car.
4.) Couple to next car.
5.) Pull all cars out past first inside switch.
6.) Back up and couple tp cars in track #2.
7.) Pull all cars out to main.
8.) Set out four 40' "east" cars to cab.
9.) Pull back past ML switch.
10.) Set two "Mty" cars in track #1 at the clearance point.
11.) Back out to ML.
12.) Set out two 50' "east" cars to train.
13.) Pull past ML switch.
14.) Shove remaining cars into track #2 past clearance point to where doors of cars 12 & 13 line up with the doors of the two "Mty" cars on track #1.
15.) Pull unit out on ML.
16.) Back up and couple to train.

OK  . .. A 3 man crew would work well in your scenario  and get the work done in short order.  Hang on to everything but caboose ,Lift everything,  pull out to the main and let'em go whether to the caboose or appropriate tracks. Then spot.

The least amount of moves is not always the quickest  or easiest.  The  perfect track would be on a slight downhill where a car will roll on it's own, not go out the other end and not come back at you.   (  coming back at you is not good ) 

Gregg posted:

OK  . .. A 3 man crew would work well in your scenario  and get the work done in short order.  Hang on to everything but caboose ,Lift everything,  pull out to the main and let'em go whether to the caboose or appropriate tracks. Then spot.

The least amount of moves is not always the quickest  or easiest.  The  perfect track would be on a slight downhill where a car will roll on it's own, not go out the other end and not come back at you.   (  coming back at you is not good ) 

 

 

What does that have to do with anything?

It has to do with switching,  Maybe not in this thread but switching in general.  

Well, having a three man crew makes a big difference. Having to stop just to get on and off a car is a big time killer too!

One of the keys to solving this problem has been identified where it was stated to build your two shoves to mirror each other making all doors line up.

We went to the compress with 12 mts, about 2/3 were 50' cars. For whatever reason, the conductor did not use this practice and we end up making 30+ moves.  Our fireman was a cowboy off the emergency board who hadn't switched the compress in decades.  When we finally finished and got back in the cab he asked, "what in ÷×%# were y'all doin' down there?!"  

Back in the day, every car spotted there was a 40' and life was easy. When 50' boxes became more common, switching there required more planning and more moves. 

Thanks men. This subject may not interest many, and I can't explain why, but I love it. 

Very interesting problem. Thanks for posting.

I was hoping the people on the model forums would look in on these discussions as I have always thought that a cotton compress would make a fine industry siding on a layout.  A compress makes fine use of 40' boxcars for any era, and makes an interesting challenge for the 40' plus 50' boxcar era.  A compress could be modelled with one, or better yet, two single end tracks, a three dimensional dock, and maybe a façade or photographic backdrop for the remaining structures.  It has been amusing (to experienced railroad people) to see the modelers giving "lessons' on switching in the other forums.  Hey...please don't stop!

I am working up another scenario for a whopper of a tire manufacturing plant we used to switch at Lawton, OK.  This is the stuff that makes modeling a fun and a realistic challenge.  And it has drawn out commentary from some of the best minds on these forums...that was my original intent.  I have nothing outstanding to offer, but I have found these scenarios to be a way to get "the real McCoy" to show their expertise.  Thank you to all.

I will print this out and get to work during a break or at home tonight.  But, I'm ... er ... "puzzled" by the lack of measurements for the engine and the way car.  The instructons tell how many 40 or 50' cars can fit on a spur.  

Can I assume that I can move the engine with 'n' cars attached whatever distance I might need for spotting by using the bottom track off to the right?  I.e., the nub presumably to the main line that isn't fully drawn. This can be a key move in the traditional shunting puzzle I set up in my living room.

Thanks for posting, Rob.  I could use a good headache, ah, I mean some fun today, and tomorrow, and maybe the next day.  Hey, breaks are short and few and far in between  -- unlike those cars. 

Tomlinson Run Railroad

P.S. - I like your cotton bale modelling scenario, I've got a mix of 40' and 50' cars.  The mixture of lengths just adds a little wrinkle to one's planning.

P.P.S. -- Per another Real Trains topic post, can I substitute a strong spotting horse to handle the switching instead? Just kidding! But not much. 

TomlinsonRunRR posted:

 But, I'm ... er ... "puzzled" by the lack of measurements for the engine and the way car.  

What does that have to do with the problem?

Big Jim posted:

TomlinsonRunRR posted:

 But, I'm ... er ... "puzzled" by the lack of measurements for the engine and the way car.  

What does that have to do with the problem?

In the simple spotting puzzles that I'm familiar with, the length of the engine restricts how far you can move, how many cars you can spot at a given time, and on which spur.  So, you have to factor it in.  Apparently, it doesn't matter here.  The emphasis seems to be on lining up the doors to load cars with the added challenge of the mixed boxcar lengths.  All of which result in a nice and very interesting twist on the basic spotting puzzle.

TRRR

This seemed to be deceptively simple, which suggests that I probably missed some important detail or misunderstood the rules.  I couldn't quite follow the example on how to count moves, but the following scenario uses very few moves.  I didn't read any other answers so as not to influence my solution.  My solution assumes that the train can move to the right some distance on the unlabeled track, which I call "Tr0" for the mainline.  The movements:

1. Before any train movements occur:

    A. Add a bridge from the loading dock to MT car 5 (Tr2:C5) and add a bridge from car 5 (Tr2:C5) to Hold car, car 9 (Tr1:C9). 

    B. Add a bridge from the loading dock to MT car 6 (Tr1:C6). 

    C. Load the three cars with cotton bales. Bales will pass through car 5 to get to car 9.

Result: This step takes advantage of the fact that these three cars are lined up properly from the start. Now there are only four cars that need to be loaded and they are conveniently attached to the train on what I call Track 0 (Tr0).

2. First train movement: On Tr0/mainline, disconnect the way car from the train (Tr0:C10).

The consist, reading left to right, is C10, 11, 12, 13, plus the Engine. The way car remains in its original starting position on Tr0.

3. Move the train straight ahead on the mainline until car C10 clears the switch and then back down to Tr2.

4. On Tr2, connect car C10 (the last one in the consist) with car Tr2:C6.  The consist is now, left-to-right: C1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 11, 12, 13, E.

5. Move the train forward until you clear the bottom most switch on Tr0, then back the train onto Tr0/mainline.

6. On Tr0, couple car 1 (the last car) to the way car.

7. Decouple car 6 (Tr0:C6) from car 10 (Tr0:C10).  This leaves the caboose and cars 1-6 on Tr0/mainline.

These seven cars will fit because six are  40', and the way car is less than 40'. So, 6x40' is 240' plus ~30'. We also know that Tr0 can hold the way car and engine and two 50' cars as per our starting point. So we have plenty of room to spare.

The train now has the MT cars Tr0:C10-13 in its consist.

8. Move the train straight ahead on Tr0/mainline until MT car C10 clears the switch and then back it down to Tr2 again.

9. Uncouple car 13 from the engine.  If MT cars Tr2:10, 11, 12, 13 need to be spotted "just so" near the dock for their bridge placements and loading, that will add additional uncoupling steps.  If not, the dock workers can just add the bridges where ever and load up these four empties while they remain coupled. 

Solved 1: The four empties are spotted.

10. The engine returns to Tr0 the mainline (2 moves?) and connects to car Tr0:C6.  The consist is now: way car, C1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 -- that is, it has six cars. 

Solved 2: The train leaves the mainline Tr0 with six filled cars (and the way car).

Tomlinson Run Railroad

UPDATE: My assumption was that all cars in the starting position are actually coupled to one another. That now seems false but the basic steps remain.  You just need to connect the cars but the order remains the same as I described it.  In other words, by filling up three empties first, I've removed the need to line up cars for passing bales via bridges from a car on one track to a car on another track.  TRRR

So Rob L., this post says "Are you a switchman (2)".   Was there an earlier post "Are you a switchman (1)"?  I looked but couldn't find one.  This was fun.  Is there more fun to be had?

Thanks,

Tomlinson Run RR

TomlinsonRunRR posted:

So Rob L., this post says "Are you a switchman (2)".   Was there an earlier post "Are you a switchman (1)"?  I looked but couldn't find one.  This was fun.  Is there more fun to be had?

Thanks,

Tomlinson Run RR

Are you a switchman? (1) was posted in early Feb 2017 in the Real Trains forum.  I don't want to wear this subject out, but I am working on (3) for April.

 Even though I post these on the Real Trains forum I hope the modelers are dialling into these.

Never liked switching - I run my trains on ovals without switches! 

"Whatever floats your boat!" 

TomlinsonRunRR posted:

In other words, by filling up three empties first, I've removed the need to line up cars for passing bales via bridges from a car on one track to a car on another track.  TRRR

But, that wasn't the problem.

"This seemed to be deceptively simple, which suggests that I probably missed some important detail or misunderstood the rules.  I couldn't quite follow the example on how to count moves..."

I would say that you did.

I find these mind teasers interesting.  I recently started my first operating session on my RR.  Switching is a time consuming part of running trains and I like it to a point.  But I also like running thru passenger and freight trains. 

pennsynut posted:

I find these mind teasers interesting.  I recently started my first operating session on my RR.  Switching is a time consuming part of running trains and I like it to a point.  But I also like running thru passenger and freight trains. 

Back years ago when I used to read the likes of Model Railroader and Railroad Model Craftsman, from time to time they would publish a switching problem. I never did like them as they basically were made by someone just making up some insanely inane mythical piece of "busy work" using extremely short spacing in which to work. Out in the real world, switching was never like that, at least not where I am from. 

So far, Bob's problems have been more like "real" situations. There are still some of his "local" rules that artificially increase the number of moves tallied up that are not necessarily used when switching.

I enjoyed a good switching problem, going about it in the least amount of time, which, translated into a bit more time for me to be off from work. I never liked it when a conductor did not know how to switch properly or just got out there and double switched looking for overtime. Likewise, I have no use for those busy-busy switching problems some hobbyist's would create.

In fact, they are abbreviated but very real switching events from the SW Lines of the SLSF and QA&P railroads.

Even though I have expressed hopes that the modelers would look at these problems with interest, I posted these topics on the Real Trains forum to give a glimpse to the non-railroad readers of what operations were like on lines that did a lot of local switching.  The various "personalities" of conductors and brakemen have touched on in the commentary, and it has been right on target.  Now try to imagine yourself in a "canyon of cars" where you can only see about 3 to 4 reporting marks at one time, and try to keep things straight (instead of looking down at a model with everything in sight).

When a local crew was headed out of the yard with only a wheel report and a stack of messages to do the switching at A, B, C.... it was expected of opposing trains to pick up the switch lists at each station to hand over to the outbound local.  This gave the conductor time to budget his hours at each town and plan out the trip. Crews who failed to perform this favor where remembered and often paid back down the road.  I have been marked off for 35 years now, and I am sure that things are done much differently today, but I often see comments from active train service people who wish they could have experienced these bygone days. It was a great time for myself.

Big Jim is doing a fine job of giving us the reality of it all.  This skill, or lack of it, would either gain you respect or retribution on the seniority district.

Rob, thanks for the added background that you just provided -- and the case that you so beautifully illustrated when you wrote that in the real world you couldn't look down at your model and see all the cars at once.  (Not to mention the benefits of a good working relationship with others.)

For my Inglenook switching puzzles, I sometimes create track diagrams with slots for the cars.  I can do many solutions in my head but sometimes a diagram is a big help for tracking what goes where and in what sequence when my roll of the dice creates a particularly challenging sequence.  Where diagrams ever used in the real world or was it more a process handled via arranging paper orders?  

Please keep posting.  I for one am fascinated.  As I've written elsewhere in this Forum, my grandfather "switched" careers from arranging trips for the PRR to managing barges for the Union Barge Co.  I try to imagine how he might have tracked and moved various goods to and from Pittsburgh to New Orleans via the river system.  Then of course, there were likely RR intermodal connections on both ends that I'd like to model someday.

Tomlinson Run Railroad